Are we losing the NHS?

[Toby2000]

I don't know a WHOLE LOT about the ordeal, but I know that the NHS may become privatized and part of a US-UK trade deal after Brexit, according to leaked documents

I have health anxiety so I'm really scared

Can someone clarify if this is just sensationalism or if it likely will happen?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Toby,

Go with what the factchecking is saying. It doesn't say this.

https://fullfact.org/election-2019/is-the-nhs-up-for-sale/

The documents only showed the US saying they had an interest. That's just how negotiation works. The question is what we do.

Beware media nonsense. Parts of the NHS have been privatised already. The recent talks were around paying more drugs but the prices would destroy the NHS overnight so they would be impossible without massive increases in finding by central government. To be able to justify something like that would mean that trade deal would have to bring in a lot of money to offset the losses otherwise it wouldn't be feasible.

A Labour landslide awaits a GE where the Tories ditch the NHS. The danger always comes from slow trickle, which started under Blair.

No one can say for sure so we have to watch what comes of the UK-EU trade deal, which may cause problems with the UK-US one, and the UK-US one.

Today will be a frenzy of online activists claiming the sun hasn't come out because of this and the world is ending. Those of us in real world know it's just rain and it was raining yesterday too.

[Toby2000]

Toby,

Go with what the factchecking is saying. It doesn't say this.

https://fullfact.org/election-2019/is-the-nhs-up-for-sale/

The documents only showed the US saying they had an interest. That's just how negotiation works. The question is what we do.

Beware media nonsense. Parts of the NHS have been privatised already. The recent talks were around paying more drugs but the prices would destroy the NHS overnight so they would be impossible without massive increases in finding by central government. To be able to justify something like that would mean that trade deal would have to bring in a lot of money to offset the losses otherwise it wouldn't be feasible.

A Labour landslide awaits a GE where the Tories ditch the NHS. The danger always comes from slow trickle, which started under Blair.

No one can say for sure so we have to watch what comes of the UK-EU trade deal, which may cause problems with the UK-US one, and the UK-US one.

Today will be a frenzy of online activists claiming the sun hasn't come out because of this and the world is ending. Those of us in real world know it's just rain and it was raining yesterday too.

I gathered if anything it would likely just raise prices on certain drugs or something which is bad but the media, as you say, are making out that it's the end of the world, so it's quite hard to know what's true and what isn't

And thanks, I'm reassured by that article, let's just hope they don't go behind our backs

[MyNameIsTerry]

Trump wants to make other countries pay stupid amounts for drugs (it's not just us) so he can reduce the cost to Americans as part of us "us first" policy. Currently we get these drugs far cheaper through EU countries and others (India, China, etc).

That's negotiation though. You go in high on both sides saying you won't budge and compromise. We do have additional pressures because of Brexit and how much we need a trade deal but how on earth can anyone agree to one that will cripple us worse than if we just didn't sign it? The only issue on top of that are drugs we can only get from the US because they can increase prices to put pressure on other countries like us. But we can't argue that BoJo wants to cosy up the US whilst Donald wrecks our NHS with drug prices. There would be a backlash against the US. Hence it's about keeping an eye on sneaky backroom deals that get us there but by bit...some people might refer to some of the ones in recent memory as the Treaty of Maastricht and the Treaty of Lisbon :whistles:

Media Bias, Toby. Read the Telegraph, Mail or Express = EU evil, US good. Read the Guardian, Mirror = US evil, EU good. As ever it's somewhere in between and we are left so often voting for who we think is the least worst rather than the best.

Basically, we just don't know as Factcheck states.

[FrankT]

What do we want American drugs for anyway? What's wrong with Swiss ones?

[MyNameIsTerry]

What do we want American drugs for anyway? What's wrong with Swiss ones?

Some drugs are only made by US forms because they created them. Until patents expire every country has to go to them. That's another one Trump wants to try in this trade deal; extending patents to make more cash (which I totally disagree with). These companies are loaded, let them carry the cost.

Why not our own drugs? We sell nearly as many out of the UK as we buy in. This was one of Corbyn's policies to create a nationalised drug business to support ourselves.

Those companies will still want to sell to us after Brexit as they don't want to lose the trade. The question is whether we drop the tariffs to allow them to be profitable. If we don't the NHS will suffer higher prices from existing contacts.

Don't forget these drug companies, no matter where they are from, have been fleecing the NHS for decades. The NHS was overpaying for drugs due to it's own incompetence e.g. buying branded rather than generic, hence for years they have been trying to reduce these costs.

American firms just want to sell more, just normal business. EU firms will be annoyed as they want to retain trade. I wonder if we might get some bonusses out of the EU for this? But it's likely politicians on that side will just secure the trade for them so they can charge what they want just as the Americans are trying now.

[Ssmith]

No, the NHS will never become 'fully privatised' although roughly about 20% of it is already privatised.

Like Terry says, there is A LOT of scaremongering out there from the left, and this is coming from somebody who has always voted Labour. Also with the Conservatives winning a lot of working class seats, they will now want to keep those seats so expect to see what has been a very right winged Boris Johnson, start to move to centre right in order to appeal to everybody.

Things aren't as doom and gloom as people make out

[ankietyjoe]

You can't ignore what's going on and claim it's scaremongering, it's far more sinister than that.

Clinging on to straws like the NHS never being fully privatised don't matter if you're more or less obliged to pay for private health insurance to receive any kind of meaningful care. This IS where things are headed now. I actually know people being advised to look into private options because their GP cannot offer them immediate care. It is their GP saying this.

This IS what Brexit and this election has been about. Imagine what the NHS is worth now, look at the actual numbers being pumped into the NHS. Now imagine it being unregulated and open to jacked up medication and care fees. You're talking hundreds of billions a year.

Things are very, very doom and gloom and sticking your head in the sand is how we've got here in the first place.

Look at how things work in the US, it is not good.

[pulisa]

We're all doomed then. We need another General Election because the ignorant public have been brainwashed by the evil Tories and It's Not Fair!!!!!

[whispershadow]

I hope we never lose the NHS .......

[Ssmith]

You can't ignore what's going on and claim it's scaremongering, it's far more sinister than that.

Clinging on to straws like the NHS never being fully privatised don't matter if you're more or less obliged to pay for private health insurance to receive any kind of meaningful care. This IS where things are headed now. I actually know people being advised to look into private options because their GP cannot offer them immediate care. It is their GP saying this.

This IS what Brexit and this election has been about. Imagine what the NHS is worth now, look at the actual numbers being pumped into the NHS. Now imagine it being unregulated and open to jacked up medication and care fees. You're talking hundreds of billions a year.

Things are very, very doom and gloom and sticking your head in the sand is how we've got here in the first place.

Look at how things work in the US, it is not good.

But it is scaremongering a lot of it depending where you look. Having a brief look on Twitter and you see people saying there isn't going to be any NHS at all, you see the hashtag #RIPNHS trending and its gonna get people anxious. I'm not defending the Tories at all, I'm a Labour voter traditionally.

Regarding GPs advising people to look at private options, this has been ongoing for decades. About 15 years ago, I was advised to go private to get a cyst removed because the NHS wouldn't cover it. And don't forget the NHS started privatisation under Labour. The Conservatives have sped it up and it is under massive stress because of many factors.

It doesn't have to be so black and white which a LOT of people are doing. Our health system will never become like Americas and I can say that with a lot of confidence. We've had negotiations with the US regarding pharmaceutical contracts which is what happens with any trade deal/negotiation. Doesn't mean its going to happen

[Phoenixess]

The scariest part is when uninformed NHS nurses and sisters vote Tories [emoji2368] but bitch about their shifts, workloads, low pay, etc etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MyNameIsTerry]

But it is scaremongering a lot of it depending where you look. Having a brief look on Twitter and you see people saying there isn't going to be any NHS at all, you see the hashtag #RIPNHS trending and its gonna get people anxious. I'm not defending the Tories at all, I'm a Labour voter traditionally.

Regarding GPs advising people to look at private options, this has been ongoing for decades. About 15 years ago, I was advised to go private to get a cyst removed because the NHS wouldn't cover it. And don't forget the NHS started privatisation under Labour. The Conservatives have sped it up and it is under massive stress because of many factors.

It doesn't have to be so black and white which a LOT of people are doing. Our health system will never become like Americas and I can say that with a lot of confidence. We've had negotiations with the US regarding pharmaceutical contracts which is what happens with any trade deal/negotiation. Doesn't mean its going to happen

I agree with you. I'm a swing voter. I can't see how the Tories can use the current majority to then push all those Labour seats back into any Labour candidates hands by doing this. The question is whether they do it by stealth. Labour have already done some of this themselves and the Tories are running down the clock on it. But prior to today's thinking we have seen the NHS scaled back (in my time) through Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and then the short termers we've just had. The cottage hospitals were being sold off over decades including when Blair was in (well mine was). Local mental health inpatient units (not hospitals) in my area closed under all of these people. People waited on trollies in corridors in the 80s & 90s and going to A&E was often joked as a sit about for at least 6 hours.

Things are bad for the NHS now but I often feel it's played as never being anything other than excellent. I question whether this is tactical due to younger voters. I'm 43 and can remember all of the this when I was growing up. I can remember seeing hospitals on the news telling us they couldn't cope in winter and A&E's stretched to breaking point threatening closure.

Like you I'm not saying it's a positive now but it's certainly wasn't the wonder system in previous years either. Sit coms and comedians used to have plenty of digs at the NHS for being on a trolley for days in a corridor.

As for GP's advising to go private, yes, it's been like that for many years. It predates Cameron. I've had family that were outsourced to private hospitals for operations before this because of NHS shortages on electives.

I would welcome further protections on the NHS against privatisation. I think the SNP's Ian Blackford is raising something about this at the moment. Remove it from the politcla football it has always been no matter whether red or blue is on which bench.

How about mental health? I had my breakdown when New Labour were in. There was nothing out there for me. Other than my GP and meds there was a 12 month waiting list. Then IAPT came in and at least you can now get some support within a matter of months even if it is geared towards milder cases.

As for the trade deal, that's just business isn't it? Wouldn't the French want their fishermen to be happy and not care they put all of ours on the dole in poverty in the process? Wouldn't we say/do the same?

[MyNameIsTerry]

We're all doomed then. We need another General Election because the ignorant public have been brainwashed by the evil Tories and It's Not Fair!!!!!

:yesyes:

Only if we get to call it The People's Vote :winks:

[FrankT]

We're all doomed then. We need another General Election because the ignorant public have been brainwashed by the evil Tories and It's Not Fair!!!!!

Brainwashed? No, this was a single-issue election. We wanted the earliest opportunity to go independent and we took it.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Brainwashed? No, this was a single-issue election. We wanted the earliest opportunity to go independent and we took it.

How can we say it was all about Brexit? The only people saying that right now the people who are part of the problem in Labour who won't listen to their own research. Why are Labour voters turning Tory in areas where the Tories have always been despised? I'm in a Labour heartland and it turned blue in 2017 with a narrow margin and now has a thumping majority as of Thursday.

Brexit is part of it. The Labour party got their strategy all wrong and even during the recent campaign Corbyn stated he would not say about FOM until after you voted him in. How many saw this as "a Customs Union plus close alignment with the Single Market plus we will decide to re-open FOM after the GE when you can no longer stop us"? He just banged in another nail in his coffin with that.

Anti Semitism? Some will have been put off by the failings around this. However I question how many dockers in the north or shelf stackers in the midlands give a shite about this? The Tories are well known for having the same views yet they get the vote. This issue is again about metropolitan Labour.

His own MP's have been telling him for years he is unpopular. His personal ratings have been terrible.

Brexit came at the worst time for Corbyn, it completed side-lined his project...or should we say those who are really running the show behind Labour?

Three and half years of arsing about trying to frustrate it. So many people just wanted it done with. If we had another dither & delay party would we end up just thinking just flush the issue away we don't want to hear about it anymore? Isn't that what some of those MP's wanted? So, some may have viewed this as the last chance before they stopped it and never allowed the public a say again?

[tommy1982]

This time of year all health services creek, with flu epidemics , flu season just started,

no great nation on the planet has not got a national health service, so ignore the news.

If your over 65 get a flu jab, or have serious asthma if not you will be fine, flu is horrible
disgusting, but every few years you get a bad one , the terror passes after a few days

[WiredIncorrectly]

The NHS and mental health system was a mess before Brexit.

I visited my local A&E recently after a bout of mental health problems. There were already beds in the corridors and people left waiting in corridors because everywhere was jam packed. My local has had a bad reputation long before Brexit. My previous local was shut down and they replaced it with a huge mega hospital (QE in Birmingham). Before the QE the previous hospital was a complete failure. The QE failed both my Dad and my Stepdad during their Cancer battles and currently battle bed problems. Crazy considering that's a very very big hospital.

It's absolutely not fair to blame the failing of the NHS on Brexit. It's been a failure under every Government. There could be numerous reasons for this. I'm speculating but:

* Increasing population
* Increasing use of drugs and alcohol
* Increasing numbers of people with mental health
* Increasing number of people with Cancer
* Increasing number of people with heart problems
* Increasing use of NHS resources by immigrants (dont slap me with the right wing stick, it's true)
etc.

No doubt a result of decades of pollution, poor diet, poor quality food, lack of clean air, smoking, alcohol, drugs.The system probably can't respond to that quick enough.

[pulisa]

People are living a lot longer now and this puts a huge strain on services. People are encouraged to analyse their mental health and come forward for help if they are experiencing distress in any shape or form which previously would have been attributed to "life"..Obesity is responsible for many orthopaedic conditions requiring surgery..People are apathetic and don't care about their lifestyles but expect the NHS to sort them out when they inevitably get ill..

I still think that there should be a nominal fee to see a GP. Just to sort out the time wasters from the genuinely in need. Obviously with concessions.

[ankietyjoe]

It's absolutely not fair to blame the failing of the NHS on Brexit. It's been a failure under every Government. There could be numerous reasons for this. I'm speculating but:



Actually is it perfectly fair, and accurate.

Your speculations are going to be accurate for a percentage of added pressure, but it is just a small percentage.

As for media scaremongering, my own opinion is based on first hand conversations I've had with several people, and nothing to do with the media (which I generally ignore completely).

2 GP's have told me that unless they start charging for appointments, they will have to close the practice.
1 NHS practice manager has had her funding cut by MORE than 100% over the last ten years.
1 Psychiatrist has had her funding cut every year for the last 5 years.
1 Care worker has seen her team of 15 shrink to a team of 3 over the last 3 years, budget cuts.
The hospital my first child was born at (one of the highest rated in the country) has been closed down, my second child was born in a massively overstretched mega hospital only 5 years later.
When I called for an ambulance in 2015 (panic related) I was told none were available. 10 minutes later a paramedic turned up and told me they can override 999 calls, and I should have had an ambulance turn up in less than 5 minutes. He was concerned enough to take me into A&E although it was obviously nothing. On the journey there (20 minutes, because my local hospital had been shut down, remember?) he told me how massively understaffed they were now due to cut after cut. There is an ambulance station a couple of miles from where I live that's now abandoned almost 24/7. When I moved here in 2006 there would always be half a dozen crewed ambulances outside.
In 2015, I had a bleeding mole on my face. I COULD NOT get a GP appointment sooner than two weeks. They refused to give me an appointment. I HAD to go and get a private GP appointment. I mentioned not being able to get an NHS appointment for this (he also did NHS work) and he said to me outright that this is the way things are going to be right now. The money just isn't there any more.

And finally...the obvious one. If I do manage to get an appointment at my local GP (which is very, very hard these day), when I turn up it's empty. Not heaving at the seams, not full of immigrants.....empty. The last two times I've been there I have been in a waiting room with 30-40 chairs, but only 3-4 people waiting. This is not logically speaking an overstretched surgery, but an underfunded one. There are not staff there to see you, not too many patients.

You guys really need to get your head out of the papers and websites and start asking the questions to whoever you can because it IS being deliberately fvcked with.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Actually is it perfectly fair, and accurate.

Your speculations are going to be accurate for a percentage of added pressure, but it is just a small percentage.

As for media scaremongering, my own opinion is based on first hand conversations I've had with several people, and nothing to do with the media (which I generally ignore completely).

2 GP's have told me that unless they start charging for appointments, they will have to close the practice.
1 NHS practice manager has had her funding cut by MORE than 100% over the last ten years.
1 Psychiatrist has had her funding cut every year for the last 5 years.
1 Care worker has seen her team of 15 shrink to a team of 3 over the last 3 years, budget cuts.
The hospital my first child was born at (one of the highest rated in the country) has been closed down, my second child was born in a massively overstretched mega hospital only 5 years later.
When I called for an ambulance in 2015 (panic related) I was told none were available. 10 minutes later a paramedic turned up and told me they can override 999 calls, and I should have had an ambulance turn up in less than 5 minutes. He was concerned enough to take me into A&E although it was obviously nothing. On the journey there (20 minutes, because my local hospital had been shut down, remember?) he told me how massively understaffed they were now due to cut after cut. There is an ambulance station a couple of miles from where I live that's now abandoned almost 24/7. When I moved here in 2006 there would always be half a dozen crewed ambulances outside.
In 2015, I had a bleeding mole on my face. I COULD NOT get a GP appointment sooner than two weeks. They refused to give me an appointment. I HAD to go and get a private GP appointment. I mentioned not being able to get an NHS appointment for this (he also did NHS work) and he said to me outright that this is the way things are going to be right now. The money just isn't there any more.

And finally...the obvious one. If I do manage to get an appointment at my local GP (which is very, very hard these day), when I turn up it's empty. Not heaving at the seams, not full of immigrants.....empty. The last two times I've been there I have been in a waiting room with 30-40 chairs, but only 3-4 people waiting. This is not logically speaking an overstretched surgery, but an underfunded one. There are not staff there to see you, not too many patients.

You guys really need to get your head out of the papers and websites and start asking the questions to whoever you can because it IS being deliberately fvcked with.

Hey Joe. These problems were happening before Brexit. And many people are quick to blame the Tories starting with Thatcher. But Labour figures that can been seen as contributing to the NHS mess are Frank Dobson. Blair Government wasted £10 billion on overhauling the NHS computer system. Which was later scraped. What about Sir David Nicholson and Andy Burnham?

The NHS has failed under Labour and Conservatives. It's not a Brexit problem.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hey Joe. These problems were happening before Brexit. And many people are quick to blame the Tories starting with Thatcher. But Labour figures that can been seen as contributing to the NHS mess are Frank Dobson. Blair Government wasted £10 billion on overhauling the NHS computer system. Which was later scraped. What about Sir David Nicholson and Andy Burnham?

The NHS has failed under Labour and Conservatives. It's not a Brexit problem.

And back in the 80s & 90s people waited over a year for an elective. People were on trolleys in corridors. I remember being one of them.

For the last 30 years I have had to wait for 3-4 weeks for an appointment. We were lucky in that we had a walk-in surgery for several hours a day so could get quicker care for minor issues like coughs & colds but anything needing a longer appointment meant you had to wait weeks. My GF's surgery doesn't even have this and has had to wait weeks every time for decades. Now my surgery has scrapped the walk-in as they can't staff it citing nothing to do with money but the shortage of acceptable candidates.

There is not enough money put into the NHS and we all know this. But I fail to see how anyone my age can't remember the news reports every winter talking about NHS overcrowding and potential A&E closures. How can they miss the nurses going on strike long ago? What about the hospitals that were put into special measures? The NHS has always been in the news for things like this, it didn't suddenly start appearing post 2010.

This has been going on since I can remember from my childhood days. TV comedy always took the piss out of nationalised industries for being crap and the NHS was always being joked about for the long delays. Going to A&E when I was a kid was known to mean a very long delay.

I have no doubt some will wind down the NHS to make it worse to justify their ideology but there seems to be a lack of historical understanding too. I can remember standing in GP waiting rooms with my mum when I was primary school with about 40 patients in front of me. Anyone remember all the ambulances that took forever to turn up?

This is based not on reading some nonsense in the media, and it's the media printing the nonsense scaremongering about it all going to shite forgetting it has been like that for a very long time, it is based on experience.

If the NHS publish statistics stating things are worse then I believe them. If they publish evidence of lack of funding then I again believe them. But lets not forget there are agendas in politics on both sides and Labour's recent nonsense smoking gun showed that. We all know the further to the right of the Tories you have the Moggs who would love to sell everything off to their mates but further to the left of other parties you get scaremongering to achieve their votes. Now we will move from a narrative of the Tories destroying it to privatise (something they've obviously failed to do for many decades now, Blair had a good go at it though :whistles:) to one centred around Trump. I'm not going to immediately believe that because he is a convenient bogeyman for the further to the left because the media tell me. Evidence needed. Recent waving of reacted documents came up wanting.

Maybe it's the Russians again? :yesyes:

[pulisa]

Does your partner have to pay for her specialised therapy, Joe or does she get it on the NHS?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hey Joe. These problems were happening before Brexit. And many people are quick to blame the Tories starting with Thatcher. But Labour figures that can been seen as contributing to the NHS mess are Frank Dobson. Blair Government wasted £10 billion on overhauling the NHS computer system. Which was later scraped. What about Sir David Nicholson and Andy Burnham?

The NHS has failed under Labour and Conservatives. It's not a Brexit problem.

Just to add to this, austerity started in 2010. This was under a coalition of a moderate Tory party plus LibDems. Then in 2015 the same moderate Tory party were voted back in and continued it. The Tories lurched further to the right in 2016. Trump only came along in 2016 and Obama was leader throughout most of the period of austerity. Obama was trying to bring in his starting vision of a NHS.

So, under more moderate politicians than we have had in the Tory party in the past (when they didn't try to privatise it) they tried to go much further than the likes of Thatcher? Of course IDS and McVey are loathsome individuals who were wreckers but they didn't have a fiefdom.

Then comes along a leaked document (are they still investigating the Russians for this on Reddit?) that says the US want as much access to another country's markets as possible. Note that they said the same about media but currently no one is shouting much about the BBC going (remembering it's protected under Royal Charter anyway until 2027? We could have a Labour government by then...but its doubtful with the level of delusion those leading it even post Corbyn/McDonnell). All standard negotiation stuff and the EU would say exactly the same, those sainted EU people so loved by some.

And all along we forget about TTIP. This wasn't even mentioned in the campaign. Corbyn wanted a CU with the EU. TTIP was previously seen as a potential threat to the NHS causing it's unions to raise objections against it. It was shelved due to other EU country protests. But now they are working on it again. There is an interesting section in the old TTIP agreement that said any industry could be pushed into privatisation, including health, if one big provider could do it. All EU states were to be given an opt out. But under Brexit we wouldn't be EU states any longer.

This might have been why Corbyn wanted an opt out in his CU. But remember no other CU (Turkey, San Marino, Andorra) has such as opt out. Juncker has said it would be a non starter but we all know these big hats say no chance and then bend as negotiation starts (last reference being no chance to reopening the WA and look how quicker Juncker & Barnier folder there). Maybe Corbyn could get it? We can't rule that out. It would then open problems for the EU with Turkey who have already raised objections to how their CU is working with regards to FTA's. But no one covered any of this throughout the last few years and yet it still could mean privatisation of the NHS.

Why is that? Why is it that it's just the Tories that are the danger when we have documents showing the same could happen under the EU? Could it be Labour seizing on the old Tory sell off line they have trotted out since the 1970's?

[ankietyjoe]

Does your partner have to pay for her specialised therapy, Joe or does she get it on the NHS?

We got it on the NHS, but only after I fought for two years.

Also, the department we went through to get her treatment, no longer exists.

Furthermore......the NHS had flagged her case up to a legal team because we started making noises about medical negligence when she nearly died during childbirth, this is what originally triggered her 'super duper' treatment as I had to go and have a meeting with the surgeon where I dissected every decision that was made leading up to her emergency surgery. Basically, one of the midwives pulled when she shouldn't have pulled and caused an internal bleed. The NHS were tripping over themselves for us not to sue. They nearly killed her. They then sent her to a PTSD clinic in Reading, where she was misdiagnosed with CPTSD and put through exposure therapy which made her a LOT worse. I.....went mad.

Now, here's another thing. A pal of mine who now (oddly) owns a recording studio is a qualified paramedic, and served in Bosnia. He is also a UN negotiator and has a doctorate in politics. He also thinks that the NHS is being fvcked over in order to privatise.

The Brixit thing isn't directly responsible for the downfall of the NHS, but it's important to understand that once complete, many barriers which keep US medical insurance out of this country will no longer be in place.

*I find it oddly ironic that a board full of self confessed hypochondriacs can't ignore their own benign symptoms, but WILL happily choose to ignore the one entity's downfall as 'conspiracy theory'.

*:shades::yesyes::whistles:

And one more thing..........I am currently seeing an Osteopath because I am old and broken. He has suggested I go for an MRI to check the condition of a historical dodgy disc. He suggested that I first try and get a referral through the GP, but consider that he has seen these kind of referrals drop to almost zero percent chance of success in the last couple of years. So if I want one, I have to get it done privately. Oh, and for the record, the part of the hospital where I had my first bout of physiotherapy in 2008 has been closed down.

I mean the evidence of massively increased fvkery in the last 5-10 years is overwhelming. I'm not sure what you guys are not seeing.

[MyNameIsTerry]

The Brixit thing isn't directly responsible for the downfall of the NHS, but it's important to understand that once complete, many barriers which keep US medical insurance out of this country will no longer be in place.

*I find it oddly ironic that a board full of self confessed hypochondriacs can't ignore their own benign symptoms, but WILL happily choose to ignore the one entity's downfall as 'conspiracy theory'.


Ah ha, but since I'm not a HAer :yesyes:

The thing is though...the EU were in the process of trying to get TTIP in place with the US which also included the ability to turn the health sector private. It's why NHS unions were kicking off about TTIP. And once out of the EU we will no longer be covered by that text that protects all EU states by allowing them an opt out for the health sector.

My post on the EU thread on Misc about this:




Something Tony was concerned about before the referendum was TTIP, the EU-US trade deal, and it's impact on the NHS:




https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/


The EU are still in talks over this but we now have a new question - we will be on the outside under a Corbyn CU and not an EU member state. The wording is all about EU states having exemptions. Do we think we will have one? If we sign up to a CU we will have access to EU trade deals and TTIP, if ratified, would be one of them.

Consider the issue Turkey have raised. They are in a separate CU with the EU. However, that CU is attached to the EUCU in order to gain it's access. One drawback Turkey have raised is third party FTA's with the EU that allow Single Market access are one way - they can access further on into the Turkish market but Turkey can't benefit from the FTA access because they are in a satellite CU.

Where will we be? And will the EU care about preserving the NHS? Why would they after we have left? Imagine they do try to care and then Trump says the NHS issue is the one that scraps the entire agreement. Do we think the EU will sacrifice all that trade for a country that has left?

Now note the explanation doc Fullfact provided from the EU:


http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/july/tradoc_153614.pdf




Quite legal in that for one big private firm to run the NHS. :ohmy: It is down to the EU to decide and all part of their courts.


So, how would we prevent this in our laws when trade law within EU FTAs would be the jurisdiction of the ECJ?

Corbyn mentioned having a opt out which may mitigate this but it's all hidden information to us. What guarantee, in writing, do we have from the EU that they are willing to provide a CU with such an opt out, one that is not in existence in any of their CU's as it's within the voting rights of EU states which we would not longer have a seat at? Sadly, all this has been forgotten because the focus is on the Brexit deal rather than scrutinising the alternatives which are just been sold as soft options.

Corbyn has said he could easily get his deal because the EU have already agreed to it. :shrug: I've only seen Labour and our media talking about this deal and I can't remember seeing EU reps saying anything other than they would consider it.




Just wanted to give this one a boost again. I would like to know if Corbyn's CU will have an opt out that allows us to be exempt from TTIP or sections of it? There is no focus on this right now.

Another reason I ask is because Corbyn has added to the previous concerns of escalating drug prices with this leaked document.


https://www.msn.com/g00/en-gb/news/uknews/jeremy-corbyn-shows-documents-confirming-nhs-up-for-sale-under-boris-johnson/ar-BBXoNZi?ocid=spartanntp&i10c.ua=5&i10c.encReferrer=


From the commentary on the media this leaked document seems to be talking much the same as what came out of the Dispatches work i.e. the US want everything on the table and want to get as much as they can. Isn't that how negotiations start?
:shrug:
Aren't the French/Spanish doing the same with the future trade deal where they want our fishing waters?

I do think we need to be very careful in watching what the Tories get up to and goes without saying that Boris is about as trustworthy as the bloke on the corner offering me a go on his 3 cups and a ball game but there is a whiff of this being scaremongering too me too. I would expect US negotiators to watch the Queen's gold teeth but that doesn't mean we agree and any party that sells the NHS out will find themselves in the wilderness for some time as Labour would romp home on a pledge to bring it back...even if it was Corbyn at the helm. So, I suspect this is about a failing Corbyn trying to use the one issue that means more than Brexit to get his win.

Perhaps what could be achieved is some legislation about the FTA's that ensure where certain sensitive areas of the economy are discussed there has to be greater scrutiny by Parliament? If this isn't already out there somewhere?


This section is the worrying one:


EU governments are free to decide what they consider to be public 'utilities' or services.

If they wish, EU governments can organise these services so that just one supplier provides the service – what economists call a 'monopoly'.

This single provider can be: 
publicly owned ('public monopoly') 
a private firm which has the right to offer a particular service ('exclusive rights').

This applies to all service industries, except 2: 
telecommunications 
computer services.

If that deal goes through the same and we are locked into a CU with no opt outs (something no CU actually has without being an EU member) then what stops the US talking to the EU about opening up the UK health sector? We could be stuck praying the EU want to be nice to us.

Brexit may open an opportunity for certain people but stopping Brexit never protected it anyway since the same opportunity was being enshrined in EU law via trade deals.

So, what protection is there? The only protection is public opinion. The EU didn't protect the NHS by law anymore than UK law did. And UK law can easily be created to protect it as long as it doesn't clash with EU law. EU law allows for nationalised industries to stay nationalised, it does have laws about unfair competition with state investment into privatised industry.

The SNP are raising a Bill to look at protection of the NHS so I guess we need to watch what happens.

[ankietyjoe]

I think it's important to make a distinction between opening up the UK health market for trade, and doing that in combination with slaughtering the NHS. It's the slaughtering of the NHS that needs urgent and immediate public outcry about.

I have another friend (actually an ex-neighbour) who on the face of it is intelligent, calm and compassionate. However, he voted Tory in the belief that immigrants are a massive issue that is destroying the NHS. He also has a pacemaker fitted and he's less than 40. He often needs urgent medical attention, but still voted Tory. When I questioned him about his choice he said in the same paragraph that all the parties are liars and therefore the same, but also that Tories have promised to 'not touch' the NHS.

Hang on a sec...

They promise they won't touch it, but they're also liars.

I am dumbfounded and concerned at the reasons people are voting Tory, especially the people I actually know who are actually 'normal' and actually outwardly compassionate.

Because of the nature of my job, I am connected with all sorts on social media and there are numerous complete effing morons voting for them as well under the thinly veiled racist BS flag of national pride. You know the type.

Gah, it's a mess.

[WiredIncorrectly]

I think it's important to make a distinction between opening up the UK health market for trade, and doing that in combination with slaughtering the NHS. It's the slaughtering of the NHS that needs urgent and immediate public outcry about.

I have another friend (actually an ex-neighbour) who on the face of it is intelligent, calm and compassionate. However, he voted Tory in the belief that immigrants are a massive issue that is destroying the NHS. He also has a pacemaker fitted and he's less than 40. He often needs urgent medical attention, but still voted Tory. When I questioned him about his choice he said in the same paragraph that all the parties are liars and therefore the same, but also that Tories have promised to 'not touch' the NHS.

Hang on a sec...

They promise they won't touch it, but they're also liars.

I am dumbfounded and concerned at the reasons people are voting Tory, especially the people I actually know who are actually 'normal' and actually outwardly compassionate.

Because of the nature of my job, there are also numerous complete effing morons voting for them as well under the thinly veiled racist BS flag of national pride. You know the type.

Gah, it's a mess.

I think only time will tell here Joe with NHS. I don't think it'll be butchered. The carcass has been rotting for a while.

Just so we're clear I didn't vote. a) I don't want to be on the electoral roll b) There were no suitable candidates that aligned with my views. But I think it's a bit unfair to use peoples intelligence as a meter.

Labour were the only runners in the race. And Corbyn fluffed it up. He should have resigned a long time a go. The party may have had better luck. The conservative to labour swing in some areas was huge. Those people are not stupid, they were let down by their party. Brexit party and Lib Dems took many votes from labour too.

[ankietyjoe]

I'm making a distinction on the intelligence of people I know who vote Tory. I KNOW they are morons, I see what they say.

The Lib Dems got my vote here simply because they were the only tactical vote to keep Tories out in this constituency.

Oddly, there is a LOT of noise about our Tory candidate being absent from any kind of interaction in Windsor, and he's also filed for a dubious and clearly tactical bankruptcy despite being worth over £50 million.

He still won.

Morons.

[ankietyjoe]

Anyway, I'm going to stay out of this thread now as I clearly have a large bee in my bonnet because I know I'm right about this. Any further involvement from me is going to be simply making the same points over and over again.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think it's important to make a distinction between opening up the UK health market for trade, and doing that in combination with slaughtering the NHS. It's the slaughtering of the NHS that needs urgent and immediate public outcry about.

Yes, it does. But my point is that you can't depend on either party when both are fine with opening up the market. Where were Labour when TTIP was going on before Brexit? And why is it purely Tory = evil, Labour = saviours, when both could allow the NHS to be dismantled? TTIP may be backdoor but it could mean we have no say in US firms coming in. Both provide opportunities for a certain breed to make profit in politics.

Do I trust Boris? Do I feck! But I also don't trust Corbyn who has remained silent on the backdoor sell off option.

Labour went for scaremongering. They would have had a very valid point if they went with austerity and cuts. Waving that document about, one that none of the press could even agree with Corbyn on, just made them look like scaremongers.

Perhaps those concerned about immigration were fine voting Labour but not a Labour that more recently has said it wants to operate an open doors policy? Italy & France must have been watching with glee at that possibility as all their troubles could be magicked away as they diverted them into our waters.

Again, it's lack of investment. You can't take in tons of people and not invest in your infrastructure to cope with them. That only helped bring Brexit along quicker.

But there are loads of reasons for all this and dropping people into a few buckets marked blue, red and yellow just continues to mask the problems rather than understand why people think the way they do. Labour & LibDem just paid a heavy price for failing to listen.

Get Brexit onto it's next stage. Sort out a better Labour party (one that starts with sacking most of the dismal front bench) and give us a credible opposition to vote for. With Brexit having less hold on everyone we can go back to the other issues that matter. That includes the dismantling of public services across the board whether it's my local library or toilets...which I'm assuming Trump doesn't also want :biggrin: (tackling homelessness should also be a big priority as it has got worse under austerity and needs protection compared to the stuff we can live without).

[WiredIncorrectly]

Anyway, I'm going to stay out of this thread now as I clearly have a large bee in my bonnet because I know I'm right about this. Any further involvement from me is going to be simply making the same points over and over again.

I think discussion and debate is healthy provided we all take off the politics hat when we leave the thread :roflmao:

Borris is a c**t we can all agree on that. His recent showboating and pompous attitude is playground like behaviour.

It's the entire system that's f**ked because of the Internet and social media. Political campaigns are all about who has the most money and best marketers. Which is wrong. There needs to be an even platform for parties to discuss their politics with the people.

I've always been one for a macro type Government where there are no central powers in parliament. Area's are too big for MP's to manage. Communities within the constituency need representatives, not just the wider area. Representatives for the smaller areas should be elected on a community basis. That way you can deal with community needs directly. Electorates shouldn't need any special qualifications except to have a passion to work with their community and improve it.

I think people should also be able to decide where a percentage of their taxes should go.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think discussion and debate is healthy provided we all take off the politics hat when we leave the thread :roflmao:

Borris is a c**t we can all agree on that. His recent showboating and pompous attitude is playground like behaviour.

It's the entire system that's f**ked because of the Internet and social media. Political campaigns are all about who has the most money and best marketers. Which is wrong. There needs to be an even platform for parties to discuss their politics with the people.

I've always been one for a macro type Government where there are no central powers in parliament. Area's are too big for MP's to manage. Communities within the constituency need representatives, not just the wider area. Representatives for the smaller areas should be elected on a community basis. That way you can deal with community needs directly. Electorates shouldn't need any special qualifications except to have a passion to work with their community and improve it.

I think people should also be able to decide where a percentage of their taxes should go.

Sounds like more regional assemblies and proper mayors? It makes sense to me because here we go again with Labour putting up candidates that represent metropolitan interests. If we had groups of MP's based on regions they might have more collective bargaining power rather than us rotting whilst London gets money pumped into it and remains the be all and end all.

Our councils are supposed to be there for this but there seems to be a failure between local and national. We don't want to be appointing more numpties on high salaries (hence why I'm against creating mayors) but assemblies make more sense as long as they work in them within the remit of their current contract with Parliament and the people and we don't end up creating yet another gravy train for them to ride.

Some MP's seem to group together for cross border issues with industry and regeneration anyway so they can approach Parliament as a group. It makes more sense than seeing one MP stand up to raise a question in the Commons about regenerating some corner shops in his constituency.

But hang on, what am I saying??? This will just mean more civil servants to take minutes and hand out bits of paper. :doh:

And yes, Boris is a c0ckwomble. :yesyes:

[WiredIncorrectly]

And yes, Boris is a c0ckwomble. :yesyes:

I love that word.

No need for minute takers. Livestream the assemblies, or record and upload. I think that's important for those that don't attend the assemblies.

There's going be a bottleneck situation though. The elective for the wider area still has to stand in parliament and address the issues. Impossible to do. I guess you could say communities have some sort of independence. If there's an issue with the local surgery for example, that can be addressed and swiftly. It would require that local businesses etc are required to attend and address any issues in the community. If the local surgery is slacking, they are there to address that and answer why. If there's a problem with vandalization, harassment, etc it can be dealt with in the community.

Would also help communities come together. There's enough churches, mosques, youth centres and libraries for this to happen.

[feelthelove]

We're all doomed then. We need another General Election because the ignorant public have been brainwashed by the evil Tories and It's Not Fair!!!!!

I am a Tory and they are not evil , they will bring this country back to prosperity once we leave the eu, which I feel is the best thing for our country . I haven't been brainwashed I know exactly what i am doing and I make my own mind up . Seems like the rest of us do too especially northern voters who have lost trust in Labour and the other party that wanted to ignore the democratic vote .

[pulisa]

Sorry, feelthelove-I wasn't being serious. Just reflecting the general sore loser attitude of those who have no option other than to complain about the outcome of the GE.

[feelthelove]

I'm making a distinction on the intelligence of people I know who vote Tory. I KNOW they are morons, I see what they say.

The Lib Dems got my vote here simply because they were the only tactical vote to keep Tories out in this constituency.

Oddly, there is a LOT of noise about our Tory candidate being absent from any kind of interaction in Windsor, and he's also filed for a dubious and clearly tactical bankruptcy despite being worth over £50 million.

He still won.

Morons.


I'm not a moron but I do think anyone who voted libdem are against democracy . The reason for my thinking is that anyone who votes for a party blatantly wanting to ignore 17.4 million voters can't be trusted . How could you trust that party to honour their word when they just want to ignore 17.4 million as if they don't matter .

I'm from a Labour town and we all voted Tory because we also voted to leave the eu in the referendum, its not wise to ignore the electorate and the referendum result was never and never will go away . Brexit is happening , I am sorry if that causes you anxiety but calling people morons isn't the way to go .

Peace and Merry Christmas .

[feelthelove]

Sorry, feelthelove-I wasn't being serious. Just reflecting the general sore loser attitude of those who have no option other than to complain about the outcome of the GE.

Oh okay sorry I thought it was a dig at those who voted to leave . I am happy with the outcome of the election . It's certainly lifted my spirit because the whole Brexit saga has caused everyone some sort of anxiety . I don't think ignoring us and trying block us has helped. This has been a mental torture for the people . I get that remain are anxious and the uncertainty has caused them to be fearful, but the other side is the leave voters , the feeling of being ignored and betrayed is a horrible emotion and its caused so much anger and frustration . I will be glad when we are finally out and we can all move on , the country needs closure and the only way to do this is to honour the result of the referendum. We win and we lose in life its what life is about . I hate the fact people are arguing and name calling , whatever a result of any vote we normally move on after a few days of moaning but now people just don't like losing and unless we carry out the result it will get worse .

[feelthelove]

I think discussion and debate is healthy provided we all take off the politics hat when we leave the thread :roflmao:

Borris is a c**t we can all agree on that. His recent showboating and pompous attitude is playground like behaviour.

It's the entire system that's f**ked because of the Internet and social media. Political campaigns are all about who has the most money and best marketers. Which is wrong. There needs to be an even platform for parties to discuss their politics with the people.

I've always been one for a macro type Government where there are no central powers in parliament. Area's are too big for MP's to manage. Communities within the constituency need representatives, not just the wider area. Representatives for the smaller areas should be elected on a community basis. That way you can deal with community needs directly. Electorates shouldn't need any special qualifications except to have a passion to work with their community and improve it.

I think people should also be able to decide where a percentage of their taxes should go.

I like Boris he is brilliant :)

[MyNameIsTerry]

Sorry, feelthelove-I wasn't being serious. Just reflecting the general sore loser attitude of those who have no option other than to complain about the outcome of the GE.

They had those signs all nicely printed and ready, didn't they? :winks:

[MyNameIsTerry]

I'm not a moron but I do think anyone who voted libdem are against democracy . The reason for my thinking is that anyone who votes for a party blatantly wanting to ignore 17.4 million voters can't be trusted . How could you trust that party to honour their word when they just want to ignore 17.4 million as if they don't matter .

I'm from a Labour town and we all voted Tory because we also voted to leave the eu in the referendum, its not wise to ignore the electorate and the referendum result was never and never will go away . Brexit is happening , I am sorry if that causes you anxiety but calling people morons isn't the way to go .

Peace and Merry Christmas .

Lets not forget why some call the LibDems yellow Tories. Whilst this party offered a hope for cancelling Brexit for some they said they would support Boris in a coalition whilst saying no chance to a Labour coalition. They only agreed to a Labour coalition if Corbyn went, something they have been arguing for ages about before the election.

So, I find it a bit strange that the "anybody but the Tories" crowd voted LibDem when they would have propped Boris up anyway. They would have got a 2nd referendum out of it but if it's all about the NHS and so forth they would have enabled the Tories to carry on. Would the LibDems have been a moderating force? Maybe. But Swinson was quite clearly someone who would sell her vote for any power and may just vote the way she is told to retain it if in a coalition as she did last time she was a minister.

It seems quite a risk to vote tactically for them because Labour have little support in a seat. Only Labour were going to take on the Tories in their own way and grant that mythically, and heavily Remain rigged, 2nd referendum some wanted.

[feelthelove]

Lets not forget why some call the LibDems yellow Tories. Whilst this party offered a hope for cancelling Brexit for some they said they would support Boris in a coalition whilst saying no chance to a Labour coalition. They only agreed to a Labour coalition if Corbyn went, something they have been arguing for ages about before the election.

So, I find it a bit strange that the "anybody but the Tories" crowd voted LibDem when they would have propped Boris up anyway. They would have got a 2nd referendum out of it but if it's all about the NHS and so forth they would have enabled the Tories to carry on. Would the LibDems have been a moderating force? Maybe. But Swinson was quite clearly someone who would sell her vote for any power and may just vote the way she is told to retain it if in a coalition as she did last time she was a minister.

It seems quite a risk to vote tactically for them because Labour have little support in a seat. Only Labour were going to take on the Tories in their own way and grant that mythically, and heavily Remain rigged, 2nd referendum some wanted.

That was my fear that a second referendum would be fixed . The whole thing has caused division and fear and I will be glad when it's done so we can all move on. I certainly don't think brushing it under the carpet would be accepted . Brexit needs to happen and quick. I will also be glad when Brexit is not in the news daily it drive me mad lol .

[ankietyjoe]

I am a Tory and they are not evil , they will bring this country back to prosperity once we leave the eu, which I feel is the best thing for our country . I haven't been brainwashed I know exactly what i am doing and I make my own mind up . Seems like the rest of us do too especially northern voters who have lost trust in Labour and the other party that wanted to ignore the democratic vote .

I lied, I'm back in.

"Bring back to prosperity"?!?!

You know the UK has the 5th largest economy on the planet, right? Do you understand that this tiny country is massively, massively wealthy. How do you expect leaving the EU to improve that? How exactly do you expect this to impact your life (and the lives of your fellow voters) in a positive way?

Perhaps you're confused with the distribution of wealth, which is (demonstrably) only going one way. ie - not yours.


I like Boris he is brilliant :)


Brexit is happening , I am sorry if that causes you anxiety but calling people morons isn't the way to go .



It doesn't cause me anxiety, is causes me despair. And the idea that Boris Johnson is 'brilliant' re-confirms my belief in my previous comments.

I'm sorry if that causes you anxiety.

[pulisa]

Brexit is happening and the Tories won the GE overwhelmingly. You are entitled to feel despair, Joe but you've already said that you know you are right with your views so why not leave it at that?

[ankietyjoe]

Brexit is happening and the Tories won the GE overwhelmingly. You are entitled to feel despair, Joe but you've already said that you know you are right with your views so why not leave it at that?

Because I know I'm right.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50879809?fbclid=IwAR0-DjCQ-jgHz7opWFAwQ1WrDg8FKIpnbNOrYcIIFNaDMykx2vcZ9lFQVfY

[MyNameIsTerry]

Because I know I'm right.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50879809?fbclid=IwAR0-DjCQ-jgHz7opWFAwQ1WrDg8FKIpnbNOrYcIIFNaDMykx2vcZ9lFQVfY

Power stations sold off to the Chinese under previous PMs. British Steel sold off to China recently. 5G service sold off by May to a Chinese company despite being strategic to us and Chinese firms known to have state influence by their intelligence service.

Doesn't this point more to selling off of British assets than one plan to collude with the US? If not then why are we allowing the Chinese to gain so many of our assets remembering steel production is very important when it comes to war. But then how much of our infrastructure is owned by foreign firms anyway? And don't forget the nuclear weapons we pay the US to service at their base and have done for a very long time.

I don't see how this points to a sell off of the NHS.

[ankietyjoe]

The whole Brexit issue is a removal of barriers to US money in two main ways. The health service, and the food standards.

It's the willingness to hand over anything to the US in exchange for personal gain/wealth that is at the core of this.

And no, the link doesn't point directly towards the selling of the NHS, it just illustrates the 'nothing is sacred' mantra that is bubbling up in the background.

[MyNameIsTerry]

The whole Brexit issue is a removal of barriers to US money in two main ways. The health service, and the food standards.

It's the willingness to hand over anything to the US in exchange for personal gain/wealth that is at the core of this.

And no, the link doesn't point directly towards the selling of the NHS, it just illustrates the 'nothing is sacred' mantra that is bubbling up in the background.

Which would be the same mantra under previous PMs selling off other strategic assets. It's just that now we can say we are cosying up to the US and add it as some evidence and forget about the other evidence. Isn't this more an argument for re-nationalisation? Privatisation saw such Tory types making plenty selling off old industries and often to our EU partners.

Don't forget about workers rights. Singapore on Thames. Always a lame argument though as if the trade union movement has never existed and only the EU protect us from lower working standards...despite us having higher ones than the EU minimum in some cases.

I admit it's a possibility. We have to now watch and see where this goes. The drugs talks with the US were a damp squib. It will be hospital assets and insurance schemes that I would be looking for as evidence.

So, how about we start enshrining some laws to protect ourselves? Ian Blackford seems to be talking about one for the US. Why do we have to be governed by a greater framework (the EU) because we can't be trusted to govern ourselves?