View Full Version : Wonder how we would have coped...........?
I thought I would like to try to find an antidote to a lot of the unsettling stuff in the news over the past few weeks (eg Coronavirus), and have been harking back to past decades which had their own exceptional troubles and hardships. Though I am not in any way intending to trivialise present-day issues in any way, I have been wondering myself over the past few days how much present-day society (and I don't just mean young people) would have coped, back in say, the seventies, when we (reportedly) had crisis after crisis after crisis, but on the upside (IMO) were all accompanied by a complete absence of the Internet, let alone social media, during that period.
Although I was born towards the end of said decade (in 1977), I have read up on quite a few of the difficult issues that the UK in particular faced during that period. Such as (in no particular order);
A. The rapid growth of IRA terrorism within mainland Britain (that also continued through the eighties and well into the nineties).
B. The oil crisis of 1973-74, the power cuts and the resulting economic crisis.
C. Shortages of certain materials.
D. Mass industrial unrest and people downing tools willy-nilly, often over seemingly trivial issues.
E. Mounting racial tensions, the growth of the NF, etc, and various inner city riots, as the decade wore on.
F. Increasingly widespread football hooliganism.
G. The height of the Cold War and the ever-present threat of nuclear annihilation by the former Soviet Union.
H. The start of mass unemployment.
I. The 'Winter Of Discontent' in late 1978-early 1979 with mass strikes left, right and centre, especially bin-bags and the like cluttering up the streets of major cities, due to council workers having downed tools for weeks on end.
J. Far worse winter weather than what we seem to have today.
K. Brutal treatments from authority figures, eg, police officers, school headteachers and even childrens' own parents were more commonplace.
Although I admit I may not be absolutely correct in all the things from the I have listed above and of course some of the above still remain threats today, I am trying to point out that every era has its problems, though some more than others, of course. Also that many things probably seem worse today than ever before, due to the advent of not just the Internet and social media but also 24/7 TV and radio, plus of course rolling news channels with wall-to-wall coverage of specific events, which would have previously been limited to conventional printed newspapers and bulletins on TV and radio at set times throughout the day.
Unlike today of course, where the slightest thing from anywhere in the world is constantly beamed into our faces no matter where we are.
Take care.
On second thoughts, due to me being a new FM and still trying to get to grips with this site, I now wonder whether the 'Tips for dealing with Anxiety and Panic' sticky thread may have been a more appropriate place to post this thread? Any thoughts?
ankietyjoe
02-03-20, 20:09
To try and simplify this as much as I can, in terms of how I perceive now vs then.
1) My Father bought a 5 bedroom house in London for cash in the mid 70s. He was doing OK, but was by no means wealthy. These days you'd need to be a top 5% earner and pay it back for 25 years.
2) Food quality is lower and food quantity is higher. Much, in both cases, now.
3) Far less pressure on children to be exposed to work ethic and drama, then.
4) Complete saturation of horrendous news stories 24/7, now.
5) Terrible exercise ethics now, it's either doing nothing or pushing yourself into a coma.
We run ourselves into the ground to 'do well', and then absorb messages 24 hours a day telling us we are going to die soon.
To try and simplify this as much as I can, in terms of how I perceive now vs then.
1) My Father bought a 5 bedroom house in London for cash in the mid 70s. He was doing OK, but was by no means wealthy. These days you'd need to be a top 5% earner and pay it back for 25 years.
2) Food quality is lower and food quantity is higher. Much, in both cases, now.
3) Far less pressure on children to be exposed to work ethic and drama, then.
4) Complete saturation of horrendous news stories 24/7, now.
5) Terrible exercise ethics now, it's either doing nothing or pushing yourself into a coma.
We run ourselves into the ground to 'do well', and then absorb messages 24 hours a day telling us we are going to die soon.
Joe,
I probably agree with you regarding 1, 3 and 4, especially 4 in which you are totally correct.
Not quite sure about 2 and 5 though.
But nevertheless, I fully respect your views and opinions.
Keep well.
Not to mention the virtual world the internet has created......
IMO, that alone (Especially Google), has fueled mental illness to epidemic proportions.
Positive thoughts
I was under terrible pressure at school to be an achiever in the seventies and it was incredibly hard to get a university place. Exams were "on the day" and if you had a bad day, tough. No assessments throughout the course, no exam counselling, no mental health input-you just had to get on with it like everyone else did. I don't think it was a bad thing but can imagine how badly it would go down today.
Not to mention the virtual world the internet has created......
IMO, that alone (Especially Google), has fueled mental illness to epidemic proportions.
Positive thoughts
I pretty much agree with you Fishmanpa, but there were no doubt quite a few mental illnesses that society was vastly unaware of at the time, especially as it was rarely discussed, and indeed, stigmatised a lot more back then, unlike now where MH issues are much more openly discussed and seemingly less taboo. I am sure many of you on here who are older than me (nearly 43) remember the old expression about 'being carted off to the funny farm' by men in white coats!!
BTW, I wouldn't be disappointed if social media was to suddenly be consigned to history tomorrow!!
ankietyjoe
02-03-20, 21:11
Joe,
I probably agree with you regarding 1, 3 and 4, especially 4 in which you are totally correct.
Not quite sure about 2 and 5 though.
But nevertheless, I fully respect your views and opinions.
Keep well.
Why would you disagree on those points, out of interest?
Why would you disagree on those points, out of interest?
Concerning your points 2 and 5.
I don't disagree per se, I just feel unable to make judgement due to lack of personal experience/evidence.
No offence intended.
ankietyjoe
03-03-20, 10:23
Concerning your points 2 and 5.
I don't disagree per se, I just feel unable to make judgement due to lack of personal experience/evidence.
No offence intended.
No offence taken, just chewing the fat! :)
To clarify, the supermarkets have far more processed, low quality food on the shelves and the fresh fruit and veg that is available is often heavily sprayed and flown in from half way around the world. The nutritional value of fresh food drops off considerably after it's picked, so having abundant availability is a double edged sword. Food is also cheaper relative to the 70s/80s and the ability to buy 1.5kg of (shitty) lasagne for a fiver means that lots of people are eating very poorly.
As for the exercise, more people are sedentary these days both at home and at work (there is data about this everywhere). We work much longer hours (data everywhere) and then try and make up for being sedentary by exercising REALLY hard at 9pm, putting an already stressed body through more stress....then go home and eat a low quality ready meal and a bottle of wine. Peoples lives just used to involve more walking about and doing 'stuff', because they didn't have an iPad to collapse in front of after a hard day sitting down.
We are creating the perfect recipe for a worn down body/mind. In my opinion, based on my own observations.....that don't apply to absolutely everybody.
The 70s was a tough decade for most people.
Food was not so great at all. That's when additives in food really kicked in and the growth of the takeaway boom.
Donna kebab at 11pm. Pubs were full to the rafters and punters eating stale titbits off the bar.
Gastly food like Angel delight, nesquick, sausages that looked anaemic, cheap beans, Watery soups.
It was an era when it was ok to give a kid a packet of crisps with an extra packet of salt inside, with a curly wurly and a dairy lea cheese triangle and a can of coke.
And because of poor wages for most, would eat cheap offerings from the butcher like hearts, liver, chicken drumsticks, sausage-meat and mince.
And Joe, if you were able to buy a 5 bedroom house in London for cash, then you were one wealthy dude.
My mum had 3 jobs and my dad worked 7 days a week and still had a hefty mortgage on a terraced house and had to make cutbacks.
This became an opportunity for the 'HP' market. (Hire Purchase). And probably why the 'Credit Card 'was introduced in the 80s, which put most people in debt with the loss of many homes.
Property was the best investment and your dad's 5 bedroom house in London Joe, will probably be in the ballpark figure of a million plus.
As for jobs. Low pay, a 3 day week, strikes...
Tradesmen building stuff on the cheap remembering formica tables and most wives making their own curtains, cushions, bedspreads and clothes.
Men doing D. I. Y. and wives having to live with it.
Children wearing hand me downs and horrible knitted jumpers mum made.
Walking to school or work, because a car was a luxury.
Bullying was rife with no one to turn to.
The streets were full of gangs or protesters.
A Haircut was done by your mum and badly.
A dentist trip was only if you had toothache and most kids grew up with uneven teeth or a mouthful of Mercury filled teeth.
Holidays were mainly in the uk and usually involved camping or caravaning.
We've come along way since the 70s in my opinion!
ankietyjoe
03-03-20, 11:35
And Joe, if you were able to buy a 5 bedroom house in London for cash, then you were one wealthy dude.
My mum had 3 jobs and my dad worked 7 days a week and still had a hefty mortgage on a terraced house and had to make cutbacks.
This became an opportunity for the 'HP' market. (Hire Purchase). And probably why the 'Credit Card 'was introduced in the 80s, which put most people in debt with the loss of many homes.
Property was the best investment and your dad's 5 bedroom house in London Joe, will probably be in the ballpark figure of a million plus.
What I'm trying to say is we weren't millionaires, I did say he was relatively well off. But, he was a carpenter turned shop owner. He managed to work hard and save money for 5-10 years to buy that house. That is not feasible for anybody these days. The house is long gone after my parents got divorced in the early 80s, but the point is that yes, that house is now worth about £1.5 million. Even if you earned £150k and saved half your earnings you could never save fast enough to do the same thing. It's illustrating that the cost of living has actually sky rocketed in the last 20-30 years where you now require both parents in a family to work 40-50 hour weeks to do ok. It's not how things are supposed to be (in my opinion).
In terms of everything else you mentioned, I don't disagree. However, there are just as many stresses these days, they're just different. And persistent. Todays stresses tend to be things that are more difficult to wake away from, or get a break from.
Of the things you listed, I only really see bullying as a stress. Everything else is just what happens in life. Would you disagree? Were you mentally scarred by knitted jumpers and bad haircuts?
Yes I was scarred by knitted jumpers and bad haircuts.
For one thing The bullies latched on to that.
The other was my confidence and lack of self worth.
But it wasn't my parents fault, the money was just not there.
My parents also worked 50 hours a week plus and my dad had a trade and we lived with my grandparents so they could save just the down-payment which was 3 years.
It was tough for them and I'm not saying your parents didn't work hard Joe, but your parents wealth would definitely have made your life more comfortable.
We didn't even have central heating or double glazing, because they just couldn't afford it.
People tend to live beyond their means today and have grown up with debt that was induced by the banks.
You could have it all in the 80s, but it came with a price, debt!
Being poor or having little finances can induce many anxieties.
If you have money, you can seek private help in many ways and having a cushion of wealth does ease the mind, you have options.
And if you have money, you don't have to eat the shit*y lasagne. :huh:
Lencoboy is right imo, the 70s and many other decades were much tougher than our present time.
In my household we often sat in our house by candlelight because of the power cuts. Froze in the winter with what seemed like 6 month long colds and flu.
Mum counted the pennies due to the 3 day week.
Dad blocked up the letterbox due to the IRA bombing attacks.
The streets at night were full of racist gangs.
TB was brought back to the country.
And food was disgusting most of the time with packet soup, smash, milk that had gone off and a vast amount of food colourings, to mention a few.
That's my opinion.
Carnation, a very interesting summary of your (not-so-good) memories of the 70s.
Of course, there were also many great things about that decade too, many of which are still greatly revered today, the music in particular.
I recall the first half of the 90s being a pretty grim time both for myself and many other people.
Sky high interest rates and inflation having spiralled out of control at the start of the decade.
The economic recession that began midway through 1990 and lasted until early 1993 with overall unemployment touching 3 million once again.
The introduction of the Poll Tax in the April of 1990 and the violent disturbances in Central London during the run-up to it.
Overall crime rate at an all-time high, reaching its peak around 1993-94, especially burglary and car crime. Also accompanied by mounting hysteria over juvenile delinquency, joy-riding, anti-social behaviour, drugs, Acid House music, video nasties, etc.
The first Iraq war in early 1991.
IRA terrorist attacks in various locations across England (London in particular).
Various riots between approximately July 1991 and July 1992 (in no particular order) in Salford, Gtr Mancs; Ely, Cardiff; Meadow Well, Sunderland; Blackbird Leys, Oxon; Bristol; Coventry; Handsworth, Birmingham; Kate's Hill, (Dudley), West Mids; Luton, Beds, and possibly other places.
Black Wednesday (September 1992)
Murder of James Bulger in Merseyside (February 1993), and the mass hysteria that followed. Still remains a pertinent topic today.
Ongoing moral panics about domestic violence and child abuse, which were already very much hot topics during most of the 80s.
ankietyjoe
03-03-20, 14:52
Yes I was scarred by knitted jumpers and bad haircuts.
For one thing The bullies latched on to that.
The other was my confidence and lack of self worth.
But it wasn't my parents fault, the money was just not there.
My parents also worked 50 hours a week plus and my dad had a trade and we lived with my grandparents so they could save just the down-payment which was 3 years.
It was tough for them and I'm not saying your parents didn't work hard Joe, but your parents wealth would definitely have made your life more comfortable.
We didn't even have central heating or double glazing, because they just couldn't afford it.
People tend to live beyond their means today and have grown up with debt that was induced by the banks.
You could have it all in the 80s, but it came with a price, debt!
Being poor or having little finances can induce many anxieties.
If you have money, you can seek private help in many ways and having a cushion of wealth does ease the mind, you have options.
And if you have money, you don't have to eat the shit*y lasagne. :huh:
Bad haircuts and bad jumpers aside, bullying happens irrespective of those things. You could have had an excellent haircut and designer clothes and the bullying types will latch onto something.
My Dad worked hard and my Mum was a lazy cow. She wanted more and more 'stuff', but constantly berated my Father for not being at home because he was working 6-7 days a week. She did nothing.
After the divorce we had nothing because she decided to remortgage the house and go into the exotic car business (what...) with an obvious crook who ended up stealing the money and disappearing with it. It sounds like an episode of Dynasty, but it was real. And when I say nothing, I mean nothing. Bailiffs, repossession threats....for years. I've seen both sides of the fence.
However, this is getting away from the point. Your experiences of the 70s were different than mine, but you can't easily live within your means these days simply because of the cost of housing, in the UK at least. Property prices and rent have increased faster than inflation and salaries, and have done for years now. The banks have levered these rises into existence because it suits them to do so. What it means is that where a family home would require one mortgage to be owned outright, it now means that people who own their own home are now feeling pressured to 'equity release' in order for their 40 year old children to get onto the property ladder. It requires both parents to work their arses off just to keep a roof over their head, and that wasn't always the case.
MyNameIsTerry
03-03-20, 18:20
Joe, you can live within your means but the issue is often because of where you live. In my city house prices are still reasonable. The issue with things like utilities and insurance span the divides across the UK but wages keep a good pace here as opposed to a place like London where you could buy a garage with what I could buy a house for in my city.
Like you say there are different challenges. Poverty was easily worse the further back you go but we have challenges to getting on in life and media.
Good to hear from you, Terry.
I think we are spoilt for choice now. "Austerity" today has a very different interpretation to poverty in the sixties and seventies. People expect and want more and more and living within your means seems to be a foreign concept for many people.
I really wouldn't want to be a millennial today.
MyNameIsTerry
04-03-20, 06:25
Good to hear from you, Terry.
I think we are spoilt for choice now. "Austerity" today has a very different interpretation to poverty in the sixties and seventies. People expect and want more and more and living within your means seems to be a foreign concept for many people.
I really wouldn't want to be a millennial today.
Thanks, pulisa :flowers: Been away for a few days so I stay away from the internet, phone, etc and concentrate on real life. Much less stressful!
Yes, I always raise an eyebrow when we get a report about living standards being worse for this generation compared to the boomers and before them. Lots of lovely central heating and inside toilets in today's poverty. Our houses are filled with stuff compared to the likes of my parents who had second hand clothes, bathed in a tub in the front room one after each other and washing by hand.
I often wonder if they base their comparisons on the middle classes upwards. Life was pretty bleak for the working classes.
Still I have some lovely memories of train journeys to the seaside and a childhood where kicking a football around was all we needed.
MyNameIsTerry
04-03-20, 06:34
Something i think is also important is the change in attitudes towards sexual crimes and abuses. Crimes against women were often unreported due to stigma and a failure of authorities to consider them crimes.
Only recently has child sexual abuse finally become a big issue. I can remember in my childhood how a parent complaining about their daughter having sex with a teacher meant he got a slap on the wrist as opposed to the sack and a prison sentence as he would today. I can remember the pervert teacher who liked watching the boys in the showers so we all timed it so he was still busy and yet the school did nothing despite everyone knowing.
And the existence of an openly pro child abuse rights group, until they were finally shut down, that was latching onto gay rights activism that only increased stigma about gay men on top of it all.
And attitudes to the LGBT+ community with Section 28.
Imagine having been affected by any of this and I know we do have people on here who have. At least now justice is moving in the right direction, public opinion has changed, stigma is changing and there is more support.
ankietyjoe
04-03-20, 09:45
Joe, you can live within your means but the issue is often because of where you live. In my city house prices are still reasonable. The issue with things like utilities and insurance span the divides across the UK but wages keep a good pace here as opposed to a place like London where you could buy a garage with what I could buy a house for in my city.
Like you say there are different challenges. Poverty was easily worse the further back you go but we have challenges to getting on in life and media.
I'm not sure I agree with you here because property prices are only reasonable relative to the South. They have still risen way beyond wages and inflation.
The average house price across the UK is around £230-240k right (or a 1 bed flat in Slough....really...). If a young family in a relatively affordable area wanted to buy a modest house, they'd need £25k in the bank, and have an income of way beyond £60k for this to be doable. This is just not feasible for the majority, and it's people striving to achieve this that is (in my opinion) laying down decades of stress. Even if they did manage to save the money and secure a mortgage, they will be committing to a minimum £1000 per month payment for most of the rest of their lives, and that's now interest rates are rock bottom. I worked in the property market in the late 80s and saw what happened when interest rates shot up. It was not pretty, and it will happen again one day.
These days it's becoming 'life by subscription' and people are becoming used to over extending and committing to massive financial outlay just to exist. In some respects it's even worse in the US because of the health care costs, but that's somewhat balanced by other outgoings being cheaper.
Should people not have the opportunity to take time out when they need to? I can't help but look at the social care that Scandinavian countries enjoy and wonder why we can't do the same. It doesn't breed apathy or laziness, people just have more time to figure out what they want/need to do.
Terry, that was one of my points....
If you are lucky to buy a house in London for cash, all well and good, but basically the majority of people had to scrimp and scrap hard for a down-payment on a property and it wasn't uncommon for 2 or 3 generations to live in the same household years ago. And like you say, there are always affordable areas. Luxuries were not around years ago. My mum used to hand-wash and it would take most of the day and that's when she had 3 jobs as well. There were no microwaves, dishwashers or car clean at the garage. It actually makes me think how they managed, but they did.
Joe, you know I respect your help and agree on many anxiety issues, but we have to remain to disagree on this topic.
Lencoboy, I realise the point of your thread and apologise if its gone off track a bit.
Just for info Joe, you can buy a house in Great Yarmouth for around £50,000 and get work with the same pay as London. As is with many other areas.
MyNameIsTerry
04-03-20, 12:49
I'm not sure I agree with you here because property prices are only reasonable relative to the South. They have still risen way beyond wages and inflation.
The average house price across the UK is around £230-240k right (or a 1 bed flat in Slough....really...). If a young family in a relatively affordable area wanted to buy a modest house, they'd need £25k in the bank, and have an income of way beyond £60k for this to be doable. This is just not feasible for the majority, and it's people striving to achieve this that is (in my opinion) laying down decades of stress. Even if they did manage to save the money and secure a mortgage, they will be committing to a minimum £1000 per month payment for most of the rest of their lives, and that's now interest rates are rock bottom. I worked in the property market in the late 80s and saw what happened when interest rates shot up. It was not pretty, and it will happen again one day.
These days it's becoming 'life by subscription' and people are becoming used to over extending and committing to massive financial outlay just to exist. In some respects it's even worse in the US because of the health care costs, but that's somewhat balanced by other outgoings being cheaper.
Should people not have the opportunity to take time out when they need to? I can't help but look at the social care that Scandinavian countries enjoy and wonder why we can't do the same. It doesn't breed apathy or laziness, people just have more time to figure out what they want/need to do.
What I'm saying is there is a difference between affluent areas, metropolitan areas, the countryside and places that are less desirable. The big problems lie in places like London but here things are very different. An £8k deposit is much more achievable with 2 people earning £35-40k between them.
Sure they have still risen but unlike the South where you need a massive deposit and equally massive salary that is not the case here. How easy is it for 2 people on minimum wage to get a place in London? Here everyone still does it.
ankietyjoe
04-03-20, 13:26
Terry, that was one of my points....
If you are lucky to buy a house in London for cash, all well and good, but basically the majority of people had to scrimp and scrap hard for a down-payment on a property and it wasn't uncommon for 2 or 3 generations to live in the same household years ago. And like you say, there are always affordable areas. Luxuries were not around years ago. My mum used to hand-wash and it would take most of the day and that's when she had 3 jobs as well. There were no microwaves, dishwashers or car clean at the garage. It actually makes me think how they managed, but they did.
Joe, you know I respect your help and agree on many anxiety issues, but we have to remain to disagree on this topic.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me in any way. I can only form opinions based on my own experience.
And yes, it has gone off topic a little bit, but I always see a strong link between long term, low level stress and a person's ability to cope with fresh stress.
And for the record, I NEVER paid cash for a property, my Father was able to 45 years ago simply because he was doing 'ok' and saved for a decade. My point is almost nobody can do that any more, it puts virtually 100% of the population on the treadmill.
I also don't see most forms of luxury as a luxury. The only real luxury I value is time.
And Terry, the vast majority of people don't have a massive salary in the South. Most property price increases are driven by investors and speculators. Property as pension etc.
MyNameIsTerry
04-03-20, 14:05
Yes, I know that. My point was that despite the boom and wages failing to keep pace there is also a massive divide between somewhere like London and where I live. The media talk about the worst places, as usual, when many above the M25 will be finding it as easy to get onto the property now as they did 20 years ago.
So it's not possible to discuss one side because it misses out those struggling in high price areas, not just the South, just as we can't say everyone needs a huge deposit. It's just not the case.
I agree with you about the stresses, Joe. My GAD certainly came from work pressure and bills/debt would have only made it much worse. A simpler life is very tempting and better than chasing status and careers.
MyNameIsTerry
04-03-20, 14:13
Terry, that was one of my points....
If you are lucky to buy a house in London for cash, all well and good, but basically the majority of people had to scrimp and scrap hard for a down-payment on a property and it wasn't uncommon for 2 or 3 generations to live in the same household years ago. And like you say, there are always affordable areas. Luxuries were not around years ago. My mum used to hand-wash and it would take most of the day and that's when she had 3 jobs as well. There were no microwaves, dishwashers or car clean at the garage. It actually makes me think how they managed, but they did.
Joe, you know I respect your help and agree on many anxiety issues, but we have to remain to disagree on this topic.
Lencoboy, I realise the point of your thread and apologise if its gone off track a bit.
Yes, Carnation. I want to make it clear that poverty today can still be very bad. One guy I knew from the mental health charity lived in one room with 1 set of clothes, no job and a 3 bar heater. He was pushed into poverty due to a marriage breakdown, his mental health and legal aid for divorce ending.
However we often see poverty lines that are above people with houses with lots in compared to previous generations. I've worked on fuel poverty in the past and seen how it actually covered our own employees and they weren't struggling. So it's never as simple as a media headline.
My dad bought his house at a much cheaper price than today. He worked 6-7 days a week to raise 3 kids with a holiday or two a year to the seaside. No fancy Nike trainers and computers came much later as we grew up. They had very high tax rates years ago and university was mostly for the loaded. Out of school at 15 and down the pit. No government cash to top people up.
But today it can be bad in it's different ways. I just get sick of the news saying it's worse now than 80 years ago. It's b0ll0cks.
Joe, I wasn't insinuating you paid cash, I was saying it hypothetically. I already stated it was your father who purchased a property in London for cash. And in my opinion you've singled out owning or not owning a property as being harder today than decades ago. There are more second home owners today than ever existed for a good portion of the population, which bodes well for their children's future who will benefit nicely. So I stick to my original point, because I remember many newly married couples decades ago living with their in laws for many years as well as sons and daughters not leaving the family home because they couldn't afford to buy anything on their own.
I may be wrong, but you seem to be a bit angry when you shout "NEVER", even though you say you don't mind people disagreeing or having their own opinion. :shrug:
I'm not sure what your message was about stress links though. Was that a general observation on the general public or are you attempting to be my therapist? :scared15:
I agree Terry, there are some very distressing situations with some people and their homes. You might even remember a situation I had myself when mum went into a home and as a consequence, it made me officially homeless.
But, I too wince when I hear news about how hard life is today compared to my parents generation and even more so, my grandparents generation.
I agree...I always wince whenever I hear how young people are so impoverished yet they think nothing of shelling out hundreds on tickets for music events etc..And as for "Gap Yahs" and travelling...
Lencoboy, I realise the point of your thread and apologise if its gone off track a bit.[/QUOTE]
No it hasn't gone off track at all.
In fact I'm now concerned that I may be the one responsible for starting a thread that could easily descend into venomous arguments and debates, though I really hope it doesn't. And I hope everyone remains as civil and respectful as possible, as it wasn't my intention to troll or anything.
Nevertheless, it is reassuring to see some level-headed responses in general so far, as people who constantly harp on about the 'good old days' and nearly everything being dreadful today, are amongst my biggest bugbears. True there are some pretty horrible and unfair things happening these days, and probably always will be, but as the likes of Pulisa, Carnation, Terry, etc have pointed out, and contrary to popular belief, I personally don't think we are worse off now than ever in the grand scheme of things, and (dare I say it) I am a lifelong Labour voter, even though I may not have always agreed with all of their policies.
To put things in perspective, one is probably still more likely to be, say, a victim of a road crash than to be struck down with Coronavirus, be killed or caught up in a terrorist attack or riot, be randomly assaulted or murdered by feral youths, etc. Although I am not in any way trivialising any of the issues I have just mentioned, it's the fact that we seem to have increasingly become slaves to the media over the past twenty-odd years or so, both online and with conventional printed publications and have a tendency to quake in our boots over certain events that may happen many miles from where we actually live that probably wouldn't have troubled the national headlines during the pre-Internet era, unless it was very very serious, of course.
ankietyjoe
04-03-20, 20:42
In fact I'm now concerned that I may be the one responsible for starting a thread that could easily descend into venomous arguments and debates, though I really hope it doesn't.
This is not the place for that. We can disagree and move on.
MyNameIsTerry
04-03-20, 21:15
No need to worry about arguments, Lencoboy. They do sometimes happen on here but we quickly move on and Admin will step in to cool things down anyway.
It's a very valid thread and it's not the first time this subject has come up.
I'm sure we all appreciate as a new member you worry you have caused some trouble but please don't. We are a friendly bunch on here.
Lencoboy, no need to worry :hugs:
Social media. Google. 24/7 news.
Because of these everyone thinks they're an expert on everything (including me obviously). As opposed to Socrates, who knew that he knew nothing.
One other thing, is that despite our problems we are in the wealthiest, most leisurely, most spoiled time period in human history. Or quite simply, we're getting soft.
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ankietyjoe
05-03-20, 14:29
One other thing, is that despite our problems we are in the wealthiest, most leisurely, most spoiled time period in human history. Or quite simply, we're getting soft.
I couldn't agree less with this, for a very specific reason. To achieve the wealth and leisure, we have to undertake activities that encourage exactly the kind of stress that creates the anxiety. It's long term, low level stress. It's got nothing to do with going soft, because the leisure and wealth have a cost.
If technology and access to it, which has become ubiquitous, is a measure of "wealth", then we have certainly advanced materially. However, I also agree with AJ that the creation of "wealth" generally involves stress - mentally, physically and emotionally. So psychologically I see little or no advancement.
To a large extent the creation of wealth has always involved "hard work" but it could be argued that, with time, "hard work" has morphed into psychological stress, which, as AJ points out, is counterproductive and detrimental in the overall measure of "wealth" and "leisure".
MyNameIsTerry
05-03-20, 15:10
I couldn't agree less with this, for a very specific reason. To achieve the wealth and leisure, we have to undertake activities that encourage exactly the kind of stress that creates the anxiety. It's long term, low level stress. It's got nothing to do with going soft, because the leisure and wealth have a cost.
I think you are both right(and KK who posted while I was typing). We are spoiled, we don't have the pressures of leaving school at 15 and going down the pit for the rest of our lives. We have many more choices. We have excellent healthcare. Our baselines have increased, we are mostly born into having a lot more.
But it is also true that there is a cost to chasing 'stuff'. Even if you don't you have to take on traditional worries about house, family, job, etc and there are some specific issues more relevant to people today based on where they live.
But I think the point Jray was making was that living the West we aren't in the kind of poverty developing nations are. We take a lot for granted.
I wonder what the stress of being in poverty with no healthcare and looming wars does to people? In programmes you can see they are happier with themselves because they see life as more than perhaps we do as we are swamped by the 'stuff'. But they also have a very hard life at the same time.
I couldn't agree less with this, for a very specific reason. To achieve the wealth and leisure, we have to undertake activities that encourage exactly the kind of stress that creates the anxiety. It's long term, low level stress. It's got nothing to do with going soft, because the leisure and wealth have a cost.You're welcome to disagree. I don't think it's true though. I'm working "really hard" right now with my conference preparations that may or may not ever happen anyways. Lot of stress. But most of the day my butt is sitting in a chair and my heart rate is on the 60s.
I will take this kind of stress over what past generations have gone through. I will take not having to physically spend my day every day searching for hunting or growing my food just so I can survive. I will take not working in hot mines breaking my back 80 hours a week.
And as for wealth, I don't mean having technology. I mean actual money. There are less people living in poverty now than at any time in history. There are less people starving now than at any time in history. There are more people with running water and electricity than at any time in history. Many of us have bigger houses, we have cars, we have common possessions, that past generations would have considered wanton luxuries. We are incredibly lucky to be living at this time (although hopefully future generations will have it better than us!)
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ankietyjoe
06-03-20, 08:29
I will take this kind of stress over what past generations have gone through. I will take not having to physically spend my day every day searching for hunting or growing my food just so I can survive. I will take not working in hot mines breaking my back 80 hours a week.
The vast majority of humans that have ever lived didn't work in hot mines for 80 hours a week. And spending the day hunting for/growing or scavenging food is literally what we are designed to do. Sitting in a chair with a low heart rate is monumentally bad for us (as proven by countless studies).
And again, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. We each have our own observations and experiences on this.
I wonder whether the hunter gatherers actually enjoyed hunting and gathering? They wouldn't have known any better and didn't have access to social media...Who knows how stressed/bored they were? I would imagine they were permanently stressed and counsellors weren't invented..
ankietyjoe
06-03-20, 09:31
I wonder whether the hunter gatherers actually enjoyed hunting and gathering? They wouldn't have known any better and didn't have access to social media...Who knows how stressed/bored they were? I would imagine they were permanently stressed and counsellors weren't invented..
I could not possibly disagree more with this. It's effectively saying that for 99% of human existence, we were all stressed and/or bored.
Stress is good for us, it promotes adaptation and resistance, but this can only happen when the stressor ends. The problem (as I see it) is that stress is increasingly a permanent fixture in our day to day lives right now, and we have less down time for the system to repair and adapt.
Of course there are benefits to modern life and I have no desire to go and live in a mud hut, but there has to be a better balance between what our bodies are designed to do, and what we're actually doing to them.
Stress is only good for you in the right format or in small quantities. Ongoing amounts of stress is not. For example... Overworking, being a carer, worrying about where your next penny is coming from, being in a futile home, suffering from a debilitating illness, being afraid, I could go on.
Small amounts of stress like learning something new and stressing about getting it right in small doses has its benefits.
I also have to mention that a lot of people take too much on or set their goals too high with great expectations.
Although some people have had no choice and are left in stressful situations to no fault of their own.
The difference between then and now in my opinion, is families seemed to be more close knit and stick together, where as today its very much do your own thing and keep yourself to yourself.
I've just moved in to a new area, well its been a year now and my surrounding neighbours haven't or won't even give me a good morning or a wave.
That wasn't the case years ago in my experience. We knew and spoke to a good 20+ neighbours and helped each other. Families visited more and shopkeepers were more personal.
And yes, I could imagine a hunter for food many, many years ago becoming stressed on whether he could provide food for his family and not much to entertain you in the times between.
Not even a good soap opera or two to watch whilst masticating whatever has been gathered that day!
MyNameIsTerry
09-03-20, 16:42
I wonder whether the hunter gatherers actually enjoyed hunting and gathering? They wouldn't have known any better and didn't have access to social media...Who knows how stressed/bored they were? I would imagine they were permanently stressed and counsellors weren't invented..
Not many I would imagine. It was just life and people's views of it would be different and they would still want better and get bladders on mead!
Whilst a more natural life is appealing I think their is some rose tinting glasses involved too. You may not be as stressed about pointless stuff or feel under daily pressures due to chasing 'stuff' but I doubt it was a stressful life fearing invasion and so little law to protect people. Women were an underclass to be abused and anyone different feared or just mistreated.
I think we look at it through rose tinted glasses because we assume the luxuries of our positive modern improvements would be preserved. That's a very different place to going back in history.
Not many I would imagine. It was just life and people's views of it would be different and they would still want better and get bladders on mead!
Whilst a more natural life is appealing I think their is some rose tinting glasses involved too. You may not be as stressed about pointless stuff or feel under daily pressures due to chasing 'stuff' but I doubt it was a stressful life fearing invasion and so little law to protect people. Women were an underclass to be abused and anyone different feared or just mistreated.
I think we look at it through rose tinted glasses because we assume the luxuries of our positive modern improvements would be preserved. That's a very different place to going back in history.
Exactly, Terry.
I personally think too many of us like to look back at the past with rose tinted glasses. Remembering the better aspects of life in those distant times, but often forgetting the not-so-good stuff that often went on. I certainly wouldn't want to go back to the days to being a kid fearful of his/her dad arriving back home and beating the living daylights out of him/her with a belt or slipper, and his/her mom being subjected to the proverbial 'wife-battering' for not having his dinner on the table ready for him and the husband/
dad often being heavily drunk at the same time. Nor would I relish the thought of quaking in my boots at school all day long in fear of being brutalised in the toilets by bullies, and worst of all, by perpetually angry, cane-happy head teachers and not forgetting the classical sadist, slap-happy, nonce-case PE teachers!!
BTW, I was not referring to my own parents, nor any specific incidents at any of the schools I attended.
I could not possibly disagree more with this. It's effectively saying that for 99% of human existence, we were all stressed and/or bored.
Stress is good for us, it promotes adaptation and resistance, but this can only happen when the stressor ends. The problem (as I see it) is that stress is increasingly a permanent fixture in our day to day lives right now, and we have less down time for the system to repair and adapt.
Of course there are benefits to modern life and I have no desire to go and live in a mud hut, but there has to be a better balance between what our bodies are designed to do, and what we're actually doing to them.
Perhaps in the worst-case scenario where we have to stay at home more for a week or two due to the Coronavirus (in order to 'delay' its peak) it could ironically turn out to be a blessing to some by bringing us 'down time' to repair, adapt and reflect. Not only in the sense of a 'break', but also to make us value and appreciate our usual routines once things start returning to normal again, which I'm sure they will eventually.
I know a quite a lot of water has passed under the bridge since I first started this thread back in early March soon after joining this forum, but on Christmas Day I came across this article that I have already posted on the main Covid thread, which kind of sums up the so-called 'mean-world syndrome'.
And it's from a fully legit source (CNN).
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/25/Europe/2020-improving-world-recap-scli-intl/index.html
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