Increase in anxiety/panic, when I try to relax!

[LittleLionMan]

Hi all,

I hope you're doing OK!

My anxiety levels have gone through the roof lately, but the one thing that's getting to me is that my panic and anxiety actually increases when I try to relax.
I don't know if it's the idea of 'letting go' that scares me, or if relaxing is 'letting my guard down', but even the thought of lying or sitting down relaxing makes me feel anxious, to a point where I have to keep finding things to do, which becomes a real problem when it's time to lay in bed and get some sleep, and causes a flurry of symptoms and a racing mind the second I try to get some shut eye.

Is this a common thing, or is it just me!?

Thanks?

Phil

[ankietyjoe]

It's something that I have experienced in the past, yes.

Living with anxiety often coincides with running with increased adrenaline. As long as you are busy and occupied, the adrenaline is being 'burned off'. As soon as you stop...not so much.

This is where acceptance comes in, which is a common technique across virtually all successful anxiety treatments. The idea here is to encourage your central nervous system to come down without feeding it more conscious ideas that something is 'wrong'. If you lay down and experience symptoms, YOU will start to react to them, which in turn feeds your subconscious mind the idea that something is wrong. It's not really, it's just sensation.

Next time you lay down, sit down, try and sleep or even simply relax, practice the idea of accepting that symptoms are here for now. That doesn't mean that it will be this way forever, just for now. They're only symptoms right? You have all the experience to prove to yourself that nothing worse than sensation occurs. The more you can divorce yourself from the fear of the sensations, the less they will happen in the first place. Takes time, but it does work.

[LittleLionMan]

I actually found a trick to go to sleep that's worked quite well the last few nights, so hopefully that continues.

Still struggling badly though. Mostly with the not feeling 'with it', and not necessarily dissociation, but thoughts about really, where I actually have to remind myself where I am. It's impossible to convince yourself you aren't going mad. It happened today sat found the dinner table, and I was actually very calm when it happened. My mind wandered and the anxiety followed. So confused with all this at the minute.

[MRS STRESS ED]

Hi all,

I hope you're doing OK!

My anxiety levels have gone through the roof lately, but the one thing that's getting to me is that my panic and anxiety actually increases when I try to relax.
I don't know if it's the idea of 'letting go' that scares me, or if relaxing is 'letting my guard down', but even the thought of lying or sitting down relaxing makes me feel anxious, to a point where I have to keep finding things to do, which becomes a real problem when it's time to lay in bed and get some sleep, and causes a flurry of symptoms and a racing mind the second I try to get some shut eye.

Is this a common thing, or is it just me!?

Thanks?

Phil

Hi Phil
l'm the same when l try to relax awful anxiety kicks in my anxiety is shocking at the moment, l hope we both find away of relaxing l am listening to some mindful music at the moment it helps me sometimes, trouble is my mind works overtime heres hoping we get some peace xx

best wishes

[LittleLionMan]

Hi Phil
l'm the same when l try to relax awful anxiety kicks in my anxiety is shocking at the moment, l hope we both find away of relaxing l am listening to some mindful music at the moment it helps me sometimes, trouble is my mind works overtime heres hoping we get some peace xx

best wishes

Sorry to hear you are struggling so badly.

Mine is at an all time high too, constantly either panicking or on the verge of panic, like, all day!
I honestly don't know what to do. I hired a new psychologist a few weeks ago who doesn't care about the symptoms, and tells me to just ignore them and tolerate them whilst I keep exposing myself to my anxiety... easy for her to say!

I honestly don't know what the answer is, my mind is like a swamp.
I've just given up trying to relax, and on the flip side have found moments where I can, but they are very fleeting.

Always here if you need to chat.

Phil

[ankietyjoe]

Next time you lay down, sit down, try and sleep or even simply relax, practice the idea of accepting that symptoms are here for now. That doesn't mean that it will be this way forever, just for now. They're only symptoms right? You have all the experience to prove to yourself that nothing worse than sensation occurs. The more you can divorce yourself from the fear of the sensations, the less they will happen in the first place. Takes time, but it does work.



I hired a new psychologist a few weeks ago who doesn't care about the symptoms, and tells me to just ignore them and tolerate them whilst I keep exposing myself to my anxiety... easy for her to say!

I honestly don't know what the answer is, my mind is like a swamp.
I've just given up trying to relax, and on the flip side have found moments where I can, but they are very fleeting.



Well, you DO know what the answer is. You've been given basically the same advice by somebody that has recovered from anxiety, and a trained professional.

Nobody is telling you it's easy, so don't dismiss the advice because it's hard. It is (in my opinion) the only true way to recover from anxiety. It takes months and months, but if you even have fleeting moments of relaxation it means that recovery is happening.

[LittleLionMan]

Well, you DO know what the answer is. You've been given basically the same advice by somebody that has recovered from anxiety, and a trained professional.

Nobody is telling you it's easy, so don't dismiss the advice because it's hard. It is (in my opinion) the only true way to recover from anxiety. It takes months and months, but if you even have fleeting moments of relaxation it means that recovery is happening.

Hello mate, I hope you're well!

Yeah, I know what she's intending, and I'm sticking to it. Working my balls off to be fair, running every day, forcing myself into my extremely complicated work, trying to force myself out of my comfort zone at every opportunity, and just letting all the panic and weird thoughts come and go (which I am really struggling to do, my mind is constantly figuring out what's happening) ... the symptoms just aren't easing, and are in fact getting a lot worse. It's just a stream of constant anxiety, and then when I do try and watch tele for an hour, I can't calm down enough to do it. Almost waiting for myself to just break even more, honestly feel like I'm losing my mind.

I'm sticking with the 'no pain no gain' mentality, but it's honestly harder than I could ever of imagined.
Just want to see a bit of reward for my efforts I suppose.

Cheers,

Phil

[ankietyjoe]

Ok, I would also suggest NOT pushing yourself every day. This could be significant.

Running can be very stressful on your CNS, it's just that the no pain no gain mantra isn't entirely accurate for somebody that is already stressed.

Don't run every day, don't force yourself to do things you're not comfortable with. There is no downside to living with and accepting the anxiety, but it's not going to work if you keep topping up the stress.

Try walking instead of running for a while. Try staying within your comfort zone a couple of days a week just to give the whole system some down time too.

[LittleLionMan]

Strangely, the running is actually the only thing that ever gives me a slight break from the anxiety. I was really sporty before the anxiety came all them years ago, so think physically pushing myself helps counter the anxiety helplessness. I run about 3.5km to 4km in the treadmill every day, and I sometimes feel slightly better for an hour afterwards. It's incredibly hard whilst I do it obviously, but is worth the pain sometimes.

The anxiety has settled in my throat today, so I'm trying to carry on whilst the thoughts about my throat bombard me, and am just finishing this job before I go for my run. I think it's because I've had trouble eating for the last few days, and had to force food down me a bit. My mouth and tongue were all sore this morning too.

Her only attitude towards the thoughts is just 'allow them', and her attitude towards the constant panic is that 'it won't hurt you'. So that's where I am.

I do feel sometimes that I'm just keeping busy to avoid sitting quietly, so that frightens me, and obviously makes bedtime a nightmare!


Ok, I would also suggest NOT pushing yourself every day. This could be significant.

Running can be very stressful on your CNS, it's just that the no pain no gain mantra isn't entirely accurate for somebody that is already stressed.

Don't run every day, don't force yourself to do things you're not comfortable with. There is no downside to living with and accepting the anxiety, but it's not going to work if you keep topping up the stress.

Try walking instead of running for a while. Try staying within your comfort zone a couple of days a week just to give the whole system some down time too.

[ankietyjoe]

The reason exercise feels good is that it will give you a short term high from serotonin. That's good, and not a bad thing. The downside for some people is that (especially running) it can cause CNS fatigue over the long term. Running 2-3 miles just isn't natural, and implies danger to the CNS. You're also breaking down tissue and forcing your body into a state of repair. Again, under normal circumstances stress can actually make you stronger. Your current circumstances aren't normal though, right?

Perhaps try doing some HIIT training instead? Sprint for 15 seconds, rest for 15 seconds, sprint for 15, rest for 15 etc. Even though the intensity is higher, the duration is lower. You would only do this for 5-10 repetitions before you'd feel exhausted, but it's much lower impact in terms of stress.

Recovering from anxiety is as much about stress removal as it is learning to cope with and accept the anxiety.

Make sure you eat right, make sure you get enough rest (even if it can't all be sleep). It all matters.

There have been countless posts about people using intense exercise for anxiety relief because it makes them feel better in the short term, but they're still there 2-3 years later with the same anxiety symptoms. It has to be about balance.

[LittleLionMan]

My psychologist wants me running first thing in the morning, to kick start my day, and almost say 'bring it on', rather than begin the pattern of avoidance. There is also the benefits from running, but I do get the idea of intensity. I do a programme called couch to 5k, which is running and walking in intervals. Whole session lasts 30 minutes now, with 20 minutes of that being running.

Regular and healthy eating is something I really struggle with, due to my appetite with anxiety, and sleep is obviously a problem because my mind spirals at night, and I'm never relaxed. I can't just sit and watch TV for half an hour, let alone lie down comfy in bed! - This is my biggest problem right now, being able to just 'be', and OK with it.
I tried to chill out before, got panicky, and ended up drawing up a whole set of house plans for my mate, just to occupy my mind, and pass the time without panicking... this is how bad it's got.

I definitely haven't reduced stress anyway, but I don't know if this is preferable to lying on the sofa, or in bed passing the day like I used to be able to do... it's like I can't win.

[ankietyjoe]

If you feel the exercise you're doing is benefiting more than hindering then obviously keep doing it, just be mindful of your net stress/rest balance.

It keeps coming back to the idea that you can't sit down and rest, or can't lay down and sleep.

You say you tried to chill and got panicky, but this is what you need to try and sit WITH rather than run from. Trust me, I've been there. It's just something you have to get used to. The thing to try and understand here is that panicking isn't actually the issue, it's your fear of panicking. That's what keeps the adrenaline spikes happening, not the trigger of panic itself.

[LittleLionMan]

I've just had my session with my psychologist, she thinks that because I'm a perfectionist, where she's suggested that my anxiety is no worse when I do things, compared to not doing things (so I'm safe to increase my activity), that I've decided that I have to be doing things all the time, and have began to fear having that down time, turning it in to a big deal, and making me dread it.

She's effectively told me that I'm simply trying to hard to recover perfectly, instead of just playing around with the idea that I can increase what I do, that I can get my mind into other things, and that I can tolerate the anxiety that comes up when I do.

Anxiety is just one big paradox isn't it!
(Ironically, I was OK when she was here, we went for a drive to the shop and everything, I even went in and bought some cigarettes, then panicked instantly the second she left and I was on my own!)

[ankietyjoe]

I've just had my session with my psychologist, she thinks that because I'm a perfectionist, where she's suggested that my anxiety is no worse when I do things, compared to not doing things (so I'm safe to increase my activity), that I've decided that I have to be doing things all the time, and have began to fear having that down time, turning it in to a big deal, and making me dread it.



The thing to try and understand here is that panicking isn't actually the issue, it's your fear of panicking. That's what keeps the adrenaline spikes happening, not the trigger of panic itself.

That's what this is.


She's effectively told me that I'm simply trying to hard to recover perfectly, instead of just playing around with the idea that I can increase what I do, that I can get my mind into other things, and that I can tolerate the anxiety that comes up when I do.

Anxiety is just one big paradox isn't it!
(Ironically, I was OK when she was here, we went for a drive to the shop and everything, I even went in and bought some cigarettes, then panicked instantly the second she left and I was on my own!)

In some respects you have a fear of not coping. I think that's why you were ok when she was there 'hand holding', and I use that phrase with zero disrespect. Anxiety can turn all of us into an almost needy, child like state.

Cigarettes.....

You'll either trust me or not on this one, but anxiety simply isn't just a psychological issue. Too much work, poor diet, drinking too much, smoking, not enough sleep, not enough vitamin D....the list in endless. All these things have a significant impact on overall anxiety. You cannot have a healthy mind with an unhealthy body, it just doesn't work.

[LittleLionMan]

That's it. My psychologist and I have actually done things to push my anxiety, and almost tried to have a panic attack, and they don't happen. I drove to, and went into, the shop this morning, and I wouldn't dare do that on my own.
It's a constant fear of panicking, yet I'm not scared to panic when I'm with her, and would actually welcome it to show her how bad my attacks are, as any instruction of panic and move on is just ridiculous to me. They don't just change my hour, they change my week.

I know, and I use smoking as a coping tool, I think that's next on her list to get rid of. I also don't eat a lot because I'm never hungry, and have lost so much weight due to it, which I hate.

[ankietyjoe]

Yep, I've been there. There were times where I would have to write down and record what I ate and would force myself to eat 1000 cals per day, that's all I could manage. Something to consider though, undereating forces your body to start running on adrenaline, so that alone is a kind of self sustaining source of anxiety.

The thing to try here is really up the healthy fats. Nuts, seeds, avocado, eggs and even cream and butter. These things are good for you, especially cognitively.

You also don't need to show anybody how bad your attacks are. I know when I had bad anxiety MY attacks were the worst anybody had ever experienced, you know YOURS are the worst anybody has experienced etc. And I've also been where you are now, I would have an attack and it would still with me for days or weeks. IF....I have one now, it's minutes. You can get there too, once you learn not to fear them.

And really, what is there to fear? It's only sensation. Nothing is actually happening, apart from sensation. That's what you need to re-learn.

Going back to food for a bit, if you're pushing yourself with exercise AND under eating, that is a significant, significant stress on your body. Your Psychologist may or may not have picked up on this, but it is absolute truth. You cannot under fuel and over exert without consequence.

[LittleLionMan]

The food thing is a really issue. I'm 6' tall, pretty broad, and currently weight 10 1/2 stone, it looks awful, and I know it isn't helping. I will make a real effort to address this, as I know it's a real problem for me.

Undereating forces your body to run on adrenaline?

It's the cognitive side to mine that frighten me, it's like my mind spirals down a hole and I can't get it back, and don't know where the bottom is going to be, I can't even describe it properly, but that might make sense to someone who's suffered them.

Learning to not fear the panic is obviously the ultimate goal, but I can't even imagine reaching that point, as, like most people, they terrify me.

[ankietyjoe]

The food thing is a really issue. I'm 6' tall, pretty broad, and currently weight 10 1/2 stone, it looks awful, and I know it isn't helping. I will make a real effort to address this, as I know it's a real problem for me.

Undereating forces your body to run on adrenaline?



Yes. A persistent lack of calories puts your body on alert. You're effectively telling it food is scarce and flight or fight starts happening more. This is something you really can make progress with, with some clever eating choices. Do you even know what your calorie intake currently is?





It's the cognitive side to mine that frighten me, it's like my mind spirals down a hole and I can't get it back, and don't know where the bottom is going to be, I can't even describe it properly, but that might make sense to someone who's suffered them.



These feelings are normal. A lot of people who have anxiety experience this, and as scary as it is, it's also harmless. I have had times in the past where I'd recite familiar dates and numbers just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind.






Learning to not fear the panic is obviously the ultimate goal, but I can't even imagine reaching that point, as, like most people, they terrify me.

Well, DO imagine reaching that point. There is more to the phrase 'we are what we think' than you can possibly understand.

My anxiety had me confined to a single room in the house at one point, I was a complete and utter mess. It will get better, but you have to MAKE it get better. Try to understand now that thinking 'if only X was better, I could beat this' does not work. Nothing will get better until you make it get better, and you do that by learning not to fear the thing that it is you are running from. There is no escape from anxiety, you cannot avoid it, so you might as well embrace it and say 'whatever dude'.

[LittleLionMan]

My calorie intake varies, but my appetite is the first thing to go when I get anxious, and I don't think smoking helps with that either.

It's right now where my problem lies. I've been on the edge of a panic attack now for 2 hours, not doing anything remotely anxiety provoking, but I think it's leftovers from this morning. A panic attack isn't coming and the feelings aren't going, so I've effectively been stuck at an 8/10 for 2 hours, and my brain is fried and confused, wondering when it's going to spiral down that hole into panic.

Using my mind to create positive narratives would be helpful, but I can't. These current symptoms are easily the hardest I've ever had to handle.

[ankietyjoe]

Yeah a lot of us have been stuck there too, but it will pass.

Keep track of what you eat from now on. Don't judge it, don't place any negative or positive associations with the results, but give yourself a baseline to work with. As a six foot male who does a lot of running and fretting, you should be at a minimum of 2500 cals per day, but I bet you're barely half that a lot of the time.

What kinds of things do you eat when you do eat?

[LittleLionMan]

Today, 2 bags of Wotsits! 😂

I honestly think this is the problem, because I'm not hungry, and eating feels like the last thing I actually want to do, it's hard to fight through the anxiety and generate the effort to bother preparing something. I'm living in a busy house, so someone always prepares an evening meal which I force down, but sometimes that's all I have in a day.

[ankietyjoe]

Today, 2 bags of Wotsits! 

I honestly think this is the problem, because I'm not hungry, and eating feels like the last thing I actually want to do, it's hard to fight through the anxiety and generate the effort to bother preparing something. I'm living in a busy house, so someone always prepares an evening meal which I force down, but sometimes that's all I have in a day.

I'm not going to suggest that your dietary intake is the only reason you feel like sh1t, but it is a considerable source of stress, for sure.

This is a measurable problem, and sound like the kind of thing you can focus on and work with.

In some respects you need to learn how to eat again. I have had periods where I could barely scrape 500 calories a day, but that's ok if it only lasts a week or two. When it becomes a chronic problem that lasts for months on end, it can impact your health in many ways, which I think is what you're experiencing.

I think your goal should be to make sure you get 1500 cals a day for a week. Depending on your evening meal and snacking habit that may already be happening, but empty calories (crisps, chocolate, crap) are meaningless. If you need any help with this let me know as it's something I had to learn and pay attention to for a long time. There are foods you can eat that are both healthy AND allow you to pack easy calories in, and that's where I think you need to start.

Again, there are more factors at play here, but the fundamental basis of health is good nutrition.

[LittleLionMan]

Everything is starting to add up a bit here (thanks to you!), I have been smoking more lately, which suppresses your appetite, so I've effectively replaced a decent diet with an increased use of a stimulant, and started running a few km every day, and been pushing my anxiety under instruction from my psychologist, all at the same time.

Her idea for me is to get up, go for a run pretty much straight away, have a shower, and then eat breakfast. She wants that as my standard start to a day, to set me off on the right foot. I've been struggling with the breakfast bit, so I'm probably just running on bloody empty.

I started buying breakfast bars to eat, on the days that I really didn't feel like eating anything, to almost take the excuses away. I do however eat lots of empty calories, purely because I am too anxious to prepare and eat proper food.
My evening meal is always taken care of, so I just need to try and take care of the other 2 meals somehow, and get myself eating.


I'm not going to suggest that your dietary intake is the only reason you feel like sh1t, but it is a considerable source of stress, for sure.

This is a measurable problem, and sound like the kind of thing you can focus on and work with.

In some respects you need to learn how to eat again. I have had periods where I could barely scrape 500 calories a day, but that's ok if it only lasts a week or two. When it becomes a chronic problem that lasts for months on end, it can impact your health in many ways, which I think is what you're experiencing.

I think your goal should be to make sure you get 1500 cals a day for a week. Depending on your evening meal and snacking habit that may already be happening, but empty calories (crisps, chocolate, crap) are meaningless. If you need any help with this let me know as it's something I had to learn and pay attention to for a long time. There are foods you can eat that are both healthy AND allow you to pack easy calories in, and that's where I think you need to start.

Again, there are more factors at play here, but the fundamental basis of health is good nutrition.

[ankietyjoe]

Without trying to undermine what your psychologist is saying, I would decide for yourself whether running is what you need to do right now. She is correct in suggesting you get up and carry on with your day as normal, but this work output/nutrition input ratio is significant for you right now.

It's also a bit of a myth that you have to eat breakfast and/or 3 meals a day. If you feel more comfortable eating at a different time, do it. This is more of a holistic bigger picture thing. Your bodily can easily 'run on empty' for a day or two if it has to, it's just far less doable to run on partially empty for weeks or months on end, that's where the damage is done.

Keep track of what you eat from now on, your diet is a problem right now and this is something you already know. Work out exactly what you're eating, and how much of it. Then you can work out a plan of attack, and do something about it. There are certain foods that are hugely nutritionally dense that will give you well over 500cals in one sitting and you'll barely notice eating them. The junk foods (and we all love them) will take away more than they'll give you. The sugar crash alone can make you feel like crap.

[LittleLionMan]

To be honest, going for a run is the only thing that brings me any clarity right now, so I wouldn't want to lose that.

I'm going to try and write a bit of a plan tonight, and stick to it tomorrow, without being too hard on myself (that's my other problem!). I feel like death tonight, my head is all over the place, one of the worst I've been, so I will just try and get through tonight, and give it a proper blast tomorrow, hopefully after a decent nights sleep!

What foods are they?

[ankietyjoe]

To be honest, going for a run is the only thing that brings me any clarity right now, so I wouldn't want to lose that.

I'm going to try and write a bit of a plan tonight, and stick to it tomorrow, without being too hard on myself (that's my other problem!). I feel like death tonight, my head is all over the place, one of the worst I've been, so I will just try and get through tonight, and give it a proper blast tomorrow, hopefully after a decent nights sleep!

What foods are they?

Yeah things are just the way they are. Stuff happens, nobody is to blame.

The foods I think you could add to your diet are -

Nuts (walnuts, brazil nuts, almonds)
Seeds (sunflower, chia, pumpkin, hemp)
Fatty fish (Salmon, Mackerel)
Avocado
Potato, Sweet Potato
Butter

And as much fresh fruit and veg as you can, preferably veg.

There are also shakes you might want to try if you have a blender?

40g oats
250ml milk (any kind including coconut, almond, cows milk) - just not the low fat variety
100g frozen berry (any kind, or a mix).
Scoop of whey protein powder
5g nutritional yeast
1 Banana

This shake alone will give you about 450-500 calories and a ton of nutrition. It's also not a lot of food to 'eat'. If you can stomach this for breakfast, it would be good to have post run and it only takes 5 minutes to prepare.

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah things are just the way they are. Stuff happens, nobody is to blame.

The foods I think you could add to your diet are -

Nuts (walnuts, brazil nuts, almonds)
Seeds (sunflower, chia, pumpkin, hemp)
Fatty fish (Salmon, Mackerel)
Avocado
Potato, Sweet Potato
Butter

And as much fresh fruit and veg as you can, preferably veg.

There are also shakes you might want to try if you have a blender?

40g oats
250ml milk (any kind including coconut, almond, cows milk) - just not the low fat variety
100g frozen berry (any kind, or a mix).
Scoop of whey protein powder
5g nutritional yeast
1 Banana

This shake alone will give you about 450-500 calories and a ton of nutrition. It's also not a lot of food to 'eat'. If you can stomach this for breakfast, it would be good to have post run and it only takes 5 minutes to prepare.

Sounds good. There's not a lot of that which I like, but again, you have reminded me that I went on a diet a few years ago, was eating more than ever, of the right things. I was also throwing things in a blender, so that could be a good option for me!

I'm about to have my tea now, mind is racing around trying figure out what's wrong with me, so it will be interesting to see how this goes. These are times when I would avoid eating in the past. I feel like I'm
scared to stop worrying and thinking about anxiety if that makes any sense.

I really think you've hit on something with this physical stuff.

[ankietyjoe]

Let me put this another way.

You don't want to stop intensive exercising (ok), you don't like the healthy foods that have been suggested to you (ok), you are resistant to the advice that both a psychologist and a recovered anxiety sufferer are giving you (ok).....



But what you're already doing isn't working is right? Perhaps this is the time to step out of the comfort zone.

Not a criticism, just a little nudge to hopefully encite a bit of a mental call to arms. A little observation, if you feel fine when your psychologist is about, that's 100% proof that this is something you are bringing on yourself. And that's not a criticism either, I used to do it too, we all did/do.

[LittleLionMan]

Let me put this another way.

You don't want to stop intensive exercising (ok), you don't like the healthy foods that have been suggested to you (ok), you are resistant to the advice that both a psychologist and a recovered anxiety sufferer are giving you (ok).....



But what you're already doing isn't working is right? Perhaps this is the time to step out of the comfort zone.

Not a criticism, just a little nudge to hopefully encite a bit of a mental call to arms. A little observation, if you feel fine when your psychologist is about, that's 100% proof that this is something you are bringing on yourself. And that's not a criticism either, I used to do it too, we all did/do.

I'm not resistant at all mate, you've raised some very good points which I'm trying to implement.
I think I need to exercise, eat more, and just get on with it all, regardless of how I feel, which I did last night, and am continuing to do today, even though I'm feeling dreadful.

[Scass]

There’s definitely a case for “fake it until you make it”, but sometimes doing that is just avoiding the issue. And I’m not saying that to be patronising because I am a great procrastinator.

A lot of the things you are doing are good. It takes a while to create new habits, so whilst they might make you feel a little bit uncomfortable at first, they often just need to sink in. Your anxiety didn’t get built in a day either.


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[ankietyjoe]

I'm not resistant at all mate, you've raised some very good points which I'm trying to implement.
I think I need to exercise, eat more, and just get on with it all, regardless of how I feel, which I did last night, and am continuing to do today, even though I'm feeling dreadful.


Good for you dude.

And Scass is spot on. It takes years to become anxious (and most people never see it coming) as it's all based around low level stress, and it takes a long time for your brain to re-learn how to not fear and overreact to every little thing. You have to hand hold your subconscious through the process.

[LittleLionMan]

Good for you dude.

And Scass is spot on. It takes years to become anxious (and most people never see it coming) as it's all based around low level stress, and it takes a long time for your brain to re-learn how to not fear and overreact to every little thing. You have to hand hold your subconscious through the process.

I've just eaten a steak slice thing and some crisps for my lunch, and haven't been for my run yet, as I'm just finishing some work, so will give it a couple of hours now. I know it's not ideal, but it's calories and it's a start to getting food in me in the daytime. Going to start filling in my Fitbit nutrition thing in to make sure I'm getting enough.
Can tell what a big deal it is though, my mind increased its wandering and actually questioning why/what/for what reason I'm forcing myself to eat for. All these things need to become second nature don't they so my body expects food, and my mind sees it as the norm.

I'll keep pushing and trying, I might be bloody useless, but I'm a fighter, and you seem to need plenty of that for this anxiety game!

[LittleLionMan]

There’s definitely a case for “fake it until you make it”, but sometimes doing that is just avoiding the issue. And I’m not saying that to be patronising because I am a great procrastinator.

A lot of the things you are doing are good. It takes a while to create new habits, so whilst they might make you feel a little bit uncomfortable at first, they often just need to sink in. Your anxiety didn’t get built in a day either.


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That's kind of what I'm trying to do. My psychologist wants my day to start with run, shower, breakfast. I can see her point, because if I get to be that proactive in the morning, it's hard to keep beating yourself up afterwards, even if you do feel rubbish, it just takes some doing when I'm so anxious in the mornings. I also think she thinks that it will basically break the cycle of me dreading and avoiding the day. Time will tell I suppose, but I will give it my all, and she's stripping away all my safety behaviours at the same time, so it's bound to make me feel increasing vulnerable and anxious in the short term, I just hope I see some benefit in the coming weeks / months.

I hope you are good.

Phil

[ankietyjoe]

Although I'm heavily pushing healthy food, I think it's more important that you get food in right now rather than complicate matters. From my own experience however, a good quality diet plays a massive part in mental health. I can literally feel myself slowing down cognitively when I eat too much, too often and of the wrong thing. Be mindful of what you eat, but for now just get it in.

In terms of habit, spot on. Your brain is basically a learning and repetition machine. It will want to do what it did yesterday, even if that 'thing' is self destructive. This is why self talk is so absurdly effective, positive or negative. If you think about being anxious, you'll be anxious, if you think about being well, eventually it WILL make you feel well.

If you have the headspace, I find Cronometer to be a better nutrition tracker than Fitbit. It's free, and you can fully customise recipes on there (shakes for example) so you can just add 'my favourite shake' as a food entry and it will track all the macro and micro nutrients. It will give you a good overall idea of where your diet is.

There is a mixed requirement in your own anxiety self care. You have to find the balance between being compassionate with yourself and allowing yourself time off. Sometimes even now I'll down tools for a day or two because I know I need it. Other times there is an element of 'man the fvck up' and just get on with it. You feel like crap, BOO-HOO. Etc. A lot of anxiety is about feeling sorry for yourself, and this is a Universal truth. But you need both. Being all toxic masculinity about it isn't the way, but neither is pandering to every little needy whim. It's a weird condition alright!

[LittleLionMan]

Although I'm heavily pushing healthy food, I think it's more important that you get food in right now rather than complicate matters. From my own experience however, a good quality diet plays a massive part in mental health. I can literally feel myself slowing down cognitively when I eat too much, too often and of the wrong thing. Be mindful of what you eat, but for now just get it in.

In terms of habit, spot on. Your brain is basically a learning and repetition machine. It will want to do what it did yesterday, even if that 'thing' is self destructive. This is why self talk is so absurdly effective, positive or negative. If you think about being anxious, you'll be anxious, if you think about being well, eventually it WILL make you feel well.

If you have the headspace, I find Cronometer to be a better nutrition tracker than Fitbit. It's free, and you can fully customise recipes on there (shakes for example) so you can just add 'my favourite shake' as a food entry and it will track all the macro and micro nutrients. It will give you a good overall idea of where your diet is.

There is a mixed requirement in your own anxiety self care. You have to find the balance between being compassionate with yourself and allowing yourself time off. Sometimes even now I'll down tools for a day or two because I know I need it. Other times there is an element of 'man the fvck up' and just get on with it. You feel like crap, BOO-HOO. Etc. A lot of anxiety is about feeling sorry for yourself, and this is a Universal truth. But you need both. Being all toxic masculinity about it isn't the way, but neither is pandering to every little needy whim. It's a weird condition alright!

You've actually just hit on what my problem is, and that's that I can't 'down tools', because the quiet times are the worst for me, as the worst of my symptoms are cognitive, so it feels like there is literally no escape. I used to be able to have a lazy afternoon and it would clear my head, now it does the opposite. This is by far my biggest problem, I can't ever give myself a break. I'm never relaxed, and if I do anything relaxing (Sitting down time watch a film or a football match, lie in bed to watch a box set for an hour etc.), even like trying to sleep, I start panicking.

I've been for my run and eaten dinner, so that's a couple of big-ish meals today, had a good nights sleep last night, so could hopefully be a good place to build from.

[ankietyjoe]

Yep, you can definitely build from there.

In the background you need to constantly tell yourself that times of quiet are not to be feared. Panic is not to be feared. If you start panicking it doesn't matter. This is YOU doing it to YOU. If that wasn't the case, you would panic with your psychologist as well, but you don't. And again, she is absolutely right. You do need to do something that triggers the anxiety just so you can get used to it. My own battle was with going out and doing things (the complete opposite of you), but that used to cause me incredible anxiety. For 18 months I used to force myself to go to Tesco 5 times a week because I hated it and it caused me anxiety. There is a wall clock half way round the store and I would often stop there and pretend to use my phone so I could stick my thumb on my neck without people noticing and check my heart rate (always over 120bpm by then). If the panic used to get too much I'd go back to the car, calm myself down and go back in again. If you don't expose yourself to it and learn to live with it, it WILL get worse. There is no other way to deal with this effectively.

Recovering from the place you are in now is a holistic task. It's not about doing one thing, it's about doing 20-30 things that will work together to solve the issue over time. You have to accept that some of the things you have done to make yourself feel better short term are going to have to change.

[LittleLionMan]

Up until 4 months or so ago, my problem was purely going out and doing things, (and still is that as well), but I used to be able to lounge around all day, doing whatever I wanted around the house, perfectly happy and fine, until I started having panic attacks at home, and now nowhere feels safe, and I can't find peace anywhere, anytime.

You have done immense mate!

The problem I have pushing my comfort zone now is that I don't have a comfort zone to return to, so my anxiety is just constant, even if it drops down to a 4/10, I'm always feeling it to a certain degree.

[ankietyjoe]

Even more reason to get used to it, right?

But I used to be in that place too. Anxiety was constant. It was either bad, or worse.

I think eating enough will help. It won't fix it, but you're taking one source of stress away because your body won't be running on empty all the time. Even though you're making effort now I still think it's worth tracking what you have each day just so you know where you are. It would be very easy for you to think you're eating enough and still be basically in starvation mode. At my worst I had a diet like yours and I got down to about 11 1/2 stone and I'm a little under 5ft 10, and I looked really ill, so we know your body is going to need feeding up.

And as for the permanent anxiety, remember again that when your psychologist is there, the anxiety diminishes, so you are capable of being in that place. You've just got used to not being able to cope with it by yourself.

I cut out the bloody fags ;) Been there too, don't miss it!

[LittleLionMan]

I'm a big 6' bloke, and weighed myself last night, and I'm 10st 5lbs! You can imagine how ill I look! It's really not good.

I know the healthy basics are important. I can't expect to be strong mentally when I'm so weak physically.

I'll keep going. Had an awful night last night, so just trying to put that behind me.

[ankietyjoe]

I'll keep going. Had an awful night last night, so just trying to put that behind me.


Bingo. Sh1t happens. Get on with today.

[LittleLionMan]

Had an EMDR session earlier, focussing on creating a better future, and then working through roadblocks that arise. The session went well, I drove to the shop again after, and now I feel awful this evening, constantly trying to evaluate and work stuff out, which I can't stop doing, and have been on the verge of a panic attack for 2 hours. Frustrating, scary stuff.

[ankietyjoe]

constantly trying to evaluate and work stuff out, which I can't stop doing


Well yes, you can.

Now is the time to introduce the concept of meditation.

[LittleLionMan]

I just can't cope with the relentlessness of it all.

I'm having a panic attack right now, over absolutely nothing. I'm so fed up with it, it's unreal.

[LittleLionMan]

I am really scared to meditate, because I think I would panic as soon as I started. I seem to be treading on eggshells with myself, like I'm constantly walking a tightrope, and I can't stop myself from falling.
I honestly didn't know it could all get this bad.

[ankietyjoe]

This is all about a fear of panic. Nothing else is 'wrong' here.

Once you learn to accept that it's just a sensation (like hunger, feeling hot, being horny etc) things will get a lot easier. It's the mental self chatter that panic HAS to be avoided at all costs that's the issue. You cannot avoid it, you cannot escape from it. So just accept it, right?

[LittleLionMan]

That's exactly right. It's doing everything I can to constantly avoid increasing my anxiety, and that becoming the main focal point of my day. It's actually the opposite to what my physiologist wants me to do, but I can't push on whilst my anxiety is so high because it's so horrible.
I slept amazingly last night, (8 1/2 hours! I was shattered last night), forced a sausage, bacon and egg sandwich down me earlier, and am just trying to concentrate on my work now.

I want to go for my run, but have a really bad stomach ache (which I never get), and my knees are hurting, so I'm going to see how they are in an hour or so.

It's trying to stop worrying about have a panic attack, when I'm so scared of having a panic attack.

[ankietyjoe]

I can't push on whilst my anxiety is so high because it's so horrible.


Yes we know it's horrible, but you have to push on. You don't actually have a choice, it ain't going anywhere soon.

Think about why you're scared of having a panic attack. What actually happens.......? The answer is nothing, it's just a feeling. You have to get this straight in your mind. You're running from a sensation that's caused by the running. You see that, right?

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, I see it.
I'm just struggling to gain the clarity in myself as to what to do with it. It's the confusion in my mind which is bringing the anxiety. My mind just swirls around trying to figure it all out, then when I can't resolve it, I panic.

I've just written quite a demanding day plan for tomorrow, and I'm going to try and do it no matter how I feel.

[ankietyjoe]

I still don't think you're getting what the psychologist is trying to say, and what I'm trying to explain.

It's not about ploughing on with work/running/whatever no matter what. It's about stopping, feeling the anxiety and being ok just feeling it.

You can't figure this out, you cannot out-think anxiety. I tried that for years because I thought I was cleverer than the normal sufferer, but it doesn't work. There IS nothing to figure out. It's here, and it's hard.

"I can't cope with this" - You don't have a choice.

"It's hard" - Yeah, we know.

"If I do X, then I'll panic" - Yup.


Until you learn to accept the anxiety and practice NOT reacting or running, you will suffer with it. There is no other way to deal with this, no matter how much conscious effort you put into finding a solution that a billion others never found.

[LittleLionMan]

I know, and I don't mean head down ploughing through, I mean increasing my activity, which will (and is) increasing my anxiety, and then acknowledging it, and carrying on regardless.

My psychologist wants me to increase activity so that even though I'm still anxious, I will be able to look at something and say 'that might make me anxious' (but I'll do it anyway), 'this is making me anxious' (but I know I'm OK and can do this), or 'that made me anxious' (but I was fine and nothing happened to me).

It's about exploring and facing the things that make me anxious and showing myself I can cope with it, instead of lounging around, or lying in bed, and creating numerous scary stories about all the what ifs, and not getting anywhere.

Does that make more sense?

[ankietyjoe]

Yes it makes sense, but you started this thread (and made a point multiple times) that it's hardest when you're not busy or distracted with something.

I think the key here is for you to sit with the anxiety when you're not focused on something else.

Obviously tackle it when you're doing something too, but your biggest fear seems to be dealing with it alone, undistracted.

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but I get plenty of those quiet times anyway when I'm sitting and working, or trying to sleep, so I am constantly challenging that,

My problem is basically a wandering scary mind that is constantly reminding me how screwed I am, and drags up worst case scenarios of panic and puts me in them constantly.

[ankietyjoe]

My problem is basically a wandering scary mind that is constantly reminding me how screwed I am, and drags up worst case scenarios of panic and puts me in them constantly.

That's the same of everybody with bad anxiety. You are not unique in this. You are simply making mental excuses not to do the things you really know you have to do. But fret not, we all do/did that too.

Furthermore, having little quiet breaks when you're working is not the same as deliberately putting yourself in that place.

Nothing you are saying is unique to you. Nothing you are saying is different or special enough for the same techniques not to work for you. It's easy to believe that we are the only ones to have ever had it this bad, but that's just not the case. What you are saying is pretty textbook for a lot of people who suffer with anxiety. You should take comfort in this, because it also means that textbook solutions will work for you too. You just have to get to the point where you make the decision to stop trying to avoid and run from uncomfortable sensations.

[LittleLionMan]

I've just agreed with my Psychologist that I'm going to do a mindfulness practice tomorrow, before my session with her, so we can discuss how it went, and try and give me the confidence to do it more often on my own. I've done it with her.
I'm also going to attempt a drive to the shop on my own if I'm feeling up to it before the session, so I can try and prove to myself that I can do it on my own, to give myself the confidence to push them boundaries on my own.

She tries to tell me that it's pretty textbook anxiety, and I know what you mean, that everyone thinks theirs is unique.

[ankietyjoe]

I'm going to go on a massive road of generalisation here, but here goes -


There are two types of people with anxiety. Those who constantly fight it, looking for 'the solution'. Always looking for an external solution for an internal problem. They make it a life long quest to not accept that sometimes sh1t does in fact, just happen. Their search is endless.

The other type of person gives in to the current situation. It's here, accept it. Don't fight, don't run, don't try to evade. They are paradoxically the ones who recover faster.

You don't have to 'prove' to yourself you can do it on your own, of course you can do it on your own. What you need to prove to yourself is that you can do it on your own whilst feeling like hell, and then not feeling sorry for yourself/getting angry/judging yourself/wondering what if....at the same time. It is what it is, nothing more.

I'm just trying to get you to that point as fast as possible, because it took me nearly 10 years to learn the reality of recovery. That 10 years was a constant battle with trying to avoid anything that made me anxious and fearing the anxiety when it did happen. It's such a waste of time.

[LittleLionMan]

I'm definitely the first one in that example!
Without sounding big headed, I'm a really intelligent, degree qualified engineer, my head is basically built to logically find solutions to problems, it's why I'm good at what I do, but that really seems to work against me here!

I'm doing some tolerating now actually, my mind is kind of a blank, as if time has stood still, distracted mess, and I can't concentrate on anything. I'm really in a mess, and I'm on the verge of a panic attack, but I'm just trying to let it be there.

[ankietyjoe]

I have an IQ of 171 (measured and tested). Trust me, intelligence has got nothing to do with recovery, and in some respects it makes it worse. You think you know better, you think you can find the solution that 'all the other idiots' couldn't.

You have to go completely against the analytic smart arse in your head and trust in acceptance and a bit of 'faith'.

[LittleLionMan]

Bloody hell, thats higher than mine! Haha!

That's what I mean though, I don't think intelligence helps people in this regard, especially a logical, calculating kind of mind. I would love to not be a 'thinker' and be able to just ride with the punches a lot easier.

I know, it's being able to 'feel' without being scared of it all. The anxiety has eased a bit now, I just feel a bit numb now. Should be a big day tomorrow with attempting mindfulness on my own, trying to drive to the shop on my own, all followed by a therapy session.

[pulisa]

You're obsessed with anxiety and this is the problem in my opinion. You think about "it" day and night..

I'd suggest thinking "what the hell" and just go with the flow..Giving importance and significance to anxiety is a guaranteed recipe for continuing the adrenaline cycle.. Intellectual ability makes the analysing worse..I'm not an analyst and I'm thankful for that because it certainly works against you. Not caring about sensations/symptoms is your goal really..Let them do their worst and don't challenge them with adrenaline-you won't "win".

[ankietyjoe]

Bloody hell, thats higher than mine! Haha!

That's what I mean though, I don't think intelligence helps people in this regard, especially a logical, calculating kind of mind. I would love to not be a 'thinker' and be able to just ride with the punches a lot easier.

I know, it's being able to 'feel' without being scared of it all. The anxiety has eased a bit now, I just feel a bit numb now. Should be a big day tomorrow with attempting mindfulness on my own, trying to drive to the shop on my own, all followed by a therapy session.

A couple of points here.

1) "I would love to not be a thinker".....this is a habit as much as anything else. Meditation helps massively here. Pulisa is on to something though, you're possibly mistaking obsessing with thinking. Meditation negates obsessive thoughts by training you to let thoughts come and go when unwanted.

2) Tomorrow isn't a big day. It's just a day. You're already placing tomorrow in an elevated state. Again, Pulisa is 100% correct here. When you place importance or significance on an event you create the mental atmosphere of expectancy, you start adrenaline flowing. This makes you feel more anxious, and more adrenaline flows. This is the cycle that's causing you problems now. There is zero value in analysing anxiety.

[LittleLionMan]

Hi Pulisa,

I agree that I'm obsessed with it, because I'm so fearful of it at the minute. It's evolved into something I didn't know it could to be honest.

Not caring about the symptoms is definitely the aim, as I'm constantly analysing how I'm feeling, almost 'on guard', and preemptively defending myself against them, and I can't seem to stop.

[LittleLionMan]

I know from what you and my psychologist are telling me, there is zero value in analysing it, I just can't help it. I'm trying though.

I felt OK for an hour earlier and then it all came crashing down pretty swiftly, but I had an hour that weren't horrific, so that's definitely better than I have been getting. What crashed it, ironically, was me noticing that I felt OK, so I assume I then started overthinking why. I felt energised and was worried I wouldn't be able to come back down again to sleep. Honestly, I would love to be able to stop this pattern, it's exhausting and terrifying.

[pulisa]

"Exhausting", "terrifying", "horrific"..What if you just tried to view your anxiety as an inconvenience rather than as a malignant force?

[LittleLionMan]

That is the aim, the trouble is that it has become that relentless lately. It actually got worse from some bad advice from my previous therapist I think. She started going down a route that convinced me I had some unprocessed trauma, and had me scouting my mind to reveal some dark memory, but because there was nothing there, I spent hours searching every corner of my mind, and then couldn't get out of the habit. I think she just meant I was too hard on myself, but she didn't put it over like that, and by the time she did, it was months down the line, and I had for myself in a mess.

I've just done the first two anxiety mindfulness practices on Headspace to learn to distance from it a little and just allow it to be there, which went OK actually.

[ankietyjoe]

Again, Pulisa is spot on. Keep remembering that anxiety isn't an external monster, it's your reaction to stimulus....nothing more.


In terms of therapists. Well, some of them can just be idiots, that's all there is to it. I've used multiple therapists over the years including a hypnotist a few times (useful in the right situation). One was really good and helped me quit smoking, the other was utterly useless and kept trying to get me to recall a memory from when I was 1 year old. I can't remember anything from when I was 1, she kept insisting I could. I insisted on a refund and never went back. Anxiety isn't simply a result of unprocessed trauma, and the reality is that the vast majority of people don't have anything close to unprocessed trauma in their lives.

Anxiety is almost exclusively about stress. In very rare cases it can be a chemical or hormonal imbalance, but this is exceptionally rare and you would be experiencing all sorts of other horrendous problems at the same time.

So it comes back to the simple acts of acceptance, meditation, finding your safe mental place etc.

'The trouble is' is a phrase you use a lot. Try and stop using phrases like that as you give yourself a mental excuse to not recover. Life is crap sometimes, you can't expect to all the problems to disappear so you can have the space to heal, it will never be that way in the real world. You have to recover WITH the crap, not without it.

If there's one thing you can apply intellect to, it's the idea of your neural pathways and how they learn. Try and think of your thought patterns as roads. The more traffic goes down a certain route, the bigger, wider, faster the road needs to be, right? Your brain (simplified) works in the same way. There is a lot of truth in the phrase 'you are what you think'. If you keep telling yourself that everything is terrible and that you can't cope, that will be your reality. I had always assumed that my intellect was somehow superior to my subconscious, but it doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter that you can see behind the curtain, self talk is still preposterously powerful. Again, if you keep telling yourself you can't cope, you will not cope. Your anxiety is your subconscious brain that's attaching fear to something benign. As it attaches more fear to more things, it becomes increasingly difficult to cope with day to day life until you reach the point that you are at now which is to fear the fear itself, and this is where it becomes self sustaining. Coming back to the point....neural pathways. Your brain is elastic, you are what you think etc. When you experience anxiety and tell yourself 'this is ok, I know what this is, this will pass', neural pathways are literally and physically created. When you keep telling yourself you CAN cope, eventually you will cope. I cannot stress how important this is, and how critical it is to get out of the self pity (which is normal) mode. Again, Pulisa is correct...this is an inconvenience...nothing more.

[LittleLionMan]

My psychologist has just gone, and I'm having the worst panic attack I've ever had.

Trying to ride it out. It's bloody horrific.

[LittleLionMan]

This panic attack has stemmed from the memory of one of the worst panic attacks I ever had, when I didn't really know what panic attacks were. It's like I'm there again, and whenever it crosses my mind, the anxiety spikes into panic again. The worst thing about it was being 'elevated' floaty, to a point where nothing felt real and I ended up going to the out of hours clinic all them years ago. I am doing EMDR on it on Friday.

[pulisa]

My psychologist has just gone, and I'm having the worst panic attack I've ever had.

Trying to ride it out. It's bloody horrific.

You did ride it out.You were able to post about it on here quite clearly so maybe describing it as horrific was only your anxious mind's interpretation of it and not actual fact?

[LittleLionMan]

I think it was my anxious minds interpretation of being 'floaty' that brought it on in the first place.

It's coming in waves, there have been two big ones so far, and I seem to be between waves at the minute. I'm just trying to carry on with my work and let everything come and go, including the thoughts that keep causing it.

[LittleLionMan]

I will try and imprint that, and try and get through it.

I think I do actually get most of the theory, largely thanks to your help, which I thank you for.

I'm just struggling to put it in to practice purely because panic attacks and the cognitive symptoms that accompany them are so terrifying to me, that's what I need to get my head around.

[ankietyjoe]

I think it was my anxious minds interpretation of being 'floaty' that brought it on in the first place.

It's coming in waves, there have been two big ones so far, and I seem to be between waves at the minute. I'm just trying to carry on with my work and let everything come and go, including the thoughts that keep causing it.

Important mental pathway to strengthen right now....

The thoughts are not causing this, your reaction is causing it. This is really important to understand.

You're doing fine and this will pass. Feeling floaty is 'normal' with anxiety.

[ankietyjoe]

I will try and imprint that, and try and get through it.

I think I do actually get most of the theory, largely thanks to your help, which I thank you for.

I'm just struggling to put it in to practice purely because panic attacks and the cognitive symptoms that accompany them are so terrifying to me, that's what I need to get my head around.

That's the important word here (sorry I keep doing it like this, trying to pander to your analytical mind lol).

You can know the theory and still feel like crap, because you need to practice the theory for the new mental pathways to burn in. This is where faith comes into it, that word I used a page or two back. You have to have faith in the process, because it works. What most people find hard is that anxiety demands an immediate fix, and there isn't one. This is about standing back and understanding that what you do and how you react today will be the thing that helps you beat this weeks or months down the line. All of this is hard, so you don't need to keep saying it.

[LittleLionMan]

Haha, we've been talking long enough for you to know how I think! 😂

That is what I mean, I'm desperate to be able to do the right thing to facilitate recovery. I'm desperate to not be so scared, and I'm desperate to be able to stop analysing, and stop freaking out when panic arises, but I'm struggling so hard to actually do it.

Today has been up there with one of the worst days I've ever had, hope has literally drained out of me, to a point where I was nearly in tears before (I never cry) and I'm still sat trying to do my work tolerating it all.

[ankietyjoe]

Have a cry. You'll feel better.

There's really no reason not to.

[pulisa]

Haha, we've been talking long enough for you to know how I think! 

That is what I mean, I'm desperate to be able to do the right thing to facilitate recovery. I'm desperate to not be so scared, and I'm desperate to be able to stop analysing, and stop freaking out when panic arises, but I'm struggling so hard to actually do it.

Today has been up there with one of the worst days I've ever had, hope has literally drained out of me, to a point where I was nearly in tears before (I never cry) and I'm still sat trying to do my work tolerating it all.

"Desperate", "freaking out", "struggling",..I'm not surprised that you are feeling drained. Try to take the emotive words out and think more about lessening the reaction to uncomfortable sensations?

[LittleLionMan]

I know what you are saying, but I can't really describe it any other way?

That is how it's been, anything else would be a lie.
These symptoms aren't 'uncomfortable', they have had me unsure whether to dial 999 or get my mate to find me some kind of mental hospital, that's how bad it's been.

I could pretend they have been a little uncomfortable, but they haven't, and there would be no point in lying like that?

[ankietyjoe]

I know what you are saying, but I can't really describe it any other way?

That is how it's been, anything else would be a lie.
These symptoms aren't 'uncomfortable', they have had me unsure whether to dial 999 or get my mate to find me some kind of mental hospital, that's how bad it's been.

I could pretend they have been a little uncomfortable, but they haven't, and there would be no point in lying like that?

Then just shutup about it?

We all know how you feel, you know how you feel, your therapist knows how you feel, right?

Play the game, see where I'm going with this.....

[LittleLionMan]

OK mate.

Thanks for your help anyway.

[pulisa]

I know what you are saying, but I can't really describe it any other way?

That is how it's been, anything else would be a lie.
These symptoms aren't 'uncomfortable', they have had me unsure whether to dial 999 or get my mate to find me some kind of mental hospital, that's how bad it's been.

I could pretend they have been a little uncomfortable, but they haven't, and there would be no point in lying like that?

NHS psychiatric units are incredibly difficult to get admitted to for panic attacks. Private hospitals cost at least a grand a night if you self-fund. If you go to A&E you will have to wait for hours to see the psychiatric liaison doctor and will get sent home with a handful of self-help pamphlets.

[LittleLionMan]

I know, and I apologise if that came over wrong, it was just me trying to explain how my day has been. I didn't mean to sound dramatic, and I'm not trying to make out my anxiety is special or any worse than anyone else's, I just wish I could view it how you described. I want to be able to just view it as a discomfort that I can tolerate, but I can't.

I know being able to reduce the impact the anxiety has on me, and being able to not be so frightened of it would be the biggest step I could take.

[ankietyjoe]

You know when I said shutup it was for effect, right?

I mean shutup to yourself as much as anything.

Your journey is going to be a long one, and nobody expects you to do what we are saying and be better by dinner. But you will get there, it just takes time.

[pulisa]

I know, and I apologise if that came over wrong, it was just me trying to explain how my day has been. I didn't mean to sound dramatic, and I'm not trying to make out my anxiety is special or any worse than anyone else's, I just wish I could view it how you described. I want to be able to just view it as a discomfort that I can tolerate, but I can't.

I know being able to reduce the impact the anxiety has on me, and being able to not be so frightened of it would be the biggest step I could take.

Why do you think it would be so impossible for you.. in time.. to view your anxiety as an inconvenience though? You can't yet because your brain thinks that it is the worst thing ever. You've analysed your anxiety to death so it's the one and only focus of your life now. You need to get your life back and turn down the anxiety alert switch. Does it help meeting up with friends? Can you get any distraction from doing other things?

[LittleLionMan]

Why do you think it would be so impossible for you.. in time.. to view your anxiety as an inconvenience though? You can't yet because your brain thinks that it is the worst thing ever. You've analysed your anxiety to death so it's the one and only focus of your life now. You need to get your life back and turn down the anxiety alert switch. Does it help meeting up with friends? Can you get any distraction from doing other things?
In time, that's where I would love to get to.

I know, the thing is, even with the anxiety, I have quite a full life, I just struggle to concentrate on it at the minute, and get my mind into life. I have a good job that I do from home, friends, family, everything you would think would result in a happy life.

[LittleLionMan]

You know when I said shutup it was for effect, right?

I mean shutup to yourself as much as anything.

Your journey is going to be a long one, and nobody expects you to do what we are saying and be better by dinner. But you will get there, it just takes time.
Not really, I took it pretty literally, but I know what you mean, I need to hold other things in my mind instead of just catastrophising and evaluating anxiety.

[ankietyjoe]

I need to hold other things in my mind instead of just catastrophising and evaluating anxiety.


Absolutely bingo. There is no value in paying attention to it or trying to evaluate it. It accomplishes nothing.

If you find yourself focusing on it, give yourself a mental 'oh shut up'. Get bored with your own mental state, tell it you're tired of it's nonsense. Walk away from it when you feel bad. Literally stand up and walk away, say 'BOOOOOORIIIIING' out loud. You'd be surprised at how effective this is over time.

[LittleLionMan]

Absolutely bingo. There is no value in paying attention to it or trying to evaluate it. It accomplishes nothing.

If you find yourself focusing on it, give yourself a mental 'oh shut up'. Get bored with your own mental state, tell it you're tired of it's nonsense. Walk away from it when you feel bad. Literally stand up and walk away, say 'BOOOOOORIIIIING' out loud. You'd be surprised at how effective this is over time.
I will try that.

I'm just working this morning, trying to concentrate on that, and leaving the mental chatter alone. I had quite a relaxed hour last night, so I'm reminding myself of that sometimes when my mind starts making predictions. It hasn't been a good morning, but I'm just tolerating it.

I'm going to try for a run in a bit, as I haven't been for a few days.

[WiredIncorrectly]

I will try that.

I'm just working this morning, trying to concentrate on that, and leaving the mental chatter alone. I had quite a relaxed hour last night, so I'm reminding myself of that sometimes when my mind starts making predictions. It hasn't been a good morning, but I'm just tolerating it.

I'm going to try for a run in a bit, as I haven't been for a few days.

A run is lovely to set you up for the day. A morning run will practically kill any anxiety throughout the day. Wish I could go for one today tbh but holed up in bed resting.

[LittleLionMan]

A run is lovely to set you up for the day. A morning run will practically kill any anxiety throughout the day. Wish I could go for one today tbh but holed up in bed resting.
Sorry, I've only just seen this message.

Going for a run seems to go one of two ways, sometimes it really helps, and sometimes my mind wanders somewhere and it makes me feel worse (like it has done today), but that's just because my issue is intrusive thoughts and relentless analysing of my condition at the moment.

It has helped me in the past though, and I want to get back to it.

[ankietyjoe]

but that's just because my issue is intrusive thoughts and relentless analysing of my condition at the moment.




J (Wired), tell him :)

[LittleLionMan]

J (Wired), tell him :)
Hey?

[ankietyjoe]

Hey?

Wired (like myself) used to feel just like you do. Was hoping he would chime in with some words of encouragement too!

Hope you're feeling a bit better today dude. Get some Vitamin D in the sun, it does help!

[LittleLionMan]

Wired (like myself) used to feel just like you do. Was hoping he would chime in with some words of encouragement too!

Hope you're feeling a bit better today dude. Get some Vitamin D in the sun, it does help!
I've just been for my run, and it has dawned on me what you said the other day about my attention.

First thing this morning, I emailed my psychologist warning her how bad I was and telling her the concerns I had that I wanted answer to ahead of today's session (which is understandable), then before my run, I was reading articles about intrusive thoughts and mind chatter, then when I did my run, I listened to an interview with David Carbonell about worry. Then here I am now, with a foggy head, on the verge of panic.

Add things like that to all the mental 'self checking', the posting on here, the talking to my mates about it, and the constant trying to hold my mind tightly so it doesn't wander off, then I wonder why all my thoughts are worrying about worrying, and why I'm so confused about it all! 🤷

[pulisa]

Exactly..you're obsessed with your anxiety. High time to remember that you are more than your anxiety. You said that you have a full life so you're lucky..Time to re engage with what you are neglecting?

[LittleLionMan]

Exactly..you're obsessed with your anxiety. High time to remember that you are more than your anxiety. You said that you have a full life so you're lucky..Time to re engage with what you are neglecting?
Yep.

I've just had an appointment with my psychologist, it all came out, tears, panic attack, everything.

She thinks that a HUGE part of this is because I'm not eating properly (I've lost another 6lb in the last 2 weeks), and she can see how ill I look. I'm 6' tall and 10st 3lb now.

We went for a massive walk around the field, and I felt like I was passing out, and she forced me to eat a banana to get me to eat even when I'm feeling my worst.

I have a day plan to stick to, and she tried to push the medication route again, which I rejected.

[LittleLionMan]

This is the (ambitious) plan she came up with for me...

Day Plan - Every Day

7:30 Get up
7:30 Sort / prepare work
8:00 Eat breakfast bar or fruit
9:00 Place bets
9:00 Fill in betting spreadsheet
9:15 Go for a run
10:00 Have a shower
10:15 Make / have breakfast
10:30 Do work
1:00 Have lunch
1:30 Continue work
4:00 Snack
4:15 Continue work
7:00 Eat tea
8:00 Do worry schedule
8:15 Snack
Do whatever I want
Have a shower
Go to bed early-ish

[pulisa]

Does someone prepare food for you? When do you shop for food?

[LittleLionMan]

Does someone prepare food for you? When do you shop for food?
Yeah, I moved into a side of my family house last year to have people around me, so I have an evening meal with the family.
I sort everything else out though.

The other big one is interpreting normal bodily / mental sensations as triggers. I'm exhausted tonight, and just want to sleep, but as discussed with the food thing, I've also ran 3.5km and walked for half an hour across fields today, so being knackered is probably exactly the perfectly correct thing to feel, yet my mind is panicking because I have to stay awake for a few hours yet.

I do the same if I get a floaty / busy mind, or even a vacant blank mind. All things 'normal' people would feel, and think nothing of.

[pulisa]

All normal feelings though..but your brain interprets them as triggers because you don't view them as normal.

When you are agitated 24/7 it's very difficult to gain/maintain weight because you are just burning so many calories due to all the adrenaline being produced. It's important to eat good nutritious food-it doesn't have to be fancy stuff but don't panic if you increase your food intake but still don't gain weight. It will help if you can turn your anxiety switch down a notch or 5..but this will take time.

[LittleLionMan]

That's it, I'm panicking now because I'm so tired that I can barely function, and it's too early to go to bed. Even reminding myself of the fact that being tired isn't dangerous and the worst thing that will happen is that I will fall asleep isn't helping so I've given up and am just letting it happen.

Yeah, that's it. I'm just planning to get myself to eat, however I'm feeling, and am hoping that gets my appetite back and it slowly becomes easier.

My psychologist got me panicking today with a long walk and then made me eat a banana to prove to myself that it doesn't matter how anxious I am, I can eat. She just wants me to push through any symptoms I get. She's a bit sadistic I think, even has this little smirk on her face when she tells me to do difficult things. Haha.

[ankietyjoe]

The eating thing is incredibly significant. At this point I would even suggest having a couple of meal replacement shakes and an evening meal. Anything that's quick and easy to get the calories in. You can worry about the actual nutrition of your diet later.

I'm not sure I see the value in the schedule she has given you as (to me) you are the type of person who might self analyse if you 'fail' the tasks laid out for you. I'm just putting that out there as something that you might want to make a decision rather than be dictated to.

From everything you've said, my anxiety was at least as bad, if not a lot worse than yours (no, really). I never took medication and it's not 99% gone, so don't worry about having to take it. I knew all along it was not the route I wanted to go down.

And if you feel that I'm being flippant about how you feel, it's deliberate. It's the attitude that you need to learn about your anxiety too.

And once again Pulisa is right. One of the biggest issues here is the amount of time YOU are spending completely focused on anxiety. The only possible outcome of monitoring or assessing how your anxiety is, is additional anxiety. There is no immediate process to reverse this, but at least be mindful about the amount of time you spent hyper aware. Tell yourself it's ok to feel like crap and watch some TV at the same time.

[LittleLionMan]

The eating thing is incredibly significant. At this point I would even suggest having a couple of meal replacement shakes and an evening meal. Anything that's quick and easy to get the calories in. You can worry about the actual nutrition of your diet later.

I'm not sure I see the value in the schedule she has given you as (to me) you are the type of person who might self analyse if you 'fail' the tasks laid out for you. I'm just putting that out there as something that you might want to make a decision rather than be dictated to.

From everything you've said, my anxiety was at least as bad, if not a lot worse than yours (no, really). I never took medication and it's not 99% gone, so don't worry about having to take it. I knew all along it was not the route I wanted to go down.

And if you feel that I'm being flippant about how you feel, it's deliberate. It's the attitude that you need to learn about your anxiety too.

And once again Pulisa is right. One of the biggest issues here is the amount of time YOU are spending completely focused on anxiety. The only possible outcome of monitoring or assessing how your anxiety is, is additional anxiety. There is no immediate process to reverse this, but at least be mindful about the amount of time you spent hyper aware. Tell yourself it's ok to feel like crap and watch some TV at the same time.

I was considering shakes, but I ate quite well yesterday, so hoping I can continue that.

I'm purposely not being hard on myself with the schedule, I'm just seeing it as an ideal, not a set in stone stick to beat myself with, like I told her there was no way I would be able to eat first thing.

Going for my run in a minute, so hopefully that perks me up to have a bit of breakfast and it will go from there.

Seeing the symptoms and horrible feelings as insignificant really is the key isn't it. Something I think everyone struggles with. I've been trying to bring the other things in my life into play, but finding that hard as well, because nothing is enjoyable when you have to tolerate anxiety whilst doing them.

[ankietyjoe]

Seeing the symptoms and horrible feelings as insignificant really is the key isn't it. Something I think everyone struggles with. I've been trying to bring the other things in my life into play, but finding that hard as well, because nothing is enjoyable when you have to tolerate anxiety whilst doing them.


I'm not sure that insignificant is the absolute best term, but ultimately yes.

The entire point of this thread for me is to get you in a place mentally that takes most people a year or two to get to when left to their own devices.

Your reactions to anxiety are completely normal, and par for the course. It's very common for people to absolutely catastrophise what they are feeling and for them to 'know' that nobody else understands. It's also normal for people to try everything to evade, run or avoid anxiety, but that is absolutely the wrong thing to do and paradoxically can only make it worse.

The quicker we can get you to the acceptance phase, the better. It still might take you a month or two to get there, but to be able to avoid the normal anxiety life cycle at the start is the goal here, I feel.

[LittleLionMan]

I can feel myself doing that a tad, quite instinctively now. I've just been doing an urgent job for work, and my throat tightened, mind wandered, and I acknowledged it, but didn't really react and carried on with my work.

The biggest thought problem I seem to have at the minute is that my mind goes to evaluating the day / how long do I have to cope / how many hours until I can go to sleep/ how bad will I be all day / when will I panic / how bad will it be... etc.
Dealing with things as they come is one thing, but looking ahead, it obviously feels very overwhelming, so I have to stop engaging with them thoughts. I'm trying to apply the fortune teller idea to it, that my mind doesn't know how I will be, so there's no point guessing.

[ankietyjoe]

I'm going to bring you back to the idea of meditation.


Put simply, the whole point of meditation is to practice bringing your mind back to the object of your focus when your mind wanders (and it will wander). The point isn't succeeding, the point is practicing.

For example, you focus on your breathing. Within 1.3 seconds your mind will wander. You don't judge it, you don't attach a negative or positive feeling to the wander, you just slowly re-focus on your breathing. 2.6 seconds later your mind wanders again....you re-focus. 0.5 seconds.....you get the picture.

The power this practice has to negate exactly what you are describing here cannot be overestimated. Without going into great detail, mindfulness (a close relative of meditation) could be incorporated into your morning run for example. You can take this mental practice with you wherever you go.

I would highly recommend a book by Mark Williams called Mindfulness.

[LittleLionMan]

I've got that book actually, I also tried to do the BeMindful online course, but didn't finish it as I found it very difficult, and blamed it at the time for making me worse. I have noticed that my mind wanders around when I run and I do actually practice bring my attention back to the rhythm of the run.

I get scared of things like mindfullness (or anything for that matter) will make me worse, and then I'll have to cope with that increase in anxiety symptoms.
Everything seems to be a calculation in my mind, scared to do anything that might 'rock the boat', so I end up doing nothing but sitting and panicking, as everything seems scary. The one thing that I have going for me is that I always sleep well now!

[ankietyjoe]

Mindfulness can't make it worse in itself, neither can mediation. If you react badly and have an increased sense of panic then it's most likely because you expect to, that's how anxiety works. But the irony is that the thing you believe is making you worse is the thing that helps you ignore the ingrained negative feedback loops you're stuck in.

Again, you are what you think.....for the most part.

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, that's what my psychologist said.
It like every time I panic after doing something, my mind lays down a red flag and I never want to do it again, and I get boxed in.

[LittleLionMan]

I get the same after I've eaten. Most of my high anxiety times (like this horrible one now!) come after I've eaten. No idea why.

[ankietyjoe]

As we've said before, avoiding things that cause you anxiety (or to be more precise, things that you attach an anxious reaction to) serve no purpose.

There is a line to be drawn however. It's still best to avoid coffee, drugs, horror movies and anything else that will artificially stimulate the adrenals or fear response. It's ok to avoid those if you choose. It's a bad idea to avoid eating, shopping, 'normal' activities, exercise, sex etc etc though. As you say, you box yourself into a corner that becomes increasingly difficult to get out of. At my worst I could barely go outside. Even taking the bins out (down a 20ft alleyway) would cause me horrendous anxiety.

It's best to try and normalise those things now.

In terms of eating. I suspect it's because you're eating a lot of high carbohydrate junk foods. Try having something like egg and bacon for lunch and see if it's still the same. Even now if I eat a high carb lunch my heart rate will bang away for a couple of hours and I'll feel the shakes. I just don't pay attention to it any more. But in reality you're at the stage now where farting could cause a panic attack so just ride it out.

This laying down of red flags (as you call it) is incredibly common, and sadly one of the most self defeating things you can do. We all do it, because we feel it's the right thing to do at the time, but it's really not.

[LittleLionMan]

I've just panicked now after trying to figure all this stuff out. That's massively what I have to stop. It ends up taking your mind back through all the bad times you've had, and there is only ever going to be one outcome!

I used to get the same when I worked in my office, I would be fine up until break time, eat, and then my anxiety would start up.

I don't go much further myself at the minute.

You're right though, that you can assign anxiety to everything if you want to, you're always going to be doing something when you panic, I just find it hard to accept the randomness of it all.

[ankietyjoe]

I just find it hard to accept the randomness of it all.


Try harder.....really that's it.


Remember, you are just starting a process of reversing what you thought the answer was (avoidance). It goes against your self protection systems to carry on doing things that you have assigned anxiety to, and even more so to ignore the resulting anxiety. The anxiety is there to keep you safe, right? The fight or flight response is there to keep you alive, so ignoring it is counter intuitive, but it's being triggered in error and that's what you need to re-teach your subconscious.

Keep in mind that anxiety is a completely normal physiological response. It's the inappropriate triggering and reaction you're having that's the real issue, not the anxiety itself.

[LittleLionMan]

I love how clear this all is in your head!

I suppose if you look at like that, whether you know why you're anxious or not, the fact you are panicking is exactly the right time to tolerate and accept it, because something has obviously set your fire alarm off.
The problem I have is that it's my own mind that is setting the fire alarm off. It's this analysing and making negative predictions that starts it, that's what I need to quieten... that's become blatantly clear today.

[ankietyjoe]

I love how clear this all is in your head!

I suppose if you look at like that, whether you know why you're anxious or not, the fact you are panicking is exactly the right time to tolerate and accept it, because something has obviously set your fire alarm off.
The problem I have is that it's my own mind that is setting the fire alarm off. It's this analysing and making negative predictions that starts it, that's what I need to quieten... that's become blatantly clear today.

Have you noticed how often you end a post using a phrase like this?

It's the same for everybody, and it's only a problem if you label it as a problem. It's just a habit right now, a learned way to observe your anxiety. Your mind isn't a malevolent third party, your mind is just a memory bank that compares current experiences with previous experiences. It's YOU, the conscious you that is attaching danger labels to benign situations.

And it's only clear in my head because I did exactly the same as you for years and years, until I learned what was really happening. It's not an inherent skill I have, it's something that took bloody years of my life to get straight in my head. Anxiety literally stole a decade of my life, and I wish I'd known all this back then as I would have nipped it in the bud in weeks rather than years.

If you find yourself analysing or making negative predictions, just stop doing it. Doesn't matter what you do instead, just anything that breaks the habit, even if it's doing a silly walk for 2 minutes.

[pulisa]

My personal opinion is that you need to log off from this forum for a bit now because otherwise you are just saturating yourself with information . You know the basics..It all boils down to the fact that your panic symptoms are harmless and don't indicate imminent collapse. You know you need to keep your blood sugar levels well balanced and that means eating regularly throughout the day no matter how bad you feel. You need to reintroduce normal things back into your life again and put thoughts of anxiety and anxiety monitoring on the backburner.

[LittleLionMan]

I think it's me asking for, and trying to get more advice if you like. I want it all to fall in to place for me so I'm doing the right things.

I wasn't being dismissive there, and I know you have been in this place, and know how hard this place is.

I've actually gone against my anxiety today, for most of the day. After I did my run and that this morning, I almost gave myself permission to be lazy, to play computer games, watch TV, and do some planning for my racehorse (that I've never met or seen race in person). I've allowed myself to just 'be' really, and as hard and painful as it's been, I've shown myself that I can do it.

[LittleLionMan]

I get that, but to be fair, I'm not searching through the rest of the forum, or googling anything. I've been stricter with myself about them other things, so what you're seeing is the grand sum of my anxiety discussion for the day.

I do get your point though.

[ankietyjoe]

I'm not sure I agree with Pulisa about logging out of the forum just yet. I don't think you're self sufficient enough to do better off without than with advice. I think it's when people start asking for reassurance about things they already know about that forum posting becomes an issue. I think right now you are battling with the transition from checking and analysing into acceptance and mindfulness. However, I think the point she is making is absolutely sound.

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, I'm trying my hardest to approach it differently.

I also make big assumptions. I couldn't sleep last night, which is very unlike me, and I've just assumed today is going to be horrific, instead of being able to just shrug a bad nights sleep off for what it is and crack on.

Trying to gather the motivation through this anxiety for my run this morning is proving very difficult!
I've just lay down, and can feel the anxiety surging through me. I'm just filled with dread for how I can cope with the rest of the day.

[LittleLionMan]

I just got myself settled for 20 mins, doing some work and watching TV, and now we have a power cut, and I'm panicking again! How much bad luck does one guy want!? 😂

[ankietyjoe]

Try and file it under 'first world problems' ;)

[LittleLionMan]

Haha, I know. I was trying to get myself into something to focus on, as I was struggling badly, and just as I seemed to settle in to it a little, bang, power out. It's been a bit of a baptism of fire though, as no power means far less distractions available. I've given myself a few, but have rationalised and then accepted the situation though, but it has been a challenge.

A car has smashed into the electric post outside my house. The power still isn't back on now.

Stuff you take for granted, hey!

[LittleLionMan]

I emailed my psychologist my usual updates over the weekend, and this was her response...

'Good morning,

This anxiety is so awful for you. I strongly feel that you are at the point where you need to try some medication. I have seen so many people with such high levels of anxiety hugely improve.'

If I don't want to take medication, which I desperately don't want to, and this is her only real suggestion going forward, is it time I found a new treatment?

We have done EMDR sessions and all sorts, and for some reason it's just made me feel worse. If after 2 months, and the best part of £3000, her only suggestion is take some pills, isn't that a bit of a cop out?

[Fishmanpa]

We have done EMDR sessions and all sorts, and for some reason it's just made me feel worse. If after 2 months, and the best part of £3000, her only suggestion is take some pills, isn't that a bit of a cop out?

Think of it like putting water on a fire and meds are the water. Its easier to manage burning embers than it is a raging inferno.

Positive thoughts

[LittleLionMan]

Think of it like putting water on a fire and meds are the water. Its easier to manage burning embers than it is a raging inferno.

Positive thoughts

Yeah, I get it, I've just always been against taking meds for it because I've tried them in the past and they have made me either considerably worse, given me awful side effects, or have numbed me too much.

I've always been OK to feel the pain and know it's there, rather than mask it, if that makes sense. I've always believed I can handle it, and was always confident I would eventually overcome it without meds, but now I'm not so sure I can.

[pulisa]

I think you would need to be careful with the start up dosage of meds, particularly the SSRIs which notoriously heighten anxiety to begin with.

You may be able to get better value from your therapy if meds actually lower your anxiety a degree or two. This is probably why your psychologist has suggested it. You can be too anxious to process anything you are told during these sessions which is such a shame and a complete waste of your time and money.

Do you actually rate her as a psychologist though? Does she "get" you and tailor the therapy to your needs?

[LittleLionMan]

I think you would need to be careful with the start up dosage of meds, particularly the SSRIs which notoriously heighten anxiety to begin with.

You may be able to get better value from your therapy if meds actually lower your anxiety a degree or two. This is probably why your psychologist has suggested it. You can be too anxious to process anything you are told during these sessions which is such a shame and a complete waste of your time and money.

Do you actually rate her as a psychologist though? Does she "get" you and tailor the therapy to your needs?
It's that start up anxiety that's scaring me, and the fact that I simply don't want to take them.

She's an odd one, because she is truly brutal. Honestly doesn't care how high my anxiety gets, because she knows it won't hurt me. That's fine, but she isn't the one that has to live with it.

When we first started, she had my driving to the shop, and actually going in to buy something (with her following behind because of COVID), which I hadn't done in months, all pretty calmly, and it seemed to be going well, and then it all just crashed around me, and I don't know why.

She thinks I try too hard, as in I take everything to the extreme, so I'm already preparing myself to face anxiety and let thoughts pass before there is anything to handle, which obviously prepares me for battle and inevitably brings anxiety.

[pulisa]

Managing anxiety isn't about battling anxiety as you know. It means acknowledging it and accepting it and letting it pass through you without reacting with panic.

Is she actually qualified in EMDR therapy? To me you would be far too anxious to benefit from it at the moment. She probably sees meds as a way of you being able to access EMDR safely?

I think you do try too hard but we have tried to tell you this. Take out the battle imagery and try to downplay anxiety into a non-threatening, somewhat boring inconvenience which just happens to be present but is like a tedious house guest ie not a permanent fixture?

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, she doesn't want me doing anything to try and intervene when I'm anxious, not breathing exercises, talking myself down or anything. Just tolerate and don't react. Which would be fine, but the anxiety never goes. I honestly can't remember the last time I wasn't anxious to some degree, so it's a hard ask to just tolerate and not react from the second I wake up until the second I go to bed.

She's a doctor of clinical psychology, and costs me £180 a session, and I'm having 2 a week, so she's not a cheap option, but it was down to me wanting to really tackle it that made me go for the best I could find around here.

I think she just wants me to be able to push the limits of my anxiety, and obviously I can't do that effectively whilst I'm in this state, or it would be easier if I wasn't quite this anxious.

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, she doesn't want me doing anything to try and intervene when I'm anxious, not breathing exercises, talking myself down or anything. Just tolerate and don't react. Which would be fine, but the anxiety never goes. I honestly can't remember the last time I wasn't anxious to some degree, so it's a hard ask to just tolerate and not react from the second I wake up until the second I go to bed.

She's a doctor of clinical psychology, and costs me £180 a session, and I'm having 2 a week, so she's not a cheap option, but it was down to me wanting to really tackle it that made me go for the best I could find around here.

I think she just wants me to be able to push the limits of my anxiety, and obviously I can't do that effectively whilst I'm in this state, or it would be easier if I wasn't quite this anxious.
She's just been, we chatted about my past, and tried some EMDR, I feel worse and am trembling in fear now, oddly feel panicky when my heart rate is only 60. She's just brings so much emotion out of me, and I'm scared about how I will be for the rest of the day.

Worried me that she couldn't give me a clear strategy for handling these constant thoughts, apart from 'they can't hurt you', 'you aren't going crazy' and 'this is just anxiety'.
I hoped for a clear plan, and I still haven't got one.

[MartinSmith]

What are the patterns of your sleep ? It affects directly on mind and thinking. It was very difficult for me to enjoy a good sleep, and it also affected other areas of my life. So I decided to focus on enhancing my sleep quality, that was a big challenge for me, Aromatherapy helped me much in calming my mind and body. I tried that from https://sportsinside.co.uk/ because my focus was full on quality. So my suggestion is to focus on your sleep first, then all the problems will be solved gradually.

[LittleLionMan]

Hi Martin,

My sleep isn't bad, as in the hours I get.
I wear a Fitbit, and the feedback on my sleep is always OK, apart from I do go to bed later than I should. The average time asleep from the past few weeks are all around 7 hours, so not a huge problem, but anxiety hits within seconds of me waking, and doesn't really ease all day.

If anything, I feel a tad better at night, because being free to go to sleep is like an escape for me.

[ankietyjoe]

Your sleep is fine, I rarely get more than 5-6 hours of sleep, and 7 is plenty.

It's completely normal to have immediate anxiety on waking in the morning as cortisol is high.

Using the water/fire analogy for meds is massively over simplifying things, and doesn't apply to most people's experience with medication.

You're still in the 'OMG I HAVE TO ESCAPE FROM ANXIETY' phase, and that is the only problem you are facing.

[pulisa]

Yes I agree..You are terrified of feeling anxious and are on constant high alert. I understand it because it happens to me too but there's no point trying to fight it because it just makes things worse and you are giving the anxious feelings significance.

[ankietyjoe]

Going back to the fire analogy. Is it better to constantly damp a burning fire, or just stop feeding it fuel?





I think she just wants me to be able to push the limits of my anxiety, and obviously I can't do that effectively whilst I'm in this state, or it would be easier if I wasn't quite this anxious.

I would also like to add that this is never, ever going to work. It's very common for people to think that if their anxiety eased off a bit then things would be easier. Anxiety only ever gets worse while you are playing the running game. You're still in the 'nobody understands' mode to a certain extent. We all understand, and most of us have had it even worse than you have it now, which is why we know how to cope with it and/or beat it. Every time you give the mental 'yeah but', you are reinforcing the idea that you cannot cope and cannot recover.

[LittleLionMan]

Hi both,

That note about lowering my anxiety so I could do more was merely what I think my psychologist was getting at.

I am definitely sitting with anxiety a lot better now. I've effectively been in what I call 'shut down mode' since our session. My heart rate is really low, I'm so tired I can't function, I can't concentrate on anything, except when panic come roaring up, but I've just been sitting trying (and failing) to do my work without intervention. I need to go for my run really, as I missed it this morning with my appointment, but I'm just watching these sensations whilst I work.

It does feel like I'm the only one who has ever felt like this, you're right, even though I know in whatever form, you have all had it as bad.

It's resisting the urge to 'do something' about how I'm feeling, or go get lost in overthinking how I'm feeling. I know a run would probably change how I'm feeling now, but I would like to let this pass before I try and 'correct it'.

EDIT: Hating every second, but I know it's the right thing to do.

[ankietyjoe]

It's resisting the urge to 'do something' about how I'm feeling, or go get lost in overthinking how I'm feeling. I know a run would probably change how I'm feeling now, but I would like to let this pass before I try and 'correct it'.

This is to be applauded. Once you master this, you master anxiety*

*You will never, ever be free of anxiety, but if it doesn't bother you, does it matter?


In some respects this is like trying to not become sexually aroused when you're a teenager. At that age, once triggered....you know. Does thinking about it or focusing on it make it go away?

There are autonomous bodily functions that you simply have no control over, but understanding that those functions also act as feedback loops is a valuable information asset. You can 'get triggered' and have no control over it, but you have 100% control over what you do and what you think about in the short amount of time after the trigger that's significant. Going back to mastering anxiety, anxiety isn't your problem here (and I know that's hard to see right now). The problem is your mental call to arms that exacerbates and compounds the anxiety to unbearable levels.

[LittleLionMan]

Yes I agree..You are terrified of feeling anxious and are on constant high alert. I understand it because it happens to me too but there's no point trying to fight it because it just makes things worse and you are giving the anxious feelings significance.
This is basically what it boils down to, yes. Terrified of being anxious, and terrified of any thought, situation or feeling that might lead me there.

[LittleLionMan]

Your sleep is fine, I rarely get more than 5-6 hours of sleep, and 7 is plenty.

It's completely normal to have immediate anxiety on waking in the morning as cortisol is high.

Using the water/fire analogy for meds is massively over simplifying things, and doesn't apply to most people's experience with medication.

You're still in the 'OMG I HAVE TO ESCAPE FROM ANXIETY' phase, and that is the only problem you are facing.
My sleep is normally fine, I'm not worried about that, but is that right that cortisol is higher in the morning, and probably why my mornings are unbearable?

I tend to lie in bed for half an hour trying to muster the courage to get going, and then I walk around feeling sick and panicking for an hour before something else gets my attention... not the best way to start the day!

I think this is where my psychologist wants me to run first thing, and break the pattern of effectively avoiding the day.

[pulisa]

How do you manage to lie in bed with unbearable anxiety? I couldn't bear to do that. Why not get up and go for a run first thing? Make it part of your new routine? You need something to occupy you instead of ruminating/panicking.

[LittleLionMan]

How do you manage to lie in bed with unbearable anxiety? I couldn't bear to do that. Why not get up and go for a run first thing? Make it part of your new routine? You need something to occupy you instead of ruminating/panicking.
I don't know really, I kind of get myself in a place where I'm oblivious to the world, and haven't really got my day started. I am just full of dread, but the physical symptoms don't kick in. It's the second I get up that I start feeling sick, etc.

I do go for a run every morning, but it's normally at about 9:30/10, after I have placed all my bets and that (I like the horse racing).

[ankietyjoe]

It's widely known that cortisol is high in the mornings. It's part of the autonomous system to wake you up in the morning. You're just sensitive to it whereas 'normal' people don't even register it. There's nothing sinister behind it, it's the same for everybody. The sooner you get up and walk around a bit, the sooner your levels start to normalise.

But once again, just get on with it etc. Don't focus on it, don't question 'why'. It just is, get up and get dressed.

[LittleLionMan]

It's widely known that cortisol is high in the mornings. It's part of the autonomous system to wake you up in the morning. You're just sensitive to it whereas 'normal' people don't even register it. There's nothing sinister behind it, it's the same for everybody. The sooner you get up and walk around a bit, the sooner your levels start to normalise.

But once again, just get on with it etc. Don't focus on it, don't question 'why'. It just is, get up and get dressed.
I will keep that in mind. Thanks.

I'm just trying to survive tonight at the moment, I don't think I've ever been this bad in my life.

[pulisa]

I don't know really, I kind of get myself in a place where I'm oblivious to the world, and haven't really got my day started. I am just full of dread, but the physical symptoms don't kick in. It's the second I get up that I start feeling sick, etc.

I do go for a run every morning, but it's normally at about 9:30/10, after I have placed all my bets and that (I like the horse racing).

So you have sufficient concentration to study the odds and place your bets? How do you manage that?

[LittleLionMan]

I don't, I own a racehorse, and the stable boy is a professional gambler who sends me tips through.

[LittleLionMan]

I will keep that in mind. Thanks.

I'm just trying to survive tonight at the moment, I don't think I've ever been this bad in my life.
I really challenged myself to push through this last night, it was truly awful, but I sat and watched the game with my brother, forced a kebab down me, and the anxiety did reduce by the time the game finished.

I feel more capable of doing that at night, as I know I get to go to sleep, and don't have to deal with the resulting anxiety for long, but in the day, I can't seem to find that same strength as I worry I will have to deal with the resulting anxiety for longer... does that make sense? Is that a normal attitude?

[ankietyjoe]

I can't seem to find that same strength as I worry I will have to deal with the resulting anxiety for longer... does that make sense? Is that a normal attitude?


Yes, relatively normal for anxiety sufferers.

The really, really important thing to realise here though is that thinking that way is actually causing more anxiety than you would ever experience not thinking that way. You are effectively creating the monster.

Just focus on what you did actually do (reality) successfully rather than what might happen (abstract imaginary scenario). You watched a game, had a kebab, wasn't too bad. THAT is your reality. That's what you focus on and tell yourself.

[LittleLionMan]

I tried to focus on that, as by the end of the game, I did feel a lot less anxious. Little reward for efforts hopefully.

I get that, and it's almost like I'm scared to let go of the anxious feeling, like I feel better when I'm a tiny bit anxious (like I keep myself a little anxious so I don't spiral into the unknown), and have a tiny bit of worry, but not too much so it makes me panic. It's almost like the absence of anxiety in my mind makes me panicky... I know that sounds mental, but it's how I feel. Like I don't know how to feel if I'm not anxious, and it almost gives me a lost, derealised feeling.

I'm just a big mixed up mess at the moment, I can't even explain it properly.

[ankietyjoe]

You're in full judgement mode. You are reacting negatively to any stimulus good or bad.

Again, acceptance, meditation, mindfulness etc. All these things are the opposite of what you are doing now.

You don't need to explain it, and in fact doing so is just reliving it anyway. We've all been there.


Just keep practicing NOT doing the things that aren't working for you now, and eventually it will ease up.

[LittleLionMan]

You're in full judgement mode. You are reacting negatively to any stimulus good or bad.

Again, acceptance, meditation, mindfulness etc. All these things are the opposite of what you are doing now.

You don't need to explain it, and in fact doing so is just reliving it anyway. We've all been there.


Just keep practicing NOT doing the things that aren't working for you now, and eventually it will ease up.
Yeah, that's just how I'm feeling right now. It's like nothingness, totally numb, I can't concentrate on anything, it's like time is standing still, and I'm just 'existing'.

I've just been trying to do my work and tolerating it, but it's terrifying me. I've never had this before, and I'm worried something terrible is happening to me.

Rational me would say I've got a bit 'spaced out' from my run, started dreading the day, and focussed on it, and not let go... anxious me is telling me I'm going mental.

[ankietyjoe]

Yeah, that's just how I'm feeling right now. It's like nothingness, totally numb, I can't concentrate on anything, it's like time is standing still, and I'm just 'existing'.

I've just been trying to do my work and tolerating it, but it's terrifying me. I've never had this before, and I'm worried something terrible is happening to me.

Rational me would say I've got a bit 'spaced out' from my run, started dreading the day, and focussed on it, and not let go... anxious me is telling me I'm going mental.


Read what you just wrote and give it a mental 'blah blah blah'. It's all just internal fearmongering. You ARE in a shitty place and something terrible IS happening to you, in terms of how you're feeling, but that's all it is...feeling.

Try and learn to get bored of monitoring it all the time.

For whatever reason I woke up at 2.45am last night riddled with adrenaline and had the anxiety 'fizz'. I got up, had a pee, got some water, went back to bed. I haven't even given it a thought today until just now. The only difference between you and me is practice. You will get there too, so try and stop catastrophising sensation.

[LittleLionMan]

Read what you just wrote and give it a mental 'blah blah blah'. It's all just internal fearmongering. You ARE in a shitty place and something terrible IS happening to you, in terms of how you're feeling, but that's all it is...feeling.

Try and learn to get bored of monitoring it all the time.

For whatever reason I woke up at 2.45am last night riddled with adrenaline and had the anxiety 'fizz'. I got up, had a pee, got some water, went back to bed. I haven't even given it a thought today until just now. The only difference between you and me is practice. You will get there too, so try and stop catastrophising sensation.
I get it all clear in my head what I should be doing, I just struggle to carry it out when it becomes so cognitive and I can't think straight.

I'll keep trying.

[pulisa]

It IS catastrophising sensation, PHR. Nothing more..but you have to believe it to make progress and you don't seem ready to do that yet. You can continue with your therapy sessions but it all boils down to that concept.

[LittleLionMan]

It IS catastrophising sensation, PHR. Nothing more..but you have to believe it to make progress and you don't seem ready to do that yet. You can continue with your therapy sessions but it all boils down to that concept.
I'm not disagreeing, at all.

I'm just being honest, that understanding that, and still being able to hold on to and apply that concept in the midst of the worst feelings I've personally ever felt, isn't an easy thing to do, but I'm sure it will take practice, and I'm trying.

[pulisa]

No one has said it would be easy but it is all about practice and some days will be better than others. Good sleep and good nutrition will help and also avoiding low blood sugar so regular snacks/meals (bananas are easy to eat and to carry around with you).

Are you a famous racehorse owner?:D

[LittleLionMan]

I didn't expect it to be easy, but to be honest, I didn't realise anxiety could get this bad either. I've had bad times before, but I've never had anything like this. It's the relentlessness of it that makes it so difficult, and I feel like I've forgotten who I actually am now.

No, I'm not a famous racehorse owner. 😂
I just own a couple with a friend. It's good fun when I'm OK.

[LittleLionMan]

My thoughts at the moment are massively about time. How long I have until I can go to bed, when I can start to attack the day and not have too long to deal with the resulting anxiety. It's almost like I'm frozen, waiting for time to pass before I can let go a bit a take a few perceived 'risks'. My mind freezes and it feels like time stands still and I start to panic.

[ankietyjoe]

Just another thing to practice ignoring and getting on with your day.

Again, completely normal and nothing to worry about.

If you have the time to ponder these things, you have the time to meditate. In fact, this is the ideal time (no pun) to meditate.

[LittleLionMan]

Just another thing to practice ignoring and getting on with your day.

Again, completely normal and nothing to worry about.

If you have the time to ponder these things, you have the time to meditate. In fact, this is the ideal time (no pun) to meditate.
It's a bloody minefield.
I have been making the most of this attitude and pushing my arse off when I start to think I can cope in the evening, hoping the attitude would filter down to earlier in the day. I just can't face days in the morning at the moment.

I'm also considering changing therapists, as she simply doesn't care about my symptoms, and doesn't even pretend to. I get that attitude and understand that they are harmless and are my problem, but she can't keep making me worse, turn up, do some EMDR and bugger off again, leaving me to pick up the pieces for the rest of the week.
She offers no support whatsoever.

Long read, but if you're interested, this is her latest advice to me...

Food for thought

Core Beliefs

If I’m not perfect then I’m useless
I’m disgusting
I’m in danger

Consider that these are beliefs that you have held for many years and are very ingrained. Your day to day anxiety serves to ‘prove’ these to yourself. I want you to move your focus away from zooming in on the current symptoms of panic and anxiety and try and focus on the deeper level of core beliefs. Notice when these core beliefs are coming in to play, jot them down and work through a rational process of evidence for / against and a balanced thought. Let’s see if we can try and chip away at this deeper level.

It is important to remember that the mechanism which maintains anxiety and panic attacks are subtly different.

The misinterpretation of the ultimate catastrophic result of a panic attack is what maintains the cycle of panic. For you, the misinterpretation is that ‘I am going to go mad’ ‘I am turning in to a lunatic’. This is the ultimate fear of these panic attacks. The idea of testing these misinterpretations out by not deliberately avoiding having a panic attack is to test out these misinterpretations. In terms of testing these out, I think we have very clearly seen that over the last two weeks you have consistently told me that your panic attacks are worse than ever. However, despite having numerous severe panic attacks, you are very clearly not ‘going mad’, not a ‘lunatic’ and not going ‘mental’. So in terms of the specific misinterpretation that we are focussing on, then yes, we have disproved that.

You are continuing to have regular and severe anxiety and panic. This is extremely distressing for you. These are all common symptoms of anxiety and they are classic panic attacks. There is nothing out of the ordinary about them. They are ‘textbook’ symptoms. We have focussed on breaking the maintenance of the panic attacks. This approach is the recommended treatment for panic attacks and has the best evidence base. I think your perception of the extent of your panic attacks, at times are further misinterpretations. I have numerous emails from you stating that this panic ‘is the worst one yet’. They cant all be the worst, which proves to us that this is another misinterpretation - a thought that is not accurate.

At this point I think there are a number of areas to focus on:

1. The voice that you are speaking to yourself in about the panic attacks. It is critical and cruel. Please write down how you are treating yourself about your difficulties and then go through the process of developing a compassionate alternative. What would you say to a friend?
2. Notice when you are having thoughts around being ‘disgusting’ or ‘useless’ and apply the same compassionate voice.
3. When having a panic attack deliberately remind yourself that this is a very common experience, which is a cluster of physical and cognitive symptoms which do no harm and do not indicate that somebody is going mad.
4. Develop a clear mantra that ‘a thought is just a thought’, it doesn’t mean that it is true.
5. Allow yourself to have positive experiences and use the techniques described above, ‘just because I’m having these thoughts, it doesn’t make it true’ let those thoughts pass.
6. Good nutrition helps anxiety
7. Exercise helps anxiety
8. It’s not surprising that at times you get really emotional about your difficulties. It’s really really tough for you. Being upset about it, is not a negative, it shows that you are processing your difficult experiences.

[ankietyjoe]

It's a bloody minefield.


No, it's not.


I just can't face days in the morning at the moment.




You don't have a choice, you are going to face it in one way or another.




The misinterpretation of the ultimate catastrophic result of a panic attack is what maintains the cycle of panic. For you, the misinterpretation is that ‘I am going to go mad’ ‘I am turning in to a lunatic’. This is the ultimate fear of these panic attacks. The idea of testing these misinterpretations out by not deliberately avoiding having a panic attack is to test out these misinterpretations. In terms of testing these out, I think we have very clearly seen that over the last two weeks you have consistently told me that your panic attacks are worse than ever. However, despite having numerous severe panic attacks, you are very clearly not ‘going mad’, not a ‘lunatic’ and not going ‘mental’. So in terms of the specific misinterpretation that we are focussing on, then yes, we have disproved that.

You are continuing to have regular and severe anxiety and panic. This is extremely distressing for you. These are all common symptoms of anxiety and they are classic panic attacks. There is nothing out of the ordinary about them. They are ‘textbook’ symptoms. We have focussed on breaking the maintenance of the panic attacks. This approach is the recommended treatment for panic attacks and has the best evidence base. I think your perception of the extent of your panic attacks, at times are further misinterpretations. I have numerous emails from you stating that this panic ‘is the worst one yet’. They cant all be the worst, which proves to us that this is another misinterpretation - a thought that is not accurate.



These parts are extremely important to consider. Every person that suffers with anxiety thinks theirs is the worst ever, and their experience is getting worse and worse. It isn't. It's your reaction that's getting worse. The bodily response is the same as it always was.

In terms of your therapist 'not caring' about your symptoms, what exactly do you expect her to do? Do you want a cuddle and 'there there'? It's not her job to care about what you are going through, and in some respects you just have to take it and stop feeling sorry for yourself, right? However, I would say that she is possibly going too far down the line of analysis, which is confusing you. All you need (and this is another important point) right now is to break the catastrophic reaction cycle you have. All the other BS can be saved for later. You cannot analyse your way out of anxiety. It will never, ever work.

My perception is that you are clinging on to behavioral patterns because you still don't trust the idea of just letting it happen. You think that by letting it happen it will just get worse and worse and worse and blah blah blah etc etc (this again is common). But, if your anxiety is indeed getting worse and worse (it's not....), then what you are doing clearly isn't working anyway? But the 8 points she made although true, don't need to be analysed. That is why you are perceiving a minefield. If I were you I would suggest to her that it has been suggested to you that you ONLY deal with basic CBT style simplistic behavioral changes in the short term, and leave the analysis for another time in the future. Without trying to be too cynical, a private therapist will be keen on analysis because there is no end to it, there never can be. You need to guide her into the treatment that you need, which is not endless talking about feelings.

[LittleLionMan]

I will suggest it tomorrow.

In simple terms, this is what I feel would best serve me (correct me if I'm wrong):

I feel like I need to learn to not get wrapped up and dragged along with my minds stories... and then follow it all the way until I'm trapped and panic. This includes over analysing everything as to how much it will raise my anxiety, and the effect the panic will have, and imagining how bad the panic will get.

I need to plan things into my day, fill my day with all the things in my life, and learn to get on with these things, carrying any anxiety with me if necessary, instead of being scared to try.

I need to handle any anxiety without reassurance, as I email her too much, I talk to mates too right much and post on here too much.

I need to stop reading about ideas, possible solutions and hoping for an 'ah-ha' moment that isn't going to come.

I need to stop feeling defeated at the first sign that my anxiety is getting worse, and get out of the mindset that it will just get worse and worse until I simply go crazy or can't get back out.

I need to get more sleep, do my running every morning, and eat better, generally taking care of myself better, including my appearance, so I feel a bit more like myself.

I need to do all this without trying too hard, and putting enormous amounts of pressure on myself, not beating myself up if something doesn't go perfectly, and adopting a more sympathetic attitude towards myself.

[ankietyjoe]

I will suggest it tomorrow.

In simple terms, this is what I feel would best serve me (correct me if I'm wrong):

I feel like I need to learn to not get wrapped up and dragged along with my minds stories... and then follow it all the way until I'm trapped and panic. This includes over analysing everything as to how much it will raise my anxiety, and the effect the panic will have, and imagining how bad the panic will get. - 100%

I need to plan things into my day, fill my day with all the things in my life, and learn to get on with these things, carrying any anxiety with me if necessary, instead of being scared to try. - Yes, but not the immediate goal.

I need to handle any anxiety without reassurance, as I email her too much, I talk to mates too right much and post on here too much. - Balance, not exclusion.

I need to stop reading about ideas, possible solutions and hoping for an 'ah-ha' moment that isn't going to come. 100%, there is no a-ha moment.

I need to stop feeling defeated at the first sign that my anxiety is getting worse, and get out of the mindset that it will just get worse and worse until I simply go crazy or can't get back out. - Anxiety doesn't work this way. There is no correlation with going crazy, and eventually you will run out of adrenaline.

I need to get more sleep, do my running every morning, and eat better, generally taking care of myself better, including my appearance, so I feel a bit more like myself. - Yes, the basics. Even if you do nothing, wash your stinking pits and brush your teeth. Be ready for the day, even if you can't do much that day.

I need to do all this without trying too hard, and putting enormous amounts of pressure on myself, not beating myself up if something doesn't go perfectly, and adopting a more sympathetic attitude towards myself. - Yes, but also give yourself a mental slap when you start whining about how bad you feel. Anxiety is hard work, but not complicated work.



But also remember, don't over intellectualise all of this. It's not fvcking chess, it's just a bit of adrenaline (no really, that's all it is) in the wrong scenario. Recovering from anxiety is like learning to juggle. You can know HOW to do it, but your muscle memory just isn't there yet. Just keep practicing the basics and when it doesn't work 100% just get on with it again. Recovery is cyclical, not linear. Some days you will feel like crap, just brush it off mentally. It doesn't matter.

[LittleLionMan]

That's key for me.

I've turned it into some big puzzle that I need solve, and that puzzle is constantly occupying my mind.

[pulisa]

It really doesn't matter and you have to believe that. An "oh well" attitude as opposed to one of panic and frustration. No need to analyse. Press on and don't overthink any situation. Glide through the minutes instead of counting them down until the end of the day. What will be will be..

Remember the basics and leave the analytical stuff behind-you don't need it.

[LittleLionMan]

I really will try.

I also really appreciate all the advice.

I don't know anyone else who does, or has, struggled anywhere near this degree you see, so it's becomes easy to believe I'm the only one, have a unique problem, and that no one else understands.

[pulisa]

Oh but they do..Your situation is by no means unique or extreme. I'm not going to tell you about my experiences but I do empathise, understand and relate to what you are describing. You can get better, PHR and get back to living without fear. Or at least living with fear which is manageable.

[LittleLionMan]

Thank you, and I truly hope so.

[ankietyjoe]

Yes Pulisa is right, your case isn't even close to being extreme yet, and it doesn't have to get there either.

The key thing to remember here is that if your anxiety gets worse (and remember, this is a perception of sensation getting worse, not the actual anxiety) then it's YOU making it happen. It's the reaction to the reaction to the reaction etc. The upside of this is that recovery is 100% within your control.

For whatever reason my anxiety is up this week. Both Pulisa and I have extremely stressful home lives for different reasons so 'triggers' are always on, but anxiety doesn't rule us any more. I can feel the stirrings of adrenaline and anxiety, but I rarely think about it for more than 5 seconds, and I never let it take over. If I sat down and paid attention to what I was feeling, I would just feel worse, so I ignore it. That's where you need to get to as well, and the only barrier between where you are and where I am is time and practice, there is NOTHING else to this.

Try and remember that the reason your therapist doesn't care about your symptoms is because they genuinely don't mean anything. It's not a medical issue that needs a medical intervention. It's just a dude stuck in a feedback loop of adrenaline spiking.

[pulisa]

Absolutely, Joe. There IS nothing else to this..and anxiety can be managed on a long term basis with belief that this is the case. My anxiety has been up this week too but I know why and I know how to bring things back to a manageable level which I have done. It might seem an impossible thing to do for you at the moment but you will get there once you accept that anxiety can't kill you or cause permanent physical damage. I'm still standing after decades of being flooded with adrenaline almost constantly. My heart's fine and as far as I'm aware I'm not falling apart organically..so apart from being pretty thin I'm think I'm doing ok. You are too..and once you're better you can enjoy being a racehorse owner again and raking in the winnings!

[LittleLionMan]

Thanks both, and I respect how well you have both done in your own struggles.

It hasn't started well, but I'm hoping for a better day today, and that I plan to discuss the approach with my psychologist.

The frustrating thing for me is that my panic attacks don't come out of the blue unless I feel trapped, it's the slow burning, build up that bothers me, where I'm stuck at like an 8/10 for hours, that bothers me as much as the 10/10 panic! I will work harder to just go with it.

Thanks again.

[LittleLionMan]

Just had my session with my therapist, no EMDR.
She actually raised that point herself.

Trying to explain this whole 'figuring anxiety out' spiral I have constantly going on in my mind is exhausting, and it just leads me to be more confused. The whole 'the thought creates the panic, but I can't stop thoughts' question is what makes me feel vulnerable to panic 24/7, but I can't explain it very well.

She didn't really tell me anything new, apart from she wants me to use worry schedules again, and try and distract / let the thoughts pass when they come up. This is my biggest challenge right now, so will be interesting how it progresses.

[LittleLionMan]

Just trying to explain it to her has confused me even more, and I've been blasted by panic for the last half hour. I have to find a way to let this thinking habit go, as it's just a constant cycle.

[pulisa]

Blasted by panic? Maybe trying to explain things to her has caused you anxiety, nothing more?

Not sure I would welcome a "worry schedule". What's the point? Why not keep things as simple as possible?

[ankietyjoe]

You're still stuck in the analysis/reaction/thought cycle.

I would err away from your therapists ideas of journaling and recording. It's just adding to your analytical approach to something that doesn't require analysis. Again, Pulisa is right and your therapist is not providing you with the advice I personally think will work for you.

Everything you need to know about recovery is contained in this thread.

[LittleLionMan]

I just meant that the process of trying to explain it to her, and then her not really giving me any answers caused me to to start figuring it out for myself again.

My sessions with her used to be very productive, we were driving to the shop (first time in months), trying to tackle my anxiety that way, and I felt like I could see progress and I don't really get why the progress has collapsed, or why she doesn't have any idea what's made me worse.

The worry schedule works for actual worries, but not for my mindless mulling over of the where, what and why's of anxiety. Then again, actual worries seem to help me because it gives me something tangible to fret over and the anxiety reduces for that time.

The anxiety stayed really really high for ages, but I just sat with it, playing my Xbox, and even had my nephew with me for half an hour whilst I was like it (I have previously refused to have him, as I don't feel capable whilst I'm like that). It's calmed down a touch now, and I'm just tired and really on edge and keyed up now.

[ankietyjoe]

The anxiety stayed really really high for ages, but I just sat with it, playing my Xbox, and even had my nephew with me for half an hour whilst I was like it (I have previously refused to have him, as I don't feel capable whilst I'm like that). It's calmed down a touch now, and I'm just tired and really on edge and keyed up now.


Well done.

Just keep doing that and eventually you'll see some real progress.

[LittleLionMan]

I hope so mate.

Your advice doesn't fall on deaf ears, I guarantee I really am trying over here. 👍

[pulisa]

Don't try too hard though...Just sit with the anxiety,don't force things. Let it flow through you and accept it for what it is..and what it is not. You are not under threat and you are not in danger..in reality.

[LittleLionMan]

I’ve got that vile thing now, where you almost take control of your breathing now, can’t stop taking huge breaths, and can’t stop.

I haven’t had this for years, something has definitely got under my skin today!

[ankietyjoe]

It's just another (very common) part of it, and another thing to be ignored as best you can.

[LittleLionMan]

I got myself feeling OK earlier after my run. My sister in law started asking questions about anxiety, and now I've been panicking for the last hour and a half. It takes bugger all to set me off!

[pulisa]

It doesn't matter, PHR. You're easily triggered at the moment but it doesn't matter. Just accept it and let it go?

[LittleLionMan]

Yep, I tried and sat with it for hours.

Then had a shower and weighed myself, and I've lost another 4lb. 6' tall and 10st. That's a huge thing I HAVE to put right!

What I don't get is, I can be on the edge of panic, and I mean feeling dreadful (like now!) and my heart rate is 67. Surely if I'm panicking, my heart rate should be elevated?

[pulisa]

I wouldn't know. I don't monitor my heart rate. Why do you?

I've also lost weight but it's inevitable when your body is in panic mode.

[LittleLionMan]

I'm not worried the weight loss means something, I just mean it's significant of how bad I am.

I wear a Fitbit for my training, so tend to know what it is. Again, that doesn't worry me, it's just an odd one.

[pulisa]

If you see yourself as "bad" it will just increase your perceived reason to panic.

Do you really need to wear a Fitbit? They are such a trigger and a complete waste of time.

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, I know what you mean, it has just motivated me to eat two full plates of Chinese food though. Haha. I don't know I just mean that it shows how I'm really not eating anywhere near enough for how anxious I am all day long, and how I'm running every day. We knew not eating was a big problem anyway though, it's just brought it home a bit.

I can actually turn the Fitbit watch to just display the time so I can't just glance at my heart rate, but it will still track my runs. Could be the answer.

[pulisa]

Good idea. Anything to reduce the concept of monitoring your body.

Not sure about the Chinese food though but at least you have given yourself some fuel to counteract the adrenaline rush. If you're running every day you need decent nutrition.

[LittleLionMan]

Good idea. Anything to reduce the concept of monitoring your body.

Not sure about the Chinese food though but at least you have given yourself some fuel to counteract the adrenaline rush. If you're running every day you need decent nutrition.
Yeah, it was round a table with my family, and my aunt and uncle. I forced myself through the panic to do it, almost faking it, and felt my mind go off on one, and it's still like it now. I haven't got up yet, scared to if anything.
These are the sorts of feelings I find it very hard to describe. I'm not panicking yet, but it feels like I'm going to lose control almost.

[LittleLionMan]

This is what I mean when I say the symptoms are cognitive, I'm effectively winding myself up evaluating how I am, what's going to happen to me, and how bad this is going to get, and I can't stop. I feel totally out of control now, and am edging ever closer to panic. Frustrating and scary.

[ankietyjoe]

This is what I mean when I say the symptoms are cognitive, I'm effectively winding myself up evaluating how I am, what's going to happen to me, and how bad this is going to get, and I can't stop. I feel totally out of control now, and am edging ever closer to panic. Frustrating and scary.

Yeah we know, you have mentioned it many times. It's just how it is right now.

At least you're recognising it's you doing it to you.

This thing where you're running every day AND under eating has to stop though. I'm not sure you realise just how significant effectively being in starvation mode is in terms of adrenal issues. Starvation mode doesn't happen immediately, but after several days or weeks of this way of existing, you are going to be on high alert.

[LittleLionMan]

I know, and I think I'm just venting because I'm fed up with it all.

I know the food thing, and I am trying to eat when I can. I couldn't do without my runs, so I need to do the eating thing, it's just hard, as I never feel like eating, and often have panic attacks after. It's hard to actually get myself going in the day, let alone eat,

[pulisa]

Do you actually have much to do in the day or do you have too much time on your hands? Sounds to me as if you need to think of others in your family rather than just yourself..

[LittleLionMan]

Do you actually have much to do in the day or do you have too much time on your hands? Sounds to me as if you need to think of others in your family rather than just yourself..
I have plenty of stuff to do, I just can't bring myself to do it. I have two big jobs on my desk that I simply can't muster the concentration to start, I have family around me nearly constantly and yes, I do feel for my family and friends because I know how hard this is on them too... they just keep pleading with me to take my medication, and keep telling me that I can't go on like this. They also comment on my weight and how ill I look.

[ankietyjoe]

You say 'I can't' a lot.

You can, you just don't want to. That's an important distinction.

One thing you HAVE to do is get over 2000 cals in per day. I have mentioned a few times about tracking what you already eat which you have avoided. I would strongly suggest you track at least your calories so you can get a base line.

Venting is fine, but don't let it meander into whining. If you say you can't, you probably won't.

You say you have panic attacks after eating, but you're having them anyway so just get on with it. One of the reasons you're having panic attacks after eating is because your diet is terrible (as far as I can tell) and you are eating high fat, high carb meals and they will trigger a response in anxious people. Your digestion kicks into gear, your heart rate speeds up and then your highly alert state see's the heart rate spike as danger.

I would suggest adding one or preferably two healthy shakes into your daily plan if the idea of food is still difficult.

What would you do if you absolutely knew you would feel better if you were eating enough? Would you eat then?

[LittleLionMan]

Yes, and I came to that conclusion last night. Seeing the weight on the scales really frightened me.

I ate 2 plates of Chinese food last night, and I've just eaten 2 Belvita soft bake things and a bag of crisps which I have logged, that's 500 calories, and we are having a BBQ later, so I will see what I can do there. I need to teach myself that eating doesn't necessarily equal panic and actually try and start to enjoy food again.

It's all about me being scared to make myself worse for the day, that's why I feel better eating (and doing anything) later on, as I don't have long to deal with 'the effects'. Same goes for absolutely anything, and I basically hibernate all day until it gets late enough to feel safe. This is the pattern every day at the minute.

[ankietyjoe]

As I have said before, you cannot run from anxiety. You are backing yourself into a corner you'll find more and more difficult to get out of. You think it can't get worse, but it can get a lot worse. That's not meant to scare you, because you are 100% control of at least stopping this in it's tracks for now.

Also, Chinese food and Belvita's are complete shite. You need some nutrition dude.


There are two things I would recommend to eat earlier in the day -


1) Low/No carb. This will negate the anxiety reaction. Try eating some bacon (about 6 streaky rashers) and 3 eggs cooked in butter. That will give you about 550 cals and no carbs.

2) The Shake, this is one I have 4-5 times a week -

250ml Coconut Milk (any milk is fine)
40g whole oats
100g frozen berries
30g Almond Butter
1 scoop whey protein (any flavour, Bulk Powders is good/cheap)
10-20g hemp seeds
5g Engavita nutrtional yeast

The shake will give you close to 600 cals and shouldn't trigger too much.


Those two alone on a daily basis will get you half way to where you need to be AND be extremely nutritious. If you have a big healthy meal later in the day it doesn't matter if you have a bit of crap for afters, and you'll be nudging 2k cals a day which you really must get to. Even then you'll be unlikely to be putting weight on, but at least your CNS won't be freaking out about nutrition. On top of that, a couple of glasses of fruit juice a day would provide all your vitamin C. Not ideal because of the sugar, but at this point that's the least of your worries. Two average glasses will give you another 300 cals too.

There are ways to do this without only eating horrendously crap food.

[LittleLionMan]

I thought the soft bakes would be good because they are slow release carbs, so might fuel me for the day, and it was just better than nothing, they are basically breakfast cereal in a bar, and they are quite high in calories for how easy they are to eat.
I feel panicky now after eating just them though.

I know what you mean, it's just trying to actually do it. I tried making myself something decent the other day, but half way through, I was so anxious I stopped cooking as the act of cooking and eating after tipped me over.

It's carbs that generally contribute to weight gain though isn't it, so I thought that would be good, or is it just because that triggers panic? My heart rate doesn't make me panic, it's the general having more energy that gets me, whenever I'm 'energised', it makes me feel like my anxiety just has more energy, that's why I hibernate basically to stop raising myself up at all. Just hiding.

[ankietyjoe]

Breakfast cereal bar is another way of saying biscuit, period. They are 20% sugar, and best avoided.

Carbs contribute to weight gain when people are eating normally, yes. What I'm suggesting isn't to avoid carbs, it's to avoid the carb 'rush'. Just because you don't get triggered by the heart rate increase, doesn't mean your CNS isn't responding to the fast hit of energy you get from heavily processed foods like cereal bars. Yes, the oats in them are slow release, but the sugar ain't! They are confectionary and are taking away far more than they are giving you.

This is something you just have to push through. If you're going to be anxious eating, so be it.

If you're anxious cooking then just stop for a second, take a reality check and just get on with it. There's nothing more 'normal' than eating food, it's your overreaction to it that's the problem, not the food.

[LittleLionMan]

That's what I'm doing now. Having an awful panic attack and am in a really bad way. Panicking from eating is the one thing I have to get over. Hopefully the more I eat, the easier it will get, and the less of a severe effect it will have.

My family all want to sit down and watch the Villa game in half an hour, and I'm desperate to be able to do that with them, although I think this game may be contributing to the nerves. It's a biggie.

[ankietyjoe]

Hopefully the more I eat, the easier it will get, and the less of a severe effect it will have.



It's not just an isolated activity. Overall, the more you get your mind used to doing 'normal' things again the less severe your anxiety reactions will be.

As for football (not something I care about) it's normal to be nervous about such things. Just do it. So what if you feel a bit nervous or panicky? Again, you can't run from anxiety. It does not work. It never has for a single anxiety sufferer, and it never will.

[LittleLionMan]

I know, and I really am trying, I'm just struggling to do it. I'm too fearful of the feeling, and can't seem to reduce that fear. I'll push on.

Thanks.

[ankietyjoe]

Does your therapist do pure CBT?

What area do you live in?

[LittleLionMan]

I live in Shrewsbury, Shropshire.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/counselling/dr-beatrice-cox-oswestry-eng/422193

[ankietyjoe]

Ok, too far for me to ask about alternative recommendations.

All I can suggest in terms of your therapy is that you push her to move away from the analysis (both Pulisa and I agree here) as I don't think it's beneficial in any way. CBT is really a 10 session and you're done kind of thing. You have a very simple and very predictable form of anxiety (even though it doesn't feel like it is) and I'm not 100% convinced she's doing the right things for you right now.

Of course, YOU make this decision based on how YOU feel. I'm just offering a different perspective on what she's doing. What you are describing of your sessions was not my experience of CBT.

[LittleLionMan]

We moved away from CBT because I wasn't calm enough to correct my thoughts. EMDR (outside of the sessions) doesn't require me to do any thinking, that's why she leaned to that.

I'm sat watching the game now having a blazing panic.

[ankietyjoe]

We moved away from CBT because I wasn't calm enough to correct my thoughts.

Ok, here's my take on this. CBT isn't about succeeding during the session. CBT is about learning a set of tools that you take away and apply to your life. Perhaps your time with her is done now. Up to you to make that decision.





I'm sat watching the game now having a blazing panic.

Breathe deeply and just say 'fvck you anxiety' under your breath for the next 90 minutes. Or however long a game of football lasts these days :yesyes:

[LittleLionMan]

Haha, there's half an hour left.

My mind is just darting everywhere. I'm not even sure what's happening at this point!

It's a very anxiety provoking game anyway, just search #AVFC on Twitter. It's just obviously 100x worse for folk like me.

It will be an achievement for me to make it through this game and sit with all my family like this though. I am seriously in a bad way.

[pulisa]

Remember that you can have positive and negative adrenaline rushes and healthy excitement can trigger panic attacks..I used to have panic attacks watching Palace play at Selhurst Park..Hard to believe with their current team but it happened!

Did Villa stay up? I caught the Grealish goal a short while ago but don't know the final table..

[pulisa]

Haha, there's half an hour left.

My mind is just darting everywhere. I'm not even sure what's happening at this point!

It's a very anxiety provoking game anyway, just search #AVFC on Twitter. It's just obviously 100x worse for folk like me.

It will be an achievement for me to make it through this game and sit with all my family like this though. I am seriously in a bad way.

In fact you're not. Have you had your thyroid levels checked recently?

[pulisa]

Just seen the FT result!! Great news for Villa...Expect mega panic attacks all evening though!!:D

And maybe you could say they were all in a good cause?!!

[ankietyjoe]

I am seriously in a bad way.

Well, are you really?

You are feeling in a bad way, but you haven't been shot or anything. Try and remember the reality of this, you're fine.

[LittleLionMan]

Nerves are in pieces.

Brilliant result, but didn't do me much good! Haha!

Expecting plenty of panic attacks, I've just taken my adrenaline levels on a fair old journey, and it feels that way too! Exhausting!

[pulisa]

Yes but...you have stayed up! Odds on for relegation next season? Will Grealish stay?

[LittleLionMan]

When I do things like that, celebrate, and I've just had a BBQ, ran around with my nephew, all normal stuff, it almost feels like I'm being reckless and out of control, it's very odd, and has made me panic again.

I think Grealish will go, but our owners are loaded, hopefully they get the chequebook out and this is our last relegation battle for a while!

[ankietyjoe]

When I do things like that, celebrate, and I've just had a BBQ, ran around with my nephew, all normal stuff, it almost feels like I'm being reckless and out of control, it's very odd, and has made me panic again.



But next time you do it (soon), it will be more normalised.

[pulisa]

Just seen the Villa post-match celebrations!! Hope no one was incubating Covid!! Interesting take on social distancing!

[LittleLionMan]

That what I kept telling myself Joe. It feels odd because it is odd for me, but it's OK.

Haha, I know. Brilliant scenes. I don't drink anymore, but would of loved to of been relaxed and had a cold one today.

[LittleLionMan]

After pushing on yesterday, feeling OK for half an hour last night, and sleeping for 8 1/2 hours, I actually felt good today for an hour, although I tried to keep pushing on today, and might of overdone it, as I could feel anxiety pulling me back in, (which it now seriously has, big time!) but I had an hour that really wasn't too bad!

[ankietyjoe]

Well, great!

Like I said before, it'll be up and down. No need to analyse!

[pulisa]

Do you need to feel anxiety in order to feel "right", PHR?

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, I tried to take the positives.

Do I need anxiety to feel right? I hope not, I want to feel well without it. My name is Phil by the way.

[LittleLionMan]

I had about 2 hours of panic last night in bed, and am horrific this morning. I think I started challenging myself to just 'be' and it all went absolutely wrong.
My mind is an expert of winding me up and backing me into a corner. I sat with it, didn't get up, and just let the panic rage through me, but it just makes me more frightened, not less. I'm all over the place today, in a really bad way.

I've just had a row with my Mum about taking meds, and now my panic is 10/10 roaring. I can't keep coping with this.

[pulisa]

Why not?

Why not just get up when you find yourself in bed panicking? Get up and do something to occupy yourself?

"Horrific"? "Panic roaring"?

[LittleLionMan]

I tried to let the anxiety pass whilst I was relaxing, as not being able to just 'be', is a huge problem for me. I hoped that if I started to learn to tolerate it in them moments maybe it would reduce over time for me in them scenarios, but it backfired. I feel less anxious on the treadmill, or working than I do sitting quietly, so it's something I need to learn to address.

Yeah, horrific, roaring.

[BlueIris]

In that case, you need to reframe your anxiety.

Try thinking of it as an itch, rather than some sort of a monster. An itch can be incredibly annoying and make it difficult to concentrate, but (obscure HA stuff aside), an itch can't harm you.

[LittleLionMan]

In that case, you need to reframe your anxiety.

Try thinking of it as an itch, rather than some sort of a monster. An itch can be incredibly annoying and make it difficult to concentrate, but (obscure HA stuff aside), an itch can't harm you.
This is what I was trying to do, I was lying there, could feel myself relaxing and simultaneously my anxiety coming up, and tried to just sit with it.
It came from a place of trying to be brave and trying to do the right thing, it just got out of hand.

[BlueIris]

It's okay to grab your phone or put the TV on; there's nothing wrong with distracting yourself.

[LittleLionMan]

I just wanted to see if I could unwind.
It's carried on to today, every muscles just feels tense and like I could panic again at any minute. I am going to try and get my head into some work now.
This has been an awful day though, which is disappointing after actually feeling OK for a couple of hours yesterday.

[ankietyjoe]

Yeah, horrific, roaring.

I watched my misses bleeding to death during the birth of our second child and have been looking after her ever since as she has truly horrific PTSD.

I've also seen people shot next to me and had the gun pointed at me afterwards.

Maybe you need some perspective.

As far as 'I can't keep coping with this', again....you don't have a choice. It ain't going anywhere soon.

[LittleLionMan]

I watched my misses bleeding to death during the birth of our second child and have been looking after her ever since as she has truly horrific PTSD.

I've also seen people shot next to me and had the gun pointed at me afterwards.

Maybe you need some perspective.

As far as 'I can't keep coping with this', again....you don't have a choice. It ain't going anywhere soon.
Jesus fella! That is perspective!

[LittleLionMan]

I kind of fell into a weird derealised sensation last night, and although it's not as bad as I've had before, my mind is questioning EVERYTHING, and I panic every time, and I feel like I'm losing control.

It's almost like I'm stuck in the tail end of a panic attack, you know when your mind is pulling itself back together.

[LittleLionMan]

When everyone is able to describe these symptoms as harmless, tolerable, and almost trivial, it's makes me wonder why mine are so bad and why everyone obviously must cope with them so much better than me? It makes me think something is seriously wrong with me.

[pulisa]

It's a question of being used to the sensations/symptoms and seeing them for what they are..and not being afraid of them.

You've been feeling like this for a long time and nothing really bad has happened in terms of physical collapse. You see your symptoms as "horrific" "so bad" etc etc so you are going to think that something is seriously wrong with you.

I know it sounds as if we are trivialising this but you do have to because the aim is to normalise and minimise anxiety symptoms until they just become mildly irritating and then gradually fade..I understand that it's hard to grasp this concept when you feel constantly "under attack". Would you prefer people to sympathise with you?

[LittleLionMan]

Not really, I think I'm just confused as to how people are able to be so dismissive of their own symptoms when I constantly feel like this.

I think I'm just fed up and feeling a bit defeated at the moment, constantly trying to figure out if I'm doing the right things, and what I should be doing for the best.

[LittleLionMan]

Just had my session with my psychologist. It was all about how I'm making a big deal of, worrying about, and catastrophising, what are effectively 'normal' sensations. Interesting, and I know it's a problem, but it's easier said than done to keep my attention off them.

[LittleLionMan]

I'm now having a full on panic attack trying to get my head around it. Kind of black and white that I MUST NOT consider how I'm feeling. My brain is a nightmare.

[pulisa]

I'm now having a full on panic attack trying to get my head around it. Kind of black and white that I MUST NOT consider how I'm feeling. My brain is a nightmare.

No it isn't a nightmare. She's working on normalising common anxiety symptoms not making a big deal of them.

[LittleLionMan]

It's kind of symbolic that an hour discussing where my attention is and my mind, has caused me to worry about where my attention is and worry about my mind.

I'm in a really bad way at the minute, heads gone on a tangent, and I don't know what to do. Hopefully it passes soon.

[LittleLionMan]

I terrified of thinking about how I'm feeling, and am constantly on alert in case my mind goes down that path. I'm hoping this passes, and I get the gist of the subtle nature of what was intended. This is my problem, everything becomes my primary focus. This panic attack is horrible.

[pulisa]

You shouldn't be spending the entire hour focusing on your obsession with your anxiety though. Surely she has suggested ways to divert your thoughts away from how bad you feel?

[LittleLionMan]

Yeah, we spoke about pushing myself to bring more of what I have in my life, to the forefront, so that how I feel becomes less important, but I can't keep myself totally occupied 24/7, and the second my mind wanders, panic comes. It's just an odd situation that I don't fully understand.

[pulisa]

You don't need to fully understand it, Phil. Just the basics. Too much "knowledge" leads to over analysis and rumination which just keeps your anxiety at the forefront of your daily life and makes it the most important thing.

Who would you like to see at Villa next season? What about Zaha?

[camsie]

Hi I'm new. I joined in the hope I would get some answers. I am having symptoms that I just can't believe are anxiety. Weird breathing. I too feel worse when I try to relax. When I sit down to watch tv it feels worse and I want to get up and and do stuff as it feels more comfortable. I also rely a lot on exercise. It really helps me to feel better afterwards and it is nice to just have an hour or two when I feel more relaxed after. I also feel less worried at work. It is hard. What I am learning from this is that there is no quick fix. Recovery is really slow. I know I am feeling better than I was 5 months ago but I would have hoped to have recovered more. Anyway just wanted to say I feel like you do about relaxation and exercise.

[LittleLionMan]

You don't need to fully understand it, Phil. Just the basics. Too much "knowledge" leads to over analysis and rumination which just keeps your anxiety at the forefront of your daily life and makes it the most important thing.

Who would you like to see at Villa next season? What about Zaha?
I know, it's just hard to stop when my attention turns inwards. I just can't wait for today to be over now.

Haha, I have a few targets in mind, Benrahma being the top one, Eze, Sarr, Buendia... I think the owners will splash the cash big time.

[LittleLionMan]

Hi I'm new. I joined in the hope I would get some answers. I am having symptoms that I just can't believe are anxiety. Weird breathing. I too feel worse when I try to relax. When I sit down to watch tv it feels worse and I want to get up and and do stuff as it feels more comfortable. I also rely a lot on exercise. It really helps me to feel better afterwards and it is nice to just have an hour or two when I feel more relaxed after. I also feel less worried at work. It is hard. What I am learning from this is that there is no quick fix. Recovery is really slow. I know I am feeling better than I was 5 months ago but I would have hoped to have recovered more. Anyway just wanted to say I feel like you do about relaxation and exercise.
That's pretty much the same as me, but I don't even go out to work. I can totally sympathise anyway, it's horrible isn't it.

[pulisa]

I can't relax to order at all.I'd rather get up and get on with things rather than lie in bed and ruminate. Fortunately I'm a carer for my 2 adult children so I have plenty to do and little time to analyse how I feel..It's not an option and this helps me greatly.
I've been hospitalised twice so I'm not just dabbling in anxiety issues and doling out platitudes.

Keeping busy helps me hugely. I appreciate that it's not good to run yourself into the ground 24/7 but being positively occupied and being able to concentrate on other things is how I get by. There will be good and bad times but knowing the basics re anxiety management and getting a good sleep and food regime established all helps. Sometimes you just need to get through the hours and it's tough but not a desperate situation. You do get through those hours somehow no matter how distressing they are.

[LittleLionMan]

I can't relax to order at all.I'd rather get up and get on with things rather than lie in bed and ruminate. Fortunately I'm a carer for my 2 adult children so I have plenty to do and little time to analyse how I feel..It's not an option and this helps me greatly.
I've been hospitalised twice so I'm not just dabbling in anxiety issues and doling out platitudes.

Keeping busy helps me hugely. I appreciate that it's not good to run yourself into the ground 24/7 but being positively occupied and being able to concentrate on other things is how I get by. There will be good and bad times but knowing the basics re anxiety management and getting a good sleep and food regime established all helps. Sometimes you just need to get through the hours and it's tough but not a desperate situation. You do get through those hours somehow no matter how distressing they are.
That's takes huge strength, so fair play to you.
I didn't actually know you could be hospitalised for anxiety though? These are them hours, my mind questions everything when my anxiety is sky high! I've just forced myself to go outside and be with my family and then panicked because my nephew fed the chickens some pigs in blankets, and they wouldn't eat it, and I went all derealised figuring out how they knew what to eat! I'm still severely derealised now. Then played catch with him when I couldn't even feel my feet on the ground, questioning if I'm sane or not.

[pulisa]

Rating your anxiety as "sky high" is all relative. I knew that you'd question the hospitalisation bit but thought I'd risk it as I didn't want you to think I knew nothing about severe anxiety. I'm not going to elaborate on severe anxiety but I think you're going to get through this distressing and confusing period in your life but you just have to believe that you're not going insane and that you need to stop obsessing about how bad and "unreal" you feel.

[LittleLionMan]

I think this is the first time I've been truly worried for myself and how this is going to end, purely because I'm simply not coping, and don't even feel like me anymore. The bits of humour and positivity that I used to have are gone.
The loss of myself is the hardest part, and the feeling that I have absolutely no control. It's honestly got to a level that I never thought it could reach.

There is a big party here today, which I could really of done without, and I wonder if the dread of this has contributed to the escalation of my anxiety over the last few days. So I have to try and get through that, although it's most likely I will resort to hiding in my room.

[LittleLionMan]

I'm getting myself in such a state about this baby shower. It starts at 3, there are about 30 people coming, and I dreading it! Trying to remind myself that I've done testing things before, and nothing has ever happened to me.

I just want to fast forward to 8:15 when one of my horses is running, and I'm focussing on that as a distraction.