View Full Version : Time lockdown will last?
The Times tomorrow suggesting we will go with herd immunity as we risk damaging mental health and jobs for the younger. Anybody got the link to the article but most papers going with the lockdown will come under pressure to end it soon by April 21st? Just interested to hear what people think if that’s the right way to go?
travelgirl77
03-04-20, 22:27
Oh, that is interesting. I do not have a link to that article, but I did read an article the other day that was talking about how Italians are already struggling with the impact of the government shutdown on their livelihoods. I was expecting the article to talk about the virus and death toll, but instead it focused on the lack of available food, untenable living situations, lack of money, etc. I am of the mind that there is no possible way we can extend this lockdown (U.S.) for months on end...it just cannot happen. I think that is one reason they are trying to prepare us for wearing masks in public. We cannot wait on a vaccine before we open our economy back up so they are going to have to get better at managing this....which angers me to no end, as I feel like they had more time and twiddled it away as if it was someone else's problem.
I'm in the UK so I can only speculate about us. I think 10 Downing Street will announce a 3-week extension on the 13th which takes us to May 4th. Hopefully we'll have peaked by then so I'd imagine they'd then slowly start to relax lockdown measures. I can't imagine total normality for quite some time, though.
I get the feeling it'll never end.
I would tend to occur with Jase. When the lock down started they were speculating that UK peak would be around Easter/end of April. The way the stats are going up it seems to fit - on a trajectory like Italy and Spain and we are are about 3 weeks behind them.
Either the UK government gets its backside in gear and starts antibody testing to rule put the majority of the population who have had it and can get back into the work arena, or we go out in masks no matter what the state of their efficacy.
Antibody testing is the key. Get the curve down, test for immunity, isolate as much as reasonably possible the more vulnerable in our population and take it from there.
Keep in mind that treatments are being developed all the time as well. Keep it steady until a vaccine is ready for distribution.
MyNameIsTerry
04-04-20, 04:35
The curve is starting to change but right now the effects of recent strategy aren't showing so time will tell.
On the point of Italy, they may be able to access emergency funds via the European Commission. I suspect the whole EU will need to decide who can pay more in to help with this. They were already arguing over the gaps we are creating by leaving so it will just bump that debate even more.
Spain will be the same. They have a big tourism industry and have recently been recovering from their unemployment woes. This will shatter that.
I can't see it ending next week for us. Why see improvement and then just kick start the mess all over again? They will probably extend and look towards phases where people are allowed to do more and industry ramping up again. But should it worsen they will likely revert back to earlier stricter phases.
I would tend to occur with Jase. When the lock down started they were speculating that UK peak would be around Easter/end of April. The way the stats are going up it seems to fit - on a trajectory like Italy and Spain and we are are about 3 weeks behind them.
Either the UK government gets its backside in gear and starts antibody testing to rule put the majority of the population who have had it and can get back into the work arena, or we go out in masks no matter what the state of their efficacy.
I agree but the scientists have stressed that too many discrepancies with accuracy of the antibody testing and that no testing is better than bad testing until accuracy can be ensured. Encouraging to know that clinical trials are underway re medication / vaccine etc. The outcomes of those will be worth watching.
But I don't think it will be lifted anytime this month. And I think if idiots head to parks and coasts etc this weekend, we could see them enforced more rigidly. There were reports last night of caravans and trailers heading out to Cornwall / Norfolk / Wales.........totally stupid!!
WiseMonkey
04-04-20, 09:36
I don't live in the UK but it's my understanding that the virus has not peaked and may not do so for several weeks. Until this time and until community spread has been contained, coming out of lock down would be highly risky.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/health-secretary-says-remarks-over-coronavirus-peak-over-interpreted
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 12:25
My feeling is that it will most likely last until late May (the Whitsun holiday), before the damage to the UK economy becomes serious. Only then do I expect to see a lifting of restrictions. Although I can imagine there'll be some whinging from the 'patriots' over the extended Bank Holiday planned for the 75th anniversary of VE-Day. Perhaps bump that on to August, when the mostly-forgotten VJ-Day can be commemorated too.
It's melodramatic, but IMO it's straight choice between "stay in and live" or "go outside and die".
The biggest problem is that there are an awful lot of stupid and selfish people in this country: but also an awful lot of people who are being hit very hard financially.
ankietyjoe
04-04-20, 13:21
I get the feeling it'll never end.
Give it a rest. You're becoming predictable and boring.
Our lockdown has just been extended until May 1st. In this update our Governor looked forward talking about October in Ohio and football games without saying outright that we are going to lose the whole summer.
The dr who updates daily with him stressed that once we peak, it's a slow road down and it must be done right so we don't go backward and rev it up again.
I'd love to think May 1st we could wash our hands of this but truly I think we'll get a new extension of lockdown.
I just don't know how we will recovery our economy.
I pray every day to hear the news that a breakthrough has been made in a vaccine or medication.
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 14:43
I can't help but believe the US situation - and its response to it - will be seen entirely by the psychopath Trump as "what will serve my re-election best?"
I reckon that after this UK 3 week period there will be another 3 week extension too.
I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm not sure schools will reopen again before the new academic year.
MyNameIsTerry
04-04-20, 16:00
I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm not sure schools will reopen again before the new academic year.
Could they shift it forward or you that be a massive exercise? Just thinking they are losing a lot of their education this year and it's going to be tough to catch up.
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:00
From elsewhere:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-lockdown-could-be-relaxed-in-weeks-says-top-govt-adviser-11968358
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:02
Could they shift it forward or you that be a massive exercise? Just thinking they are losing a lot of their education this year and it's going to be tough to catch up.
Some schools are offering remote learning, but how many is another guess. I noticed the Mid-Hants Railway is offering remote learning for smaller children via https://www.watercressline.co.uk/article.php/1359/learning-on-the-line
We're doing remote learning at the college; it's a challenge, but it's fun.
I don't know any schools that haven't been making some sort of an effort.
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:10
We're doing remote learning at the college; it's a challenge, but it's fun.
I don't know any schools that haven't been making some sort of an effort.
Downloadable worksheets or a platform like Zoom?
A mixture, actually. Learners can log into the virtual classroom and access worksheets, quizzes and videos, but there's also a lot of teaching going on via Zoom. They've been submitting assignments via online dropboxes for years, in any case, and we have MS Office 365 so all learners can access versions of the standard Office software. It's a work in progress, helped by the fact that a lot of the big edtech companies are offering their services for free.
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:15
Interesting - what sort of participation rates are you getting?
Honestly? We're getting better participation than when we try and ask them to attend ;)
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:20
:roflmao:
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:22
Joking apart, do you think this is because the students can self-pace to some extent and fit it around what they wish to do?
I'd love to think they have that much self-awareness, but my gut instinct is that it's a combination of novelty value and the sheer boredom of being indoors away from their mates.
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:36
I'd love to think they have that much self-awareness, but my gut instinct is that it's a combination of novelty value and the sheer boredom of being indoors away from their mates.
:roflmao::roflmao:
:roflmao::roflmao:
I think so, yes. Honestly, I'm not sure schools will reopen again before the new academic year.
I have heard that they are planning a possible reopen in June, ahead of a possible 2nd wave. Why not just keep them shut?!
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 16:41
I have heard that they are planning a possible reopen in June, ahead of a possible 2nd wave. Why not just keep them shut?!
That would coincide with what used to be "O" level season when I was at school, post- what would have been Whitsun half term.
WiseMonkey
04-04-20, 22:12
I can't help but believe the US situation - and its response to it - will be seen entirely by the psychopath Trump as "what will serve my re-election best?"
I agree, and this could come back to bite DT in his narcissistic backside! New York is the largest state to be hit and it's Democratic, so in DT's mind it's not that important, likewise Washington state (Seattle). But as covid spreads southward (there are large pockets in Florida already), the elderly Republican voters will hit hard. Then what will happen to his voter base!
The Obama administration put a strategic plan in force in case of a pandemic and Trump disbanded it! There has to be some karmic come back somewhere along the line, how can a president (in this day and age), sacrifice thousands of his populace for the sake of his re-election campaign. :lac:
Pamplemousse
04-04-20, 23:12
I agree, and this could come back to bite DT in his narcissistic backside! New York is the largest state to be hit and it's Democratic, so in DT's mind it's not that important, likewise Washington state (Seattle). But as covid spreads southward (there are large pockets in Florida already), the elderly Republican voters will hit hard. Then what will happen to his voter base!
The Obama administration put a strategic plan in force in case of a pandemic and Trump abandoned it! There has to be some karmic come back somewhere along the line, how can a president (in this day and age), sacrifice thousands of his populace for the sake of his re-election campaign. :lac:
You answered your own question when you described Trump as a narcissist, of which he is a textbook example. In years to come picture dictionaries will have a photo of him next to the word.
Trump is such an oaf. He urges people to wear masks, but won't do so himself as 'he just doesn't want to.' Great way to set an example when you are doling out advice.
If he is worried about covering up his stunning good looks, he really need not. He would actually be doing the world a favour, giving us some respite from the sight of his orange face.
MyNameIsTerry
05-04-20, 04:38
I tend to regard all politicians as a mixture of narcissists, egomaniacs, conmen, thieves, etc. I'm not sure any of them are in it for reasons that go beyond themselves.
But they all need to be very careful politicizing this as it can bite you big time. Aside from being immoral.
Trump knew about COVID way back in January:mad:and did sweet F/A and called the new test drug A beautiful thing! the horrible w a n ker.
Calling it the China Virus has created anyone who looks Chinese to be bashed,it is happening here as well.:mad:
Pamplemousse
05-04-20, 10:13
Trump is such an oaf. He urges people to wear masks, but won't do so himself as 'he just doesn't want to.' Great way to set an example when you are doling out advice.
If he is worried about covering up his stunning good looks, he really need not. He would actually be doing the world a favour, giving us some respite from the sight of his orange face.
"The Nectarine Nero" as I've seen him described :roflmao:
Pamplemousse
05-04-20, 10:16
Trump knew about COVID way back in January:mad:and did sweet F/A and called the new test drug A beautiful thing! the horrible w a n ker.
Calling it the China Virus has created anyone who looks Chinese to be bashed,it is happening here as well.:mad:
This is the reason we stopped naming viruses after their place of origin. I imagine some of the Colonials would not have been very happy if we'd called H1N1 "American Pig Flu" by that measure.
Not the Secret Service....The Quack Team!
Really? Do we seriously have to make this a political bashing thread? I'm not a fan either but it's an exhausting, upsetting conversation and does ZERO to help support any of us trying to feel a shred of hope.
Really? Do we seriously have to make this a political bashing thread? I'm not a fan either but it's an exhausting, upsetting conversation and does ZERO to help support any of us trying to feel a shred of hope.
Totally agree with you Nancy.
Indeed - whoever is in charge in whatever country - all leaders pronounce on the advice given by medical and scientific advisors. BJ quickly did a u-turn when his scientific advisors screwed up with the 'herd immunity' theory and realised it was too risky given the public panic already generated by rapid spread. The report issued by WHO following the China outbreak contained advice from the Chinese (whether you believe them or not) to do a total lockdown as in Wuhan but WHO decided that the West would not wear such drastic curtailment to public and economic freedom. Hence we are in the current situation everywhere in the West. Also too difficult to lockdown such large areas over several countries. Even in CHina a few million scarpered out of Wuhan when the state locked it down ... only to spread the virus even further afield.
I hear Italy may be at peak. If that’s true and the UK is at peak soon in a week perhaps by the summer things will be back to normal?
MyNameIsTerry
05-04-20, 21:09
Yep, people keep attributing herd immunity to Boris. It was the chief scientific officer who was discussing this and the media can with it.
The government are taking their decisions based on the advice of medical & scientific advisors. Within minutes it will be carved up by the various biased media outlets who call in their own experts, often without little information provided as they continue to guess to "create" some news.
Pamplemousse
05-04-20, 21:47
I note Johnson has been hospitalised. Whilst I dislike the man and what he stands for with a passion, I genuinely wish him a speedy recovery.
I keep hearing this could go on from anything from 1 month to people saying 5 years before normal live. Surely it won’t go on that long?
WiseMonkey
11-04-20, 04:47
I keep hearing this could go on from anything from 1 month to people saying 5 years before normal live. Surely it won’t go on that long?
It will go on for as long as it takes to get control of the virus and hopefully stamp it out. If your country has a large population and the virus is out of control (which is most countries) then the lockdown could go on for ages (who can say)! This is a war, a viral war and you wouldn't want to come out and get shot down or have it happen to others... be patient, be kind to yourself and others.
Yes my worry is it never goes back to normal and shops go bust, tv and movies stop being made and over all people’s mental health is poor. I feel this has to get fixed soon or the world is damaged forever. My worry is life is never the same again and we have to live in fear of this virus? Perhaps it will cut life expectancy? Perhaps they won’t find a cure?
Yes my worry is it never goes back to normal and shops go bust, tv and movies stop being made and over all people’s mental health is poor. I feel this has to get fixed soon or the world is damaged forever. My worry is life is never the same again and we have to live in fear of this virus? Perhaps it will cut life expectancy? Perhaps they won’t find a cure?
Even if no vaccine is found, which is very unlikely, people will in time develop natural immunity. Worldwide, 1.6 million people have been confirmed as positive for the virus, there will be many more unconfirmed. The vast vast majority of infected people will survive and have some degree of immunity.
There will also be improvements in medication and certain drug therapies that will combat the virus better. Right now, it’s only about 5 months old and our knowledge is improving daily. Drug trails are going on worldwide, and these take time. In about 3-4 months we will start to see medications being approved and actually, it wouldn’t be that surprising if the medication to treat Covid-19 already existed in some shape or form.
It’s tough right now but things will improve, of that there is no doubt.
...and let us remember, this is nowhere on the scale really of 'tough from times gone by'.
Panicattacka
11-04-20, 15:22
...and let us remember, this is nowhere on the scale really of 'tough from times gone by'.
Too right. I've started reading Daniel Defoe's, "A Journal of the Plague Year", which describes the great plague of London in 1665. Compared to what people went through back then, people in rich countries today are still living on Easy Street, despite Covid.
MyNameIsTerry
11-04-20, 15:47
...and let us remember, this is nowhere on the scale really of 'tough from times gone by'.
Too right. I've started reading Daniel Defoe's, "A Journal of the Plague Year", which describes the great plague of London in 1665. Compared to what people went through back then, people in rich countries today are still living on Easy Street, despite Covid.
Indeed.
To be honest it hardly compares to many of the people around the world today either, we can't go to see a film but at least we don't have to walk miles a day to risk our lives with dirty drinking water or AK-47/machete wielding nutjobs with their civil wars.
Indeed.
To be honest it hardly compares to many of the people around the world today either, we can't go to see a film but at least we don't have to walk miles a day to risk our lives with dirty drinking water or AK-47/machete wielding nutjobs with their civil wars.
Yep Terry,I am with you and another that I worry about is the homeless how are they supposed to shower and get food,
imagine living on skid row in Los Angeles where god knows how many are infected with this terrible virus.
We are very lucky in our countries.
Yes we are and no matter what hardship we are going through now it's nothing to compared to what others in less fortunate countries and in less fortunate circumstances go through each and every day.
MyNameIsTerry
12-04-20, 15:45
Yep Terry,I am with you and another that I worry about is the homeless how are they supposed to shower and get food,
imagine living on skid row in Los Angeles where god knows how many are infected with this terrible virus.
We are very lucky in our countries.
They will be the forgotten. I wonder what their chances are with such poor conditions to rest?
Wasn't there a news article about Las Vegas showing them all sleeping in tents (with no flooring) on the car parks? If we can convert commercial buildings into field hospitals why can't we use all those empty hotels in some makeshift way? It's not like they need to put them up in the finest suites with a butler!
Yes there was Terry:weep:They already are the forgotten ones.
In your country why doesn’t Queenie open up some of her grand Castles,not only for the poor and homeless but too use them as hospitals she could sell off some of the Crown Jewels to help pay for Incubators and PPE all those gilded carriages must be worth a mint too.
Your country they are now calling the epicentre of Europe. Another I am pissed off with is the bloody Catholic Church with all their millions and real estate:mad:I will say no more they spent millions to get Cardinal George Pell out of prison..grrr.
Yes there was Terry:weep:They already are the forgotten ones.
In your country why doesn’t Queenie open up some of her grand Castles,not only for the poor and homeless but too use them as hospitals she could sell off some of the Crown Jewels to help pay for Incubators and PPE all those gilded carriages must be worth a mint too.
Your country they are now calling the epicentre of Europe. Another I am pissed off with is the bloody Catholic Church with all their millions and real estate:mad:I will say no more they spent millions to get Cardinal George Pell out of prison..grrr.
Epicentre of Europe?
Perhaps deaths-wise we may be teetering on the brink of that status, but not sure about overall CV cases though?
I'm sure I read somewhere that the peak of confirmed active CV cases here in the UK was estimated to be sometime between the 12th and 17th of April, though as always they keep chopping and changing the stat count. Only yesterday they started making CV cases and deaths in non-hospital settings (eg care homes) accountable for the stats, which will inevitably (for better or worse) inflate them all the more.
I do honestly believe our CV stats count has been one of the most hodge-podge in the world ever since the virus first entered our shores at the end of January.
...and let us remember, this is nowhere on the scale really of 'tough from times gone by'.
Most definitely, Carys.
It really bugs me when certain people keep trying to make comparisons with the Spanish Flu pandemic that started from the end of the First World War in 1918. Whilst we should absolutely learn from the lessons of history, the current situation we are facing with the CV pandemic today is far-removed from that of 100 years ago when and where medicals have advanced almost beyond recognition (at least in the developed world) within the last 30-odd years alone, never mind the last 100 years!!
And that is all despite the chronic underfunding our NHS has faced for many, many years, under successive govts.
WiseMonkey
16-04-20, 22:02
Most definitely, Carys.
It really bugs me when certain people keep trying to make comparisons with the Spanish Flu pandemic that started from the end of the First World War in 1918. Whilst we should absolutely learn from the lessons of history, the current situation we are facing with the CV pandemic today is far-removed from that of 100 years ago when and where medicals have advanced almost beyond recognition (at least in the developed world) within the last 30-odd years alone, never mind the last 100 years!!
In relation to covid, the huge problem for most countries is that their governments were caught napping, they dithered and didn't respond to lockdown early enough. By the time the virus took hold in the community, the spread was so rampant that no medical advancements were going to change the staggering numbers of unnecessary deaths that have happened. I guess for many governments it was a case of economy verses the health of the people and sadly those most vulnerable became the sacrificial lamb :weep:
MyNameIsTerry
17-04-20, 04:42
Epicentre of Europe?
Perhaps deaths-wise we may be teetering on the brink of that status, but not sure about overall CV cases though?
I'm sure I read somewhere that the peak of confirmed active CV cases here in the UK was estimated to be sometime between the 12th and 17th of April, though as always they keep chopping and changing the stat count. Only yesterday they started making CV cases and deaths in non-hospital settings (eg care homes) accountable for the stats, which will inevitably (for better or worse) inflate them all the more.
I do honestly believe our CV stats count has been one of the most hodge-podge in the world ever since the virus first entered our shores at the end of January.
I suspect that epicentre point is because The Guardian ran with that rather dodgy calc the other week.
MyNameIsTerry
17-04-20, 04:50
Yes there was Terry:weep:They already are the forgotten ones.
In your country why doesn’t Queenie open up some of her grand Castles,not only for the poor and homeless but too use them as hospitals she could sell off some of the Crown Jewels to help pay for Incubators and PPE all those gilded carriages must be worth a mint too.
Your country they are now calling the epicentre of Europe. Another I am pissed off with is the bloody Catholic Church with all their millions and real estate:mad:I will say no more they spent millions to get Cardinal George Pell out of prison..grrr.
Yep, lots of rich people. So much empty property around earning money for the rich like in London. I'm not for taking this off them but in times of crisis I do think if you have more you may have to feel the pinch off the government.
I agree on the church. The Catholic church is very fond of cover ups for sexual predators. But then even one of the two popes blamed child abuse of them being around Randy priests with no outlet. Vile man. Look at Ireland where the church abused women for a long time and still refuses to cooperate with a government enquiry over those "launderies" where they stuck not only women they disproved of but any women someone wanted to push out and into a life where they has little chance of survival.
The Queen could do more. I don't know what her involvement is other than speeches and shepherding the crest around. Maybe she is involved in fundraising? But yes plenty of property that can be used. I can certainly think of Frogmore Cottage being used to house people who need rather than her errant grandson shoes busy making a global planner of himself.
In relation to covid, the huge problem for most countries is that their governments were caught napping, they dithered and didn't respond to lockdown early enough. By the time the virus took hold in the community, the spread was so rampant that no medical advancements were going to change the staggering numbers of unnecessary deaths that have happened. I guess for many governments it was a case of economy verses the health of the people and sadly those most vulnerable became the sacrificial lamb :weep:
I agree with you there, Wise Monkey.
Govts on both sides of the Atlantic were initially hesitant to enforce lockdowns, obviously for fears of crashing the economy, which would have been pretty much inevitable anyway, lockdowns or not. Allegedly, Trump seemed to be in denial over the whole thing from the off, and is now foolishly shunning the WHO by withdrawing funding, which IMO smacks of deflection from his own alleged failures. Although it is unfortunate to happen to anyone at all, over here the virus came up and smacked our PM right in the face and ultimately hammered home the fact that literally no one is untouchable, regardless of status, ability, or wealth.
Pamplemousse
17-04-20, 08:47
Well, we now know that here in the UK it is for at least another three weeks. So... Whitsun Bank Holiday or three weeks after that, taking us to the middle of June now? I'm beginning to think the latter.
WiseMonkey
17-04-20, 09:34
Well, we now know that here in the UK it is for at least another three weeks. So... Whitsun Bank Holiday or three weeks after that, taking us to the middle of June now? I'm beginning to think the latter.
I think the UK will be in lockdown longer than June as the virus hasn't peeked yet, community spread will be rife.
I agree WiseMonkey.
And Lock-down will be a slow ease back to freedom.
ankietyjoe
17-04-20, 10:46
In our house we know that many schools around here aren't planning to open again until September.
My observations of what's going on lead me to conclude that lockdown will be reversed slowly and incrementally as Carnation points out.
I can't see it being possible for things being 'normal' again until well into 2021.
Govts on both sides of the Atlantic were initially hesitant to enforce lockdowns, obviously for fears of crashing the economy, which would have been pretty much inevitable anyway, lockdowns or not.
Why do you think that, Lenco? I ask because Sweden never imposed a lockdown and their economy remains open. Of course the world economic downturn will affect them to some degree too but millions have not lost their jobs and businesses.
No they didn’t KK but the death rate is higher there opposed too Denmark who did go into lockdown.
Hope you are well :)
ankietyjoe
17-04-20, 11:46
Why do you think that, Lenco? I ask because Sweden never imposed a lockdown and their economy remains open. Of course the world economic downturn will affect them to some degree too but millions have not lost their jobs and businesses.
A sparsely populated country with an economy that isn't reliant on global markets isn't comparable to the likes of UK or USA.
It's also too early for this to have had any REAL impact on the economy yet other than the aforementioned stock/money markets which are little more than large scale gambling, and that gambling is on confidence. If confidence is low, the markets suffer. None of it is 'real'.
In six months we'll know what sort of impact it's had on the part of the economy that affects the general population.
A sparsely populated country with an economy that isn't reliant on global markets isn't comparable to the likes of UK or USA.
It's also too early for this to have had any REAL impact on the economy yet other than the aforementioned stock/money markets which are little more than large scale gambling, and that gambling is on confidence. If confidence is low, the markets suffer. None of it is 'real'.
In six months we'll know what sort of impact it's had on the part of the economy that affects the general population.
What planet are you living on, Joe? Tens of thousands of small businesses will be decimated by the time this lockdown is over. How will people pay their bills and mortgage? I'm not talking about stock markets and banks :lac:
No they didn’t KK but the death rate is higher there opposed too Denmark who did go into lockdown.
Hope you are well :)
Fine thanks, Lola. Hope you're keeping safe too ;)
ankietyjoe
17-04-20, 17:51
What planet are you living on, Joe? Tens of thousands of small businesses will be decimated by the time this lockdown is over.
In six months we'll know what sort of impact it's had on the part of the economy that affects the general population.
Same planet as you :shrug:
My post was mostly addressing your comments about the Swedish economy, which is very different than ours. Their economy is based pretty much entirely on export of goods.
I'm illustrating the point that the money/stock markets can be affected immediately, and actual business will be affected later.
The UK will remain in lockdown - if you can even call it that - until the medical advisors driving government policy stop dithering and fence-sitting and get their backsides into gear and decide on a rational course of action with regard to isolating the virus hotspots and clamping down hard on movement of people. They also need to fully engage in trialling some of the treatments that various research labs have put forward, including anti body tests (regardless of what the WHO spouts about not relying on them - after all the WHO track record of action during this pandemic is nothing to shout about). If we don't start trialling these measures we are never going to know.
Current thinking is that community transmission is showing signs of easing off and the increase of infection rates is actually in the NHS and care homes and other medical environments - inevitable when you think about it since they are the only ones who are constantly in contact with the virus and travelling back and forth between hospital and home - too much opportunity for the virus to keep shifting.
The other thing of concern - and which the government seems reluctant to address -is the fact that we are still allowing people back into the country (and out of the country) with no forced quarantine. Sheer madness allowing constant possible transmission of virus back and forth across continents and countries. We are even importing European labour to help on the farms with apparently no regulation other than to ask them to fill out a health questionnaire when they get off the flight - and these unfortunate bods face the prospect of infection in the UK and then taking it back to their home countries.
WiseMonkey you are so fortunate to be in NZ where every effort has been made to protect inward transmission and put a lid on it. The UK had the perfect opportunity being an island to have acted in like fashion and stamped this down much earlier. Lets hope the scientists in Oxford get going on that vaccine by or before September, otherwise we face the prospect of being locked ion until Christmas!!
WiseMonkey
18-04-20, 03:24
WiseMonkey you are so fortunate to be in NZ where every effort has been made to protect inward transmission and put a lid on it. The UK had the perfect opportunity being an island to have acted in like fashion and stamped this down much earlier. Lets hope the scientists in Oxford get going on that vaccine by or before September, otherwise we face the prospect of being locked ion until Christmas!!
Hi yes I am fortunate to live in NZ and there was some fortunate circumstances too, as I see them...
* The virus was later arriving here, so govt. had more time to reflect on what was happening overseas and to prepare.
* NZ is an isolated island in the South Pacific so borders are easy to shut down.
* NZ has a small population 5 million so easier to organise/control/population fall into line.
* NZ has a centrally led government with 1 parliament so the orders come straight from the top and quickly when required.
* The PM (Jacinda Ardern) and her advisers formulated a plan (different from other countries) which they knew would work for NZ.
* The govt. went fast and early giving the populace 3 days warning before total lockdown was enforced.
* The plan was to stamp out the virus.
* NZ has a Labour led government (central/left) with an strong minded, intelligent leader who made the welfare of her populace a priority over the economy.
* The govt. had the support of the National Party (central/right) so no quibbling over the matter.
* The PM gave clear, precise, direct instructions and information with no mixed messages or backing down.
* Two weeks into lockdown only NZers returning from overseas could enter the country. They have to go into enforced quarantine for 2 weeks, the govt has purchased accommodation next to the airport for this purpose.
* NZ is mainly an exporting country and can produce most of it's own food for the populace, so no issue of food shortages.
Fortunately because of the above, most of the covid19 cases have been from people returning from overseas and those who have had contact with them. We still have 16 clusters (over 10 people in each) within the community but they are contained. Most of the clusters are connected to one another and 3 of them are rest homes, where most of the deaths have occurred. All of the deaths (11 so far) have been elderly people with underlying health conditions. Sadly more deaths are expected.
The numbers of confirmed, daily cases of covid have been falling, yesterday (17/04) there were 8 new cases but today there are 13. Numbers from some of the clusters are still increasing.
The govt health teams have started target testing of people (supermarket staff and shoppers in various cities) to ascertain if there is any unknown community spread. Most of these cities have been where there are contained covid clusters. All of these tests are voluntary and have been very popular. All of those tested have returned negative, which is very promising. There is further testing happening in Auckland today which is our largest city of 1.6 million and has a couple of the larger clusters, so will be interesting to see what transpires!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12325774 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12325774)
PS. I saw on the news tonight that scientists in Oxford have high hopes of having a vaccine ready by September, trials are happening at present, so here's hoping :)
No guarantee that this vaccine will work though, WM.
I think we just have a partial lockdown in the UK. Still plenty of people out and about in my area and plenty of cars.
WiredIncorrectly
18-04-20, 11:16
Judging by what we know so far I doubt there will be any movement on the lockdown until at least September. There is no evidence to show people who have had CV can not get it again. There's no definitive working tests. There's no vaccine.
Countries want to get back to normal ASAP because their economy's are dying. Spain for example, which relies heavily on tourism. China, which the world relies on for clothing and tech. But the numbers are showing it's not as simple as removing the lock down and hoping for the best. China blatantly lied about it's numbers. Italy and Spain could well be doing the same to save face. Makes sense.
Being agoraphobic the lockdown isn't too much of a problem. I've actually got an excuse to stay in now and nobody can moan at me to leave the house :roflmao:
I do the odd freelance job here and there, but there's nothing about. I have online friends who are developers and they've got no work either. Nobody can earn money during this time. Sucks so much.
I had to use a foodbank the other day. Felt like a right idiot.
Pamplemousse
18-04-20, 11:41
The other thing of concern - and which the government seems reluctant to address -is the fact that we are still allowing people back into the country (and out of the country) with no forced quarantine.
A few weeks ago a friend and his partner went on holiday to Mauritius. They had their temperatures checked on arrival there, and questions were asked.
When they returned to Thiefrow - nothing, nada, niente.
We are even importing European labour to help on the farms with apparently no regulation other than to ask them to fill out a health questionnaire when they get off the flight - and these unfortunate bods face the prospect of infection in the UK and then taking it back to their home countries.
Your Brexit dividend, right there. I could write a rant and get very political about this, but I won't.
WiseMonkey
18-04-20, 12:38
No guarantee that this vaccine will work though, WM.
I think we just have a partial lockdown in the UK. Still plenty of people out and about in my area and plenty of cars.
This is the big problem, because of mixed messages from the PM and his political advisers right from the start. Keeping yourself and family safe is all you can do, take care x
There is no evidence to show people who have had CV can not get it again.
At this point it hasn’t been proven beyond doubt, but that’s only because there hasn’t been a long enough time passed to judge that.
Infected people are producing specific antibodies as they do with other viruses, and at this point the only question is how long this immunity will last.
For SARS and MERS, two very similar coronaviruses, the immunity lasts between one and three years depending on severity of infection. It’s widely expected that this novel coronavirus will be much the same, as the genetic sequence is so similar to the other two known viruses.
The point the W.H.O are making is that the “at home” antibody test does not specify the level of antibody production in the blood so it is impossible to tell if the production is at a sufficient level to ward off further infection and, more importantly, to what degree you are infectious to others.
I personally think that they’re right in that regard, but to say there is “zero evidence” of immunity is not entirely correct. Scientists have been detecting antibodies in infected people for a long time, this alone is evidence of immunity.
WiseMonkey
18-04-20, 13:19
At this point it hasn’t been proven beyond doubt, but that’s only because there hasn’t been a long enough time passed to judge that.
Infected people are producing specific antibodies as they do with other viruses, and at this point the only question is how long this immunity will last.
For SARS and MERS, two very similar coronaviruses, the immunity lasts between one and three years depending on severity of infection. It’s widely expected that this novel coronavirus will be much the same, as the genetic sequence is so similar to the other two known viruses.
The point the W.H.O are making is that the “at home” antibody test does not specify the level of antibody production in the blood so it is impossible to tell if the production is at a sufficient level to ward off further infection and, more importantly, to what degree you are infectious to others.
I personally think that they’re right in that regard, but to say there is “zero evidence” of immunity is not entirely correct. Scientists have been detecting antibodies in infected people for a long time, this alone is evidence of immunity.
Yes, I agree that it's highly likely that covid19 will follow the same pattern as the other related viruses. Although it's early days, there seems to be no evidence that anyone has been infected twice by covid19. Some people have relapsed because they haven't fully recovered from the initial infection (which can happen with any virus) and some have caught other virus's (either colds or 'flu). There has been cases where a person in recovery has tested negative and then tested positive again but this was due to the shedding of dead viral material which is inactive and therefore not contagious. Similarly traces of covid19 have been found on the floors of ships which have been in dock for some time, but the material is dead and therefore inactive as well.
Somebody created a thread on the Digital Spy forum today (or maybe yesterday) about just quarantining London and letting the rest of the country ditch the lockdown. My immediate thought was 'What planet are they on?' I mean, why single out Greater London to only be locked down? Yes they may be the epicentre of mainland Britain, but other areas are also very hard hit, with the West Midlands conurbation being the second worst-hit (especially with our second city being slap-bang in the middle of it).
WiredIncorrectly
18-04-20, 17:52
The point the W.H.O are making is that the “at home” antibody test does not specify the level of antibody production in the blood so it is impossible to tell if the production is at a sufficient level to ward off further infection and, more importantly, to what degree you are infectious to others.
I personally think that they’re right in that regard, but to say there is “zero evidence” of immunity is not entirely correct. Scientists have been detecting antibodies in infected people for a long time, this alone is evidence of immunity.
I'm going from this article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52335210
To quote what was said at Geneva:
Speaking in Geneva, the World Health Organization's (WHO) Dr Maria van Kerkhove cast doubt on the benefit of rapid serology tests due to a lack of evidence around coronavirus immunity.She said: "There are a lot of countries that are suggesting using rapid diagnostic serological tests to be able to capture what they think will be a measure of immunity.
"Right now, we have no evidence that the use of a serological test can show that an individual has immunity or is protected from reinfection."
She added: "These antibody tests will be able to measure that level of seroprevalence - that level of antibodies but that does not mean that somebody with antibodies means that they are immune."
Dr van Kerkhove said it was "a good thing" that so many tests are being developed, but she added: "We need to ensure that they are validated so that we know what they say they attempt to measure they are actually measuring."
I'd trust that source over arm chair research :whistles:
The parts you highlighted actually back up exactly what I’ve written.
The appearance of specific antibodies in the blood are evidence of immunity, they just aren’t sure the levels required and how long this immunity lasts. The tests they are referring to prove neither and that’s the problem.
Pamplemousse
18-04-20, 19:48
Somebody created a thread on the Digital Spy forum today (or maybe yesterday) about just quarantining London and letting the rest of the country ditch the lockdown.
Apparently this idea was first mooted at the beginning of the pandemic in the UK.
This guy I've been a big fan of for a while now. Starting at about 8 mins 40 secs he analyses COVID data from California, once again suggesting this virus is way more prevalent in the population than confirmed cases tell us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w7F_hzqIhM
MyNameIsTerry
18-04-20, 21:24
Somebody created a thread on the Digital Spy forum today (or maybe yesterday) about just quarantining London and letting the rest of the country ditch the lockdown. My immediate thought was 'What planet are they on?' I mean, why single out Greater London to only be locked down? Yes they may be the epicentre of mainland Britain, but other areas are also very hard hit, with the West Midlands conurbation being the second worst-hit (especially with our second city being slap-bang in the middle of it).
DS has it's fair share of loons and nasties on it.
It wouldn't work now anyway. I think there is merit in a circle of tanks around an epicentre but like you say it's too widespread now and the Midlands would need a far bigger Iron Curtain.
Regardless it wouldn't mean a return to normality for those outside of the "plague zone" and besides how could we when we need to travel across those borders? It would make the NI border issue look like a nothing.
But I think some people just want normality back and it's tempting to throw others under the bus for it. Places like London are a nightmare to social distance in when they spend so much time pressed up against each other to travel.
The sunbathing seems to be reported as London parks and this will annoy people outside of London (and within) who might think sod them then. But how many Londoners are doing what they can and also get annoyed by the idiots?
Tomorrow’s papers saying in three weeks schools and some clothes shops open. The rest by end of May and we are looking at July for Pubs and restaurants..
[QUOTE=fishman65;1943273]This guy I've been a big fan of for a while now. Starting at about 8 mins 40 secs he analyses COVID data from California, once again suggesting this virus is way more prevalent in the population than confirmed cases tell us.
I do like this chap - Dr John Campbell talks a lot of sense, good open interpretation of the data - something we are not getting from the UK government - in fact I don't know why he isn't being called on to advise the government! Certainly makes the case for the growing public immunity argument. But unless the PHE gets serious on the case of community antibody testing we are never going to move forward on this and help ourselves get out of the lockdown.
DS has it's fair share of loons and nasties on it.
It wouldn't work now anyway. I think there is merit in a circle of tanks around an epicentre but like you say it's too widespread now and the Midlands would need a far bigger Iron Curtain.
Regardless it wouldn't mean a return to normality for those outside of the "plague zone" and besides how could we when we need to travel across those borders? It would make the NI border issue look like a nothing.
But I think some people just want normality back and it's tempting to throw others under the bus for it. Places like London are a nightmare to social distance in when they spend so much time pressed up against each other to travel.
The sunbathing seems to be reported as London parks and this will annoy people outside of London (and within) who might think sod them then. But how many Londoners are doing what they can and also get annoyed by the idiots?
I am one of those people living in London who is observing government guidelines ... and I can tell you like many others we are heartily sick of the idiots continually flouting the distancing rules. I see them every day on the common opposite my house - kids playing football, teenagers sitting about drinking, groups of all ages walking three and four abreast along the pavement so that you are obliged to step into the road to observe the 2-metre rule. I try not to venture out more than once a week - usually to the little mini market at the end of the road - but every time I go in there some cretin feels he has to stand right behind me at the till and I have to tell them to stand off. London is a nightmare to social distance due to overpopulation of idiots!!
ankietyjoe
19-04-20, 11:11
Tomorrow’s papers saying in three weeks schools open.
And this is why nobody should use the press as a source of information.
There are currently no plans to re-open schools for any reason other than for the children of key workers, and they're still open for that purpose anyway.
WiseMonkey
19-04-20, 11:41
There are currently no plans to re-open schools for any reason other than for the children of key workers, and they're still open for that purpose anyway.
Wow! I can't believe that schools in UK (under lockdown) are still even open for children of essential workers, schools are petries dishes for infections.
Our govt. is considering dropping to Level 3 shortly and are opening schools and daycare facilities for children (up to age 14) of essential workers and others resuming work again but it's not compulsory. Parents can keep their children at home and learn online instead ... BUT ... (oh dear, mixed messages)!!
The whole idea is a logistical nightmare and not well thought out either! Teachers are not happy and there is a petition going to the govt. to get them to abandon the idea and close all schools under Level 3.
ankietyjoe
19-04-20, 13:01
Wow! I can't believe that schools in UK (under lockdown) are still even open for children of essential workers, schools are petries dishes for infections.
Agreed, although in reality the numbers are low in terms of pupils and staff, it's more of a glorified creche than anything else.
Pamplemousse
19-04-20, 13:47
There is of course the 75th anniversary of VE Day on the 8th of May and the flag-waving jingos would love nothing more than to be outside and say "stuff you, Europe!" on that day. I suspect that's high on the agenda for the tabloids.
MyNameIsTerry
19-04-20, 14:29
Agreed, although in reality the numbers are low in terms of pupils and staff, it's more of a glorified creche than anything else.
Yep, it's just to stop medical staff having time off to look after their kids.
I hear they are protesting about the lockdown in America. How different we are in the UK..Unless things start to get lifted in 2 weeks I think people will stop listening
ankietyjoe
19-04-20, 17:38
I hear they are protesting about the lockdown in America. How different we are in the UK..Unless things start to get lifted in 2 weeks I think people will stop listening
I do hope they are beaten or arrested then.
Pamplemousse
19-04-20, 18:03
I do hope they are beaten or arrested then.
They're Trump's loyal fan base. America the Grate.
https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/1127148407638080/
ankietyjoe
19-04-20, 18:41
They're Trump's loyal fan base. America the Grate.
https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/1127148407638080/
America (smugly) in the past - "The world is watching!"
The World (now) - "We never used to be, but we are now"
travelgirl77
19-04-20, 19:09
I do hope they are beaten or arrested then.. Wow. I am truly happy that I live in America. I am proud that I do not live somewhere that would employ these reactions to protests. If it is a law we can get arrested or fined, but beaten? I will take this great, albeit flawed country, any day of the week over those archaic regimes. And, I truly wish the board would get back to discussing the disease rather than turning into an America or Trump bashing session. He was elected, he is the President, and there are a lot of people who support him and many who don’t. Most of you don’t even live here and not everyone on these boards hates him. So can we get back to the facts at hand?
ankietyjoe
19-04-20, 19:47
. Wow. I am truly happy that I live in America. I am proud that I do not live somewhere that would employ these reactions to protests. If it is a law we can get arrested or fined, but beaten? I will take this great, albeit flawed country, any day of the week over those archaic regimes. And, I truly wish the board would get back to discussing the disease rather than turning into an America or Trump bashing session. He was elected, he is the President, and there are a lot of people who support him and many who don’t. Most of you don’t even live here and not everyone on these boards hates him. So can we get back to the facts at hand?
I was referring to the idiots in the UK who potentially flout the lockdown rules, as per this -
How different we are in the UK..Unless things start to get lifted in 2 weeks I think people will stop listening
However, I have zero respect for Trump or Trump supporters, irrespective of the reason for supporting him. He is a man who openly broadcasts hate, racism, sexism and utter stupidity. He is dangerous, and the actions of many of his supporters are dangerous. No country is 'great', I believe national pride to be a waste of energy. He is the worst thing to happen to your country since slavery, a disgusting, bloated stain on humanity.
. Wow. I am truly happy that I live in America. I am proud that I do not live somewhere that would employ these reactions to protests. If it is a law we can get arrested or fined, but beaten? I will take this great, albeit flawed country, any day of the week over those archaic regimes. And, I truly wish the board would get back to discussing the disease rather than turning into an America or Trump bashing session. He was elected, he is the President, and there are a lot of people who support him and many who don’t. Most of you don’t even live here and not everyone on these boards hates him. So can we get back to the facts at hand?
I must admit, we need to give Trump some credit for atleast trying to fight back against the Oligarchs who are pushing this lockdown and the coronavirus hoax as a whole. I respect those Americans who have come out onto the streets, they might just stop the US from being destroyed.
I wouldn't take some of the comments on here seriously. The majority of British people are extremely brainwashed and only believe what the fake media tells them. Even though, the same media and politicians have consistently lied to them. For example, the BBC has been caught red handed staging a chemical attack in Syria which was to be blamed on Assad.
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/c0.3.1080.1080a/s480x480/57034867_677048242731573_3156874298108220153_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=109&_nc_ohc=6gJ3hgfnYAkAX9icqxr&oh=1ffbc3fd3e0e7d2a2d99a2e7cf0b00b0&oe=5F010132
travelgirl77
19-04-20, 20:51
I was referring to the idiots in the UK who potentially flout the lockdown rules, as per this -
However, I have zero respect for Trump or Trump supporters, irrespective of the reason for supporting him. He is a man who openly broadcasts hate, racism, sexism and utter stupidity. He is dangerous, and the actions of many of his supporters are dangerous. No country is 'great', I believe national pride to be a waste of energy. He is the worst thing to happen to your country since slavery, a disgusting, bloated stain on humanity.
Well Joe I am glad you live in the UK. And I do believe our country is great, not better than, but great, but alas we can agree to disagree. I am not a Trump supporter and didn’t vote for him, but I do support some of the things he has done. And I can think of far worse things that our country has been through, but again, back to the topic at hand.
back to the topic at hand.
The Times tomorrow suggesting we will go with herd immunity as we risk damaging mental health and jobs for the younger. Anybody got the link to the article but most papers going with the lockdown will come under pressure to end it soon by April 21st? Just interested to hear what people think if that’s the right way to go?
Sadly, the topic really is a political issue. We're all going through that right now. We the people are relying on the government personnel that were put into place to guide and support us. The very first post is what seems to be dividing us even more. What information and more importantly, who do you believe and trust? Decisions will be made regardless of our political leanings, feelings or the risks to our health, and that's the way is I'm afraid. A lot of damage has already been done and realistically, its going to be a while until we reach the "new normal".
We all have to find our way with coping with it and granted its different for everyone but we'll get through it. What choice do we really have? :shrug: When I was going through my illnesses, I took a one day at a time approach and it really helped me cope with the physical and mental challenges I endured. I'm approaching this crisis in the same way and its greatly helped the stress levels. I'm following the words in my signature and that's been the greatest help.
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
19-04-20, 21:45
I hear they are protesting about the lockdown in America. How different we are in the UK..Unless things start to get lifted in 2 weeks I think people will stop listening
People get annoyed when they think they can't do what they want, especially in these entitled times. But beyond the covidiots there is real concern by many about their businesses, jobs and homes. You can understand why they want answers and may be unhappy.
But the plonkers who just want it gone so they can get back to shoe shopping, drinking and going to festivals...their concerns aren't of any importance.
The media are banging on about dates and exit plans. It's a boon to all the paid "experts" who pop up with their speculation.
Just ignore it and await government announcements. Nothing else matters.
I've been impressed by how people in my area have mostly cooperated. I think this shows they do care and think of others. There will be a test as people return to work as getting closer to normal may mean people relax their attitudes too much.
PanickyGuy
19-04-20, 21:49
It seems like the choice has now become either the hammer or the nail. Bad economy versus the virus. Which one is going to hurt us most?
I'd vote virus any day over lost of money and material wealth.
Phoenixess
19-04-20, 22:10
It seems like the choice has now become either the hammer or the nail. Bad economy versus the virus. Which one is going to hurt us most?
I'd vote virus any day over lost of money and material wealth.
Couldn’t agree more
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WiseMonkey
20-04-20, 05:12
New Zealand moving out of lockdown in Monday 27th May: (from level 4 to level 3) ...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12326157
Pamplemousse
20-04-20, 09:01
Here's where we are in the UK.
"596 dead - see page 4"
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheSun/status/1251986188866596864
Pamplemousse
20-04-20, 09:06
It seems like the choice has now become either the hammer or the nail. Bad economy versus the virus. Which one is going to hurt us most?
I'd vote virus any day over lost of money and material wealth.
With you there. I'm self-employed and the manner in which I pay myself means I get no government support. My company could go bust and that'd be that. But economies recover: the dead do not.
WiseMonkey
20-04-20, 09:34
Here's where we are in the UK.
"596 dead - see page 4" https://mobile.twitter.com/TheSun/status/1251986188866596864 the daily deaths are dropping but it's so sad :weep:
Pamplemousse
20-04-20, 10:30
the daily deaths are dropping but it's so sad :weep:
Unfortunately this is where we are and don't forget the UK has fourteen times the population of NZ, twice your population in Greater London alone - it's inevitable. Some countries will have handled this well; others... not so. Also, that figure is a "Sunday figure" so expect it to jump up again today and tomorrow. To be honest, I watch the reported cases more closely but I simply do not trust the Government to not massage the numbers.
But economies recover: the dead do not.Pamplemousse, the best observations are often the simplest, like yours here.
And to any ill feeling or offence taken a few posts back, its only natural when emotions are near the surface, when uncertainty is the daily status quo. We are all riding the same wave regardless of our race, creed, colour or nationality.
WiseMonkey
20-04-20, 23:43
Some countries will have handled this well; others... not so.
Personally I believe this to be largely true, as well as population of countries eg the population of Ireland and New Zealand is approx. 5 million, Ireland (Eire) has 15,652 confirmed cases of Covid19 and 687 deaths where as New Zealand has 1,440 confirmed cases and 12 deaths.
I'm aware that the Eire shares a border with Northern Ireland (pop 1.8 million) and that they both have special trade agreements with UK and that Eire is still part of the EU.
Union seeks legal immunity for NHS medics in pandemic
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/19/coronavirus-nhs-risks-facing-billions-of-pounds-in-negligence-claims
It accepts that doctors should be accountable for their actions and it is therefore calling for a public debate over legal immunity and whether the NHS should be able to be sued for patient care related to the Covid-19 outbreak. It says any compensation paid out would be a drain on NHS resources and the taxpayer as well as being damaging to staff morale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHJnqjeFkfM
MyNameIsTerry
21-04-20, 21:22
^ what's offensive about that haka? :shrug:
MyNameIsTerry
21-04-20, 21:26
Ofcom ruling of David Icke's 5G conspiracy theory interview and the poor comments of Eamonn Holmes:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52358920
In addressing that Icke piece...
It said the interview, recorded on 18 March and broadcast on London Live on 8 April, "included potentially harmful content about the coronavirus pandemic".
While not mentioning 5G by name, Icke referred to an "electro-magnetic, technologically generated soup of radiation toxicity" that he claimed had damaged old people's immune systems.
He also claimed that official health advice aimed at reducing the spread of the virus were being implemented to further the ambitions of a clandestine "cult", rather than to protect public health.
Ofcom said it was "particularly concerned" by Icke "casting doubt on the motives behind official health advice to protect the public from the virus".
"These claims went largely unchallenged during the 80-minute interview and were made without the support of any scientific or other evidence."
WiseMonkey
21-04-20, 23:23
^ what's offensive about that haka? :shrug:
I thought it was rather funny but then no one can do the Haka like the NZ All Blacks rugby team or a group of Maori performers.
My concern is that they are not social distancing, unless all those nursing staff are in the same bubble (isolated group living together and not having any contact outside of the hospital) :huh:
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 04:17
I thought it was rather funny but then no one can do the Haka like the NZ All Blacks rugby team or a group of Maori performers.
My concern is that they are not social distancing, unless all those nursing staff are in the same bubble (isolated group living together and not having any contact outside of the hospital) :huh:
Since they are NHS staff it will have been carefully managed inline with infection control procedures.
Seemed funny to me too but I doubt that was the motive behind posting it..
Agreed on the best performers although I'm not sure I would want to take on that nurse threatening to stick something right up somewhere...:biggrin:
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 04:25
Personally I believe this to be largely true, as well as population of countries eg the population of Ireland and New Zealand is approx. 5 million, Ireland (Eire) has 15,652 confirmed cases of Covid19 and 687 deaths where as New Zealand has 1,440 confirmed cases and 12 deaths.
I'm aware that the Eire shares a border with Northern Ireland (pop 1.8 million) and that they both have special trade agreements with UK and that Eire is still part of the EU.
Nothing has changed even though we left the EU in January. Whilst in the transition phase we continue as normal. But even after the plan is to prevent compromising cross border travel or trade on the island.
The EU were criticised for their slow response, just as we were, and it came down to backpeddling once enough countries started closing their borders and restricting freedom of movement. The EU tend to be slow in reacting but normally they have more time to meet up. So they will have to look at improving that in case this happens again as they can't drag their feet with countries arguing over what to do as they could with something like the refugee crisis.
The trade discussions only recently started. They seem to be happening in some fashion but since the media now have a new focus they have forgotten all about it...
Panicattacka
22-04-20, 04:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHJnqjeFkfM
Meanwhile, 15 elderly patients are flatlining in the room next door...
We can still have a bit of fun and put a smile on faces amongst all the bloody doom and gloom
Good on them:yesyes:
Meanwhile, 15 elderly patients are flatlining in the room next door...
What's scarier is that the NHS is basically being given the license to murder people.
What's scarier is that the NHS is basically being given the license to murder people.
They’re trying to stop malpractice lawsuits being filed against junior doctors and staff who are being forced into working environments they aren’t fully trained to be in. Yeah, that’s a debatable practice, and it’s something that certainly shouldn’t just be agreed to.
But seriously, a “licence to murder people”? Is that what you think the NHS is, chock full of psychopathic murderers who are hellbent on ending life and getting away with it?
They’re trying to stop malpractice lawsuits being filed against junior doctors and staff who are being forced into working environments they aren’t fully trained to be in. Yeah, that’s a debatable practice, and it’s something that certainly shouldn’t just be agreed to.
The problem is NHS negligence re cancer, heart disease and other serious diseases not being diagnosed and treated during COVID-19 "crisis". Not to mention mentally ill patients who are at serious risk of suicide, self-harm, danger to others, addiction etc.
And to say negligence claims should be prevented because they would further damage the NHS is a form of emotional blackmail. Both the NHS and the govt are responsible.
The problem is NHS negligence re cancer, heart disease and other serious diseases not being diagnosed and treated during COVID-19 "crisis". Not to mention mentally ill patients who are at serious risk of suicide, self-harm, danger to others, addiction etc.
And to say negligence claims should be prevented because they would further damage the NHS is a form of emotional blackmail. Both the NHS and the govt are responsible.
Yeah, as I said, debate it by all means, and it’s certainly not something that should just be put into practice across the board. NHS staff who are put into areas they aren’t used to or untrained medics being asked to perform things that usually would require a further year or mores training should, in my opinion, have a form of protection. They’re working in unusual circumstances so why should the same expectation be placed on them? Just my opinion though, of course others will differ, which is why it should be up for debate.
It’s not a licence to murder though, that statement is just hysterical nonsense.
Yeah, as I said, debate it by all means, and it’s certainly not something that should just be put into practice across the board. NHS staff who are put into areas they aren’t used to or untrained medics being asked to perform things that usually would require a further year or mores training should, in my opinion, have a form of protection. They’re working in unusual circumstances so why should the same expectation be placed on them? Just my opinion though, of course others will differ, which is why it should be up for debate.
It’s not a licence to murder though, that statement is just hysterical nonsense.
I agree with most of that and it can also be argued that there were shortages of staff due to illness/self-isolating - particularly doctors/consultants - and that was also a factor. But with the former Excel Centre in London, now Nightingale Hosp, with only 19 patients out of a potential for nearly 3,000 patients/beds, you do wonder why hosps operating at generally 80% capacity were made to bear the brunt and told to cancel/delay many not just non-urgent but arguably life-changing operations/treatments like heart surgery/chemo/dialysis etc.
A very sad situation for all involved.
I agree with most of that and it can also be argued that there were shortages of staff due to illness/self-isolating - particularly doctors/consultants - and that was also a factor. But with the former Excel Centre in London, now Nightingale Hosp, with only 19 patients out of a potential for nearly 3,000 patients/beds, you do wonder why hosps operating at generally 80% capacity were made to bear the brunt and told to cancel/delay many not just non-urgent but arguably life-changing operations/treatments like heart surgery/chemo/dialysis etc.
A very sad situation for all involved.
It was panic, nothing more. We just weren’t ready for a pandemic, as you say, hospitals are at breaking point at the best of times.
You also need to remember that hospitals, along with care homes, are now probably the biggest breeding ground for COVID-19 so it’s a big judgement call to allow people suffering from cancer or heart disease to go to them. You have to weigh up the risk of treatment versus possible infection, which is no easy task.
I don’t think there’s really a right or wrong answer here, if we’ve learnt anything over the past few months it’s that nobody really knows what’s going to happen with this virus. Thousands of new cases are reported every day and with that will come a new percentage of people needing hospital admittance. By all accounts those new cases aren’t going away any time soon, so while those hospitals seem to be coping right now, that could literally change in a few days.
I just can’t abide statements like the above. It’s putting a horrible taint against a healthcare system that has real people risking real illness in order to care for others. NHS staff are being lauded as heroes and rightly so, they have been put in a fight that they did not start, so to accuse them of wanting a licence to murder is simply disgusting.
chock full of psychopathic murderers who are hellbent on ending life and getting away with it?
Have you seen the look on their faces when doing the Haka? :roflmao:
Have you seen the look on their faces when doing the Haka? :roflmao:
You should see the look on my face when you post your latest moronic theory.
What's scarier is that the NHS is basically being given the license to murder people.
So you won't be needing your ICU bed should you be unfortunate enough to get seriously ill with Covid?
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 14:55
Have you seen the look on their faces when doing the Haka? :roflmao:
Aren't NHS staff allowed to smile, laugh of have fun? If they don't walk around, including outside hospital in fear of accusations by moronic people, with a permanetly solumn face on they are all murderers just waiting for their chance?
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 14:59
I just can’t abide statements like the above. It’s putting a horrible taint against a healthcare system that has real people risking real illness in order to care for others. NHS staff are being lauded as heroes and rightly so, they have been put in a fight that they did not start, so to accuse them of wanting a licence to murder is simply disgusting.
Agreed. Some of them have even died from this.
Of course to those who think it's all a big hoax...:doh: But then Hollow also believes we live in some police state, one which funnily enough can't even stop people sunbathing during a lockdown.
In our 'police state' I've not seen one police officer in 4 weeks :roflmao:Not one......
I am also disgusted by the 'licence to murder statement', actually disgusted doesn't even really cover my feelings about that statement.
I always think it’s funny how they tell us we’re living in a police state while freely posting about it on a public forum...
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 16:42
I always think it’s funny how they tell us we’re living in a police state while freely posting about it on a public forum...
Yes, a massive irony! So far no one has kicked down their door and dragged them off to a cell never to be seen again. A good test for your average police state might be telling an officer he/she is a [insert expletive here] where responses range from a telling off to a fine or small charge as opposed to having a damn good beating in some cell never to be heard off again...:whistles:
Given our country has imposed a lockdown I expect all such conspiracy theorists are holding a backslapping party somewhere as they have been proven right in their minds? :winks:
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 16:47
In our 'police state' I've not seen one police officer in 4 weeks :roflmao:Not one......
I am also disgusted by the 'licence to murder statement', actually disgusted doesn't even really cover my feelings about that statement.
I got picked up by the community rozzers. They wanted to know what I was doing behind a flyover bridge with some bags in an area of fly tipping. Upon explaining I was cutting & collecting wood for an old man with a coal fire who was worried as his coal yard was shutting they were happy and said they thought it was a good idea on such a lonely stretch of a main road. Luckily I wasn't dragged off to some cell to be beaten and never heard of again (or then sent to a hospital where I would be legally murdered to cover up for the state's over zealousness with my beating). :biggrin:
Pamplemousse
22-04-20, 19:58
I got picked up by the community rozzers. They wanted to know what I was doing behind a flyover bridge with some bags in an area of fly tipping. Upon explaining I was cutting & collecting wood for an old man with a coal fire who was worried as his coal yard was shutting they were happy and said they thought it was a good idea on such a lonely stretch of a main road. Luckily I wasn't dragged off to some cell to be beaten and never heard of again (or then sent to a hospital where I would be legally murdered to cover up for the state's over zealousness with my beating). :biggrin:
Or the one popular in the Stalin era: "exiled without contact".
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 21:25
We can still have a bit of fun and put a smile on faces amongst all the bloody doom and gloom
Good on them:yesyes:
Yeah who would have thought it, apparently medical staff get to have a break...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8243503/amp/British-nurses-Tavistock-Hospital-slammed-sharing-video-performing-Haka-coronavirus.html
The usual 'cultural appropriation' nonsense and plonkers moaning about them having time other than looking after patients. Shh...don't tell them...nurses even get to go home after two double shifts...:winks:
Some people just like to moan about everything.
MyNameIsTerry
22-04-20, 21:26
Or the one popular in the Stalin era: "exiled without contact".
I think I already live in one of those places so they might struggle :biggrin:
The hospital I work in is so quiet
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3886452-The-hospital-I-work-in-is-so-quiet
Half empty. Some wards have less than a handful of patients, some wards are closed. Most staff have been moved to wards so are falling over selves. While their regular work goes undone.
A&E very quiet.
---------------------
Same. Our patients are being denied their regular treatments and interventions so we can all twiddle our thumbs and waitconfused
---------------------
Dh (hospital consultant) is saying the same about where he works - it’s driving him mad! Empty wards, lots of staff, and so many important procedures /operations / treatments cancelled. God knows how they are ever going to catch up!
---------------------
I was thinking this, work really quiet. Everyone busying themselves doing nonsense jobs whilst the world claps for us and we ate millions of donated food. Disclaimer: my ward is like this not all nurses
--------------------
My best friend, who is a consultant in a large hospital in the south (not London) related the exact same thing to me yesterday. She said they're finishing their ward rounds by 11am, and are twiddling their thumbs much of the time, feeling very guilty about being clapped for, every Thursday.
WiseMonkey
22-04-20, 22:51
In our 'police state' I've not seen one police officer in 4 weeks :roflmao:Not one......
I am also disgusted by the 'licence to murder statement', actually disgusted doesn't even really cover my feelings about that statement.
During our lockdown, it's been far more strict and there has been more of a police present, the helicopters have been doing the rounds too. I think of it as the government looking after us during this time as well as having to deal with those 'idgits' that flaunt the rules.
In regards to the 'licence to murder' comment I agree and it also shows how out of touch some people are with reality.
The hospital I work in is so quiet
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3886452-The-hospital-I-work-in-is-so-quiet
Half empty. Some wards have less than a handful of patients, some wards are closed. Most staff have been moved to wards so are falling over selves. While their regular work goes undone.
A&E very quiet.
---------------------
Same. Our patients are being denied their regular treatments and interventions so we can all twiddle our thumbs and waitconfused
---------------------
Dh (hospital consultant) is saying the same about where he works - it’s driving him mad! Empty wards, lots of staff, and so many important procedures /operations / treatments cancelled. God knows how they are ever going to catch up!
---------------------
I was thinking this, work really quiet. Everyone busying themselves doing nonsense jobs whilst the world claps for us and we ate millions of donated food. Disclaimer: my ward is like this not all nurses
--------------------
My best friend, who is a consultant in a large hospital in the south (not London) related the exact same thing to me yesterday. She said they're finishing their ward rounds by 11am, and are twiddling their thumbs much of the time, feeling very guilty about being clapped for, every Thursday.
Hospitals cleared their wards of a lot of patients to ensure that they could deal with an influx of COVID-19 patients. It hasn’t come to that yet, let’s hope it stays that way.
I’d much rather they overreacted and had staff sitting with not much to do than not take it seriously enough and end up completely overwhelmed.
I do hope that one day you’ll stop all of this nonsense and realise that disagreeing with the blindingly obvious doesn’t make you “woke”, it just makes people laugh at you.
MyNameIsTerry
23-04-20, 04:52
Hospitals cleared their wards of a lot of patients to ensure that they could deal with an influx of COVID-19 patients. It hasn’t come to that yet, let’s hope it stays that way.
I’d much rather they overreacted and had staff sitting with not much to do than not take it seriously enough and end up completely overwhelmed.
I do hope that one day you’ll stop all of this nonsense and realise that disagreeing with the blindingly obvious doesn’t make you “woke”, it just makes people laugh at you.
Exactly. And if they kept all the routine work that would mean how many millions entered hospitals making contact they may do without?
But if Hollow had bothered to actually scroll further than the first few comments on that thread he would have seen others saying their hospitals were rammed and overwhelmed. But that wouldn't be the evidence he thinks he needs to downplay it all and be 'anti' just for the sake of it...
My hospital covers the whole city, around 280k people, but we only had 290 cases last I looked that had been diagnosed since this all started. That doesn't even mean 290 people over a month needing a bed or in ICU. Compare that to an area further into the West Midlands and the picture will drastically change.
I remember looking at the leader board for diagnosed cases a couple of weeks ago and there were whole counties with less cases than my city, and they would have many hospitals, and we have been very lucky around here.
And this is all before we even consider the merit of quoting Mumsnet as a reference...:winks:
:D Yes I was going to point out the Mumsnet reference point too...Hollow must be getting desperate in his search for "information"..
I thought calling North Korean defectors “traitors” was bad, but it’s a new low to accuse the NHS of wanting to murder people, all the while mocking folk who would be the first to step in and save your life if you ever needed it.
There are better ways to feel special than being an as*hole, hollow.
Pamplemousse
23-04-20, 14:18
I thought calling North Korean defectors “traitors” was bad, but it’s a new low to accuse the NHS of wanting to murder people, all the while mocking folk who would be the first to step in and save your life if you ever needed it.
There are better ways to feel special than being an as*hole, hollow.
The one thing that makes me laugh at individuals like Hollow (his user name must be a description of his skull) is how they cry things like "police state" without having ever experienced life in one. I find nonsense like that offensive for a very personal reason. The ideas of NHS murders reminds me of the dribblings of certain Americans who go on about "socialized medicine death panels" when referring to the NHS.
MyNameIsTerry
23-04-20, 15:54
The one thing that makes me laugh at individuals like Hollow (his user name must be a description of his skull) is how they cry things like "police state" without having ever experienced life in one. I find nonsense like that offensive for a very personal reason. The ideas of NHS murders reminds me of the dribblings of certain Americans who go on about "socialized medicine death panels" when referring to the NHS.
Yes, that often alt-right view of why the NHS is bad simply because it is a social policy. Something which again has dried up in the media as the alt-right surge has calmed down (or the media in the UK have moved into something else so stop going on about it).
I won't deny there are problems in the NHS and always have been. I don't agree with the suggestion of blanket legal cover because I suspect when you hand that power to sneaky lawyers it will be abused to cover up cases it shouldn't. I always think it may be used to absolve doctors & nurses and the their supervisors in the process when the supervisors may be the ones who need to be held to account for putting them in that position (rather than use them as scapegoats to let management get away with things).
The NHS does have a cover up culture and we have seen examples of very poor healthcare and some decisions that have needed criminal investigation. Some management decisions have led to deaths and they seemed to consider elderly as numbers rather than human beings. However, these are isolated cases that need to be investigated & tried, they do not reflect the attitudes of every one and many working in these settings may dislike it (some become whistle-blowers).
MyNameIsTerry
23-04-20, 16:22
I thought calling North Korean defectors “traitors” was bad, but it’s a new low to accuse the NHS of wanting to murder people, all the while mocking folk who would be the first to step in and save your life if you ever needed it.
There are better ways to feel special than being an as*hole, hollow.
Yep. Then there was the article posted titled in bold something like actors support paedophilia with a short excerpt cut from the top of the article. Clicking through revealed the headline was totally different and Hollow had posted this to make it appear it was from the news source. Admin had to delete that line for very obvious reasons.
He also once posted a very graphic picture of man cradling a dead child in a warzone with parts of her hanging off severed. I remember having to state that to Admin before they simply clicked on it given the impact that can have on people on an anxiety site!
But it's probably just the stuff circulating other forums at the corners of the internet and getting broadcast elsewhere to spread their beliefs. Do they even believe? Or it simply to be cool and edgy? :shrug:
As I’ve said before, I spent a few years dealing with this sort and they just do not care about the trauma they can cause. There’s freedom of speech, which I absolutely agree with, then there’s just being a complete sicko.
Even after those years of dealing with this, I still haven’t the faintest clue what these people get from it. They don’t believe any of it, because as we’ve seen on many occasions with this person, when challenged to back up their claims they either fall embarrassingly short or they just put their fingers in their ears.
One does need to wonder why you’d hang around a forum full of people who suffer with mental health disorders continually posting inflammatory and traumatising content. In my opinion Hollow is nothing more than a troll. I know that’s not a good word to use around these parts but it’s not like I’m just pulling that accusation out of nowhere.
PanickyGuy
23-04-20, 18:21
He also once posted a very graphic picture of man cradling a dead child in a warzone with parts of her hanging off severed. I remember having to state that to Admin before they simply clicked on it given the impact that can have on people on an anxiety site!
OMG! :ohmy::lac:
One does need to wonder why you’d hang around a forum full of people who suffer with mental health disorders continually posting inflammatory and traumatising content. In my opinion Hollow is nothing more than a troll. I know that’s not a good word to use around these parts but it’s not like I’m just pulling that accusation out of nowhere.
Yeah any time you see someone post about a deadly virus being a hoax, they have got to be trolling with propaganda like that. And I suspect there is more the one troll on this website.
Seen this on a forum
“Its a good question and not an easy one to answer.
When you think about it we do this sort of thing all the time without even thinking about it.
All sorts of things carry risk and cost lives. Driving for 'unnecessary' reasons such as holidays and visiting family carries the risk of dying in a car accident. Drinking alcohol. Activities people do for fun like skiing, horseback riding, mountain climbing.
If we banned all of these (in normal times) it would certainly lead to less deaths per annum. But people would generally be less happy because they wouldn't be able to do many of things that are enjoyable and make life worth living. So we allow them aware that some deaths will result because of it.
So how many deaths is acceptable, for anything? How do you balance risk of death with enjoyment of life?”
MyNameIsTerry
23-04-20, 21:19
The most foolproof way to reduce deaths is to...ban births :yesyes:
nomorepanic
23-04-20, 23:17
Can we please stop calling members trolls on here when we do not have any solid evidence that they are. Thanks.
MyNameIsTerry
24-04-20, 16:36
I am one of those people living in London who is observing government guidelines ... and I can tell you like many others we are heartily sick of the idiots continually flouting the distancing rules. I see them every day on the common opposite my house - kids playing football, teenagers sitting about drinking, groups of all ages walking three and four abreast along the pavement so that you are obliged to step into the road to observe the 2-metre rule. I try not to venture out more than once a week - usually to the little mini market at the end of the road - but every time I go in there some cretin feels he has to stand right behind me at the till and I have to tell them to stand off. London is a nightmare to social distance due to overpopulation of idiots!!
Dorabella, it's bad enough with the idiots but what message does mass idiotic behaviour like this send out?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/more-stupidity-social-media-users-blast-idiots-for-smashing-social-distancing-rules-by-cramming-onto-londons-westminster-bridge-to-clap-for-nhs-workers/ar-BB138aSy?ocid=spartanntp
Where is the London Mayor in this? Too busy looking for a poster to get offended by? Why are the Met just standing around, probably chatting with the crowd as they love to look polite & friendly, rather than breaking up these crowds? Other police forces are complaining about public problems and here we have the likes of the Met actively arranging for one! :doh::wall:
Around my area I've been impressed by just how many people are following it because I was expecting it to be the opposite. But we still have idiots like those who just do what they want in supermarkets (I saw one getting a right roasting off a manager the other day in Tesco and told she would throw him out if he did it again). I live near an Asian community so it's common to see the young lads in cars together or parked up chatting. At the other end away from this community you see similar with white lads in cars who are used to pulling up to chat or race around. But otherwise it's a ghost town here and most are doing what they should.
Dorabella, it's bad enough with the idiots but what message does mass idiotic behaviour like this send out?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/more-stupidity-social-media-users-blast-idiots-for-smashing-social-distancing-rules-by-cramming-onto-londons-westminster-bridge-to-clap-for-nhs-workers/ar-BB138aSy?ocid=spartanntp
Where is the London Mayor in this? Too busy looking for a poster to get offended by? Why are the Met just standing around, probably chatting with the crowd as they love to look polite & friendly, rather than breaking up these crowds? Other police forces are complaining about public problems and here we have the likes of the Met actively arranging for one! :doh::wall:
Around my area I've been impressed by just how many people are following it because I was expecting it to be the opposite. But we still have idiots like those who just do what they want in supermarkets (I saw one getting a right roasting off a manager the other day in Tesco and told she would throw him out if he did it again). I live near an Asian community so it's common to see the young lads in cars together or parked up chatting. At the other end away from this community you see similar with white lads in cars who are used to pulling up to chat or race around. But otherwise it's a ghost town here and most are doing what they should.
Indeed Terry - I'm glad Il'm miles away from Westminster!
Very mixed community where I live but still a mixture of idiots and a##holes who just don't give a damn about anyone and everyone else in their vicinity. I took car for a 20-minute spin (just to stop the battery from gong flat) up over Alexandra Palace hill yesterday evening and couldn't believe what I saw .... cars parked all the way down the hill, teenagers, joggers, families with kids and general motley collection of goodness-knows-whom all milling about like it was a bank holiday weekend. Not a rozzer in sight, cyclists riding two and three-abreast..
Glad I didn't have to stop ... came back with a doze of hayfever itcing eyes, sneezing ... won't bother again. Pollution may have gone down but high pollen count has taken its place ... the air felt 'thick' with it.
Where is the London Mayor in this? Too busy looking for a poster to get offended by? Why are the Met just standing around, probably chatting with the crowd as they love to look polite & friendly, rather than breaking up these crowds? Other police forces are complaining about public problems and here we have the likes of the Met actively arranging for one! :doh::wall:
Glad to say Khan has gone to ground ... probably because no-one is paying him any attention. Was making a bit of a fuss about face-masks last week after 3-week silence, but that fizzled out within a day. He has nothing to say, and probably is lacking enough postes to be offended by at present.
There is one bloke along the road from us who has done as he pleases right from day 1 of this lockdown. Off he goes in his car, back again and so on. He's been reported twice to the police but once they've been to see him, he just waits for them to drive off before resuming his total ignorance.
whispershadow
24-04-20, 22:55
There's people where I live who are still doing whatever the hell they feel like doing.
Pamplemousse
25-04-20, 12:31
Yes, there's one in my street too for whom this has made zero difference to his lifestyle.
Pamplemousse
25-04-20, 12:57
Where is the London Mayor in this? Too busy looking for a poster to get offended by? Why are the Met just standing around, probably chatting with the crowd as they love to look polite & friendly, rather than breaking up these crowds? Other police forces are complaining about public problems and here we have the likes of the Met actively arranging for one! :doh::wall:
Glad to say Khan has gone to ground ... probably because no-one is paying him any attention. Was making a bit of a fuss about face-masks last week after 3-week silence, but that fizzled out within a day. He has nothing to say, and probably is lacking enough postes to be offended by at present.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Khan has condemned these meetings.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1270350/sadiq-khan-london-news-coronavirus-clap-for-carers-Westminster-bridge-met-police
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8232195/Sadiq-Kahn-joins-critics-slamming-Met-Police-chief-social-distancing-rules-broken-NHS-clap.html
If ire should be directed at anyone, it's Cressida Dick.
I don't know how long lockdown will last, and I am not sure the media does either.
one minit it's oh sure, we've got a plan, we're going to gradually re-open the UK by late summer, then you have boris johnson is thinkking of keeping it in place for the rest of 2020 (that wouldb e one sucky year if that happened)
hopefully they will find ways to ease it so that people like us with extreme anxiety have a little less to worry about
I now have an account on ITV hub, I player and all 3
getting desperate for my soap opera fix..
I now have an account on ITV hub, I player and all 3
getting desperate for my soap opera fix..
um
that is all4
MyNameIsTerry
25-04-20, 16:19
Sorry to burst your bubble but Khan has condemned these meetings.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1270350/sadiq-khan-london-news-coronavirus-clap-for-carers-Westminster-bridge-met-police
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8232195/Sadiq-Kahn-joins-critics-slamming-Met-Police-chief-social-distancing-rules-broken-NHS-clap.html
If ire should be directed at anyone, it's Cressida Dick.
It should be aimed at both of them. Khan's response was very weak, simply saying other agencies will be asking themselves questions in an interview on LBC. He should be kicking them up the backside over it rather than passing it all over to them keeping his distance. And it should also be asked of the NHS who have been involved in this.
Pamplemousse
25-04-20, 16:36
It should be aimed at both of them. Khan's response was very weak, simply saying other agencies will be asking themselves questions in an interview on LBC. He should be kicking them up the backside over it rather than passing it all over to them keeping his distance. And it should also be asked of the NHS who have been involved in this.
Khan is also the PCC for London and I suspect he may well have had words with Dick. The real blame should of course lie with the officers who are standing on the bridge there.
MyNameIsTerry
25-04-20, 16:47
Khan is also the PCC for London and I suspect he may well have had words with Dick. The real blame should of course lie with the officers who are standing on the bridge there.
They did it again a couple of nights ago. Khan didn't stop that one.
Considering the big boss is standing on the bridge across from a hospital running the show I think the PC's shouldn't be made the scapegoats for her decisions.
They would just get hung out to dry by the boss when the public complaints rolled in about breaking it up.
MyNameIsTerry
26-04-20, 04:58
Protests in Germany:
http://https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-protests/i-want-my-life-back-germans-protest-against-lockdown-idUKKCN2270RD (https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-protests/i-want-my-life-back-germans-protest-against-lockdown-idUKKCN2270RD)
I was surprised by the court ruling. I wonder if London will see stuff like this?
Pamplemousse
26-04-20, 10:51
Protests in Germany:
http://https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-protests/i-want-my-life-back-germans-protest-against-lockdown-idUKKCN2270RD
I was surprised by the court ruling. I wonder if London will see stuff like this?
That link's broken, Terry.
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/proteste-gegen-corona-massnahmen-in-berlin-und-stuttgart-mehr-als-100-festnahmen-bei-demo-am-rosa-luxemburg-platz/25774122.html
Hundreds of people protested on Saturday against the restrictions. Among them were well-known right-wing populists and conspiracy theorists.
Despite a widespread ban on demonstrations, more than 1000 people gathered in Berlin on Saturday to protest against the Corona restrictions.
Many of the demonstrators were standing in front of barriers set up by the police around Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz in Berlin-Mitte to prevent the square from becoming too crowded. The police repeatedly called on people to leave the place. Individual participants were temporarily detained by the police.
Finally, the peaceful crowd gradually dispersed in the afternoon. According to the police there were more than 100 arrests. The police was on duty with almost 200 officers wearing protective masks. A police spokesman said that a large, closed crowd had been prevented from forming.
Pamplemousse
26-04-20, 11:01
What is bothering me more is reading reports that say:
antibodies last very little time in the body and thus leave it open to reinfection;
the coronavirus can be carried on atmospheric pollution particles;
a satisfactory vaccine may never be developed.
We may just have to face facts that this one can't be fixed and like the 1665 Plague, only those with natural immunity will survive.
What is bothering me more is reading reports that say:
antibodies last very little time in the body and thus leave it open to reinfection;
the coronavirus can be carried on atmospheric pollution particles;
a satisfactory vaccine may never be developed.
We may just have to face facts that this one can't be fixed and like the 1665 Plague, only those with natural immunity will survive.
There will be treatments that become available over time. A vaccine is by no means certain but with today’s technology it would be a real failure to not get one eventually.
Even short term immunity via infection, which is still more likely to be immunity for around 1 to 3 years, will see the virus eventually fade.
This virus looks powerful right now but it’s simply because it’s new. The more we study it the more we will expose it’s weaknesses.
Pamplemousse
26-04-20, 12:49
There will be treatments that become available over time. A vaccine is by no means certain but with today’s technology it would be a real failure to not get one eventually.
Even short term immunity via infection, which is still more likely to be immunity for around 1 to 3 years, will see the virus eventually fade.
This virus looks powerful right now but it’s simply because it’s new. The more we study it the more we will expose it’s weaknesses.
I wish I could share your optimism. The more this drags on, the more hopeless the situation seems to be becoming. Yes, I know vaccines take time to develop and test, but very few coronavirus vaccines exist.
I wish I could share your optimism. The more this drags on, the more hopeless the situation seems to be becoming. Yes, I know vaccines take time to develop and test, but very few coronavirus vaccines exist.
No coronavirus has ever had this level of transmission before. SARS and MERS both had vaccines in trial but they were largely shelved after both viruses were so well contained.
The fact that there are a number of vaccine candidates already in human trial despite this virus only being a few months old shows the level of commitment being applied.
Treatments will also be developed and there will actually be a number of effective treatments already out there that, unfortunately, need to go through stringent measures before they can be approved. This takes time.
As for natural immunity, again, nobody can say how long this immunity lasts as not enough time has passed of the virus existing to get widespread data on this. SARS and MERS are very similar to COVID-19 and they produce antibodies that last between 1 and 3 years. Logic would dictate that this virus will be roughly the same due to similarities in the gene sequence.
It does look hopeless right now, but that’s simply down to a lack of data. We can’t say anything with certainty right now because this thing didn’t exist just over half a year ago. That will change.
Pamplemousse
26-04-20, 14:02
No coronavirus has ever had this level of transmission before. SARS and MERS both had vaccines in trial but they were largely shelved after both viruses were so well contained.
The fact that there are a number of vaccine candidates already in human trial despite this virus only being a few months old shows the level of commitment being applied.
Treatments will also be developed and there will actually be a number of effective treatments already out there that, unfortunately, need to go through stringent measures before they can be approved. This takes time.
As for natural immunity, again, nobody can say how long this immunity lasts as not enough time has passed of the virus existing to get widespread data on this. SARS and MERS are very similar to COVID-19 and they produce antibodies that last between 1 and 3 years. Logic would dictate that this virus will be roughly the same due to similarities in the gene sequence.
It does look hopeless right now, but that’s simply down to a lack of data. We can’t say anything with certainty right now because this thing didn’t exist just over half a year ago. That will change.
Cheers, I feel slightly better now: although there's already 'fake news' circulating about one of the first vaccine trials in Oxford. Debunked here; https://twitter.com/BBCFergusWalsh/status/1254356432780214272
Of course, there's the "we want proof/she's got the placebo anyway" brigade out in full force, as you might expect.
At least B&Q have re-opened quite a few of their stores over the past week, whilst applying the same kind of in-store distancing measures as normal supermarkets. So at least the UK govt are now looking more unlikely to up the ante with the current lockdown measures, though I could still be wrong, of course.
Also it's still very much a 'wait and see' scenario as to how things pan out in mainland Europe before biting the bullet and easing restrictions.
There will be treatments that become available over time. A vaccine is by no means certain but with today’s technology it would be a real failure to not get one eventually.
Even short term immunity via infection, which is still more likely to be immunity for around 1 to 3 years, will see the virus eventually fade.
This virus looks powerful right now but it’s simply because it’s new. The more we study it the more we will expose it’s weaknesses.
There are probably still a lot of 'amateurs' (or 'wannabe' experts) out there trying to push their own agendas and assuming that they know better than the 'real' experts and professionals who are painstakingly getting to grips with all of this CV pandemic. Not to mention the serial fake news-mongers.
MyNameIsTerry
26-04-20, 20:40
At least B&Q have re-opened quite a few of their stores over the past week, whilst applying the same kind of in-store distancing measures as normal supermarkets. So at least the UK govt are now looking more unlikely to up the ante with the current lockdown measures, though I could still be wrong, of course.
Also it's still very much a 'wait and see' scenario as to how things pan out in mainland Europe before biting the bullet and easing restrictions.
They seemed to remain open during the lockdown but only for click & collect. Hardware stores were exempt so it was their own decision just as McDonald's closed various services. Therefore you could argue the UK government haven't been involved but I do agree they are more likely to start the first stage of relaxing as opposed to extending or hardening the current measures.
I am holiday from work this week as I had a holiday booked and cancelled. I admit I am finding it hard as being at work gave me some normality however being off work it’s difficult. I had the week off sick a few weeks back so feel I don’t need this holiday
I am feeling a bit anxious as going out means travelling to the same places at the moment and I tend to travel each week under normal times?
Pamplemousse
27-04-20, 08:46
Agreed - much too early, although Aus/NZ are somewhat ahead of the game. It pains me to say it, but I'd think at least another month for the UK and preferably two.
WiseMonkey
27-04-20, 09:07
Agreed - much too early, although Aus/NZ are somewhat ahead of the game. It pains me to say it, but I'd think at least another month for the UK and preferably two.
Yes it will be many more months for the UK, you will just have to go through it, the more people who abide by the isolation rules then the quicker you will come out of it.
Yep, our NZ PM laid down some very strict rules five weeks ago then put the whole country into an enforced lockdown (except essential workers). Complete lockdown is Level 4. The majority of folks followed the rules, of course there are the wallies who flout the rules so there's been lots of arrests and charges laid (good)!
We are dropping to Level 3 tomorrow which still means social distancing, staying at home and staying within your city. We will be able to go to the beach and have a swim. More businesses will be opening with an emphasis on online purchasing. I' think we'll be in Level 3 about another month...https://scontent.fakl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p960x960/94635541_10157367267401452_7353862198420045824_o.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=da1649&_nc_oc=AQnCfRyue5UOWL-6hg0K_68AbhF8YA5aW7ZHWb8KzDADuBztcfweckJtNcPB4zVOI sA&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl1-2.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=4f02aee8379d46836c7df8c889c77809&oe=5ECCAE78
I think Aussies are doing similar things to us, but they have a bit more freedom :shades:
Pamplemousse
27-04-20, 10:45
This should drive a point home: trending on UK Twitter at the moment.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23RIPMark&src=trend_click
But see also:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23LockdownEnd&src=trend_click
Interesting it's only obnoxious individuals like Katie Hopkins supporting an end.
Yes it will be many more months for the UK, you will just have to go through it, the more people who abide by the isolation rules then the quicker you will come out of it.
Yep, our NZ PM laid down some very strict rules five weeks ago then put the whole country into an enforced lockdown (except essential workers). Complete lockdown is Level 4. The majority of folks followed the rules, of course there are the wallies who flout the rules so there's been lots of arrests and charges laid (good)!
We are dropping to Level 3 tomorrow which still means social distancing, staying at home and staying within your city. We will be able to go to the beach and have a swim. More businesses will be opening with an emphasis on online purchasing. I' think we'll be in Level 3 about another month...https://scontent.fakl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p960x960/94635541_10157367267401452_7353862198420045824_o.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=da1649&_nc_oc=AQnCfRyue5UOWL-6hg0K_68AbhF8YA5aW7ZHWb8KzDADuBztcfweckJtNcPB4zVOI sA&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl1-2.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=4f02aee8379d46836c7df8c889c77809&oe=5ECCAE78
I think Aussies are doing similar things to us, but they have a bit more freedom :shades:
Yes WM it is the same in my State we can now go for a walk in National Parks and drive 50ks but only 2 people allowed in the car.
Our Premier is very strict on the rules she has upped the fines.
This should drive a point home: trending on UK Twitter at the moment.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23RIPMark&src=trend_click
But see also:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23LockdownEnd&src=trend_click
Interesting it's only obnoxious individuals like Katie Hopkins supporting an end.
Unfortunately Pample there are f...wits who will continue too keep being F..wits.
We had 12 professional rugby league players caught camping on a property riding quads an unlicensed firearm and the usual drunkard behaviour,I’m no prude but these footballers are total effing idiots.
Pamplemousse
27-04-20, 11:35
Yes it will be many more months for the UK, you will just have to go through it, the more people who abide by the isolation rules then the quicker you will come out of it.
Yep, our NZ PM laid down some very strict rules five weeks ago then put the whole country into an enforced lockdown (except essential workers). Complete lockdown is Level 4. The majority of folks followed the rules, of course there are the wallies who flout the rules so there's been lots of arrests and charges laid (good)!
We are dropping to Level 3 tomorrow which still means social distancing, staying at home and staying within your city. We will be able to go to the beach and have a swim. More businesses will be opening with an emphasis on online purchasing. I' think we'll be in Level 3 about another month...https://scontent.fakl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p960x960/94635541_10157367267401452_7353862198420045824_o.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=da1649&_nc_oc=AQnCfRyue5UOWL-6hg0K_68AbhF8YA5aW7ZHWb8KzDADuBztcfweckJtNcPB4zVOI sA&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl1-2.fna&_nc_tp=6&oh=4f02aee8379d46836c7df8c889c77809&oe=5ECCAE78
I think Aussies are doing similar things to us, but they have a bit more freedom :shades:
So that's the level the UK is nominally at, but others want less despite us still having over 800 deaths a day, 5,000 new cases a day, Government manipulation of figures and no real sign of it decreasing.
And then people on here wonder why I hate other people so much. L'enfer, c'est les autres.
MyNameIsTerry
27-04-20, 15:55
Unfortunately Pample there are f...wits who will continue too keep being F..wits.
We had 12 professional rugby league players caught camping on a property riding quads an unlicensed firearm and the usual drunkard behaviour,I’m no prude but these footballers are total effing idiots.
We've had a couple of cases of pro footballers having parties. But pro footballers tend to be plonkers at the best if times anyway...
So that's the level the UK is nominally at, but others want less despite us still having over 800 deaths a day, 5,000 new cases a day, Government manipulation of figures and no real sign of it decreasing.
And then people on here wonder why I hate other people so much. L'enfer, c'est les autres.
I'm not quite sure as to whether our govt are literally manipulating our CV figures (both deaths and new infections), but I definitely agree they have been rather hodge-podge from the off.
And I personally think that our lockdown should have began at least a fortnight earlier than it did.
I'm sure I read on the BBC website the other day that one possible reason for the 'new cases' stats still remaining stubbornly high ATM is due to increasing numbers of people being tested for the virus rather than increases in actual new infections. Similar to our crime stats also being very vague and 'hodge-podge' for many years (though that's all for another thread).
Ahhhhha, I did start my lockdown 2 weeks earlier than the govt specified. I know a few sciency peeps and they said that it should have been happening at a certain point, so I went ahead and locked right on down lol
WiseMonkey
28-04-20, 02:31
So that's the level the UK is nominally at, but others want less despite us still having over 800 deaths a day, 5,000 new cases a day, Government manipulation of figures and no real sign of it decreasing.
And then people on here wonder why I hate other people so much. L'enfer, c'est les autres.
My gawd! with these numbers still happening everyone should be in complete lockdown (level 4). The virus will keep spreading unless people take directives seriously, the big problem is poor leadership from the top down ... crime against humanity :lac:
WiseMonkey
28-04-20, 02:44
Yes WM it is the same in my State we can now go for a walk in National Parks and drive 50ks but only 2 people allowed in the car.
Our Premier is very strict on the rules she has upped the fines.
Good on her, there's nothing like strong women leaders in times of crisis (NZ PM Jacinda Ardern & Premier of Queensland, Aust Annastacia Palaszcuzk) :yesyes:
MyNameIsTerry
28-04-20, 04:35
That link's broken, Terry.
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/proteste-gegen-corona-massnahmen-in-berlin-und-stuttgart-mehr-als-100-festnahmen-bei-demo-am-rosa-luxemburg-platz/25774122.html
Thanks Pamplemousse. Fixed it, it works now even if it still looks broken. Thanks for posting an alternative link.
Pamplemousse
28-04-20, 18:02
Thanks Pamplemousse. Fixed it, it works now even if it still looks broken. Thanks for posting an alternative link.
Even if it is in German!
So how long should this lockdown last? England says one thing Scotland says another?
So how long should this lockdown last? England says one thing Scotland says another?
The course of action for England will be announced on Sunday.
In the meantime, nothing has really changed.
Is anybody worried we will become a police state now this will all be over? And these immunity passports and plane seats empty and expensive tickets? The poor become poorer it seems
The course of action for England will be announced on Sunday.
In the meantime, nothing has really changed.
Very sad how it’s England only. One would think Scotland was independent already.
Very sad how it’s England only. One would think Scotland was independent already.
It’s a developed power. Wales and Northern Ireland are in the same boat. To be honest I don’t agree much at all with Sturgeon but I think it’s fair to say that England, for the most part, are ahead of Scotland in terms of virus peak. The numbers in London alone suggest that.
Scotland’s health service is coping but I’m led to believe that our ICU’s are in a far worse state than most of England. Our infection rates are steady but they’re still too high for a nation of our size. I actually think lockdown relaxation should be county based even in England. It’s very obvious that certain parts of the country are ahead in the peak, so those counties should be treated differently in terms of lockdown rules.
It’s a developed power. Wales and Northern Ireland are in the same boat. To be honest I don’t agree much at all with Sturgeon but I think it’s fair to say that England, for the most part, are ahead of Scotland in terms of virus peak. The numbers in London alone suggest that.
Scotland’s health service is coping but I’m led to believe that our ICU’s are in a far worse state than most of England. Our infection rates are steady but they’re still too high for a nation of our size. I actually think lockdown relaxation should be county based even in England. It’s very obvious that certain parts of the country are ahead in the peak, so those counties should be treated differently in terms of lockdown rules.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Gary.
We have to bite the bullet and start exploring other possible avenues as a means of managing this virus pandemic within our own shores at some point, we can't remain a slave to this virus and stay cooped up forever, though it was necessary in the beginning.
Pamplemousse
07-05-20, 17:08
But how does that work if people live in one county and commute to work in another - for example, let's say Peterborough to London?
Is anybody worried we will become a police state now this will all be over?
No, why should we be ? I'm sure they will happily go back to dealing with their usual crimes and paperwork once they are relieved of the duties of fining those who transgress the lockdown. Its not going to be 'over' for ages anyway, there are going to be small and steady changes to the situation, and they could reverse back to lockdown if data shows its necessary.
MyNameIsTerry
07-05-20, 21:35
But how does that work if people live in one county and commute to work in another - for example, let's say Peterborough to London?
Exactly my question, Pamplemousse. Whilst I agree we need flexible solutions I question how on earth they can ensure them. Employers can furlough staff and prevent unnecessary travel but there will always be an element who will defy it. Would it be an acceptable risk?
I'm more thinking about those of us living in places like the West Midlands where it common to commute into areas that right now are much worse off than where we live.
Crossing country borders can't be controlled. It is a wider reaching question that affects the EU too. But I think all approaches should be about collaboration, certainly within the UK, and not made in isolation.
MyNameIsTerry
07-05-20, 21:39
No, why should we be ? I'm sure they will happily go back to dealing with their usual crimes and paperwork once they are relieved of the duties of fining those who transgress the lockdown. Its not going to be 'over' for ages anyway, there are going to be small and steady changes to the situation, and they could reverse back to lockdown if data shows its necessary.
It's the realm of the conspiracy theorists complaining about censure and loss of freedom that is stoking up worry over a future that may never happen. The slow creep as they see freedoms, like the ability to do anything on the internet, erode. I wonder how many people even care about that or think it a price worth paying to shut down online crime...
But phil you need to stop catastrophizing. It doesn't have to Tory fascism or Labour communism. It's just certain media outlets playing their tribal games...
The realm of conspiracy theory really bothers me hugely. I don't understand it and it feels so illogical and alien - the mindset that brings about conspiracy theory, is it one that has been studied and the reasons for it ?
Our State borders are closed If you have to travel -say from Tweed Heads to Coolangatta which is on the Qld NSW border for work you get a government permit and temperature check when crossing other than fly in/fly out workers you are not allowed to travel interstate care workers can.I left NSW and had to self isolate for 14 days when I entered Qld. It is what we call Grey Nomad season normally heading north for the winter Caravan parks are closed.
I know here in QLD we won’t be opening up the state for awhile.The clusters are mainly in and around the Brisbane area
and the Sunshine and Gold Coast.
People have tried too cross the boarder but get fined when caught.
Stay safe everyone.
The realm of conspiracy theory really bothers me hugely. I don't understand it and it feels so illogical and alien - the mindset that brings about conspiracy theory, is it one that has been studied and the reasons for it ?
People don’t like the idea that “shit happens”, they feel more comfortable if there’s a big operating hand behind it all. Thats my guess anyway.
A need to make sense of the ambiguous with a concrete "reason" and explanation?
WiseMonkey
08-05-20, 08:54
Our State borders are closed If you have to travel -say from Tweed Heads to Coolangatta which is on the Qld NSW border for work you get a government permit and temperature check when crossing other than fly in/fly out workers you are not allowed to travel interstate care workers can.I left NSW and had to self isolate for 14 days when I entered Qld. It is what we call Grey Nomad season normally heading north for the winter Caravan parks are closed.
I know here in QLD we won’t be opening up the state for awhile.The clusters are mainly in and around the Brisbane area
and the Sunshine and Gold Coast.
People have tried too cross the boarder but get fined when caught.
Stay safe everyone.
Sounds reasonable and obviously the reason why QLD has such low numbers of new Covid19 cases. I'm glad the idiot border crossing flouters are getting fined :curse:
People don’t like the idea that “shit happens”, they feel more comfortable if there’s a big operating hand behind it all. Thats my guess anyway.
A need to make sense of the ambiguous with a concrete "reason" and explanation?
That makes sense for many conspiracy theories, but what about those when there are already rational and logical explanations and they are cast in side in favour of the bizzarre.
It's the realm of the conspiracy theorists complaining about censure and loss of freedom that is stoking up worry over a future that may never happen. The slow creep as they see freedoms, like the ability to do anything on the internet, erode. I wonder how many people even care about that or think it a price worth paying to shut down online crime...
But phil you need to stop catastrophizing. It doesn't have to Tory fascism or Labour communism. It's just certain media outlets playing their tribal games...
Correct Terry. Always have done, always will!!
That makes sense for many conspiracy theories, but what about those when there are already rational and logical explanations and they are cast in side in favour of the bizzarre.
Definitely Carys. Anything deemed 'edgy', 'beyond the pale', 'pushing the boundaries' and 'plain unthinkable' has always been and will probably always be considered 'cool' and 'attention-grabbing'.
Controversy always sells in some form or another. Twas ever thus.
A need to make sense of the ambiguous with a concrete "reason" and explanation?I think this is the main reason for CT, we feel threatened by the unknown and being able to explain it away is reassuring. And if we look 'cool' or cleverer than all the sheep, that's a bonus.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that people who are swayed by CT lack self esteem, and belonging to an 'elite club' is an attractive prospect. Many cult members get controlled by their gurus because the cult leaders see that need to belong and take full advantage. Religion has been doing that for a very long time?
The realm of conspiracy theory really bothers me hugely. I don't understand it and it feels so illogical and alien - the mindset that brings about conspiracy theory, is it one that has been studied and the reasons for it ?
There’s a good article in The New Yorker about it today. Matt Haig linked to it via instagram, but I’m sure you can just google it.
That makes sense for many conspiracy theories, but what about those when there are already rational and logical explanations and they are cast in side in favour of the bizzarre.
I think fear plays a big part in it along with uncertainty and a morbid attraction to the macabre and bizarre?
I think this is the main reason for CT, we feel threatened by the unknown and being able to explain it away is reassuring. And if we look 'cool' or cleverer than all the sheep, that's a bonus.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that people who are swayed by CT lack self esteem, and belonging to an 'elite club' is an attractive prospect. Many cult members get controlled by their gurus because the cult leaders see that need to belong and take full advantage. Religion has been doing that for a very long time?
They are a very vulnerable group of people in my opinion and easily targeted by those wishing to exploit and recruit.
MyNameIsTerry
08-05-20, 21:39
I think all of the above. Some are mentally unwell and find themselves drawn into it. It's a delusion for them. Some do it to be cool, other, anti, radical, rebel, etc. Some do it because they need something to feel they are someone. Some do it due to religious connections or a need for persecution/martyrdom.
Then we have a different breed. Those that make money off it just as the likes of Katie Hopkins, who I don't think believes what she peddles, and 'he who can't be named' who says proven science is incorrect and gets caught out for hypocrisy when really challenged.
And adding to this what about the bots and false flags in their own community using them to spread nonsense? Social media is a powerful tool to today's intelligence agency...or am I talking like a CTer? :doh:
Yes the last sentence Terry, you're saying we should all be deleting our FB and Twitter accounts? :winks:
What interests and concerns me is why people seek to categorise and place others in a "box". We see this throughout society now and a good example is mental illness. We know all the different types of anxiety disorders, which are simply different expressions/manifestations of the same underlying condition - ie, anxiety. Even depression apparently occurs in different manifestations. Well, yeah, aren't we all unique in our life circumstances? No one is ever a perfect "textbook case" of any psychiatric disorder. But fear not! Big Pharma has the solution for all mental ills :lac:
However, in focusing on the expressions of mental illness, we move away from seeing the root causes. And by placing someone in a box - focusing on their outward predilections, leanings and behaviour - we move away from seeing the real person. It is a form of prejudice and judgement.
Perhaps in many cases, we can't be bothered to see the real person. So much easier to chuck them in a box and shut the lid.
Or maybe someone is just being basically called an arse because they’re acting like an arse?
Mental illness exists and it should absolutely be explored, it really shouldn’t be used as an excuse to act like...you know, an arse.
MyNameIsTerry
09-05-20, 04:14
Yes the last sentence Terry, you're saying we should all be deleting our FB and Twitter accounts? :winks:
Just to add to my CTer status, fishman...I've never had an account with either not plan to. But therefore because years ago it just used to be people one upping each other at work and later on those sites seem to have a lot of fighting on them which really didn't need with my GAD.
I think if I did sign up it would only be for loved ones or clubs.
MyNameIsTerry
09-05-20, 04:22
What interests and concerns me is why people seek to categorise and place others in a "box". We see this throughout society now and a good example is mental illness. We know all the different types of anxiety disorders, which are simply different expressions/manifestations of the same underlying condition - ie, anxiety. Even depression apparently occurs in different manifestations. Well, yeah, aren't we all unique in our life circumstances? No one is ever a perfect "textbook case" of any psychiatric disorder. But fear not! Big Pharma has the solution for all mental ills :lac:
However, in focusing on the expressions of mental illness, we move away from seeing the root causes. And by placing someone in a box - focusing on their outward predilections, leanings and behaviour - we move away from seeing the real person. It is a form of prejudice and judgement.
Perhaps in many cases, we can't be bothered to see the real person. So much easier to chuck them in a box and shut the lid.
In terms of a discussion about mental health I would agree. I think there is a use in labels because they help to guide the strategy to work on them. However there are many negatives too.
But in a discussion about CTers, which I assume you mean, it's only some who may have mental health problems in my opinion. And the reason I mentioned it was because of the paranoia of certain conditions along with delusional behaviour. People experiencing psychosis can be sucked in by others who may not do so if they understood the person's mental health issues (not everyone is bad in CT circles I would have thought).
The other examples I thought are more those without mental health issues although as was pointed out above self esteem issues can be found in some which may overlap into the ones I mentioned having religious connections or searching for something to make them feel more than they are.
The term "conspiracy theorist" was coined by the CIA to discredit those who were questioning the official JFK assassination story. It's another magic word like "racist" or "anti-Semite" which is used to shut down public discourse and scare people off from looking into certain things. In reality, there is no such thing as conspiracy theories, only truth and lies. You need hate speech laws to protect lies, not the truth.
There is conspiracy at every level of society and people have been conspiring against eachother since the beginning of time. Secret societies have always existed, from the Knights Templar to the Freemasons and Skull & Bones. The Bilderberg meeting is attended every year by heads of banks, oil companies, arms manufactures, top politicians and media persons. The meeting takes place under a complete media blackout, they operate under Chatham House rules and meeting minutes are not released to the public. Presidents and Prime Ministers are selected at these meetings.
https://pics.me.me/everything-the-state-says-is-a-lie-and-everything-it-22410664.png
We should change it from conspiracy theorist to bullshit artist. That way the lines are less blurred.
Pamplemousse
09-05-20, 10:17
Just to add to my CTer status, fishman...I've never had an account with either not plan to. But therefore because years ago it just used to be people one upping each other at work and later on those sites seem to have a lot of fighting on them which really didn't need with my GAD.
I think if I did sign up it would only be for loved ones or clubs.
Considering the very real damage that social media has caused to Western society in particular (Zuckerberg, Dorsey, I'm looking at you) I too would never have anything to do with them. I was heartbroken when Faceache bought WhatsApp, so now I have removed that from my phone. It's bad enough being tracked by Google on my phone - maybe I should return to a basic Nokia.
Of course, the irony of complaining about social media on a web forum is not lost on me!
The term "conspiracy theorist" was coined by the CIA to discredit those who were questioning the official JFK assassination story. It's another magic word like "racist" or "anti-Semite" which is used to shut down public discourse and scare people off from looking into certain things. In reality, there is no such thing as conspiracy theories, only truth and lies. You need hate speech laws to protect lies, not the truth.
There is conspiracy at every level of society and people have been conspiring against eachother since the beginning of time. Secret societies have always existed, from the Knights Templar to the Freemasons and Skull & Bones. The Bilderberg meeting is attended every year by heads of banks, oil companies, arms manufactures, top politicians and media persons. The meeting takes place under a complete media blackout, they operate under Chatham House rules and meeting minutes are not released to the public. Presidents and Prime Ministers are selected at these meetings.
https://pics.me.me/everything-the-state-says-is-a-lie-and-everything-it-22410664.png
It’s nothing like racist or anti-Semite.
Pamplemousse
09-05-20, 11:31
I think a few people are trying to stir trouble on YT live chats by chucking in "plandemic" ATM:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52565764
Pamplemousse
09-05-20, 12:15
Some might like to have a look at this site.
https://ncase.me/covid-19/
Considering the very real damage that social media has caused to Western society in particular (Zuckerberg, Dorsey, I'm looking at you) I too would never have anything to do with them. I was heartbroken when Faceache bought WhatsApp, so now I have removed that from my phone. It's bad enough being tracked by Google on my phone - maybe I should return to a basic Nokia.
Of course, the irony of complaining about social media on a web forum is not lost on me!
I kind of agree with you, but surely, if social media suddenly ceased to exist and was consigned to history from tomorrow onwards, it would only be a matter of time before it became superseded by other mediums which would inadvertently become the latest in a long line of scapegoats for contemporary society's ills. Societal hysteria and moral panics over the perceived impacts of and threats pertaining to various mediums have abounded since time immemorial. For example, 'Rock 'N' Roll' music on 7-inch vinyl singles in the 50s, portable audio cassette recorders and the 'Home taping is killing music' thing in the late 70s and early 80s, video 'nasties' on VHS tapes in the 80s and early 90s, more realistic and 'graphic' video games in the noughties, you name it.
But, of course, it's generally the misuse of the mediums that is the problem, not the actual mediums themselves.
WiseMonkey
09-05-20, 14:15
Some might like to have a look at this site.
https://ncase.me/covid-19/
Had a quick squiz at this, not in-depth otherwise I'll be having weird dreams (it's 1:15 am Sun morning here). I bet Ashley Bloomfield's read it though. :D
Pamplemousse
09-05-20, 14:26
But, of course, it's generally the misuse of the mediums that is the problem, not the actual mediums themselves.
This is the inherent problem though. By making access to potentially huge audiences so easy and universal, it becomes equally easy to subvert and manipulate. YouTube seemed to go "off-air" briefly yesterday - I wonder if it was dealing with the video mentioned in the BBC link?
This is the inherent problem though. By making access to potentially huge audiences so easy and universal, it becomes equally easy to subvert and manipulate. YouTube seemed to go "off-air" briefly yesterday - I wonder if it was dealing with the video mentioned in the BBC link?
Very likely, but it does seem like YouTube have attempted to tone things down a bit over the past couple of years anyway, as for a long time (particularly during their earlier years), it seemed to be a 'Wild West' of videos/content where anything goes, even the sickest of material glorifying terrorism, child abuse, etc, plus the comment forums at the bottom of each page being littered with endless F and C-bombs, and of course, being a hotbed for racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, xenophobia, you name it.
I'm no prude in the grand scheme of things, and have seen and heard all sorts over the years (not always through any real choice of my own), such as being present at a show that my brother's old cover band were opening for the late Bernard Manning in a working men's club about 20 years ago, whose filthy gags just went over my head at the time but would probably make me flinch nowadays.
We should change it from conspiracy theorist to bullshit artist. That way the lines are less blurred.
You do make some crass comments, Gary :lac:
When police are investigating a crime, do they blindly accept the version of events claimed by chief suspects unless there is solid evidence? If not, do they dismiss other versions of events as "conspiracy theories" because they contradict the accounts of the suspects? At this stage it is still a theory but that doesn't stop them investigating it further until more evidence is gathered. Then they will go with a line of investigation or drop it and move to the next "conspiracy theory" until they solve the crime.
Likewise, the only reason we believe "authority" is because we're conditioned to do so. Rarely do we, like the police, investigate what they tell us is the truth, even in the absence of real evidence. And in the case of govts, they don't have a particularly good track record of always being truthful. In fact, we see corruption all the time. Yet in times of crisis they become paragons of veracity, virtue and truth, and anyone on the fence questioning their motives is attacked and discredited using pejorative and derogative terms like "conspiracy theorist" (see "mentally unhinged", "loon", "troll", "moron" etc).
Hence, you could be called a "coincidence theorist", because even in the presence of glaring anomalies, conflicting information and unanswered questions, you contend that such events are simply coincidences that are out of anyone's control.
MyNameIsTerry
09-05-20, 16:07
It’s nothing like racist or anti-Semite.
Agreed. A conspiracy theorist is not viewed with the same disdain as a racist. It's just another way to claim they are being persecuted.
Certainly people falsely label others to shut them down by making they seem bad people. They also try to discredit them this way.
In this case though it's pulling a card to become the victim. We've asked for evidence, we've challenged points made. Nothing of more has come back and now we are into victimhood in an attempt to deride valid challenges, something those falsely labelling others, as Hollow has attempted to raise, also do. It saves having to defend their points and produce credible evidence.
And then there is the thread shut down route.
I'm also shaking my head at his point that you need hate speech laws to protect lies. You need hate speech laws to protect innocent people from vile scumbags.
Pamplemousse
09-05-20, 18:25
5049
Hence, you could be called a "coincidence theorist", because even in the presence of glaring anomalies, conflicting information and unanswered questions, you contend that such events are simply coincidences that are out of anyone's control.
Anomalies are everywhere, in any version of events. The theory of gravity is probably the most widely accepted theory in science but even that has anomalies.
I think you’ve got me a bit twisted here. Unanswered questions and conflicting information I can well accept, what I don’t accept is some utter know nothing attempting to fill that void with unsubstantiated nonsense. It’s not even an attempt, it’s an arrogant blowhard who reckons they’ve found a hole so that means said hole must surely accommodate their version of events.
Opinions are fine. If someone wants to say “well, I don’t really know but in my opinion....” I’m all ears. However, folk who indulge in these conspiracy theories NEVER utter the phrase “I don’t know.”
It’s known as the God of the gaps argument. When an unknown arises or an unanswered question rears it’s head, it is filled with all manner of nonsense. That’s when I get wound up, because it does no good to any argument to start throwing wild explanations at an unknown.
It’s like UFO’s, for instance. I’ve never understood how anyone can say a UFO is an alien craft. How did you get there? The term “UFO” literally states that this is a flying object that is unidentified. So, because you don’t know what it is, all of a sudden it’s an alien craft that’s flown goodness knows how many light years to wander our skies? Again, god of the gaps. “I don’t know what it is therefore it is...”
We now see the good old retreat of your everyday internet tin foil hat merchant. When they’re called out, they play the victim. They act like they’re being suppressed and given unfair labels. It’s boring.
You seem to be able to engage in a debate and whilst you’re pointing out holes or inconsistencies, at the very least you aren’t trying to fill them with rubbish. I respect that completely and will always try to engage you in reasonable debate. Your mate, however, is playing a game and I’m not for allowing that. Sorry, but that’s just how I am.
Some might like to have a look at this site.
https://ncase.me/covid-19/Crikey when you've looked at this site, you realise just how complex things are. But why on earth did we stop contact tracing??
Crikey when you've looked at this site, you realise just how complex things are. But why on earth did we stop contact tracing??
The UK governments original policy on testing and contact tracing was nothing short of a joke. For the first two months of this virus being on our shores they were only testing those that arrived at hospital with suggestive symptoms.
In my opinion this allowed this virus to gain a foothold that we’re now playing catch up with. Hopefully they’ve learned the lesson now but I genuinely believe thousands of preventable deaths have occurred due to this original approach.
WiseMonkey
10-05-20, 00:45
Crikey when you've looked at this site, you realise just how complex things are. But why on earth did we stop contact tracing??
And that's the positive action that NZ health officials in NZ did, they started contact tracing as soon as the first few cases of Covid 19 hit our shores. They got the timing right. It was at this stage that the PM announced that she was putting NZ into Alert Level 2. Two days later it was upped to Alert Level 3 and she announced that in 48 hrs time from then, we'd shift into Level 4 (complete lockdown). During this time cases of Covid19 were significantly rising! Then borders were closed except for Kiwis returning home.
It was these actions that saved thousands of NZ lives which would have been devastating in a country of only 5 million. (Eire which has the same population and 1,500 deaths) NZ has 21 deaths (all people over 60 with pre-existing health conditions).
So ... right timing, concise intelligent decision making, and the ability to get NZers on-side to lockdown, were the crucial factors to getting this virus under control. But it's still out there, slowly smouldering away within the boundaries of contained clusters. So even as we step down to Level 2, testing is being increased, checking for any signs of silent community spread, so far so good but it only takes 1 stray case and away it goes again!!
ps. One positive of our sustained lockdown is that there are hardly any other respiratory illnesses around, like colds and 'flu's as these have to come from overseas travel, which there hasn't been any of. The PM has reiterated that anyone with a sore throat, cough etc should immediately seek a Covid19 test :)
MyNameIsTerry
10-05-20, 04:19
:wall:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/09/stupid-street-party-ignoring-lockdown-rules-continued-early-morning-12678684/amp/
What's the point of police powers if they count for nothing? :doh:
WiseMonkey
10-05-20, 04:53
:wall:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/09/stupid-street-party-ignoring-lockdown-rules-continued-early-morning-12678684/amp/
What's the point of police powers if they count for nothing? :doh:
Looks like the police are limited in what they can do faced with the hordes of flouters out there. plus some police were joining them WTF, they do need to set the example!
Plus people are over it because the lockdown didn't happen early enough and with consistency! Nothing short of the govt. enforcing a nationwide lockdown with military & police patrolling the streets (which they won't do) will anything change!
I sense your frustration and I don't even live there, I don't know what can be done :lac:
Pamplemousse
10-05-20, 13:21
Well, it is going to get worse in the UK from today.
The hands that guide Johnson (because a Classics scholar has no use) has decided that instead of Stay at home - Protect the NHS - Save Lives it should now become Stay Alert - Control The Virus - Save Lives.
This is that "Take Back Control" ******** again, isn't it? Funny how 52% voted against being run by "unelected bureaucrats" to allow themselves to be run by... an unelected bureaucrat, isn't it? Well, idiots are always going to be idiots.
Britain - governed by slogan. Well, you voted for a fat liar with alley-cat morals because you wanted your precious Brexit, I hope you reap the whirlwind of ventilation in ICU.
Pamplemousse
10-05-20, 13:25
Crikey when you've looked at this site, you realise just how complex things are. But why on earth did we stop contact tracing??
Costs money and too difficult. This is the "herd immunity" game theory again.
Well, it is going to get worse in the UK from today.
The hands that guide Johnson (because a Classics scholar has no use) has decided that instead of Stay at home - Protect the NHS - Save Lives it should now become Stay Alert - Control The Virus - Save Lives.
This is that "Take Back Control" ******** again, isn't it? Funny how 52% voted against being run by "unelected bureaucrats" to allow themselves to be run by... an unelected bureaucrat, isn't it? Well, idiots are always going to be idiots.
Britain - governed by slogan. Well, you voted for a fat liar with alley-cat morals because you wanted your precious Brexit, I hope you reap the whirlwind of ventilation in ICU.
What's this got to do with Brexit though?
What does Johnson's size have to do with him being a liar, for that matter?
Sorry to derail, just putting it out there.
Pamplemousse
10-05-20, 13:37
Obesity is a contributory factor to Covid-19 survival and before anyone starts getting precious about fat-shaming, I'm more than a few stone over what's good for me too.
As far as the Tories are concerned, we're expendable but hey, blue passports. Not that you'll be able to use them as we'll be an unwelcome plague state for years.
Pamplemousse
10-05-20, 13:38
What's this got to do with Brexit though?
Read the message again. If you can't see the point being made, I can't help you.
Read the message again. If you can't see the point being made, I can't help you.
It's only an updated slogan at the end of the day and nothing to do with Brexit IMO.
And dare I say it, I find the policies of Johnson and Co and the whole Brexit affair just as distasteful as you (and many others) probably do.
Well, it is going to get worse in the UK from today.
The hands that guide Johnson (because a Classics scholar has no use) has decided that instead of Stay at home - Protect the NHS - Save Lives it should now become Stay Alert - Control The Virus - Save Lives.
This is that "Take Back Control" ******** again, isn't it? Funny how 52% voted against being run by "unelected bureaucrats" to allow themselves to be run by... an unelected bureaucrat, isn't it? Well, idiots are always going to be idiots.
Britain - governed by slogan. Well, you voted for a fat liar with alley-cat morals because you wanted your precious Brexit, I hope you reap the whirlwind of ventilation in ICU.
We know you are terrified, pamplemousse but your posts are getting extreme now. You have the option to stay at home and hibernate if you want to. Look after yourself and don't concern yourself with what is going on if you loathe and detest it?
Personally think that if you’re confused by a slogan it’s your own lack of a brain that’s going to get you into bother.
For weeks people have been pressing the government for a plan on exiting lockdown, now a slogan has been put out there and everyone is losing their minds.
Perhaps we should actually wait and see what’s said first and see what the actual plan is before we start sharpening our knives.
We know you are terrified, pamplemousse but your posts are getting extreme now. You have the option to stay at home and hibernate if you want to. Look after yourself and don't concern yourself with what is going on if you loathe and detest it?
As terrible and terrifying as it is, we cannot remain slaves to this virus and collectively hide ourselves away forever.
Whilst I agree that the lockdown was most certainly necessary at the time it was first imposed, the powers that be have to at some point 'bite the bullet' and start to explore other possible avenues in pursuit of some 'gradual' return to normality, even if only on a 'trial-and-error' basis. Other countries within mainland Europe have already relaxed certain restrictions and so far (touch wood) there have been no reports of any massive upticks in CV cases (at least not of any major significance), whilst Sweden strangely never even imposed any lockdowns at all.
I'm still more than prepared to be slaughtered for saying this!!
Pamplemousse
10-05-20, 14:35
We know you are terrified, pamplemousse but your posts are getting extreme now. You have the option to stay at home and hibernate if you want to. Look after yourself and don't concern yourself with what is going on if you loathe and detest it?
I'm as much angry as terrified. I am angry that my fellow citizens are effectively being told to take their chances on dying because Sterling and ideology is more important than they are.
Personally think that if you’re confused by a slogan it’s your own lack of a brain that’s going to get you into bother.
For weeks people have been pressing the government for a plan on exiting lockdown, now a slogan has been put out there and everyone is losing their minds.
Perhaps we should actually wait and see what’s said first and see what the actual plan is before we start sharpening our knives.
Spot on Gary, we should all just 'wait and see' before jumping to quick conclusions.
WiseMonkey
10-05-20, 14:44
As terrible and terrifying as it is, we cannot remain slaves to this virus and collectively hide ourselves away forever.
Whilst I agree that the lockdown was most certainly necessary at the time it was first imposed, the powers that be have to at some point 'bite the bullet' and start to explore other possible avenues in pursuit of some 'gradual' return to normality, even if only on a 'trial-and-error' basis. Other countries within mainland Europe have already relaxed certain restrictions and so far (touch wood) there have been no reports of any massive upticks in CV cases (at least not of any major significance), whilst Sweden strangely never even imposed any lockdowns at all.
I'm still more than prepared to be slaughtered for saying this!!
Sweden has still got higher rates of infection and deaths from Covid19, than it's neighbours, Norway and Denmark who are in lockdown and have closed borders. Admittedly Sweden has twice the population of these other countries.
Sweden has still got higher rates of infection and deaths from Covid19, than it's neighbours, Norway and Denmark who are in lockdown and have closed borders. Admittedly Sweden has twice the population of these other countries.
Strangely there doesn't seem to be that much of a big deal being made out of the situation in Sweden, and they don't appear to be 'named and shamed' in big ways over their lack of lockdowns, unlike the UK (and USA) being 'named and shamed' due to our lockdowns being administered too late!!
MyNameIsTerry
10-05-20, 19:36
Personally think that if you’re confused by a slogan it’s your own lack of a brain that’s going to get you into bother.
For weeks people have been pressing the government for a plan on exiting lockdown, now a slogan has been put out there and everyone is losing their minds.
Perhaps we should actually wait and see what’s said first and see what the actual plan is before we start sharpening our knives.
Could have been worse we could had something purile like Cobblers To Coronavirus...
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