View Full Version : Is browning your face racist?
We're getting a lotta media coverage here about Canadian PM Trudeau browning his face years ago at a school fancy dress party. Personally I think he's a jerk, using PR to pretend he's this liberall kinda guy with a social conscience, while doing backroom deals with big business. Nobody over here gives a shit about Canadian politics, Canadians don't have much to be proud about except that they aren't American which is kinda insulting really.
Anyways I still don't understand why browning your face for some party can be called racist. It's not coloured people calling him out but white politicians.
MyNameIsTerry
20-09-19, 03:42
Charlie, it's interesting that you see it this way as a black American. The same would be said for some black Brits too, not all will agree with how today such things are jumped on to shout racist. Is it just a lazy way to attack a politcail opponent? Well, you can guarantee many don't care about what they are saying they are opposing and just see a way to attack.
From what I understand you the more sensible arguments seem to be whether it is to demean black people? Some who "black up" do in that way black people were portrayed in old media where they were dehumanised or laughed at. Beyond that it seems to be more about it just being insensitive in that black people are still facing lots if racism so you should just stay away from the issue so as not to offend.
There are also those who make false claims or see offence in things that may not be there. Cry racist on Twitter and mud sticks. So, people are wary. Even if you dressed up to support a black person it is seen as racist. For instance, one white guy in London went to a fancy dress party as Samuel L Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction. He was branded a racist, after one young black lady took offence on the tube he was on, but he didn't understand as he said he was going as character he liked in a film.
It's like how white actors can no longer play black roles (not considering any relevant points about black actors historically not being represented enough or not getting the roles they could/should). And why you can't do an oriental accent anymore or a Pakistani one, because there is a history of mocking them for it in the past.
Then there is the cultural appropriation argument I guess where views seem to range in the same way and you end up in a world of just not going there "just in case" someone gets upset. Social media will be making it far worse too as that place is full of people who take offence any anything for the sake of it.
I don't know how it goes in the US but that's what we tend to see being argued over here. Given the US has far greater concerns with racism and how it can ignite situations how would this play in your country?
I don't buy Trudeau being naïve in 2001. He's hardly the man next door and this was being seen as a problem before then. But given it surfacing now I guess it might reveal a sneak snake raking it up just to discredit him :winks:
Anyway that's just what I understand from reading about how people see it here when cases like this come up, those more affected by these issues are going to understand it better such as yourself so I don't mean any of this to come across as trying to tell anyone's grandmother how to suck eggs. I hope that's all ok.
WiredIncorrectly
20-09-19, 03:59
It's only racist if the intention of the person browning their face is doing so to be racist. Otherwise it's not.
I didn't know you was black lebonvin. I'm white, with a mixed raced brother, cousins, and Jamaican family. I've seen racism and it's nasty. It shouldn't exist, but it does and it's often perpetuated. The media pick up on something and cause a stir which just adds flames to the fire. I think it's done on purpose. Racism is just another way to oppress the black people - at least in the US. The UK has a racism problem and it's existed since black people started arriving in the UK. I'm not sure if that was inspired by the US in any way. There's a film called "This is England" that depicts racism in the UK in the early days. It's a pretty realistic representation from those times.
The propaganda from the past is still living today. I've met many racist people and I observe their reasoning ... it's always nonsensical. The UK has a problem with labeling all Muslims as terrorists and attempting to oppress the Muslims. But, it creates tension between communities which always leads to violence.
Rarely do I see the US or UK condemned for their responsibility in slavery and racism.
On a similar note. I've got dreadlocks (natural dreads, no salon or products, just some very good dread soap). Some people ask me about cultural appreciation. What they really mean is "You're not black, how come you have dreads?". It's a futile attempt to educate them on the origins of dreadlocks. I generally respond with "Don't comb your hair and it will naturally lock ... regardless of race. It's the natural way all hair grows". Argument dead. People don't realize dreadlocks were around long before Rastafarianism. Rastafarianism as a religion is only 80 years old. The fact I know all this means I appreciate the cultures that wore dreads because I've took the time to study them :)
MyNameIsTerry
20-09-19, 04:40
Just tell them they're viking locks, James :yesyes:
It's like anything else in that you get the fringes of either side being as mad as each other just as you do in politics. This Is England was a good film. How some people are just disadvantaged and get sucked in.
Ours won't be inspired by the US (at least historically but I bet this "alt right" stuff has greatly added to it in recent times) since it's going to be more a colonial thing for us. But so much of it is fear and lack of understanding which we apply to any race or origin. So many trade in it on either side. The racists doing, well, what they do to demonise. The extreme other end mislabelling and trying to shut down legitimate debate which they don't realise just pushes people more to these attitudes. Immigration debates being a good one for that.
I agree with you and Charlie. Why can't there be a positive reason like dressing as someone you admire and portraying them respectfully? Unfortunately society isn't united on this on either side of the issue so some things you do at your own risk like how people question your dreads.
Yo Sir Terence
What you wrote is kinda interesting but yous don't make a very convincing case
If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist
Didn't you Brits years ago have a TV show where singers blacked their faces and it ran for like 15 years?
I just find the whole thing kinda funny as in amusing. The Canadian opposition is the real racist party but I hope Trudeau gets his ass kicked for being such a sneaky little barsteward
I think that was called The Black and White Minstrel Show,my parents were only talking about that yesterday,from what my dad said about it,it sounded very racist.
We had the same here in Aus a few years back where a politician browned his face,him and his a rse kissers thought it was funny....the fools.
WiredIncorrectly
20-09-19, 19:25
Was the Golly Wog on the jam jar actually racist? Not sure if that's a UK thing or not.
mezzaninedoor
20-09-19, 19:57
I'm sorry I'm not going to stick up for any of this.
I think the Black & White minstrel show was racist, it was appropriation, white voices singing black songs blacked up. Though it was a thing of its time.
The Gollywog on the jam jar was a UK thing and again I think it was racist, it was a horrid comic but poking fun version of a black face.
I think blacking up or browning up in the current cultural climate is probably racist because we all know its insensitive.
What I'm unsure about is how much you can roll that back 30/40 years but it's probably still done from a position of white superiority.
Lebonvin asked - If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist -
Nope I don't think thats racist but then I wouldn't see Pierre Trudeau wearing a Samuel Jackson mask racist. Masks are different to blackface. Blackface is generally used for making fun as a stereotypical black person as part of the act - not good
MyNameIsTerry
21-09-19, 01:45
Was the Golly Wog on the jam jar actually racist? Not sure if that's a UK thing or not.
Yes, because like Blackface it's a caricature that emphasises physical features which were mocked on black people.
I think there is a lot of hypocrisy on blacking up anyway. Why? Little Britain were doing it in modern times and so were The League Of Gentlemen (remember Papa Lazarou, which differs as his lips & eyes are white but it gets tagged with these subjects for a reason) yet no one cared then and they don't care now. Didn't Ant & Dec do it too?
MyNameIsTerry
21-09-19, 01:48
Lebonvin asked - If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist -
Nope I don't think thats racist but then I wouldn't see Pierre Trudeau wearing a Samuel Jackson mask racist. Masks are different to blackface. Blackface is generally used for making fun as a stereotypical black person as part of the act - not good
Perhaps whiting up is more comparable? Eddie Murphy, the Wayans brothers, Lenny Henry, etc did it. But there is no history of oppression hence it is merely seen as comedy. But what if someone black does it to mock white people which is more what I saw Charlie asking? Maybe it has to become "a thing" before it's seen in a different light?
MyNameIsTerry
21-09-19, 01:53
Yo Sir Terence
What you wrote is kinda interesting but yous don't make a very convincing case
If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist
Didn't you Brits years ago have a TV show where singers blacked their faces and it ran for like 15 years?
I just find the whole thing kinda funny as in amusing. The Canadian opposition is the real racist party but I hope Trudeau gets his ass kicked for being such a sneaky little barsteward
Yep, as others have said about the minstrels show. We also had shows like Love Thy Neighbour. These shows don't get repeated these days. The only one we occasionally see is In Sickness and in Health but despite many complaining it's racist it's actually taking the p1ss out of the main character who is an old bigot, something his wife & daughter often point out to him. These are old shows though from a different time when racism was more open and many institutions remained racist for decades after.
Hasn't Trudeau just made an idiot of himself anyway by holding his hands up to this and then they found two more occasions which led to him replying he didn't know how many times he has done it, which suggests a far bit more maybe? :whistles: Being the liberal he will get kicked for doing unacceptable things like this as he sees himself as having higher morals.
Mezza come up with a good word there insensitive. I think better than racist. In this day and age you shouldn't do that shit lessen you offend us lol. If a guy on a alt right march did that then yeah. Behind closed doors who cares.
If we're gonna talk specifically about Trudeau, I don't understand why he needed to blacken his whole body to be Aladdin. Do you think he might got OCD or ADHD? Wouldn't surprise me. I've always suspected him of being phoney and this proves it. He only got elected because people's got find memories of his Pa.
I said this before and it never went down too well with some folk but racism ain't just white on colored. In India you got Hindus on Muslims and Sikhs who are Injuns. When I was stationed in Seoul Korea the first word you learn in Korean is the N word. Usually shouted from passing cars coz they know we'd rip their heads off if they said it in front of us. There's also black on black. A lot of my younger brothers don't like the way Africans try to pass themselves off as us by imitating our fashions coz they think they got a better chance with white and Asian chicks if they do.
I won't go into the racism I experienced in China when I went to Canton with my Chinese buddy. Chinese are the worst racists IMO but you get racists everywhere in every culture. There's probably no country on earth where there ain't any.
That's why a guy browning his body at a private party is kinda more laughable than offensive.
The answer to the original question is yes, it's offensive and taken as inappropriately insensitive and mocking.
whispershadow
21-09-19, 10:58
I dont understand how its racist, whats the difference between browning your face for a event and putting fake tan on?
i honestly dont get it
Because it can be seen as mimicking or mocking another race, Whisper - it's less the makeup itself and more what it represents.
I'm profoundly uncomfortable about Trudeau having done this; it's not the dark ages.
Exactly BlueIris. Well put.
Yes, its offensive, as it offends and we aren't far enough (or even ANY way in some places) into racial equality. Maybe in the future eras this can go back to being a 'fun' thing to make yourself look like a character, but we are too close to events and feelings at the moment.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=94819&d=1568930106
That's a good même my man
To many Americans, Canadians seem kinda goofy as in a parody of themself is that's the right word. This joker is no exception.
Dressing up as much as he does though seems kinda obsessive and creepy. Just waiting for a video to emerge with him in women's clothing. Then we'll all know the truth
To many Americans, Canadians seem kinda goofy as in a parody of themself is that's the right word. This joker is no exception.
We have Canadian members on here, so national sterotypes are best avoided. :D
That's a good même my man
To many Americans, Canadians seem kinda goofy as in a parody of themself is that's the right word. This joker is no exception.
Dressing up as much as he does though seems kinda obsessive and creepy. Just waiting for a video to emerge with him in women's clothing. Then we'll all know the truth
While I agree with you on Trudeau, what's wrong with wearing women's clothing?
We have Canadian members on here, so national sterotypes are best avoided. :D
It's okay Carys. I'm American and I love Canadians :hugs:
Yo Aunty
It's kinda odd that the Canadian members here ain't got nothing to say. They're probably too embarrassed to say nothing. It's there job to defend themself not yous
Yo Lord Terence
Hot damn my man I thought yous blocked me but looks like you couldn't resist a lil peek lol
I tried to return the complement and went downtown to a net café but couldn't get on a machine. Shouldn't of gone when school was out.
Have a nice day (or in yous case, night)
Charlie
The gig with Trudeau as I was trying to point out is that he is a typical Canadian, harmless and goofy. I don't think he's racist, he just never put any thought into what he was doing. He's like Greta Tunberg, the face of a much bigger movement with people's pulling the strings in the background. Product of a slick PR machine.
MyNameIsTerry
22-09-19, 02:06
Yo Aunty
It's kinda odd that the Canadian members here ain't got nothing to say. They're probably too embarrassed to say nothing. It's there job to defend themself not yous
Yo Lord Terence
Hot damn my man I thought yous blocked me but looks like you couldn't resist a lil peek lol
I tried to return the complement and went downtown to a net café but couldn't get on a machine. Shouldn't of gone when school was out.
Have a nice day (or in yous case, night)
Charlie
Nah, I've never blocked anyone on here and never will.
Misc tends to be quiet, the HA board is where the action is always at! Probably find most Canadians think their PM is an idiot right now...now they know how it feels :roflmao:
Thanks, you have a nice day too :yesyes:
MyNameIsTerry
22-09-19, 02:45
So, if they tell us this is wrong why are there so many mixed messages from the media? For instance...
Johnny Depp in 2013. Whilst he claim to have Native American ancestry they claim he doesn't:
https://www.reellifewithjane.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/johnny-depp-tonto-lone-ranger.jpg
Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder (2008):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/DowneyKirkLazarusTTCostume.jpg
How about our morality compass, the BBC? They were less so when they screened Come Fly With Me in 2010 where they had at least 3 characters:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/come-fly-with-me-tvshow/images/0/0c/Precious.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140610024635
And before that in 2003 with Little Britain where they had the character Desiree:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-S1zK2etOJiA/VdC4783r2HI/AAAAAAAAHKU/wuSfvFf1NAE/s1600/Bubbles%2Band%2BDes.jpg
(don't worry, they are blokes in suits...not sure about the one in the middle though :roflmao:)
And before that we again have the BBC with The League Of Gentlemen running 1999-2003 with the character Papa Lazarou that I mentioned earlier. This character also appeared in the film (2005), the Christmas Special 2000 and 2017 anniversary special:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/TheLeagueOfGentlemen-PapaLazarou.jpg
Back to Hollywood though we have Gemma Arterton in Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time in 2010:
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/11900000/Gemma-Arterton-Tamina-prince-of-persia-the-sands-of-time-11945437-961-1450.jpg
So, it seems like there is a lot of hypocrisy about over blackface and brownface.
Yo Earl. of Terencia
Such hostility in you my man. And using them emoji things is the refuge of losers.
Are you getting enough sleep? Theirs some good info on this site about insomnia.
Are you getting enough sunlight? Lack of sunlight can make you SAD.
Take care
Charlie
I know a lot of Canadian’s,work with 3 people and I can say that talking too them,they couldn’t give a rats a r se about his antics.Maybe the Canadian members on here do not want too get involved.
It's considered racist now thanks to political correctness but it never used to be.
Nice one Phil that's what I been trying to say but you put it real good
Yo Earl. of Terencia
Such hostility in you my man. And using them emoji things is the refuge of losers.
Are you getting enough sleep? Theirs some good info on this site about insomnia.
Are you getting enough sunlight? Lack of sunlight can make you SAD.
Take care
Charlie
Hostility from Terry, are you for real ? He is literally the most patient and unhostile person on this forum, infact sometimes (in my opinion) way too patient and understanding with some people.
By the way, I will make comment about national stereotypes if I wish to - politicians they are fair game but I don't like hearing comments about a whole race of people.
I think it is only racist if the intention was to mock, if that wasn't the intention then it just becomes insensitive and inappropriate - which covers Trudeau here. I also think this is a lazy reason to jump on a politician and is really no different from actors 'whiteing up' or 'blacking up' as part of playing a character. However the question was 'is it offensive', and yes, if it offends a group then yes it is.
I wonder how many people were tasked with the job of trawling through archives to find something to discredit Trudeau...Anything to cause an "outrage".It's very easy to cause an outrage now-people are queueing up to be outraged. But it's a very different matter when the group affected are genuinely offended and it's not all about discrediting a politician.
Hi Cary
Yeah I'm for real except when the voices tell me otherwise.
Terry's a decent chap, anyone can see that. I don't bear him any ill will
It's just that these political topics get kinda boring without inflammatory remarks to carry them along. Otherwise you just get the same three or four people's agreeing with each other.
What these topics are doing on a mental forum I don't worked out yet.
OK, but 'hostile', how so ?
It's good that people can discuss other things rather than focusing on their mental health issues all the time.
It's not compulsory to try to wind people up just to make discussions more "interesting" though.
It's good that people can discuss other things rather than focusing on their mental health issues all the time.
It's not compulsory to try to wind people up just to make discussions more "interesting" though.
Agreed. I think people on here are wound up and anxious enough. There are plenty of political forums out there just rife with controversy if you need more in your life. If it's legitimately how you feel, that's one thing, but don't just do it for shits and giggles, otherwise, doesn't that cross into troll behavior?
MyNameIsTerry
23-09-19, 01:56
Thanks Carys, Pulisa and Vee. I agree, there is a reason I wouldn't talk about these subjects in more general forums because those places attract some very unpleasant people who just want to wallow in negativity, fight and vent anger on others. They can be bullying echo chambers too. A few threads on here amongst people who understand the impacts of their words makes for a friendly exchange and one I know I learn from.
I'm happy to discuss things with anyone but anything more personal will just get ignored.
Hi Auntsy
Still no sign of your Canadian buddies flocking here to say We ain't really like that.
Your a schoolmistress right? Congratulations for choosing a socially good profession. If you was to work in an office, you'd be the woman all the menfolk avoided for fear of saying hello and getting reported for sexual harassment.
I can see yous and your multiethnic students standing round a campfire singing Cumbaya and We are the World. You have created an idealist kinda world the way it should be.
Unfortunately the world I live in ain't like that and I'm decent enough not to give any details to avoid upsetting people's here or bringing them down to my level. And we all know that self pity does a lotta harm to recovery from depressive illness.
Seems a shame this discussion if it can be called that has degeneration to personal disagreement on matters not connected to the title topic.
Have a nice day. Don't forget to grade them homework assignments. Teaching must be tough. Yous can't switch off from the job when you get home and don't get paid overtime. I respect teachers even though I got bad memories of some.
Charlie
As always Charlie, you are a master of thinly veiled insults.
Have a nice day!:emot-wave:
Vee
I don't think that was in the least bit veiled, Antsy, more like a direct personal attack.
MyNameIsTerry
23-09-19, 05:27
[Sneaks into the thread to pop an apple on Vee's desk to show appreciation]Being a teacher I expect you've heard enough in your time so these would be marked must try harder in red ink :winks:
I don't think that was in the least bit veiled, Antsy, more like a direct personal attack.
well, they don’t let us use the paddle or the ruler anymore, BlueIris ;)
[Sneaks into the thread to pop an apple on Vee's desk to show appreciation]Being a teacher I expect you've heard enough in your time so these would be marked must try harder in red ink :winks:
Thanks, Terry
MyNameIsTerry
23-09-19, 05:40
well, they don’t let us use the paddle or the ruler anymore, BlueIris ;)We had the slipper too. Nowadays we have them in memory foam which would be interesting if they just wrapped around your buttocks :roflmao:
Hey Vee, was that aimed at you ? - see I thought that personal attack was aimed at me LOL. Hard to know isn't it when its directed to 'Aunty' and we are both teachers (well, I haven't taught for a few years actually but WAS one). Yep, I guess it was you with your 'Canadian Buddies'. Well glad thats sorted....good to know who was being trolled in a direct set of personal insults. :roflmao:I love people who stand up for what is right. :bighug1:
(Note - Terry is on his 'memory foam slipper being bottom twacked' dream AGAIN)
I am closing this thread as it has descended into personal insults. Please note that this will not be tolerated.
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