The 'died of' versus 'died with' debate...

[Panicattacka]

One thing the CV-19 outbreak has thrown into stark relief is how blurred the line is when it comes to distinguishing between those who 'died of COVID-19' and those who died of something else. You can see the "with" vs. "of" debate playing out right now in both the media, between governments, agencies and scientists.

Categorizing the causes of death is more messy than a lot of people like to believe. You hear statistics like how many died of heart disease, how many died of cancer, etc. In practice, it's not always easy to categorize any given death.

For a little perspective from my own experience: My grandad died a few years ago of kidney failure. He had three conditions that lead to this kidney failure, though: hypertension, diabetes, and a cancer called multiple myeloma. Even though his cancer appears to have been the factor that precipitated his needing dialysis, and even though his cancer treatments were ended just days before he went into the hospital for the final time, his death certificate suggests the kidney failure was due to hypertension and doesn't even mention the cancer. At the time, this made me wonder: when it isn't something obvious like a bodily trauma caused by a traffic accident or gunshot wound, etc., do we ever know for sure what exactly someone 'dies of'?

[WiseMonkey]

One thing the CV-19 outbreak has thrown into stark relief is how blurred the line is when it comes to distinguishing between those who 'died of COVID-19' and those who died of something else. You can see the "with" vs. "of" debate playing out right now in both the media, between governments, agencies and scientists.

Categorizing the causes of death is more messy than a lot of people like to believe. You hear statistics like how many died of heart disease, how many died of cancer, etc. In practice, it's not always easy to categorize any given death.

For a little perspective from my own experience: My grandad died a few years ago of kidney failure. He had three conditions that lead to this kidney failure, though: hypertension, diabetes, and a cancer called multiple myeloma. Even though his cancer appears to have been the factor that precipitated his needing dialysis, and even though his cancer treatments were ended just days before he went into the hospital for the final time, his death certificate suggests the kidney failure was due to hypertension and doesn't even mention the cancer. At the time, this made me wonder: when it isn't something obvious like a bodily trauma caused by a traffic accident or gunshot wound, etc., do we ever know for sure what exactly someone 'dies of'?

Yes and I guess the coroner or Dr have a guideline of criteria which they have to tick.

Even those who meet their demise from accidents, killings, suicides actually die from blood or oxygen loss due to the body going into shock. Ultimately even those who have many complex illnesses die because they lack oxygen.

My father had a fall, broke his hip, got a replacement, got an infection in hospital and then developed pneumonia. The day before he died the Dr told us that the infection has cleared up but because of his age (87) the lung damage caused by the pneumonia was so far advanced that there was no chance of recovery. He was sedated when he died, we were with him and he just stopped breathing (then his heart stopped I guess). He'd had a triple bypass 20 years before but that's not what he died of, his heart was good.

My mother died of natural causes (aged 91), her organs just began to close down, she was in a coma then she stopped breathing. On the death certificate it states some type of brain failure. She did have a low level dementia but that's not what she died of. Apart from this she had no underlying illnesses.

In regards to the covid19 it causes a viral pneumonia in vulnerable people, so a lack of oxygen would ultimately be the cause of death. I've read that people with covid in ICU (in critical care) are sedated which offers some comfort to them and their loved ones.

[Pamplemousse]

"Died of" and "Died from" (to me) are the same thing grammatically. It implies a single cause of death.

"Died with" however implies that there is another issue at play.

Ah - just seen the thread title change as I wrote this!

[Panicattacka]

"Died of" and "Died from" (to me) are the same thing grammatically. It implies a single cause of death.

"Died with" however implies that there is another issue at play.

Ah - just seen the thread title change as I wrote this!

Yes, mea culpa, I screwed up the original thread title. I meant to write "died of vs died with". D'oh!

[Pamplemousse]

Yes, mea culpa, I screwed up the original thread title. I meant to write "died of vs died with". D'oh!

Thought so - no worries!

@mods - can you change the thread title please?

[Hollow]

https://www.winterwatch.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Coronavirus-cronyvirus-covid-19-fake-claims-on-death-toll.jpg

[ankietyjoe]

Funny, I was thinking about this only yesterday.

My Mother used to have a neighbour in his early 80s who was supremely fit and active. He was cognitively sharp, always well dressed and never really ill.

One week he was taken ill however, and diagnosed with shingles. He was dead a few days later, simply because at that age it could be anything.

I do wonder how many deaths attributed to CV could easily have been anything else that the poor victims contracted also. It's just a sad fact of life that once you get to a certain age, life can become very fragile. It's a truth for all of us.

[Groundhog]

I think you will find that on the death certificate the doctor puts the direct cause of death and then goes through the sequence of conditions and events that led to that death until the bottom line is reached or base of the sequence of events, this base is then sited as the cause of death. This is why when deaths are quoted for Covid 19 the terminology used is....’ NHS England has announced x new deaths of people who tested positive for Covid 19 ....’