View Full Version : Nate Silver: Coronavirus Case Counts Are Meaningless*
Panicattacka
08-04-20, 08:33
*Unless you know something about testing. And even then, it gets complicated...
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/coronavirus-case-counts-are-meaningless/
Basically the figures that PHE puts out are meaningless in the respect that they do no reflect the current status of active infection and when that occurred, and the mortality rates are at anything up to 10 days out of date. PHE has now realized that people are actually tracking the daily figures to try and make sense of things ... the fact that most of the population is stuck at home, running out of things to do and has turned to Worldometer and the JHU database doesn't help - and PHE is now backtracking to stop the general public from getting over-confident in what appeared to be up until now, falling numbers of reported cases. Pity they can't stop the meanest intelligence (the media) from jumping all over these 'facts' to engineer apocalyptic scenarios and spurious reports, and getting it all wrong in the process.
The phrase too much information comes to mind - especially when they can't even quantify the accuracy of that information. Maybe ignorance would have been bliss ... but then they couldn't have controlled the population and terrified it into submission. If PHE is going to continue to spew out data then it should at least credited the population with some intelligence and explained at the outset how that data is accumulated and how to read it properly in context. If they can't do that then don't bother!!
I'm no expert but if I am reading the recent pronouncements of PHE correctly, then what we are seeing at the moment is the state of the spread anything up to a month ago (mortality data) and the new confirmed cases contracted up to two weeks ago. If this is correct then this all preceded the lockdown and social-distancing put in force ... which would make sense. We have had two weeks of lockdown going into a third so if a plateau is to be seen and the efficacy of lockdown measures proved, the end of April should show the slowing of infection rates seen in Italy and Spain. The UK is running about two weeks behind them.
Any of course we are only talking about those poor souls that were sick enough to end up in hospital. In the absence of systematic testing of the wider population whether for COVID or for antibody, we are never really going to be able to make any sense of the true situation.
Basically the figures that PHE puts out are meaningless in the respect that they do no reflect the current status of active infection and when that occurred, and the mortality rates are at anything up to 10 days out of date. PHE has now realized that people are actually tracking the daily figures to try and make sense of things ... the fact that most of the population is stuck at home, running out of things to do and has turned to Worldometer and the JHU database doesn't help - and PHE is now backtracking to stop the general public from getting over-confident in what appeared to be up until now, falling numbers of reported cases. Pity they can't stop the meanest intelligence (the media) from jumping all over these 'facts' to engineer apocalyptic scenarios and spurious reports, and getting it all wrong in the process.
The phrase too much information comes to mind - especially when they can't even quantify the accuracy of that information. Maybe ignorance would have been bliss ... but then they couldn't have controlled the population and terrified it into submission. If PHE is going to continue to spew out data then it should at least credited the population with some intelligence and explained at the outset how that data is accumulated and how to read it properly in context. If they can't do that then don't bother!!
I'm no expert but if I am reading the recent pronouncements of PHE correctly, then what we are seeing at the moment is the state of the spread anything up to a month ago (mortality data) and the new confirmed cases contracted up to two weeks ago. If this is correct then this all preceded the lockdown and social-distancing put in force ... which would make sense. We have had two weeks of lockdown going into a third so if a plateau is to be seen and the efficacy of lockdown measures proved, the end of April should show the slowing of infection rates seen in Italy and Spain. The UK is running about two weeks behind them.
Any of course we are only talking about those poor souls that were sick enough to end up in hospital. In the absence of systematic testing of the wider population whether for COVID or for antibody, we are never really going to be able to make any sense of the true situation.
Still all very confusing, as far as I am concerned.
The press really are the pits at times, even The Guardian had the nerve to put out an article today speculating that we (the UK) could be the worst in Europe for CV deaths (allegedly stated by someone in the USA, I think), as if they are still exploiting this situation to the max. And I can't understand why do certain journalists keep doing down this country pushing the 'UK the worst for nearly eveything' narrative, even during 'normal' times. Really does my nut in!!
I agree with you wholeheartedly about PHE, their lack of clarity on the CV data coupled with the endless chopping and changing of the stats count. I just wish they had been more specific from the off when explaining the situation, including possible anomalies due to circumstances, etc, but sadly, still seemingly reported on an 'as-is' basis without any proper explanation.
The “new infections” data is pretty much worthless as far as a week to week comparison, especially in the face of constantly rising amounts of testing.
New deaths give a slightly better idea but even then it takes time to process deaths and of course, most of those that die have been ill and hospitalised for a relatively long period of time.
The stand out data that absolutely cannot be manipulated is the hospital admissions. If you see a consistent levelling out and falling of those, then you can really start to put forth the idea that the infection rate is actually falling.
I’m actually quietly confident that within two weeks we will be seeing figures falling pretty consistently. Deaths, unfortunately will take a bit more time to start coming down due to how the virus works.
Quite agree Lencoboy with respect to the press - what on earth would they do if they didn't have endless apocalyptic data figures to misinterpret ... and a government and country to do down at every turn! PHE and the misguided early scientific advice profered to the government hasn't helped, but most countries whatever practices they have put in place are not much better off than here - even Germany with all its mass testing is starting to see a ramp up of infection spread.
I concur with Gary A that we should see which way the wind is really blowing by the end of this month.
MyNameIsTerry
08-04-20, 20:44
Still all very confusing, as far as I am concerned.
The press really are the pits at times, even The Guardian had the nerve to put out an article today speculating that we (the UK) could be the worst in Europe for CV deaths (allegedly stated by someone in the USA, I think), as if they are still exploiting this situation to the max. And I can't understand why do certain journalists keep doing down this country pushing the 'UK the worst for nearly eveything' narrative, even during 'normal' times. Really does my nut in!!
I agree with you wholeheartedly about PHE, their lack of clarity on the CV data coupled with the endless chopping and changing of the stats count. I just wish they had been more specific from the off when explaining the situation, including possible anomalies due to circumstances, etc, but sadly, still seemingly reported on an 'as-is' basis without any proper explanation.
Because isn't that what The Guardian is well known for? Brexit has easily shown people that I would have thought. Through that period they revelled in doom in the hope of a told you so at the end just before all the lights went out and we went back to the Stone Age :biggrin:
I read that article last night and what stood out straight away was how the current death numbers are much higher in that study for today. Perhaps that ties in with the prof from Imperial College saying their numbers are far too high due to how they have conducted the analysis?
Did anyone watch that interview with Icke last night on Channel 8? Leaving aside the fact that he can be quite a conspiracy theorist, loony-tunes central etc, what he implied about the major pharma industries and the increase in over-medication and use of antibiotics and the weakening of the immune system was some food for thought ... whether you pay him any heed or not. Frankly some of what he was saying is a reflection of what I've heard in conversations among the general public and the health industry over quite a long time ...
The NHS has been pushing the flu injection at anyone and everyone for quite a while - I was told that local GP surgeries get paid a fee for every inoculation they perform, and I haven't heard a single case where someone had the injection and it didn't make them ill. Who is benefiting from this? Porton Down was conducting continuous research on the common cold and other viruses in that group well until into the late 80s until they were shut down by the government. Government might have done better to keep it going ... particularly in the light of what is going on now.
Who knows....
David Icke is a conspiracy theorist lunatic who has a net worth of £10 million, all earned by selling absolute nonsense to incredibly gullible people. He has a conspiracy for everything, all designed, of course, to inflate his bank balance. The man is a charlatan and an idiot.
ankietyjoe
09-04-20, 18:04
The NHS has been pushing the flu injection at anyone and everyone for quite a while - I was told that local GP surgeries get paid a fee for every inoculation they perform, and I haven't heard a single case where someone had the injection and it didn't make them ill. Who is benefiting from this?
The current Coronavirus disaster is what happens in a world without vaccines. Vaccines are more about controlling mutations, it's about the prevention of a virus mutating into something far more dangerous that our immune system's cannot cope with as well. The anti vaccine crowd are simply ignorant spreaders of misinformation, twisting tiny scraps of truth into bewildering levels of conspiracy theory. They claim that vaccines contain poisons. Well they do, just like virtually ever single food we eat, to some extent. It's just ridiculous.
Quite agree - vaccines are necessary and over the decades have helped stamp out particularly childhood illnesses such as measles, mumps, TB ... although mutated new forms of all of these are staring to surface again. I was like many of us vaccinated as a child and had none of these ... the only thing i contracted was as an adult and this was chicken pox - nasty!
But is has to be said that in recent years the pushing of vaccines, health supplements, constant advertising of stuff to kill bacteria can mean that as humans we are teetering on the edge of not allowing the body to build up its own defences against the mildest of infections - vital or bacterial. Add processed food into the mix and it can be detrimental in all sorts of ways. Even the NHS has seen this, notably in their efforts in recent years to wean people off antibiotics and over-medicating to allow them to build up natural defence and immunity. In the case of the current virus though, I don't think any flu vaccine would have had any effect on it, since if what we are being told is to be believed, it was a virus in animals that passed to humans.
Did anyone watch that interview with Icke last night on Channel 8? Leaving aside the fact that he can be quite a conspiracy theorist, loony-tunes central etc, what he implied about the major pharma industries and the increase in over-medication and use of antibiotics and the weakening of the immune system was some food for thought ... whether you pay him any heed or not. Frankly some of what he was saying is a reflection of what I've heard in conversations among the general public and the health industry over quite a long time ...
The NHS has been pushing the flu injection at anyone and everyone for quite a while - I was told that local GP surgeries get paid a fee for every inoculation they perform, and I haven't heard a single case where someone had the injection and it didn't make them ill. Who is benefiting from this? Porton Down was conducting continuous research on the common cold and other viruses in that group well until into the late 80s until they were shut down by the government. Government might have done better to keep it going ... particularly in the light of what is going on now.
Who knows....
Don't really agree with David Icke on a lot of things but he's ripping this whole coronavirus narrative apart.
Don't really agree with David Icke on a lot of things but he's ripping this whole coronavirus narrative apart.
Is he? Tell us how?
MyNameIsTerry
12-04-20, 20:56
David Icke is a conspiracy theorist lunatic who has a net worth of £10 million, all earned by selling absolute nonsense to incredibly gullible people. He has a conspiracy for everything, all designed, of course, to inflate his bank balance. The man is a charlatan and an idiot.
And now we have idiots setting fire to 5g towers, and in one case not even 5g, and the government appealing to them not to listen to online nonsense by people like Icke. As usual not helped by some of our numerous supply of nutty celebs. :doh:
MyNameIsTerry
12-04-20, 21:00
Don't really agree with David Icke on a lot of things but he's ripping this whole coronavirus narrative apart.
Has he explained why non 5g countries are also getting it? Some seem to be holding Africa up as an example of why it's only 5g countries impacted, yet that's not the case. Being conspiracy theory though I'm sure it can easily be dismissed by claiming people ended up there after travelling through 5g countries and bringing it back.
Icke is not saying that 5G is causing the virus, his stance is that it doesn't exist. It's a hoax being perpetrated by the usual suspects. Although, it's highly suspicious why 5G is being rolled out under current circumstances. You would think it would come under the"non essential" category.
Icke is not saying that 5G is causing the virus, his stance is that it doesn't exist. It's a hoax being perpetrated by the usual suspects. Although, it's highly suspicious why 5G is being rolled out under current circumstances. You would think it would come under the"non essential" category.
1.8 million infected worldwide, over 100,000 dead, economies on their ar*e everywhere, the prime minister of the UK almost died, billions of people locked down in their homes.
But it’s a hoax because you and a guy who believes in lizard people say so.
Hilarious.
1.8 million infected worldwide, over 100,000 dead, economies on their ar*e everywhere, the prime minister of the UK almost died, billions of people locked down in their homes.
But it’s a hoax because you and a guy who believes in lizard people say so.
Hilarious.
People didn't die before or is everyone only dieing of the "Coronavirus" now? There is is no test for this, even the "experts" admit that. These symptoms can be caused by a million different things. Doesn't take a genius to work out that death certificates are being manipulated right now to produce these statistics.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lvxhU68ANB8/XpMtS7OZmAI/AAAAAAAAwC0/U7KNs98OcrozUH36eUNem-Kazc6Unks2wCLcBGAsYHQ/s280/coronavirus%2Bhospital%2B333.jpg
ankietyjoe
13-04-20, 12:50
Icke is not saying that 5G is causing the virus, his stance is that it doesn't exist. It's a hoax being perpetrated by the usual suspects. Although, it's highly suspicious why 5G is being rolled out under current circumstances. You would think it would come under the"non essential" category.
lol
I mean really, lol.
People didn't die before or is everyone only dieing of the "Coronavirus" now? There is is no test for this, even the "experts" admit that. These symptoms can be caused by a million different things. Doesn't take a genius to work out that death certificates are being manipulated right now to produce these statistics.
Nurses and doctors certainly weren’t dropping dead due to treating people who just so happened to be suffering from these symptoms. You might want to let those that are risking their lives every day to treat this illness while you sit in your pants scoffing at them that this is all a hoax. Also, there is a test, has been for quite some time.
For what you’re saying to be true (LOL) every doctor, nurse and immunologist, as well as epidemiologists and scientists worldwide would need to be in on this “hoax”, wouldn’t they?
I really don’t know why anyone should ignore the findings of world renowned experts and listen to cranks like David “the royal family are lizard people” Icke. Not that I would expect anything less from you, but jeez.
I have a friend that is working tirelessly in the Congo she is a nurse with World Vision and has been there for 18mths treating people with Ebola now it’s Covid19.As of yesterday they were washing masks and a shortage of gloves
I know the World Bank is “lending” money to Rwanda to help fight the virus but what about the other poor countries in Africa.
Oh no 5G network over there, I am lucky to get bloody 3G here it’s a joke:mad:
I have a friend that is working tirelessly in the Congo she is a nurse with World Vision and has been there for 18mths treating people with Ebola now it’s Covid19.As of yesterday they were washing masks and a shortage of gloves
I know the World Bank is “lending” money to Rwanda to help fight the virus but what about the other poor countries in Africa.
Oh no 5G network over there, I am lucky to get bloody 3G here it’s a joke:mad:
Tell her that she’s wasting her time, it’s all a hoax. David Icke and some guy on a forum said so.
ankietyjoe
13-04-20, 13:06
I would also need to rethink my friends list as I know two people that have definitely had it. My partner knows three, one is now dead.
The kind of people who think this is a hoax are the same kind of people who think the earth is flat, despite humanity having contraptions circling it from space. There is absolutely no point trying to reason with people like that. They believe opinion is just as valid as fact.
I would also need to rethink my friends list as I know two people that have definitely had it. My partner knows three, one is now dead.
The kind of people who think this is a hoax are the same kind of people who think the earth is flat, despite humanity having contraptions circling it from space. There is absolutely no point trying to reason with people like that. They believe opinion is just as valid as fact.
People like that lack the brain power to understand the real world so they come up with their own ideas and laugh at everyone else who don’t subscribe to their nuttery. It’s sad, but funny at the same time.
People didn't die before or is everyone only dieing of the "Coronavirus" now? There is is no test for this, even the "experts" admit that. These symptoms can be caused by a million different things. Doesn't take a genius to work out that death certificates are being manipulated right now to produce these statistics.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lvxhU68ANB8/XpMtS7OZmAI/AAAAAAAAwC0/U7KNs98OcrozUH36eUNem-Kazc6Unks2wCLcBGAsYHQ/s280/coronavirus%2Bhospital%2B333.jpg
May I have some of what you are on:wacko:You can’t be serious,I find this effing offensive to all those frontline workers
I suppose you will say the Pope ain’t effing Catholic next.:mad:
May I have some of what you are on:wacko:You can’t be serious,I find this effing offensive to all those frontline workers
I suppose you will say the Pope ain’t effing Catholic next.:mad:
Don’t be offended, then he’ll have an excuse to tell all his fellow conspiracy mates that he’s “annoying you for going against the narrative.”
Seriously, shake your head and ignore. People like this are idiots.
Be interesting to see David Icke refusing treatment in the event of him being diagnosed with Covid-19 because you know, it’s a hoax and all that.
Don’t be offended, then he’ll have an excuse to tell all his fellow conspiracy mates that he’s “annoying you for going against the narrative.”
Seriously, shake your head and ignore. People like this are idiots.
Yep you gotta shake your head I wonder if he is a Scientologist wouldn’t surprise me:roflmao:
I used to live near their headquarters in Sydney,man they are really screwed up,and it’s something that they would say
MyNameIsTerry
13-04-20, 16:17
https://fullfact.org/online/5g-and-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-came/
MyNameIsTerry
13-04-20, 16:25
People didn't die before or is everyone only dieing of the "Coronavirus" now? There is is no test for this, even the "experts" admit that. These symptoms can be caused by a million different things. Doesn't take a genius to work out that death certificates are being manipulated right now to produce these statistics.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lvxhU68ANB8/XpMtS7OZmAI/AAAAAAAAwC0/U7KNs98OcrozUH36eUNem-Kazc6Unks2wCLcBGAsYHQ/s280/coronavirus%2Bhospital%2B333.jpg
Why can't it be more that there is an error in overclaiming rather than a conspiracy every coroner in the country is in on? And why are not doctors or nurses whistleblowing? Are they in on it too? For what when the NHS is packed with Labour voters? Why would they cover up for the Tories?
MyNameIsTerry
13-04-20, 16:38
Icke is not saying that 5G is causing the virus, his stance is that it doesn't exist. It's a hoax being perpetrated by the usual suspects. Although, it's highly suspicious why 5G is being rolled out under current circumstances. You would think it would come under the"non essential" category.
I've posted you the Fullfact article explaining about key workers. But I agree, the more we cut down on people travelling and grouping together the more we stop this now and installing masts would seem "routine" work to me.
However, if you are going to say 5G workers are doing this as part of a big rollout to force it in the shadow of this virus can you please explain the following to me...
1) why are Virgin Media installing normal fibre optic cable in my street during the lockdown? They started laying pipes some months ago but stopped. This was more likely because Corbyn had introduced a broadband takeover policy so why should they spend many millions on work he will simply take from them later? Over the week though work has restarted up my street. Not 5G.
2) Why are Ofgem still pushing electricity suppliers to work on the smart rollout programme during a national crisis when they have been sending their staff home? Routine work again but no 5G.
Are you highly suspicious of those too? What about the woman next door to me who has a man creating a new back garden for her? Since gardeners are exempt from lockdown should we be worried they are planting devices in our geraniums to monitor us? Window cleaners are exempt too and what they see is often too x rated to discuss on here...:ohmy::blush:
The Grand National was recently ran as a virtual race. Should we be suspicious the animal rights people are going to change all horse racing under the cover of a hoax virus they have released on the world?
The usual suspects being Israel? Why are we all so keen to be controlled by some mysterious Israeli super government? Were they the reason we all have to call Marathon bars Snickers now?
Conspiracy theory is ways to create as all you do is look for holes and possibilities to craft into your existing bias against xyz or just for the sake of it. But then what of the holes in the conspiracy theories? Should we create one that explains why David Icke is really the overlord and is hiding in plain sight misleading everyone to blame "the usual suspects"? What if David Icke sits at the head of their table?
Or perhaps he is just a plonker? Or more likely a clever man making money out of snake oil?
MyNameIsTerry
13-04-20, 16:42
Yep you gotta shake your head I wonder if he is a Scientologist wouldn’t surprise me:roflmao:
I used to live near their headquarters in Sydney,man they are really screwed up,and it’s something that they would say
One thing that stuck out for me was on the politics threads where he quoted a well known holocaust denier trumpeted by the alt right. The source of that info dated back to the Nazis.
This is for your friend in Rwanda https://yoursmiles.org/msmile/pozitive/m1281.gifhttps://yoursmiles.org/msmile/pozitive/m1257.gifhttps://yoursmiles.org/msmile/pozitive/m1236.gifhttps://yoursmiles.org/msmile/pozitive/m1234.gif
MyNameIsTerry
13-04-20, 16:44
Be interesting to see David Icke refusing treatment in the event of him being diagnosed with Covid-19 because you know, it’s a hoax and all that.
Yes. And Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Callum Best, Lee whatshisface and all the others jumping on the bandwagon due to a mixture of too many bangs on the heads, party drugs, just a need to be the centre of attention, etc.
I bet they will all flock to those doctors & nurses they are degrading with their nonsense.
I am somewhat surprised and saddened that members I thought were intelligent and open-minded should be so glib, dismissive, mocking and judgemental of Hollow's post re the David Icke interview.
Because I might not agree with someone's opinion/s on one subject that doesn't negate and invalidate their opinions on another. This is prejudgement bias and furthermore prejudice.
On 11 February 2020, the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_on_Taxonomy_of_Viruses) (ICTV) announced that according to existing rules that compute hierarchical relationships among coronaviruses on the basis of five conserved sequences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conserved_sequence) of nucleic acids (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleic_acid), the differences between what was then called 2019-nCoV and the virus strain from the 2003 SARS outbreak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus) were insufficient to make them separate viral species (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_species). Therefore, they identified 2019-nCoV as a strain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_(biology)) of Severe acute respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome-related_coronavirus).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus_2#ci te_note-CoronavirusStudyGroup-2)
Do any of you know what the above quote (from Wiki) means? I thought not. You see, hidden in this highly technical jargon is the fact that COVID-19 has NOT been purified, isolated and classified as a "virus" in vivo. Hence COVID-19 is being classified as a "strain" of coronavirus, many of which lurk in all our bodies, and usually cause no problems as long as our bodies and immune systems are healthy.
But let's move on with the story...
Genetic material was taken from the lung fluid of "ill" patients in Wuhan, China, and this RNA was sequenced. At no point was purification (using a centrifuge) apparently attempted. It appears the scientists' main concern was developing a "test" for this RNA sequence material, not isolating and identifying a "virus" (if at this point it ever WAS one). So using a test called the RT-PCR, which is known for its unreliability, and the process of amplification, this RNA material could be detected in other "COVID-19" patients. But this amplification process is extremely important here because without enough amplification cycles you get too many false-negatives and vice versa with too many. Moreover, to complicate matters, each country has its own amplification cycle protocols which would naturally affect results anyway. Icke talks about all this in the "banned" interview.
You all dismiss Icke as a raging madman but he actually uses scientific reasoning, including citing Koch's postulates which I doubt many of you here would have heard about (I hadn't):
Koch's postulates state the process of isolating the relationship between microbe and disease:
Koch's postulates are the following:
The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_culture).
The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.
Icke contends that NONE of these criteria has been satisfied (backed by Andrew Kaufman MD et al). The Gold Standard of looking for this RNA sequence in healthy controls, eg, was NOT carried out. Why?
Next, we come to Icke's contentious 5G claim in his interview with London Live, which was pulled from YouTube, FB and Vimeo for this very reason. The content was not inciting violence, Icke was polite, but made pertinent points in these unprecedented times. Ofcom has banned ALL discussion re 5G and COVID-19. Why? If the relationship between the two is so flimsy, tenuous and laughable, then public scrutiny will soon discard the interview and the 5G-COVID-19 connection as trash. But by censoring the debate, Ofcom and its sycophantic cronies have given Icke FAR, FAR more publicity than he would have otherwise got.
The last time I looked, we weren't living in Communist China where censoring is as common as TV adverts. Moreover, as we have been locked in our homes, 5G has been rolled out at frantic speed all around the world. And we shouldn't ask questions - just sit back and allow all this? Not me, I'm afraid.
In relation to COVID-19 and 5G, Icke rightly states that at 60GHz, 5G has the potential to disrupt the O2 molecule. As any High School Science student should know, O2 has a covalent bond and at 60GHz 5G has the potential to cause electron excitation, disrupting the electron cloud and resulting in less available O2 in the air for haemoglobin to bind to. No relationship at all then, eh? Nothing to be concerned about, especially since breathing issues are a major symptom of COVID-19?
Do I believe all this? Perhaps not. But censoring debate at a time when our freedoms have been massively curtailed and we are in effect under house arrest is an injustice we ALL need to be aware of and fight against. All this has changed our lives forever. Millions have lost businesses and jobs. Thousands of elderly people are having major operations cancelled. Cancer, heart, renal patients are having treatment delayed. Care homes are on verge of collapse as staff are told not to treat patients without PPE when there is a national shortage... And I could go on.
I hope some of you will actually WATCH the Icke interview and return with more informed and unbiased views.
So you’ve decided that we haven’t watched his interview then? Yes, I did. I also watched the deluded ramblings of Andrew Kauffman “MD”, for a good 40 minutes before I got utterly bored.
What Icke is doing is known as “baffling with bullshit”, he’s made a career of it.
To insinuate that this virus is a hoax is utterly laughable. Nothing he says proves it a hoax, at best it shows a lack of solid info about how it was sequenced, but a hoax?
Again, if this virus doesn’t exist, as Icke says, then the whole world must be absolutely packed to the gunnels with illiterate scientists, virologists, epidemiologists, doctors etc. Either that or they’re “in on it.”
I dismiss Icke because he IS a ranting lunatic, he has made a lot of money from it and I have spent a long time looking into his claims over the years. The man is a charlatan, pure and simple. If you don’t agree that’s fine, but please don’t assume that just because people dismiss this idiot that we don’t know a lot about him.
Although I do agree that his interviews shouldn’t be censored, as that probably gives him more attention and notoriety than he deserves.
KK… Thanks most sincerely for some much needed perspective here – a commodity so much in short supply during these strange times…. Damn it! I’ve just broken my self-imposed isolation from posting to the NMP forum and left myself exposed to all sorts of lurgy.
Sorry KK I watched it and still believe it is crap,my ignorant opinion the interview should be censored.
Sorry KK I watched it and still believe it is crap,my ignorant opinion the interview should be censored.
Censorship of conspiracy nuts is about the worst thing you can do. They feed off it and, just like Icke and his ants have done the past few days, they proclaim this as evidence that they’re being suppressed because “they” don’t want you to know “the truth.”
I personally believe his ramblings should be freely available to all and sundry, it’s up to people to educate themselves and make an informed decision on the evidence or lack thereof.
Brilliant post, KK!
No one is suggesting that every nurse, doctor or scientist is in on this. Most are just following orders and doing as they're told. It takes a lot of guts to challenge authority and has real consequences for anyone who does so in the Orwellian world we live in. However, even then some are brave enough to speak out:
20 minutes – Police arrest Corona-skeptical doctor
https://www.archyde.com/20-minutes-police-arrest-corona-skeptical-doctor/
Gregor Ziltener knows the doctor and provides the regional broadcaster with information: He is an upright and very committed person. Lately, however, he has found that the 58-year-old has made confusing statements in connection with the corona virus. Among other things, the 58-year-old made a tweet that the corona virus did not even exist. He describes the well-known virologist Christian Drosten from Germany as a clown.
https://www.idlehearts.com/images/when-the-whole-world-is-running-towards-a-cliff-he-who-is.jpg
ankietyjoe
14-04-20, 17:39
It takes a lot of guts to challenge authority
Or.
It takes a lack of common sense, information and a grasp of the facts.
Just because you happen to disagree with the blindingly obvious, doesn't make you a 'woke' maverick.
Well put KK and thanks for bringing some common sense to this thread.
It's too easy to dismiss and vilify anyone and everyone who ideas are not necessarily mainstream or make for comfortable reading- but this forum like the media should try to promote an area for open debate and discussion where those posting can do so without being slapped down as nutters, idiots, this-ist and that=ist by others. Some of the calling-out on this forum is getting vicious.
Brilliant post, KK!
No one is suggesting that every nurse, doctor or scientist is in on this. Most are just following orders and doing as they're told.
And you know that how? You don’t think that doctors know a new virus when they see one? How about the virologists that examine this under a microscope? Are they all following orders as well then? What about the epidemiologists who track this? Yes, they would all need to be lying, basically.
You can’t just excuse that gaping hole by throwing an empty statement out there like “oh, they’re just following orders.” You don’t know that, you can’t know that, so how can you say that?
Going against the grain is fine, but you’re providing zero evidence. Anecdotal statements from, God knows who, and memes are not evidence.
ankietyjoe
14-04-20, 19:29
but this forum like the media should try to promote an area for open debate and discussion where those posting can do so without being slapped down as nutters, idiots, this-ist and that=ist by others.
In this case I disagree.
Making claims that the coronavirus is somehow not real is at best anxiety provoking for some, and at worst dangerous for others.
This is not an alternative viewpoint, it's stupid, plain and simple.
There are going to be hundreds of thousands of people dead, maybe more. We all need to take this seriously, and not decide that it's the illuminati sticking it to the working (wo)man for God knows what reason.
It's no different than claiming the Earth is flat. It's not an alternative opinion, it's moronic.
It's too easy to dismiss and vilify anyone and everyone who ideas are not necessarily mainstream or make for comfortable reading- but this forum like the media should try to promote an area for open debate and discussion where those posting can do so without being slapped down as nutters, idiots, this-ist and that=ist by others.
David Icke is not trying to “inform” or merely making an error, he is doing what he has done for his entire career, and that is to latch on to a popular idea, make a conspiracy of it and inflate his bank balance in the process.
I’m utterly amazed that people want an “open debate” about the existence of a virus that is literally killing thousands of people every day. It’s affected all of our lives, some of us know people who have died or are very seriously ill due to this.
To insinuate that all of these professionals who are literally risking their lives to save others are doing so on the strength of a hoax is utterly contemptible. To insinuate that people of science, like virologists and epidemiologists, are all basically lying in order to follow some evil narrative is just bizarre.
This isn’t a case of a harmless man putting forth an opinion, this is a very calculated individual who specialises in the art of pseudoscience and manipulation. For the most part he’s entitled to tell us the moon is a base for alien controllers or the royal family are lizard people, if people want to buy into that drivel they’re welcome to, but he is now making a mockery of a very real virus that is robbing families of loved ones.
If you think that deserves respect then that’s up to you. Me? I think he’s a vicious charlatan and “idiot” is one of the nicest words I could use to describe this odious little creep.
MyNameIsTerry
14-04-20, 20:14
Some people will agree it's a hoax and ignore social distancing. Doesn't that make it irresponsible to promote? What of the idiots burning 5G towers?
If you want to air your views you will get responses. There are consequences to the things you say. Not too long ago, a point Lola has made across a few threads now I think, was the racist abuse Chinese (and likely non Chinese who originate from oriental societies at some point in their heritage) people experienced recently. It's peddled under the banner of free speech I'm sure.
Are "the usual suspects" Jewish by any chance? So aside from those who will provide their criticism in a valid & respectful manner how many will be antisemitic? Do we wash our hands of stoking that up?
You swerved my questions, Hollow. Do you believe the guys fitting fibre optic broadband in my street are very conveniently timed too? Your belief 5G engineers were key workers in error was suggesting this hence I assume you believe the same of mine.
MyNameIsTerry
14-04-20, 21:25
Brilliant post, KK!
No one is suggesting that every nurse, doctor or scientist is in on this. Most are just following orders and doing as they're told. It takes a lot of guts to challenge authority and has real consequences for anyone who does so in the Orwellian world we live in. However, even then some are brave enough to speak out:
20 minutes – Police arrest Corona-skeptical doctor
https://www.archyde.com/20-minutes-police-arrest-corona-skeptical-doctor/
Gregor Ziltener knows the doctor and provides the regional broadcaster with information: He is an upright and very committed person. Lately, however, he has found that the 58-year-old has made confusing statements in connection with the corona virus. Among other things, the 58-year-old made a tweet that the corona virus did not even exist. He describes the well-known virologist Christian Drosten from Germany as a clown.
https://www.idlehearts.com/images/when-the-whole-world-is-running-towards-a-cliff-he-who-is.jpg
Yet none of those highly trained and experienced doctors, nurses and scientists can see through a hoax that laymen can? Yet we trust them to treat our incredibly complex conditions after all their years of expensive training? Doesn't that sound odd?
Doesn't bode well for advice to the HAers about trusting their doctors...
Also I'm not sure what you think your link is telling us. Are you saying they are creating a false story that the doctor made threats in order to silence him? Therefore his family have also be threatened into going along with this since the threats are said to be about them?
Could it be a case of a conspiracy or one man very sadly experiencing a serious breakdown?
MyNameIsTerry
14-04-20, 21:37
Well put KK and thanks for bringing some common sense to this thread.
It's too easy to dismiss and vilify anyone and everyone who ideas are not necessarily mainstream or make for comfortable reading- but this forum like the media should try to promote an area for open debate and discussion where those posting can do so without being slapped down as nutters, idiots, this-ist and that=ist by others. Some of the calling-out on this forum is getting vicious.
I can only say it's perhaps because some of us have had similar discussions before. People are entitled to hold any views they want but some may be offensive to some and seeing those on here can be a problem. Luckily Misc is a place so few venture into but since it's become another HA board some may find subjects discussed in a more direct manner or that in the past they avoided e.g. politics, religion, criminal cases, etc.
David Icke is not trying to “inform” or merely making an error, he is doing what he has done for his entire career, and that is to latch on to a popular idea, make a conspiracy of it and inflate his bank balance in the process.
I’m utterly amazed that people want an “open debate” about the existence of a virus that is literally killing thousands of people every day. It’s affected all of our lives, some of us know people who have died or are very seriously ill due to this.
To insinuate that all of these professionals who are literally risking their lives to save others are doing so on the strength of a hoax is utterly contemptible. To insinuate that people of science, like virologists and epidemiologists, are all basically lying in order to follow some evil narrative is just bizarre.
This isn’t a case of a harmless man putting forth an opinion, this is a very calculated individual who specialises in the art of pseudoscience and manipulation. For the most part he’s entitled to tell us the moon is a base for alien controllers or the royal family are lizard people, if people want to buy into that drivel they’re welcome to, but he is now making a mockery of a very real virus that is robbing families of loved ones.
If you think that deserves respect then that’s up to you. Me? I think he’s a vicious charlatan and “idiot” is one of the nicest words I could use to describe this odious little creep.
I was not referring here to Icke.s interview, conspiracy theories or any of the more outrageous stuff that he expounds so please refrain from jumping off the handle and inferring that I am an Icke cheerleader. What I was actually referring to is the way in which some of the responses on these boards are tending towards a measure of pontification and political finger wagging, not to mention intellectual ridicule. All getting rather out of hand lately, and surely we are all adult enough to not have to resort to such measures to get our opinions across.
I was not referring here to Icke.s interview, conspiracy theories or any of the more outrageous stuff that he expounds so please refrain from jumping off the handle and inferring that I am an Icke cheerleader. What I was actually referring to is the way in which some of the responses on these boards are tending towards a measure of pontification and political finger wagging, not to mention intellectual ridicule. All getting rather out of hand lately, and surely we are all adult enough to not have to resort to such measures to get our opinions across.
You specifically mentioned “this thread” and gave specific examples of things said in this thread, so forgive me if I thought you were talking about things said in, you know, this thread.
MyNameIsTerry
15-04-20, 04:57
It's not going to make for a good read for any of medical staff on this forum coming home after risking their lives for us. Or their loved ones worrying about them.
It's bound to evoke some more animated responses under the current conditions. We just need to stick to the respect rules on here, as ever. But should anyone of the above overstep that mark when reading they are part of a big hoax we will have to be forgiving of their temporary feelings.
And since it's Misc some of us might be more aware of each other's views on various other subjects found in the politics threads. Maybe some challenging occurs due to these other views?
MyNameIsTerry
15-04-20, 05:15
More attacks:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52281315
Panicattacka
15-04-20, 06:45
I don't think it's a hoax, I think it's a Chinese bioweapon that was either released accidentally or on purpose. They have to be made to pay for this by the rest of the world.:mad:
ankietyjoe
15-04-20, 11:40
I think it's a Chinese bioweapon that was either released accidentally or on purpose.
To what end? What is the purpose or goal of a bioweapon that allows 97% of the victims to live?
And please answer this, I'm literally gagging to see the logic here.
Some people will agree it's a hoax and ignore social distancing. Doesn't that make it irresponsible to promote? What of the idiots burning 5G towers?
If you want to air your views you will get responses. There are consequences to the things you say. Not too long ago, a point Lola has made across a few threads now I think, was the racist abuse Chinese (and likely non Chinese who originate from oriental societies at some point in their heritage) people experienced recently. It's peddled under the banner of free speech I'm sure.
Are "the usual suspects" Jewish by any chance? So aside from those who will provide their criticism in a valid & respectful manner how many will be antisemitic? Do we wash our hands of stoking that up?
You swerved my questions, Hollow. Do you believe the guys fitting fibre optic broadband in my street are very conveniently timed too? Your belief 5G engineers were key workers in error was suggesting this hence I assume you believe the same of mine.
For several years now I have become gravely concerned about the way many people (including the press) often seem to use the terms 'free speech', 'free expression', 'civil liberty', etc as lazy 'get-out clauses' to justify (and cover up) their unethical attitudes and think they can say and do whatever they please without consequences, such as thinking they have a God-given right to be abusive, offensive and whatever '...ist' one could poke a stick at!
And for those who are probably defending the likes of David Icke, etc simply in the name of 'free expression', etc, the criminal damage to 5G masts probably may not have happened if he hadn't have opened his potty mouth, even though most of those who caused the damage no doubt already revelled in vandalism and hooliganism anyway, and this CT stuff about Coronavirus and 5G masts is all just the latest in a long line of 'catalysts' to justify the actions of the 'low-lifes' of our society. Remember not so long ago quite a few 'low-lifes' were going around attacking mosques and also business premises and residences of people of Asian ethnicity due to the hysterical moral panics bandied about by the press and on social media about Muslims and their being labelled as potential terrorists, when it was (and still is) only specific factions of said faith/ethnicity who are like that. And almost all teenagers (of all ethnicities) being labelled potential 'murderers', especially if wearing hoodies, tracksuits and/or caps, and their often being on the receiving end of attacks themselves, despite being completely innocent in most cases!
Going back to free expression, it ultimately carries responsibilities.
I don't think it's a hoax, I think it's a Chinese bioweapon that was either released accidentally or on purpose. They have to be made to pay for this by the rest of the world.:mad:
Still hasn't been proven though.
If that really was/is the case, would the Chinese really have been willing to risk their own lives and livelihoods first just for the sake of some fabled New World Order?
For several years now I have become gravely concerned about the way many people (including the press) often seem to use the terms 'free speech', 'free expression', 'civil liberty', etc as lazy 'get-out clauses' to justify (and cover up) their unethical attitudes and think they can say and do whatever they please without consequences, such as thinking they have a God-given right to be abusive, offensive and whatever '...ist' one could poke a stick at!
And for those who are probably defending the likes of David Icke, etc simply in the name of 'free expression', etc, the criminal damage to 5G masts probably may not have happened if he hadn't have opened his potty mouth, even though most of those who caused the damage no doubt already revelled in vandalism and hooliganism anyway, and this CT stuff about Coronavirus and 5G masts is all just the latest in a long line of 'catalysts' to justify the actions of the 'low-lifes' of our society. Remember not so long ago quite a few 'low-lifes' were going around attacking mosques and also business premises and residences of people of Asian ethnicity due to the hysterical moral panics bandied about by the press and on social media about Muslims and their being labelled as potential terrorists, when it was (and still is) only specific factions of said faith/ethnicity who are like that. And almost all teenagers (of all ethnicities) being labelled potential 'murderers', especially if wearing hoodies, tracksuits and/or caps, and their often being on the receiving end of attacks themselves, despite being completely innocent in most cases!
Going back to free expression, it ultimately carries responsibilities.
And this time next year, the media and society as a whole will no doubt moved onto the next big 'folk devil', real or imaginary.
Refreshing to see some truly logical and sceptical people on this thread, bravo.
Conspiracy theories by in large are harmless enough. Hearing some guy ranting about flat earths and lizard people probably won’t do much harm, but there does occasionally come a time when the line is crossed.
For a good few years I was a member of a website that was solely dedicated to debunking certain conspiracy theories. The site was created specifically to deal with end of the world and so called “new world order” drivel.
In 2008 a young woman killed herself due to conspiracy junk regarding the large hadron collider. I witnessed countless examples of traumatised kids who had been told by “adults”, with great glee, that the world would end, or that there was going to be a 3rd world war soon or that the US government was going to exterminate the population.
Every close approach by a comet or asteroid was leapt on by these people and used to torment folk. I still to this day have no idea what they had to gain from this, other than momentarily feeling important. I have no qualms in admitting it, but in that time I developed an absolute hatred of people who peddle such nonsense in order to feel special.
The poster above, hollow, has engaged in this bunk for as long as I can remember. I was not at all surprised to see this person once again making a conspiracy out of this, as it’s just what these people do. They cannot help themselves, it’s like it’s an illness in itself. Free speech is one thing and I absolutely do support it, but it’s quite another to just take uneducated leaps on to anything that tickles your fancy just so you can proclaim yourself “woke” or whatever.
Refreshing to see some truly logical and sceptical people on this thread, bravo.
Conspiracy theories by in large are harmless enough. Hearing some guy ranting about flat earths and lizard people probably won’t do much harm, but there does occasionally come a time when the line is crossed.
For a good few years I was a member of a website that was solely dedicated to debunking certain conspiracy theories. The site was created specifically to deal with end of the world and so called “new world order” drivel.
In 2008 a young woman killed herself due to conspiracy junk regarding the large hadron collider. I witnessed countless examples of traumatised kids who had been told by “adults”, with great glee, that the world would end, or that there was going to be a 3rd world war soon or that the US government was going to exterminate the population.
Every close approach by a comet or asteroid was leapt on by these people and used to torment folk. I still to this day have no idea what they had to gain from this, other than momentarily feeling important. I have no qualms in admitting it, but in that time I developed an absolute hatred of people who peddle such nonsense in order to feel special.
The poster above, hollow, has engaged in this bunk for as long as I can remember. I was not at all surprised to see this person once again making a conspiracy out of this, as it’s just what these people do. They cannot help themselves, it’s like it’s an illness in itself. Free speech is one thing and I absolutely do support it, but it’s quite another to just take uneducated leaps on to anything that tickles your fancy just so you can proclaim yourself “woke” or whatever.
I really cannot understand why certain people and publications seem to revel in CTs and apocalyptic doomsday scenarios in general. There does seem to be a growing proportion of egotistical, attention-seeking 'know-it-alls' world-wide, in pursuit of their so-called 'fifteen minutes of fame', who like to think they know better than the real experts, and this phenomenon has become even more apparent over the past fifteen years or so, hand-in-hand with the development and growth of social media in particular.
Although I don't personally remember any of the stuff about the large hadron collider back in 2008, I do remember all the non-stop media hype about the Credit Crunch, and the way many people were constantly doing down the UK over it and playing the 'blame game' over it as if it was all of our own making, and in denial over it being a global phenomenon, especially those who were/are more right-leaning. I bet it will only be a matter of time before the likes of the Scum, Daily Fail, etc, start trying to concoct some kind of fictitious scandal about Labour's new leader Keir Starmer, and the gullible end up falling for it big time. No doubt the same will happen to whoever ends up being appointed the new leader of the Lib Dems too.
I do believe in free expression within reason, but like you said, there are many occasions where lines tend to get crossed, and anything goes.
Pamplemousse
15-04-20, 16:31
I do believe in free expression within reason, but like you said, there are many occasions where lines tend to get crossed, and anything goes.
The classic "shouting 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre".
The whole 5G mobile thing has me tearing my hair out (I work in electronics). The frequencies 5G technology uses have been in use by broadcasters, radio astronomers, weather satellites, safety devices and goodness knows what else for years.
Pamplemousse
15-04-20, 16:33
Although I don't personally remember any of the stuff about the large hadron collider back in 2008
I do... it's reminiscent of the thoughts that occurred at the time of the very first nuclear bomb test back in the 1940s; then some of the scientists in the programme wondered if it would set fire to the planet's atmosphere.
Oh the LHC predictions were hilarious. From the particle collisions creating miniature black holes that would engulf earth to the high energies involved summoning God himself, it was my first real venture into these whacky theories and I genuinely thought it was all just a joke.
If I recall correctly it was an Indian teenager who committed suicide due to these silly reports. That kind of took any humour I might have had about the whole thing and made me realise that this type of batshit crazy theory can actually be dangerous.
MyNameIsTerry
15-04-20, 17:19
The classic "shouting 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre".
The whole 5G mobile thing has me tearing my hair out (I work in electronics). The frequencies 5G technology uses have been in use by broadcasters, radio astronomers, weather satellites, safety devices and goodness knows what else for years.
That's it. Or in the case of some they just hint whether there is a fire, load the gun and watch someone else fire it. They take no responsibility for the actions that others take in fleeing that theatre.
On Gary's point about people taking their lives we have seen one young woman take hers over this virus already. This, and the arson attacks on transmitters and abuse of engineers, overrides someone's need for freedom of speech. There is a time & place so Icke can have his debate a bit later when things have calmed down. There is a risk of public panic amongst people already afraid and we don't need plonkers wanting some extra fame stoking up people's feelings.
We also see threads about the end of the world predictions and asteroids on this forum and that tells us there is a darker side to discussion that needs to be considered.
What’s always seemed odd to me is the argument of being “closed minded” when it comes to things like this. It’s a go to argument from conspiracy theorists, along with the old “sheeple” and “following the narrative” ones.
What’s kind of strange about that is that those of us who are apparently “closed minded” are the ones who go with what the overwhelming evidence suggests, and it’s the conspiracy theorists who stick wholeheartedly to their story regardless of whichever evidence confronts them.
For me, conspiracy theorists are the most closed minded individuals on earth. Going against the grain or dismissing the “narrative”, as they put it, isn’t open minded, it’s just being lazy and stubborn in my view.
I note that hollow has neglected to confront the many questions asked of them thus far. That’s also quite typical. You’d think that if the evidence of their opinion is as obvious as they say, they wouldn’t have such a hard time pointing it out, but they always do.
Pamplemousse
15-04-20, 18:18
What’s always seemed odd to me is the argument of being “closed minded” when it comes to things like this. It’s a go to argument from conspiracy theorists, along with the old “sheeple” and “following the narrative” ones.
What’s kind of strange about that is that those of us who are apparently “closed minded” are the ones who go with what the overwhelming evidence suggests, and it’s the conspiracy theorists who stick wholeheartedly to their story regardless of whichever evidence confronts them.
For me, conspiracy theorists are the most closed minded individuals on earth. Going against the grain or dismissing the “narrative”, as they put it, isn’t open minded, it’s just being lazy and stubborn in my view.
I note that hollow has neglected to confront the many questions asked of them thus far. That’s also quite typical. You’d think that if the evidence of their opinion is as obvious as they say, they wouldn’t have such a hard time pointing it out, but they always do.
If I could 'like' your post, I would!
ankietyjoe
16-04-20, 11:19
I think it's a Chinese bioweapon that was either released accidentally or on purpose.
To what end? What is the purpose or goal of a bioweapon that allows 97% of the victims to live?
And please answer this, I'm literally gagging to see the logic here.
So, no illuminating insights then? :shrug:
To what end? What is the purpose or goal of a bioweapon that allows 97% of the victims to live?
And please answer this, I'm literally gagging to see the logic here.
And of the 3% you quote as dying from the virus, the ONS has today admitted that 9/10 have serious existing health conditions, principally heart disease. So patients are dying with COVID-19, not directly of it. Also note the language used by the media: "x number of people have now died after contracting COVID-19" or "COVID-19 deaths have now reached..."
To compound all this, death certificate guidance has been changed so anyone who has been diagnosed as having the virus or even only having symptoms of the virus can be added to the stats of 'COVID-19 deaths'. This would be unthinkable in ordinary circumstances. Every year millions of elderly and vulnerable people die after contracting the flu virus, which is why the flu jab is foisted upon them, but we don't start altering death certificates to say a cancer or heart patient died of influenza, or lock down the entire country with draconian and ultimately devastating measures - measures which are now expected to be extended for another 3 weeks.
The contradiction between what they say this virus is and the measures that are being taken (including pushing DNRs on vulnerable groups and totally isolating patients in care homes) is glaring and needs to be pointed out.
All this is not conspiracy theory I've pulled out of my arse. It is FACT.
And of the 3% you quote as dying from the virus, the ONS has today admitted that 9/10 have serious existing health conditions, principally heart disease. So patients are dying with COVID-19, not directly of it. Also note the language used by the media: "x number of people have now died after contracting COVID-19" or "COVID-19 deaths have now reached..."
To compound all this, death certificate guidance has been changed so anyone who has been diagnosed as having the virus or even only having symptoms of the virus can be added to the stats of 'COVID-19 deaths'. This would be unthinkable in ordinary circumstances. Every year millions of elderly and vulnerable people die after contracting the flu virus, which is why the flu jab is foisted upon them, but we don't start altering death certificates to say a cancer or heart patient died of influenza, or lock down the entire country with draconian and ultimately devastating measures - measures which are now expected to be extended for another 3 weeks.
The contradiction between what they say this virus is and the measures that are being taken (including pushing DNRs on vulnerable groups and totally isolating patients in care homes) is glaring and needs to be pointed out.
All this is not conspiracy theory I've pulled out of my arse. It is FACT.
I don’t disagree with any of that, I’ve been saying for some time that I believe that when the true numbers are crunched you’re probably looking at something akin to a relatively bad flu season, only of course with a much higher infection rate.
The problem is that this is a new virus and as such, data has to be gathered in real time. Also, it’s fair to say people are dying “with Covid-19” as opposed to “from” it, but where do you draw the line?
My own father, for instance, suffered a major heart attack in 2016 and has 3 stents fitted. For the most part he has recovered and lives a perfectly normal life, but if he was diagnosed with Covid-19 there’s a very high risk of him becoming seriously ill. He receives a flu vaccination every year for the same reason. Trouble is there is, of course, no vaccination for Covid-19.
At this point there’s still too much unknown about the effects of this virus on different people. Granted, when in becomes more clear and more data is gathered, I’d wager that we might feel that these “lockdowns” where an over reaction, but it’s a hell of a risk to take if you don’t have that data.
The frequencies 5G technology uses have been in use by broadcasters, radio astronomers, weather satellites, safety devices and goodness knows what else for years.
What does that have to do with harmful effects of 5G technology and how many weather satellites do you have outside your house?
We're talking about radiation here. Health issues caused by WiFi are well known and that's only operating at 2.4GHz - 5GHz. Millimeter wave frequencies in the range of 60GHz-75GHz have been used in military applications but this is the first they'll be deployed in urban areas on this scale. Since, these frequencies have a very short range, millions of small cells will need to be installed for coverage which means turning every streetlight into a 5G antenna. Trees will need to be cut down as well because they obstruct 5G signals. What effect is that going to have on the environment.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be worried about 5G technology and the government dismissing theses concerns as conspiracy nonsense doesn't help. As far as 5G masts being set on fire, I don't believe people who are too afraid to leave their homes because the government says so are capable of doing that. That's very likely a false flag to demonise those who are opposed to the deployment of 5G.
MyNameIsTerry
16-04-20, 13:33
What does that have to do with harmful effects of 5G technology and how many weather satellites do you have outside your house?
We're talking about radiation here. Health issues caused by WiFi are well known and that's only operating at 2.4GHz - 5GHz. Millimeter wave frequencies in the range of 60GHz-75GHz have been used in military applications but this is the first they'll be deployed in urban areas on this scale. Since, these frequencies have a very short range, millions of small cells will need to be installed for coverage which means turning every streetlight into a 5G antenna. Trees will need to be cut down as well because they obstruct 5G signals. What effect is that going to have on the environment.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be worried about 5G technology and the government dismissing theses concerns as conspiracy nonsense doesn't help. As far as 5G masts being set on fire, I don't believe people who are too afraid to leave their homes because the government says so are capable of doing that. That's very likely a false flag to demonise those who are opposed to the deployment of 5G.
People aren't too afraid to leave their homes, they are doing It in their millions every day.
On another note, just imagine what it would have been like had the Chernobyl tragedy happened today instead of back in 1986?
Pamplemousse
16-04-20, 14:15
We're talking about radiation here.
Yes; non-ionising, electromagnetic radiation; not ionising radiation like X-rays and gamma radiation. Idiots use the catch-all of 'radiation' as a big, scary word to scare the gullible.
I take it you've heard of the inverse square law? How much 'radiation' are you absorbing right now from the clock running the processor in your phone, your laptop, the GPU controlling the screen, whatever? How much 'radiation' from satellite TV at 12GHz is bombarding you from the satellites around the earth, never mind broadcast uplinks and downlinks that work at higher frequencies?
It's funny how conspiracy theorists, far from being the 'enlightened' people they claim to be whilst damning the rest as 'sheeple', are the most closed-minded people I have encountered. We have seen this all before with mobile phones, 3G and 4G. This is no different, it's just fear of the unknown.
ankietyjoe
16-04-20, 14:53
And of the 3% you quote as dying from the virus, the ONS has today admitted that 9/10 have serious existing health conditions, principally heart disease. So patients are dying with COVID-19, not directly of it. Also note the language used by the media: "x number of people have now died after contracting COVID-19" or "COVID-19 deaths have now reached..."
To compound all this, death certificate guidance has been changed so anyone who has been diagnosed as having the virus or even only having symptoms of the virus can be added to the stats of 'COVID-19 deaths'. This would be unthinkable in ordinary circumstances. Every year millions of elderly and vulnerable people die after contracting the flu virus, which is why the flu jab is foisted upon them, but we don't start altering death certificates to say a cancer or heart patient died of influenza, or lock down the entire country with draconian and ultimately devastating measures - measures which are now expected to be extended for another 3 weeks.
The contradiction between what they say this virus is and the measures that are being taken (including pushing DNRs on vulnerable groups and totally isolating patients in care homes) is glaring and needs to be pointed out.
All this is not conspiracy theory I've pulled out of my arse. It is FACT.
I don't disagree with these facts, I just disagree with the level and scope of conspiracy theory on offer in this thread.
The idea that China deliberately created/released/whoops accidentally let go of a bioweapon is beyond absurd.
I also believe that CV is far more dangerous than the flu. As I've mentioned elsewhere I know people who have had it (one of them a trained paramedic who served in Bosnia) and it's beyond anything else they've ever experienced including the flu. My paramedic friend is a supremely fit fifty something who is well into recovery and still unable to walk around the block. This aint' the same as the flu, period. One of my partners friends has also died of it, in her 30s. I repeat, this ain't the same as the flu. It's extraordinarily rare for a woman in her 30s (with no RECORDED pre-existing medical conditions) to die from it, but she did.
It ain't, the flu.
But it also ain't, deliberate.
'Draconian' measures have been put in place in order to not completely overwhelm and obliterate the NHS or any other countries health resources. Even if you ignore the death statistics, the relative proportion of people needing intensive care compared to the flu is enormous. Ten times more has been hinted at.
The reason we have been asked to stay at home is because CV is unusually contagious in the incubation stage. This is also fact.
Yes; non-ionising, electromagnetic radiation; not ionising radiation like X-rays and gamma radiation. Idiots use the catch-all of 'radiation' as a big, scary word to scare the gullible.
I take it you've heard of the inverse square law? How much 'radiation' are you absorbing right now from the clock running the processor in your phone, your laptop, the GPU controlling the screen, whatever? How much 'radiation' from satellite TV at 12GHz is bombarding you from the satellites around the earth, never mind broadcast uplinks and downlinks that work at higher frequencies?
It's funny how conspiracy theorists, far from being the 'enlightened' people they claim to be whilst damning the rest as 'sheeple', are the most closed-minded people I have encountered. We have seen this all before with mobile phones, 3G and 4G. This is no different, it's just fear of the unknown.
Exactly. the devices and technologies we currently use that rely on 'radiation' such as mobile phones, WiFi for Internet, etc we have been using without any major issues for more than 30 years now and had any of them been 100% proven to be detrimental to our health and well-being, they would have no doubt been outlawed well before now, or at very least, restricted.
It really astounds me that many people literally seem to seek out potential hazards that may be lurking in every corner of daily life. One of the worst for me is the infamous British anti-vaxxer Andrew Wakefield who is still passionately convinced that certain vaccines cause autism, which I consider to be total BS of the highest order, and many children born since the late 90s have had to endure more 'historical' viruses once again such as mumps, whooping cough, rickets, etc, once again, due to his poxy, scaremongering 'anti-autist' agenda, which he is still blatantly pushing elsewhere in the world (in the USA I think) to this very day and still thinking he is untouchable!!
Sorry for straying off-topic, but I really felt I had to vent my spleen over the antics of that odious man who to me comes across as a hater of people with ASD!!
I don't disagree with these facts, I just disagree with the level and scope of conspiracy theory on offer in this thread.
The idea that China deliberately created/released/whoops accidentally let go of a bioweapon is beyond absurd.
I also believe that CV is far more dangerous than the flu. As I've mentioned elsewhere I know people who have had it (one of them a trained paramedic who served in Bosnia) and it's beyond anything else they've ever experienced including the flu. My paramedic friend is a supremely fit fifty something who is well into recovery and still unable to walk around the block. This aint' the same as the flu, period. One of my partners friends has also died of it, in her 30s. I repeat, this ain't the same as the flu. It's extraordinarily rare for a woman in her 30s (with no RECORDED pre-existing medical conditions) to die from it, but she did.
It ain't, the flu.
But it also ain't, deliberate.
'Draconian' measures have been put in place in order to not completely overwhelm and obliterate the NHS or any other countries health resources. Even if you ignore the death statistics, the relative proportion of people needing intensive care compared to the flu is enormous. Ten times more has been hinted at.
The reason we have been asked to stay at home is because CV is unusually contagious in the incubation stage. This is also fact.
That doesn't change the stats - ie, a tiny fraction of those who 'contract' the virus without any other (known) health conditions unfortunately die. This is the case for many diseases/conditions that can kill otherwise 'healthy' people. Yet we don't lock down the country because of it. This would be like using a nuclear missile to kill a fly.
Or perhaps we're talking about another disease here and not COVID-19?
That doesn't change the stats - ie, a tiny fraction of those who 'contract' the virus without any other (known) health conditions unfortunately die. This is the case for many diseases/conditions that can kill otherwise 'healthy' people. Yet we don't lock down the country because of it. This would be like using a nuclear missile to kill a fly.
Or perhaps we're talking about another disease here and not COVID-19?
It’s a new virus, simple as that. For those other diseases you mention, we know the treatments, we mostly have vaccination available and for the most part, society has built up a degree of immunity.
When all is said and done with Covid-19, yes, it could well be a case that we took things too far or that we could’ve deployed one of several different tactics to combat it. Problem is, while we’re trying to figure it out, it’s rampaging through global populations and, being a new virus, nobody really knows how it will play out.
5 months in and we have a fair idea that for the most part, elderly and immunodeficient people are most at risk. We still don’t know how widespread it is. If 3% of the global population die, that’s a lot of fu*king people. In the face of the unknown, and not having the slightest clue what works and what doesn’t, locking down and social distancing would seem about the only thing anyone can do.
It’s also a bit short sighted in regards to healthcare systems. 3% unfortunately die, a much higher percentage will require hospitalisation. Even more if you don’t lock down. If the healthcare system, which is generally operating at maximum at the best of times, becomes overwhelmed all of a sudden you’ll be presented with indirect deaths of people who cannot receive treatment for other ailments.
Doctors and nurses are contracting this virus, so doing nothing would mean that a larger amount of people require hospitalisation, more folk requiring constant medical intervention, all at a time when a significant percentage of the workforce is ill themselves.
Sorry, but comparing this to existing and well studied illnesses is just unrealistic.
Doctors and nurses are contracting this virus, so doing nothing would mean that a larger amount of people require hospitalisation, more folk requiring constant medical intervention, all at a time when a significant percentage of the workforce is ill themselves.
Sorry, but comparing this to existing and well studied illnesses is just unrealistic.
Please don't misquote me, Gary. At no point in any of my posts have I suggested we do "nothing".
As members who frequently reply to HA sufferers "catastrophising" over contracting or developing a deadly disease/condition (ie, 'worst case scenarios'), you are doing just that by focusing not on the 'millions' who ostensibly have COVID-19 and are asymptomatic or display mild/moderate symptoms, but the incredibly rare instances of people with no other (known) health issues dying from it.
Again, I repeat. I am NOT saying this is a hoax and that we do NOTHING. I am questioning the response and official narrative of COVID-19.
Please don't misquote me, Gary. At no point in any of my posts have I suggested we do "nothing".
As members who frequently reply to HA sufferers "catastrophising" over contracting or developing a deadly disease/condition (ie, 'worst case scenarios'), you are doing just that by focusing not on the 'millions' who ostensibly have COVID-19 and are asymptomatic or display mild/moderate symptoms, but the incredibly rare instances of people with no other (known) health issues dying from it.
Again, I repeat. I am NOT saying this is a hoax and that we do NOTHING. I am questioning the response and official narrative of COVID-19.
As we all should of course.
If you look at my posts regarding Covid-19 you’ll see that I’m far from catastrophising, in fact, I focus far more on asymptomatic and mild infections as the rule rather than the exception.
However, and not to sound too glib, but the people who are asymptomatic and who have mild illness are not the problem right now. The ones who have an illness requiring hospitalisation are, though, so focussing on them has to be the bigger priority right now.
I would much rather the government looked at the worst case scenario and perhaps overreact rather than under react and create chaos.
As far as I’m concerned the main focus early on should have been on testing, isolating and contact tracing. If that had been implemented then perhaps the other measures could have been avoided or at the very least been less strict.
That ship sailed though, and now, until we discover effective treatments and ultimately vaccination, or until the numbers are deciphered better to more accurately gauge infection levels, the only way to avoid the possibility of chaos and overwhelmed healthcare systems is to implement social distancing and, unfortunately, lockdowns.
If you have a better idea then I’m genuinely all ears.
So I've been taking a screenshot of the numbers each day for the virus in my state. The "Confirmed" cases are escalating. The "Deaths" number is rising as well. But the "Recovered" category hasn't moved an inch in a solid week. It has remained at a little over 4000. What the hell is going on? Personally I think it's manipulation for whatever reason. If the other categories are rising then the recoveries should be rising also. I mean why did it get to 4000+ and then just stop? Any ideas?
N
So I've been taking a screenshot of the numbers each day for the virus in my state. The "Confirmed" cases are escalating. The "Deaths" number is rising as well. But the "Recovered" category hasn't moved an inch in a solid week. It has remained at a little over 4000. What the hell is going on? Personally I think it's manipulation for whatever reason. If the other categories are rising then the recoveries should be rising also. I mean why did it get to 4000+ and then just stop? Any ideas?
N
For someone to be confirmed as recovered they need to test negative twice. This can take quite a bit of time compared to positive diagnoses and deaths, as even when the symptoms clear there can be detectable levels of virus in your system.
Though I do agree that there seems far more effort being put into reporting deaths and new cases rather than recoveries.
So I've been taking a screenshot of the numbers each day for the virus in my state. The "Confirmed" cases are escalating. The "Deaths" number is rising as well. But the "Recovered" category hasn't moved an inch in a solid week. It has remained at a little over 4000. What the hell is going on? Personally I think it's manipulation for whatever reason. If the other categories are rising then the recoveries should be rising also. I mean why did it get to 4000+ and then just stop? Any ideas?
N
Same here in the UK, the 'recovered' cases mysteriously seem to have been ditched from the stats.
Possibly be some kind of ploy to discourage people from defying the lockdown orders? I could be totally wrong though.
For someone to be confirmed as recovered they need to test negative twice. This can take quite a bit of time compared to positive diagnoses and deaths, as even when the symptoms clear there can be detectable levels of virus in your system.
Though I do agree that there seems far more effort being put into reporting deaths and new cases rather than recoveries.
You've already beat me to it, Gary!!
As for conspiracy theories...I put nothing past the Chi-coms. Nothing.
And lets face it conspiracies abound. We have whole departments in government that that's all they do. The FBI/NSA/MI6/CIA their job is in large part to find and eliminate conspiracies or conspire against someone or some government.
President Lincoln assassination, Arch Duke Ferdinand, Vietnam's Diem assassination...conspiracies all. Pearl Harbor. 911. And of course Judas and his 30 pieces of silver. What about Caesar's..."Et tu, Brute?"
The charge of "conspiracy theorist" is used to silence and marginalize.
N.
For someone to be confirmed as recovered they need to test negative twice. This can take quite a bit of time compared to positive diagnoses and deaths, as even when the symptoms clear there can be detectable levels of virus in your system.
Though I do agree that there seems far more effort being put into reporting deaths and new cases rather than recoveries.
LOL...I hear ya...but why were folks recovering steadily along with the other categories and then suddenly stop?
Pamplemousse
16-04-20, 18:03
It really astounds me that many people literally seem to seek out potential hazards that may be lurking in every corner of daily life. One of the worst for me is the infamous British anti-vaxxer Andrew Wakefield who is still passionately convinced that certain vaccines cause autism, which I consider to be total BS of the highest order, and many children born since the late 90s have had to endure more 'historical' viruses once again such as mumps, whooping cough, rickets, etc, once again, due to his poxy, scaremongering 'anti-autist' agenda, which he is still blatantly pushing elsewhere in the world (in the USA I think) to this very day and still thinking he is untouchable!!
Sorry for straying off-topic, but I really felt I had to vent my spleen over the antics of that odious man who to me comes across as a hater of people with ASD!!
No need to apologise. Wakefield sowed a seed that is the equivalent of Japanese Knotweed, aided and abetted by the Daily Mail and its columnists.
By the way, to show that fear of radio waves is nothing new: https://twitter.com/JedrzejTomczak/status/1250372451600646144
Same here in the UK, the 'recovered' cases mysteriously seem to have been ditched from the stats.
Possibly be some kind of ploy to discourage people from defying the lockdown orders? I could be totally wrong though.
That's what I was wondering Lancoboy. If the powers-that-be don't want to give anybody any reason to hit the streets.
So today just to see how he was doing I put the name Boris Johnson as a search and nothing came up about his actual condition all just articles pointing fingers.
by the way at the hospital where my wife works every time a covid patient is released they play the theme from Rocky over the loudspeaker. She said they played it four times yesterday.
Pamplemousse
16-04-20, 19:08
That's what I was wondering Lancoboy. If the powers-that-be don't want to give anybody any reason to hit the streets.
Ministers are actively getting fed up about being asked about an "exit strategy" - Matt Hancock lost it spectacularly with Nick Robinson on this morning's Today programme on BBC Radio 4. The argument is that HMG wants no dilution of the message to "stay at home" and abide by the lockdown.
So today just to see how he was doing I put the name Boris Johnson as a search and nothing came up about his actual condition all just articles pointing fingers.
Welcome to UK politics.
As far as I’m aware he is recovering at a country retreat and will probably be out of action for at least a month or two.
He’s out of the woods now but his body will be in total shock after such an ordeal so he needs a break.
I have to say I’ve been impressed with Dominic Raab, who’s deputising for him at the moment, he seems to be taking it in his stride very well, outwardly anyway.
by the way at the hospital where my wife works every time a covid patient is released they play the theme from Rocky over the loudspeaker. She said they played it four times yesterday.
That must be a glorious moment for patients and staff! I hope your wife is well and not too exhausted? You must be so proud of her!
venusbluejeans
16-04-20, 20:06
temporarily closed pending admin review
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