View Full Version : Anxious about what???
Hi guys
I know I suffer with anxiety and mild depression, and have done so for at least 20 years. I get all the usual anxiety symptoms when it strikes - tight chest, headaches, muscle spasms, wonky eyesight, trembling, the full hideous works! The thing is, I don't know what I'm anxious about and never have. I can be fine for days, then all of a sudden I don't feel like I can cope. I keep it to myself but I become a complete emotional wreck, and I never know why - I just can't pinpoint a reason/cause.
My life is nothing special but I have no real worries. My health is good for late 40s, sleep ok, work pays the bill, and I'm in a stable, longterm relationship.
I exercise regularly, don't smoke, and only drink moderately at weekends.
Yet despite ticking all these 'happy and healthy' boxes, my emotions just keep crashing. I can live with it, I get by, and it can be a struggle, but I just wish I knew why it happens.
I've tried meds (sticking plaster) and talking therapy (helpful at the time), but nothing changes longterm. I'm OK for a bit, go though the nightmare, then chill for a bit.
Anxiety is a fear of something, but in my case, I don't know what I'm scared of.
Does this ring true for anyone else - being utterly on edge but never knowing why?
Witsend
Mine is the same just appears from no where but when i look back on the day i dont know what I was anxious about
Some for us are just anxious. My parents remember me being anxious even at 3 and 4 years of age.
thats why I stay on meds...I don’t ever expect mine to fully go away.
ankietyjoe
14-10-19, 08:25
Could be diet.
Anxiety is caused by stress, stress can be anything, even if it goes unnoticed.
If your body doesn't like something you're eating, then it can easily cause long term anxiety.
The main culprit is often bread/pasta/gluten/refined sugars.
Anxiety can simply be a fear of fear. And fearing the symptoms can be enough to bring them on.
I sometimes think that some people are just naturally wired that way prone to anxiety , depression and need the kick of antidepressants .
I feel like one of those people.
ankietyjoe
14-10-19, 23:29
I sometimes think that some people are just naturally wired that way prone to anxiety , depression and need the kick of antidepressants .
I feel like one of those people.
There is no evidence to suggest that this is true, and anxiety/depression is absent in all isolated communities.
It's when Western diet/lifestyle is introduced that these problems occur because our habits are frankly terrible.
I’m gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, Joe. I do agree that environmental factors contribute a lot, I know in my family mental illness has gone back several generations, and not all of my family is Western either.
MyNameIsTerry
15-10-19, 02:06
I’m gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, Joe. I do agree that environmental factors contribute a lot, I know in my family mental illness has gone back several generations, and not all of my family is Western either.
Agreed. There are genes that can be passed on and there are windows for this however these genes do need to be activated (a useful offshoot for us from the epigenetic research into cancers) so it's a bit of both really.
There is no clear answer though, science hasn't got there yet. They don't fully understand stress impacts on the young or at least they didn't last time I was delving into epigenetics about this issue. But the interesting thing about this is that if a gene can be activated (on position) the reverse is also true (off position) and there have been studies of children to show shifting methylation does this both ways...which takes us back around into "everybody is right" because diet, environment, confidence & self esteem, etc are all connected to this.
Mental health is known now but since it's part of the human condition is will have been around forever in some way. When you read Dr Claire Weekes you can see how some of it is what people used to tell others hundreds & thousands of years ago about dealing with stress. And PTSD is a relatively recent label (adapted due to recent wars through several labels e.g. shell shock) but unless humans worked in a different way back then how could shock not exist whether it was a warrior or those they attacked?
I'm with Darksky when it comes to GAD. Whilst it is a wide ranging disorder than can mimic elements of many others it's something that just seems to be always there whether there are triggers or not. This makes it even more important to learn not to respond to them but it's very hard work because it's relentless and a blight on every day for many.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 08:26
This is a causality/correlation issue.
If a family has mental illness passing through generations then it's going to be habits/diets passed on that are the root cause of the anxiety rather than a genetic predisposition for anxiety.
Terry's comment about gene's being expressed is important too. Understanding that the core of anxiety is the fight or flight response, and that response is natural is a key part of understanding this too. Every single person on the planet is hard wired to have an anxiety response, but this response is only triggered given sufficient stress triggers.
Delving even deeper, we need to look at what stress actually is. For example -
Sitting indoors all day, is stress.
Not seeing nature, living in built up areas, is stress.
Eating intensively farmed, processed foods, is stress.
Staying up for hours after sunset, is stress.
Working long hours, is stress.
Drinking alcohol, is stress.
Eating too many refined carbs, is stress...
This list goes on, but also goes unnoticed in day to day life because we feel it's all normal, but it's not. Going back to my reference of isolated cultures. If you go and live in the forest with a tribe of 'natives', you will see zero mental health issues. This has been recorded time and time again all across the globe. What we perceive as a normal way of living is actually relatively new, starting around the time of the industrial revolution. It's when people's lives started to move indoors and food started to be bought from factories rather than picked from a field or bush. This has massively accelerated in the last 2-3 generations since the 'Standard American Diet' was introduced in the 60s.
PTSD related mental health issues aren't the same as GAD issues that people here are more often dealing with. PTSD is a 'normal' response to trauma. 95% of people here though are stressed about simply existing, and the idea that it's just the way some people are is wrong. It's the way we live that's the problem, not the way we're wired.
According to my sister there are no mental health issues with people in Cape Verde.....but those who are a bit different are hidden away and referred to as "deficient".
Gotta disagree with Joe. Diet my ass
All the anxiety caused in the Middle East cozza kebabs?
According to my sister there are no mental health issues with people in Cape Verde.....but those who are a bit different are hidden away and referred to as "deficient".
Exactly, Pulisa - from what I've read, it's simply that more isolated, non-Westernised communities don't always have the same concept we do of mental health problems, and that people who suffer actually suffer (and are treated) far worse. You only have to read the stories of exorcisms or people being chained up for years on end, it can be terrifying.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 09:40
Exactly, Pulisa - from what I've read, it's simply that more isolated, non-Westernised communities don't always have the same concept we do of mental health problems, and that people who suffer actually suffer (and are treated) far worse. You only have to read the stories of exorcisms or people being chained up for years on end, it can be terrifying.
This is ridiculously rare, and once looked into almost always has a chemical cause, or trauma. As I've mentioned, trauma is a different kind of mental health issue.
It surprises me that there is so much resistance to the idea that you're NOT hard wired for anxiety and it's NOT a normal way of being for the vast majority of the population. The idea that your lifestyle is causing you stress means that you actually have control over it.
On another note, I have a friend who attended and eventually helped run a meditation retreat in Thailand where people were allowed to go and reconnect with themselves. It's basically a simple life, food from the local forest and the retreats farm, early starts, early to bed, lots of meditation and lots of exercise. Their success rate in treating anxiety and depression has be virtually 100% for over 40 years. The issue is, this works over months, not days.
Honestly, you'd think I was selling snake oil.
And no, it's not THE kebab, it's the layers of subtle stress. I think I've made that point several times.
Joe, serious question: do you have any references to back this up? I'd be happy to be proven wrong here since it's not something I've researched in any detail beyond BBC3 documentaries, but I'd still like to see evidence.
This topic come up on another forum
https://revivre.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22478
A lot is stuff talked about but diet ain't one of them
Born anxious
Anxious parents
Alkie parent
Sex or violent abuse as kid
Broken family
Traumatic events to person
Witnessing a tragedy
Poverty and low status compare to your peers
Crap environment
Bereavement
After long illness
Gust of wind
Anything can set this shit off. It ain't the event it's how yous react to it. Great if you get a positive reaction. Some folk is just destined to suffer and we are part of that group
I respect Joe's stuff here he's one of the gurus but he never knew that pregabalin was used for anxiety which left me a bit gobsmacked
Problem with the diet theory is that all folk who live off the same crap food as me will get anxiety but I know that ain't the case
I'm sure there is chow what makes anxiety worse tho cozza all the chemicals in it
This topic come up on another forum
https://revivre.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22478
A lot is stuff talked about but diet ain't one of them
Born anxious
Anxious parents
Alkie parent
Sex or violent abuse as kid
Broken family
Traumatic events to person
Witnessing a tragedy
Poverty and low status compare to your peers
Crap environment
Bereavement
After long illness
Gust of wind
Anything can set this shit off. It ain't the event it's how yous react to it. Great if you get a positive reaction. Some folk is just destined to suffer and we are part of that group
Merci mon ami,comment vas-tu :D
This is ridiculously rare, and once looked into almost always has a chemical cause, or trauma. As I've mentioned, trauma is a different kind of mental health issue.
It surprises me that there is so much resistance to the idea that you're NOT hard wired for anxiety and it's NOT a normal way of being for the vast majority of the population. The idea that your lifestyle is causing you stress means that you actually have control over it.
On another note, I have a friend who attended and eventually helped run a meditation retreat in Thailand where people were allowed to go and reconnect with themselves. It's basically a simple life, food from the local forest and the retreats farm, early starts, early to bed, lots of meditation and lots of exercise. Their success rate in treating anxiety and depression has be virtually 100% for over 40 years. The issue is, this works over months, not days.
Honestly, you'd think I was selling snake oil.
And no, it's not THE kebab, it's the layers of subtle stress. I think I've made that point several times.
I'd be stressed out having to shell out all that money to go to a retreat for months on end though. It's not really a practical solution particularly if you have commitments.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 14:13
Joe, serious question: do you have any references to back this up? I'd be happy to be proven wrong here since it's not something I've researched in any detail beyond BBC3 documentaries, but I'd still like to see evidence.
It's just information I've picked up over the years. When I first had anxiety I got a course of CBT from the GP which helped, but then after that it was anti depressants or nothing. I wanted to know why this was happening to me.
And this is the bit that's important...why? Are we really trying to say that vast percentages of the people alive today are just 'destined' to have anxiety because of genetics, or is it more likely that it's what we're doing that's causing the issues? It has taken a little over one or two human lifespans to completely change the way we live and interface with the planet we live on. Before that not much really changed for thousands of years. You can look all this stuff up!
This topic come up on another forum
https://revivre.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22478
A lot is stuff talked about but diet ain't one of them
Born anxious
Anxious parents
Alkie parent
Sex or violent abuse as kid
Broken family
Traumatic events to person
Witnessing a tragedy
Poverty and low status compare to your peers
Crap environment
Bereavement
After long illness
Gust of wind
Anything can set this shit off. It ain't the event it's how yous react to it. Great if you get a positive reaction. Some folk is just destined to suffer and we are part of that group
No, some people are not destined to suffer, and most of what you're listing there is trauma, which is not the same as GAD.
I respect Joe's stuff here he's one of the gurus but he never knew that pregabalin was used for anxiety which left me a bit gobsmacked
Why would I know? :shrug:
I've never taken anti depressants and never will, it's not the way I choose to deal with this. As a side note I am in regular contact with 2 psychiatrists and 3 psychotherapists, the team that look after my partner who has complex PTSD and DID. Out of those 5 people, 4 of them claim that anti depressants have very little effect on long term recovery, although can be used as a crutch whilst the real work is done.
I'd be stressed out having to shell out all that money to go to a retreat for months on end though. It's not really a practical solution particularly if you have commitments.
That's why I said 'the problem is'. However, that issue doesn't negate the effectiveness of the treatment, and surely further highlights the issue with the way we have to live these days?
So, no evidence of people in more remote communities suffering from lower rates of mental health problems?
Sorry if this seems confrontational; I don't doubt that the conventional western lifestyle has a part to play in making things worse, but everything I've seen (from a very brief look, admittedly) suggests that smaller, more remote communities actually suffer from higher levels of mental ill-health.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 14:31
I'm not talking about remote communities that still live the way we do, I'm talking about those that live off the land, the tribal forest dwellers etc.
All I'm doing is passing on information I've learned over the years, as somebody who doesn't suffer from panic any more, and as somebody who sometimes experiences anxiety and assesses the triggers.
If I don't have evidence, it's because I didn't think to write down my sources as I went along my journey the last ten years.
If I could urge you to research two things, the first would be the relationship between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. This will illustrate how what we do and how we live can cause anxiety and stress to build up over the years. The second would be the relationship between what we eat, how that affects our gut, and how our gut health can affect our mental health. There is plenty of information out there.
Joe, I do believe you, however, I think it's one part of a bigger puzzle. The honest truth is that the communities you describe are so rare these days that their rates of mental illness haven't been adequately reported.
This is very different from the retreats you describe.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 14:43
Joe, I do believe you, however, I think it's one part of a bigger puzzle. The honest truth is that the communities you describe are so rare these days that their rates of mental illness haven't been adequately reported.
This is very different from the retreats you describe.
The retreats mimic that lifestyle, and that's the point of them. The retreats aren't creating an unnatural state, they are recreating the way that people used to live...most of the time. Get up, farm, work, eat, shit it's dark....sleep. Etc.
Now, something else to consider here too. Your body is basically a system of mental and hormonal habits. Your entire system adapts to its environment. When people arrive at the situation where they have an anxiety disorder, it's most likely that it took them months or years to get there, the issue being very few see it coming. Because busy and tired is 'normal'...right?
What's required is a complete change in not only what we do and how we think, but also the requirement is to do that for a very long time. It's not enough to eat veg for three days and proclaim it ineffective. If you were 3 stone overweight, you would accept that it would probably take you a year or more to lose that weight properly, and get fit again. However, when it comes to mental health, most people try something for a couple of days and then just assume it doesn't work. My take on that is anxiety creates a sense of urgency that requires an immediate fix, but the real magic comes with acceptance. That allows you the breathing space to persist with the long term work.
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 14:57
Acceptance-do you mean the same as CLAIRE Weekes puts forward?
And in the western world, we look down or disagree with anxiety/ too much adrenaline?
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 15:00
I haven't read the Claire Weekes books, but I would imagine she promotes the same theory.
Accepting your anxiety and not trying to run from it or elevate it's status. When you have a panic attack, just let it be, let it happen. It will end, because it always does etc.
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 15:02
I don’t suffer with panic attacks but I have GAD so it’s always here and I find it very uncomfortable. Did you have that and you worked on it/overcome it?
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 15:03
Just feeling ok edge all the time, affecting sleep, cannot relax, jittery, shaking
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 15:03
Would making these symptoms my friend help me- I just ignore them all day but they are still there
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 15:07
Would making these symptoms my friend help me- I just ignore them all day but they are still there
You can try that, it's something that I've seen suggested before. The idea being the system in your body that's causing you symptoms is ironically the one that's designed to keep you safe. You could talk to it, tell it you don't need it right now, but thank you..
It's best to use layers of self help. Meditation, yoga, walks in the park, good diet, no booze, enough sleep. Whatever works for you.
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 15:10
Thank you 😊
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 15:16
Would you say you have learnt to live with it?
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 15:18
I learned to live with it so well it's barely there any more. Took about 2-3 years. If I get mega stressed it comes back hard, but I can shake it off in a matter of days or weeks now. I don't have panic attacks any more, at all.
I still feel a little anxiety from time to time, but I don't pay any attention to it. Anxiety IS part of normal life, it's just our reaction to it that becomes a problem and can turn into an anxiety disorder.
It's a holistic approach that works best.
Mrsmitchell1984
15-10-19, 16:06
That gives me hope thank you. How do you shake it off - do you mean because you have accepted it as normal life- that is naturally goes again.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 17:28
Yes. I learned over the years that certain situations will provoke anxiety (based on stress levels) and when it happens I just ignore it. If it gets really bad I'll sit down, chill out and wait for it to go. Then when it's gone I don't dwell on it at all, I just carry on as usual. Once it's in the past, I never think about it again.
You're a fortunate man, Joe. Despite what you are going to say, it's not that simple for me and my family. Put autism into the equation with severe anxiety and you're in trouble. It's just a question of getting through the days as best you can trying to aim for a lower level of anxiety.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 17:55
You're a fortunate man, Joe. Despite what you are going to say, it's not that simple for me and my family. Put autism into the equation with severe anxiety and you're in trouble. It's just a question of getting through the days as best you can trying to aim for a lower level of anxiety.
I was never fortunate Pulisa. I have had tumultuous shit thrown my way over the last decade, and it's pretty common knowledge that I'm the carer for my partner who has DID (severe schizophrenia). Several times a week I watch her transform into a different person and/or break down in tears, often in front of our children.
There is nothing fortunate about my situation, at all. It takes effort, every day.
I know all about effort, Joe.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 18:03
I know you do, but I think it's bad form to belittle other people's situation and call them 'fortunate' simply because they have found a way to deal. There was no fortune, nothing came to me, I wasn't 'lucky'. I worked my ass of to not be sick any more. I did that whilst dealing with a £150k legal battle AND watching her die (she died for nearly a minute during childbirth...one of the trauma sources) and then looking after her for the last 5 years. Those 5 years were when I got myself better, so no. Not fortunate at all.
I meant of course that you are fortunate in finding a way to manage your anxiety despite your home situation.
This is a causality/correlation issue.
Sitting indoors all day, is stress.
Not seeing nature, living in built up areas, is stress.
Eating intensively farmed, processed foods, is stress.
Staying up for hours after sunset, is stress.
Working long hours, is stress.
Drinking alcohol, is stress.
Eating too many refined carbs, is stress...
So how come lots of other people living this unhealthy life style doesn’t suffer from any mental health condition?
My auntie grew up on a small farm so food was pretty much organic and not processed at all, yet she ended up so mentally ill she hanged herself?
I don’t know there is an element of nurture but I believe it’s also nature.
ankietyjoe
15-10-19, 22:08
So how come lots of other people living this unhealthy life style doesn’t suffer from any mental health condition?
My auntie grew up on a small farm so food was pretty much organic and not processed at all, yet she ended up so mentally ill she hanged herself?
I don’t know there is an element of nurture but I believe it’s also nature.
I use the word holistic a lot. It's not JUST about food. It's layers and layers of things.
Maybe she was abused, maybe she was lonely, I have no idea. Aren't depression rates notoriously high in farming?
Sorry Joe but your diet theory ain't gone down too well
So we should all eat hay n nuts and hope we doesnt get trauma
Too many gaps in your knowledge my man
Jeez Joe what exactly do you read
You never read Claire Weekes? How is that possible. She's the real guru. What she said 60 year ago still hold good.
I'll let you off for the pregabalin gig altho it's listed as a mental medication here with ADs benzos and all that stuff
Take a trip to the Amazon and research the tribes there if yous can find one what don't got traumatized by intruders
MyNameIsTerry
16-10-19, 01:58
I believe diet is a factor just as lack of exercise, not developing enough confidence & self esteem in development years, environment, stress levels, etc all are . There are many reasons. For the same reasons keta mentioned diet is only one element simply because you can put the people on the same diets and the outcome can be no one gets anxiety, they all do or it's mixed.
With the genetic element it is about having a gene passed along by a parent but it is passed switched to the off position. Since methylation is going on throughout the day with tons of processes it can be influenced into a state where some genes can be activated. So, you put someone into a very stressful position (say health issues with a loved one) and it can be enough to cause a normal methylation process to react to it and a gene is activated. The same can be said for many conditions can't it? Cancer drugs have been developed to switch off genetic causes to reverse the process.
That's what I took from reading about it a couple of years ago now but it's still an ongoing area of research. If it wasn't for cancer research it wouldn't even be around as mental health is lower priority.
I was 30 when my anxiety started. As Joe mentioned earlier it crept up for about a year prior but I wasn't aware of mental health enough to understand the signs. The one day I just sat at my desk and everything turned to a fog and I was in & out of the toilets for hours unable to sit at my desk due to nausea. Prior to this I lived on stress and loved it. I happily worked 16 hour days and up to 70 hours overtime in a month to reach targets as I felt like I was achieving something...then bang and that switch was flipped on me and this all started.
What I do find interesting in my case is that my brother has worked very hard too and yet no problems. He drank far more than me too. But in between our births my dad had his bout of depression. That may mean a link but regardless it's how I deal with it and no reflection on my dad (who cured his depression over 40 years ago with no relapse).
Modern life has it's role in this but considering how hard life was pre industrial revolution I would expect mental health was around long before it. I agree we haven't adapted because it has been a very short in human evolution (technology alone over the last few decades) but the pressure to feed your family predates it. And we always have to consider we have a big medical book now as opposed to back then.
Even now admitting you have a problem can mean social stigma and plenty of ignorance still exists in societies where they are educating us about it let alone the parts of the modern world where they are lucky to have medical support at all. Going back to my dad's days of depression he would have faced public scorn for what was seen as weakness. The more the culture has narrow definitions of men & women suffering in silence is going to be more likely. Religion plays it's part too with higher moral standards that class with intrusive thoughts as well as the whole "men feed their families" stuff.
I know you do, but I think it's bad form to belittle other people's situation and call them 'fortunate' simply because they have found a way to deal. There was no fortune, nothing came to me, I wasn't 'lucky'. I worked my ass of to not be sick any more. I did that whilst dealing with a £150k legal battle AND watching her die (she died for nearly a minute during childbirth...one of the trauma sources) and then looking after her for the last 5 years. Those 5 years were when I got myself better, so no. Not fortunate at all.
That's terrible Joe.
So you got a lotta dosh. Did you use it to buy nuts n raisins?
Odd how IanPanic don't waded into this argument. Your both old timers. I guess yous fell out along the. way.
Your halo is vapourizing my man
Please tell us something helpful.
I know you do, but I think it's bad form to belittle other people's situation and call them 'fortunate' simply because they have found a way to deal. There was no fortune, nothing came to me, I wasn't 'lucky'. I worked my ass of to not be sick any more. I did that whilst dealing with a £150k legal battle AND watching her die (she died for nearly a minute during childbirth...one of the trauma sources) and then looking after her for the last 5 years. Those 5 years were when I got myself better, so no. Not fortunate at all.
Thanks for making us feel even more a failure coza not being able to do the same
If you really wanna say something useful then tell us how yous done it
Otherwise follow the Bible's advise and forever hold your peace
ok I got it Joseph
I read some old posts of yous and can see where your coming from
Gut = second brain
Eat the wrong chow and gut gets impaired making yous anxious
Very logical
But what if you was born with impaired gut or are all folk born 100% fine and dandy
ankietyjoe
16-10-19, 08:08
Otherwise follow the Bible's advise and forever hold your peace
Now I know you're trolling.
And as for gaps in my knowledge, I have never claimed to know everything. There are entire sections of this forums that I don't post in because my knowledge isn't sufficient to offer any meaningful advice. And as for ME needing to show evidence of the validity of my advice, out of the two of us....who is functioning better?
As somebody who advocates the writings in the Bible, perhaps a little faith is necessary.....from somebody who was in a very bad place and now isn't.
Just a thought.
I can see how a good diet helps with general health but I think there is a danger of veering into orthorexia territory if too much emphasis is placed on the nutritional aspect.
Especially with vulnerable people desperate for a cure to their severe and unrelenting anxiety.
I think it's ok to accept that some people will always have an anxiety disorder no matter what they do, how much they exercise or what food they eat. And some people will find their own cure but that cure won't necessarily work for everyone. And that's ok too.
I can see how a good diet helps with general health but I think there is a danger of veering into orthorexia territory if too much emphasis is placed on the nutritional aspect.
Especially with vulnerable people desperate for a cure to their severe and unrelenting anxiety.
I think it's ok to accept that some people will always have an anxiety disorder no matter what they do, how much they exercise or what food they eat. And some people will find their own cure but that cure won't necessarily work for everyone. And that's ok too.
I think you're absolutely right, Pulisa. We're not even close to understanding the finer details of anxiety disorders, and to assume that there's one single fix is a gross oversimplification. In the end, all any of us can ever do is take a look at what's out there, try whatever we reasonably can and keep on learning.
Now I know you're trolling.
And as for gaps in my knowledge, I have never claimed to know everything. There are entire sections of this forums that I don't post in because my knowledge isn't sufficient to offer any meaningful advice. And as for ME needing to show evidence of the validity of my advice, out of the two of us....who is functioning better?
As somebody who advocates the writings in the Bible, perhaps a little faith is necessary.....from somebody who was in a very bad place and now isn't.
Just a thought.
Yep just pa-trolling
Nobody ain't complaining about gaps in your knowledge. It's cozza you spouting a crackpot theory
Why won't tell us how you conquered your anxiety? If you don't got anxiety now, what is you doing on this forum? Lessen it's to help folk which you sure ain't doing.
You can't remember the stuff you read coz you never made notes? "Comme les poulets ont des dents" as theys say back home. Don't you got any of them oracle books lying around at home?
I remember the titles or name of the authors of books I read years ago. And I got a crap memory but when I focus I hot damn focus.
Your a rich man Joseph. If you really care about folk, then please send me a food package with all the seeds, nuts, hay and raisins I need to make my gut good again and get rid of anxiety. I'll pm you an address
but something tells me you won't be agreeable on that gig.
By the way, the Bible don't say nothing about forever hold your peace. Just another test of your lack of knowledge.
Do us all a favour Joseph and post something useful or helpful. Mosta your posts to other folk art kinda grumpy and impatient
Just a thought
Charlie
ankietyjoe
16-10-19, 09:50
What makes you think I'm rich? I'm the opposite of rich. If you're referring to my legal battle, that was £150k I LOST due to a lawyer fvcking me over in 2006, which I'm still paying for.
Furthermore, you constantly commenting on 'nuts and seeds' is cherry picking one single aspect of my advice to reinforce your own belief that all I'm suggesting is change your diet. I have said over and over again that anxiety is caused by multiple layers of stress, not just eating nuts and seeds.
If you don't find my advice useful, then don't follow it. Frankly I couldn't care less, and don't feel that I need to write down and record everything I read over the years. I'd much rather help the people who do want to accept change in their life than bicker with people who have accepted their fate.
If you want to keep doing the things you've always done and stay sick, good luck to you. :doh:
What's happening here (in my opinion) is that people are focusing on one single suggestion, or another single suggestion.
'I've tried exercising and it doesn't work'.
'I've tried changing my diet and it doesn't work'.
Each time, trying something for a week or two and then proclaiming it ineffective. The odd thing is, they go back to doing what they did before, which also clearly isn't working.
Something Terry mentioned is the difference in results for people with similar life experiences. Something I talk about a lot is not only your physical and dietary habits, but also your mental ones. It's most likely that the people who recover from anxiety/depression, are the ones you practice thinking about it differently. The perfect example here is the victim mentality that I see all the time, especially in this thread. If there's one thing I can guarantee, if you believe that you are destined to be anxious, you will be.
"Victim mentality" is a phrase that gets used a lot by people who subscribe to the "bootstrap mentality". It's not a question of believing you're destined to be anxious, it's about believing you might be more prone to anxiety than most people.
Also, if you're going to make claims that you say are more than anecdotal, it's polite to back them up with figures so people can make up their own minds.
This is getting kinda personal Giuseppe
I forgive you
I'll do the honorable gig and retire from this shred and that takes guts lol. You should do the same my man
I'll skip any posts from yous in future coz I know they won't have nothing useful to say.
Have a nice day
Charlie
ankietyjoe
16-10-19, 10:05
"Victim mentality" is a phrase that gets used a lot by people who subscribe to the "bootstrap mentality". It's not a question of believing you're destined to be anxious, it's about believing you might be more prone to anxiety than most people.
Also, if you're going to make claims that you say are more than anecdotal, it's polite to back them up with figures so people can make up their own minds.
But why is it that I have to back up my advice with stats and figures? Who here backs up advice with stats and figures? Take my advice or leave it, it's up to you surely?
This is getting kinda personal Giuseppe
I forgive you
I'll do the honorable gig and retire from this shred and that takes guts lol. You should do the same my man
I'll skip any posts from yous in future coz I know they won't have nothing useful to say.
Have a nice day
Charlie
I believe that's wise
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332460-500-how-what-you-eat-directly-influences-your-mental-health/
unfortunately this is pay-walled. But I think there is a fair amount of evidence that what you eat effects mental health. But of course it’s a hugely complex issue, so just because something is statistically significant, doesn’t mean it will work for the individual.
I’m picking up fag ends here, BTW. I’ve only just discovered this thread. BI am I trolling you? Xxx
ankietyjoe
16-10-19, 10:31
"Victim mentality" is a phrase that gets used a lot by people who subscribe to the "bootstrap mentality". It's not a question of believing you're destined to be anxious, it's about believing you might be more prone to anxiety than most people.
Sorry I missed this bit.
Yes I totally agree that some people can be more prone to anxiety, but that's not the same as accepting it'll always be there, because it doesn't have to be.
Fundamentally anxiety is caused by stress, period. The key is finding the things that stress YOU.
We know somebody local who used to run marathons all the time. She would run 50-100 miles a week. She was a proud home owner, working many hours a week to buy expensive things that she hung on walls with the price tag still attached. She hired me to paint her house (because you know, painter/decorators are all rich), but the house didn't need painting. She just wanted some expensive farrow and ball paint on her walls. About 2 years later we saw her in the supermarket, and she had aged about 15 years and had lost a ton of weight. We chatted to her and discovered that her physical and mental health had collapsed due to 'life commitments'. My point here is that it's possible that you (and anybody else) are doing things that you think are good for you, and you even want to do...but they might not be.
I'm just suggesting that you audit your own life and remove stress as much as possible. Despite me not having sources written down, I absolutely know we are not designed to live the life we are currently living, and the evidence is out there if you go and look for it.
When I use the term 'victim mentality', that doesn't mean I subscribe to the 'bootstrap mentality'. I'm simply asking you not to keep suggesting to yourself that your anxiety is inevitable. There is some value in the idea that you can pull yourself together, but I think it's better to have self compassion and give yourself the space to recover.
I will say Joe,keeping up with the Jone’s is bound to eventually brake you down and fall in a heap.
Hang on there! I know decorators earn a good quid.:winks:
Do you read Carl Jung!
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332460-500-how-what-you-eat-directly-influences-your-mental-health/
unfortunately this is pay-walled. But I think there is a fair amount of evidence that what you eat effects mental health. But of course it’s a hugely complex issue, so just because something is statistically significant, doesn’t mean it will work for the individual.
I’m picking up fag ends here, BTW. I’ve only just discovered this thread. BI am I trolling you? Xxx
Not trolling, Jojo, I'm a skeptic, not a cynic. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
ankietyjoe
16-10-19, 11:07
I will say Joe,keeping up with the Jone’s is bound to eventually brake you down and fall in a heap.
Hang on there! I know decorators earn a good quid.:winks:
Do you read Carl Jung!
Decorating was something I was doing at the time, but in this country it's hard to make ends meet doing that for a living.
I have read some Carl Jung, but my personal take on him is that he's prone to over complication and over analysis. I think historically the fields of psychotherapy and psychiatry have focused too much on analysis of feelings. Whilst it might be a good idea to have an awareness of the source, constant analysis is (in my opinion) fruitless, as your subconscious is being forced to re-live triggers that are no longer occurring. I think the era of Freud and Jung was necessary to get to the point where we are today, but a lot of their philosophy is being dropped in favour of simpler, more practical therapies.
Not trolling, Jojo, I'm a skeptic, not a cynic. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
You've got nothing to lose by focussing only on your calm for a prolonged period of time, right?
I think going back to basics and advocating a simpler, less competitive lifestyle is a good thing for everyone, not only for those with anxiety disorders.
I think exercise addiction and orthorexia are very real issues though which are increasing as a result of the "healthy lifestyle" obsession.
Sorry I missed this bit.
Yes I totally agree that some people can be more prone to anxiety, but that's not the same as accepting it'll always be there, because it doesn't have to be.
Fundamentally anxiety is caused by stress, period. The key is finding the things that stress YOU.
We know somebody local who used to run marathons all the time. She would run 50-100 miles a week. She was a proud home owner, working many hours a week to buy expensive things that she hung on walls with the price tag still attached. She hired me to paint her house (because you know, painter/decorators are all rich), but the house didn't need painting. She just wanted some expensive farrow and ball paint on her walls. About 2 years later we saw her in the supermarket, and she had aged about 15 years and had lost a ton of weight. We chatted to her and discovered that her physical and mental health had collapsed due to 'life commitments'. My point here is that it's possible that you (and anybody else) are doing things that you think are good for you, and you even want to do...but they might not be.
I'm just suggesting that you audit your own life and remove stress as much as possible. Despite me not having sources written down, I absolutely know we are not designed to live the life we are currently living, and the evidence is out there if you go and look for it.
When I use the term 'victim mentality', that doesn't mean I subscribe to the 'bootstrap mentality'. I'm simply asking you not to keep suggesting to yourself that your anxiety is inevitable. There is some value in the idea that you can pull yourself together, but I think it's better to have self compassion and give yourself the space to recover.
I don't think BI is suggesting that her anxiety is inevitable though. She has a realistic approach to it and has many techniques to manage it successfully. I think if that is acceptable to her then she has the right approach. We all have different ways to manage-personally if anyone said I had a victim mentality I would be devastated because I have always fought against that unattractive and unhelpful mindset.
ankietyjoe
16-10-19, 22:43
Perhaps I was too trigger happy with the phrase 'victim mentality'.
I would like to re-phrase it as 'inevitability acceptance'.
Or something.
So I'm the person with the history of mental illness for many generations in their family. I would like to say that I think you've all hit on something here. Each person is touching on a piece of the complex puzzle that is anxiety. If anxiety had just one or two main causes, it would be easier to identify, pinpoint and treat. But the fact is, it's hard to get rid of anxiety. If it were easy to treat, no one would have it. And the fact that it's hard to get rid of, just reinforces the fact, IMHO, that the causes are complex. Many of us, including myself, have to have a combination of things, such as medication, exercise, therapy, lifestyle changes to treat our anxiety. And again...that also reinforces the complexity of anxiety to me.
I would also like to say that just because I believe that a main cause of my anxiety is genetic, does not mean that I have a victim mentality. Yes, there are some people that are "Woe is me. I have anxiety, I'll never be okay", but I think you all who've been on here know I'm pretty proactive. I think that a person can be aware of their faults and possible areas of trouble and still work towards improving themselves.
Yes I completely agree with you, Vee. It's certainly a "work in progress" scenario as you suggest and is "accepting the inevitable" necessarily a bad thing/"giving in" or is it just being realistic and self-compassionate?
I think that acceptance of the situation (and of one's own personality) can actually be a really good jumping-off point for working on the anxiety and adapting your lifestyle accordingly.
As much as I'd like the cash, I'd never thrive in a high-stakes management role at work and I'm okay with that.
ankietyjoe
17-10-19, 09:26
I think that acceptance of the situation (and of one's own personality) can actually be a really good jumping-off point for working on the anxiety and adapting your lifestyle accordingly.
As much as I'd like the cash, I'd never thrive in a high-stakes management role at work and I'm okay with that.
I think this is an important point that you're looking at from the perspective of somebody on the other side. This does illustrate my point that stresses that a lot of people consider normal can actually be doing us damage over time.
It struck me several years ago that I was having to adapt my life to suit my condition, but only because my life wasn't conducive to physical or mental health in the first place.
Our fight or flight system is designed to work in short, sharp bursts. Modern life triggers it constantly, and it's brutal on our health.
Our fight or flight system is designed to work in short, sharp bursts. Modern life triggers it constantly, and it's brutal on our health.
Right with you on this one, Joe; I hate the rat race and I think it's a crying shame that we're forced to engage with it.
ankietyjoe
17-10-19, 09:53
What concerns me is that schools are now little more than rat race training, in the UK at least.
My 11 year old son was doing mathematics homework when he was 8, that I wasn't doing until I was 11-12. He was being given 60-90 minutes homework every single day, and it was causing him (and other friends/parents) issues. Further down the line at his current school the pressure being put on 11 years olds with SAT's is absurd. I had a parent/teacher meeting with his teacher who was wagging a finger in his face like a neurotic maniac telling him he wasn't up to standard (although he passed all his SAT's above standard in the end). She was so stressed out that I had to physically intervene and ask her to stop doing it.
I had to intervene with the school too as once again I could see the signs of stress in him. The funny thing is I ended up speaking to the headmaster of the school who basically 'let loose' with me about how sick and tired he was with having to deal with burnt out children. They have three staff in the school dedicated to 'student nurture'. In other words counsellors for anxious kids. Not only that, they have a system in place where anxious children have a card that they can flash to the teacher at any time to get out of the class if they're having a panic attack. Again, the headmaster of the school in placing the blame squarely on the pressure children are being put under.
My partner is a teaching assistant at a local nursery school and they are being encouraged to introduce far more advanced reading and writing curriculums and testing procedures for 3-4 year olds, whilst dropping art and music activities at the same time. This is completely ridiculous.
This was not the case when I was at school, we got here in a single generation.
I'm sorry, Joe, that's a ridiculous state of affairs. Kids should have the time to be kids - they only get the one chance!
I am older than you both and went to a primary school that was very strict and draconian. We all had to pass the 11+ or we were considered failures. We had constant exams and copious amounts of homework-parents were not allowed to help. No one was allowed to bring a packed lunch and every bit of food on our plates had to be eaten-including gristle in front of the ret of the class if we dared to leave it. Hasn't done me any harm...:winks:
ankietyjoe
17-10-19, 13:59
Pulisa, what we did as the 11+ they are now doing at 8. What 8 year olds used to be taught, is now being taught to 5 year olds.
The teachers I spoke to at my son's school say this have changed massively over the last 10 years, for the worse.
There is no case of 'it was just as bad in my day' here, because it wasn't.
For the record, I'll be 50 soon and I expect my primary school education was much the same as yours. I remember the gristle and lumpy mash.
It was a bit more than that, Joe but I'll leave it there.
Hi all
I don't have any answers to what causes anxiety or depression. In my case, I go from an everyday sense of being wired or gloomy, to episodes of feeling on the edge of a full breakdown, then back again. Just looking at some of the posts on this thread has made me think about my own experience. So here are some of my (utterly non-expert) thoughts:
Is it hereditary?
My mother is bipolar, plus has other issues, which meant me and my brother had a bouncy childhood. The thing is, because grew up with it, her highs and lows were normal to us.
However, in our early 20s, both of us developed emotional problems, unknown to each other. (We only admitted it to each other about 3 years ago).
Did we inherit a trait for poor mental health or did our childhood affect us more than we realised at the time? No idea.
Diet?
I've always been vegetarian, and was careful about my diet long before my mental health started to suffer. My brother eats anything!
I accept eating poor quality food affects people's health, and therefore emotions, but my bunny-rabbit diet doesn't help me in that regard.
Exercise?
About six years ago, I followed advice, and started working-out 5 days a week to help with my emotions.
If I'm feeling bad, it does often help a lot, but it doesn't stop the problems coming back.
I love going to the gym, but although am trim, I still feel grim much of the time.
So what does this mean?
No idea. If I didn't watch my diet or exercise, my problems could be a lot worse - I'm not willing to find out!
What I can say, in my experience, is that diet and exercise are certainly good things to do, but don't prevent mental health problems.
And please, if anyone thinks I'm trying to sound like a saint with my diet and exercise, I'm not.
I'm just doing what I can to stay on top of my stupid, wonky head.
Sometimes it works - often not - but I'm too afraid to give up either in case my problems get worse.
Yours
Witsend
I do the same, Witsend. As Tesco say,"every little helps" and following advice and leading as "healthy" a life as possible is sensible but not the answer or solution for many people.
Mrsmitchell1984
19-10-19, 14:10
I get this too- I do everything that is considered healthy and then think- why am I suffering?
But do anxiety and/or depression happen to a healthy body?
It’s a healthy heart that palpitates? It’s strong muscles that shake?
Unless you are talking about why the sensitisation happens because of a tired mind, and how can a mind become tired with a healthy lifestyle??
ankietyjoe
19-10-19, 14:35
The recovery process is a combination of what you do and how you think. Or maybe best described as how you re-think.
Looking after yourself physically is an almost essential part of recovery, it's much harder to feel calm and capable if your body is in an unhealthy state.
It's also (arguably) impossible to recover if you only rely on diet and exercise, mental habits will still remain.
The further back anxiety triggers go, the harder it is to re-wire the brain....but it is still possible.
In the OP's case he was dealing with with a mentally unstable parent, and this is very unsettling for a child. Neural pathways are formed that become very difficult to move away from later in life, difficult but not impossible.
I would have thought the OP would find something like NLP and meditation very useful over time.
So in addition to my own analysis that anxiety is caused by stress (wide, broad terminology), the removal of stress must be accompanied by the application of a recovery mechanism that works for you. For me it was meditation, simply because meditation ultimately severs the subconscious stimulus/response learned behaviours.
The recovery process is a combination of what you do and how you think. Or maybe best described as how you re-think.
Looking after yourself physically is an almost essential part of recovery, it's much harder to feel calm and capable if your body is in an unhealthy state.
It's also (arguably) impossible to recover if you only rely on diet and exercise, mental habits will still remain.
The further back anxiety triggers go, the harder it is to re-wire the brain....but it is still possible.
In the OP's case he was dealing with with a mentally unstable parent, and this is very unsettling for a child. Neural pathways are formed that become very difficult to move away from later in life, difficult but not impossible.
I would have thought the OP would find something like NLP and meditation very useful over time.
So in addition to my own analysis that anxiety is caused by stress (wide, broad terminology), the removal of stress must be accompanied by the application of a recovery mechanism that works for you. For me it was meditation, simply because meditation ultimately severs the subconscious stimulus/response learned behaviours.
Now I do agree with this. That’s why I’m such an advocate for a combination of techniques...because anxiety and depression are both mind AND body problems.
i also agree that stress exacerbates any mental health problems, both good and bad stress.
ankietyjoe
23-10-19, 20:32
To those demanding evidence, I came across this. Which is pretty much what I've been saying.
Oh, but it's not actual evidence, it's just another person's opinion too. But it's a worthwhile read nevertheless. And absolutely spot on...imo....
https://returntonow.net/2016/02/24/the-caveman-cure-for-depression/
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