View Full Version : Has freedom of expression gone to far?
I know this question might be controversial to some and I don't in any way mean to cause offence to anyone, but particularly owing to the current political situation in the USA where the social media giants have now barred Trump, where they previously seemed to have an 'anything goes' attitude, and seemed indifferent to misinformation being spread across the globe willy-nilly, does anyone think free expression has now gone too far and used as a lazy 'get out of jail' card for a lot of misdeeds?
Don't get me wrong. I still consider free speech/expression by far the lesser of the two evils compared to full-on totalitarian dictatorship, but surely lines need to be drawn somewhere?
ankietyjoe
17-01-21, 11:35
Trump was using social media as a 'call to arms'. He was inciting hate speech and whilst in power he was threatening to shut down any platform that opposed him.
In this case, his stupid fat fvcking mouth needed shutting. Freedom of speech is a double edged sword, and censorship isn't always a negative thing.
Trump was using social media as a 'call to arms'. He was inciting hate speech and whilst in power he was threatening to shut down any platform that opposed him.
In this case, his stupid fat fvcking mouth needed shutting. Freedom of speech is a double edged sword, and censorship isn't always a negative thing.
I agree with what you say there, and I think the current Trump affair is probably the final straw, coupled with all the pandemic-related BS that has been circulating across the Web over the past year.
The social media giants should have taken their heads out of the sand and attempted to curtail this misinformation madness ages ago IMO, even long before 2016!
Nevertheless, YouTube have seemingly got tougher over more recent years regarding some of the content posted on there, unlike during its earlier years, virtually anything was permissible on there, such as videos of terrorism, riots, beheadings, happy slapping, vandalism, domestics, child abuse, animal abuse, you name it, all with relative impunity, and available to view freely by all and sundry, plus the comments section underneath often littered with endless F, C, and N-bombs!
A new report charted a 73% decline in misinformation on Twitter and other social media sites since Trump and many of his allies were banned. That should tell you something. If you've noticed, the media talks far less about him as well since the ban as they don't have that constant feed of drama all day. Best thing that could have happened IMO.
FMP
A new report charted a 73% decline in misinformation on Twitter and other social media sites since Trump and many of his allies were banned. That should tell you something. If you've noticed, the media talks far less about him as well since the ban as they don't have that constant feed of drama all day. Best thing that could have happened IMO.
FMP
Well that's reassuring to know FMP.
Hopefully once all the current Covid-related restrictions finally come to an end and the pandemic finally starts to peter out (which I'm sure it will as this year wears on), people will start living life for the real once again and not get bogged down in relatively trivial matters and 'fictional' events just because they're trending on social media!
MyNameIsTerry
17-01-21, 20:58
Thought it was all Putin's fault? :whistles:
Balance. There is Trump but there is his equal opposite too. Make sure you censor both and leave your personal bias out of it.
Speech comes with consequences in the UK and we don't have an Amendment to try to justify it.
Has it gone too far? I think you are many years too late on that one. But then we never really had it anyway. The internet complicated matters as lawmakers have always been so slow to extend real world laws to the Wild West internet with different lawmakers seeing a different challenge; different societies so different levels of normal real life censorship and control.
I know this question might be controversial to some and I don't in any way mean to cause offence to anyone, but particularly owing to the current political situation in the USA where the social media giants have now barred Trump, where they previously seemed to have an 'anything goes' attitude, and seemed indifferent to misinformation being spread across the globe willy-nilly, does anyone think free expression has now gone too far and used as a lazy 'get out of jail' card for a lot of misdeeds?
Re Trump: the man used his social media platform to incite violence and people died.
"With great power comes great responsibility."
Trump has millions of followers...
Don't get me wrong. I still consider free speech/expression by far the lesser of the two evils compared to full-on totalitarian dictatorship, but surely lines need to be drawn somewhere?
Problem is that people demonstrate their right to free speech but forget to act responsibly and respectfully. Sometimes it can be 'heat of the moment' stuff, but many people are just R soles. :shrug:
WiredIncorrectly
18-01-21, 16:13
The premise behind freedom of speech is to be allowed to say whatever you like. This should always be a fundamental human right. But, if you say something that upsets people you've got to be prepared for the consequences of those actions. This is no different to free will. In this world you can literally do whatever you want. But there are consequences to those actions if you break the law etc.
My 2 cents :shades:
ankietyjoe
18-01-21, 18:34
The premise behind freedom of speech is to be allowed to say whatever you like. This should always be a fundamental human right. But, if you say something that upsets people you've got to be prepared for the consequences of those actions. This is no different to free will. In this world you can literally do whatever you want. But there are consequences to those actions if you break the law etc.
There are also consequences if you don't break the law. The way that social media works is very dangerous for the free speech brigade. You only have to look at the absurd theories about vaccinations and lizard rapists to understand that people can be hoodwinked en masse to believe complete fvcking garbage.
WiredIncorrectly
18-01-21, 20:31
There are also consequences if you don't break the law. The way that social media works is very dangerous for the free speech brigade. You only have to look at the absurd theories about vaccinations and lizard rapists to understand that people can be hoodwinked en masse to believe complete fvcking garbage.
Yeah this is a problem, but I think it demonstrates the gullibility of those people. I think society will learn over time that 90% of it is a load of crap.
I've got an SMB7 now, so maybe my first video I could expose what these people do and how it's purely for profit. The likes of David Icke. Urgh. The Coffeezilla channel on Youtube exposes a lot of stuff. Good channel. My soundcard doesn't have the gain power though, have to normalize everything.
ankietyjoe
18-01-21, 22:23
My soundcard doesn't have the gain power though, have to normalize everything.
Just get a cloudlifter bruh. You'll be pulling up the noise floor by normalising. DBX286 would be useful as an alternative.
WiredIncorrectly
18-01-21, 23:10
Just get a cloudlifter bruh. You'll be pulling up the noise floor by normalising. DBX286 would be useful as an alternative.
I did look for a cloudlifter but they don't seem in stock. The dynamite looks good, but now I've seen the DBX286 I think I'm going with that. Thanks :)
MyNameIsTerry
19-01-21, 07:03
The premise behind freedom of speech is to be allowed to say whatever you like. This should always be a fundamental human right. But, if you say something that upsets people you've got to be prepared for the consequences of those actions. This is no different to free will. In this world you can literally do whatever you want. But there are consequences to those actions if you break the law etc.
My 2 cents :shades:
Life used to be much simpler before the internet. Freedom of speech = possible broken nose. :biggrin:
WiredIncorrectly
19-01-21, 08:53
Life used to be much simpler before the internet. Freedom of speech = possible broken nose. :biggrin:
Agreed :roflmao:
Problem is that people demonstrate their right to free speech but forget to act responsibly and respectfully.
Yep... There's a big difference between free speech and speaking/acting like a jackass ;)
Positive thoughts
Yeah, I find myself getting a tad hot under the collar reading comments on youtube lately. Something makes me wonder if this will every stop, as a child I was taught if you have nothing good to say ... say nothing.
I hate to break up this free speech hating love fest...of course leftwing violent speech is righteous right. Please show me a Trump incitement to violence video. BTW Lenso I'm not offended by your post - it's free speech friend.
Audio below:
https://www.ksgf.com/episode/audio-montage-of-democrats-calling-for-violence/
Please show me a Trump incitement to violence video.
Here you go! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht20eDYmLXU&ab_channel=BloombergQuicktake%3ANow)
FMP
Thank you for that FMP. So you posted something by Trump claiming it's incitement and I posted something of a bunch of people on your side claiming incitement. So why aren't any of the folks I posted banned from anything? Certainly a famous person saying I want to blow up the White House is incitement. I personally have always wondered why left-wing social media sites (FB, Twitter, Instagram...) don't ban all conservatives simply for being conservatives. Well they finally have. That's the real reason. That's evident by the folks/groups on the left they allow to remain on their sites while banning others on the right. I personally have not once used any of them BTW. Never trusted em.
Carlson lays it out pretty good in this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-YCVKiDJ4
"Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavours have not yet begun. My fellow Americans for our movement, for our children and for our beloved country and I say this, despite all that’s happened, the best is yet to come."
Yeah, that's you leaving the White House you mad pipe! :roflmao:
Thank you for that FMP. So you posted something by Trump claiming it's incitement and I posted something of a bunch of people on your side claiming incitement. So why aren't any of the folks I posted banned from anything? Certainly a famous person saying I want to blow up the White House is incitement. I personally have always wondered why left-wing social media sites (FB, Twitter, Instagram...) don't ban all conservatives simply for being conservatives. Well they finally have. That's the real reason. That's evident by the folks/groups on the left they allow to remain on their sites while banning others on the right. I personally have not once used any of them BTW. Never trusted em.
Carlson lays it out pretty good in this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-YCVKiDJ4
Sorry N, but I would truly appreciate you not infiltrating my thread with your endless hard-right, pro-Trumpite propaganda, please take it elsewhere thank you very much.
No free speech in a lot of countries I have been in LB we are lucky to live where we live.
Hope you are keeping well.
ankietyjoe
29-01-21, 11:02
Thank you for that FMP. So you posted something by Trump claiming it's incitement and I posted something of a bunch of people on your side claiming incitement. So why aren't any of the folks I posted banned from anything? Certainly a famous person saying I want to blow up the White House is incitement. I personally have always wondered why left-wing social media sites (FB, Twitter, Instagram...) don't ban all conservatives simply for being conservatives. Well they finally have. That's the real reason. That's evident by the folks/groups on the left they allow to remain on their sites while banning others on the right. I personally have not once used any of them BTW. Never trusted em.
Carlson lays it out pretty good in this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-YCVKiDJ4
Your Fuhrer lost. He's gone. Get over it.
The snowflakes won. Deal with it.
Sorry N, but I would truly appreciate you not infiltrating my thread with your endless hard-right, pro-Trumpite propaganda, please take it elsewhere thank you very much.
So you're not in favor of free speech?
Your Fuhrer lost. He's gone. Get over it.
The snowflakes won. Deal with it.
I better go hold a puppy 🤣
Sorry N, but I would truly appreciate you not infiltrating my thread with your endless hard-right, pro-Trumpite propaganda, please take it elsewhere thank you very much.
Infiltrating? That implies you're trying to keep people out. I'm not hard right at all. Nor do I promote propaganda. Nice try.
So you're not in favor of free speech?
Yes I am in favour of free speech/expression, but within reason.
Plus I fully acknowledge your rights to be a Trump supporter, but it's the constant whining about electoral fraud that I (and many others) find tedious and tiresome, despite widespread evidence to the contrary.
Let's face it, I'm still disappointed that the UK Labour party lost our most recent GE in December 2019, but I accepted it and don't keep harping on about said election being 'stolen' by the Conservatives. I still do believe they won mostly for the wrong reasons, due to endless scaremongering by both the MSM and social media, especially concerning Jeremy Corbyn's alleged misdeeds, plus of course voter apathy and general complacency being in the mix.
However, they would have no doubt been slaughtered by now over this pandemic, had they won back then!
Your Fuhrer lost. He's gone. Get over it.
The snowflakes won. Deal with it.
Wow, you beat me to it, AJ!
No free speech in a lot of countries I have been in LB we are lucky to live where we live.
Hope you are keeping well.
Yes we are lucky, but it's those who abuse free expression and use it as a get-out clause to justify their spreading of hate and misinformation that I find problematic.
But I agree it's definitely a grey area.
Yes I am in favour of free speech/expression, but within reason.
Plus I fully acknowledge your rights to be a Trump supporter, but it's the constant whining about electoral fraud that I (and many others) find tedious and tiresome, despite widespread evidence to the contrary.
Let's face it, I'm still disappointed that the UK Labour party lost our most recent GE in December 2019, but I accepted it and don't keep harping on about said election being 'stolen' by the Conservatives. I still do believe they won mostly for the wrong reasons, due to endless scaremongering by both the MSM and social media, especially concerning Jeremy Corbyn's alleged misdeeds, plus of course voter apathy and general complacency being in the mix.
However, they would have no doubt been slaughtered by now over this pandemic, had they won back then!
Lol... constant whining about election fraud? What are you talking about? I think I mentioned it once and only once on this site and that was in response to someone's comment.
Lol... constant whining about election fraud? What are you talking about? I think I mentioned it once and only once on this site and that was in response to someone's comment.
OK OK.
I think I'll disown this thread for once and for all, especially as it's now starting to cause angst and division, plus all the drama surrounding the recent US Election now being shoehorned into it.
See you!!
Wow, you beat me to it, AJ!
So ankity and lenso believe Donald Trump to be the equivalent of the Nazi leader Adolph Hitler...and by extension me I guess.
That tells me you know nothing about either man nor history.
Don't you find it ironic that you're kicking me off this thread you started about free speech because I'm peacefully voicing my opinion?
BTW lenso did you watch the video I posted here? It's pretty good.
Peace out✌️
ankietyjoe
29-01-21, 13:09
So you're not in favor of free speech?
I never said that, I never implied it.
I'm not going to be drawn into another endless non-conversation with somebody that wants to labour a point that few else here really care about.
WiredIncorrectly
29-01-21, 13:12
I never said that, I never implied it.
I'm not going to be drawn into another endless non-conversation with somebody that wants to labour a point that few else here really care about.
DBX286 on route :yesyes: Having a built in limiter and compressor is awesome! Your recommendation made me get that. Shame you can't get a referral fee he he.
ankietyjoe
29-01-21, 14:40
DBX286 on route :yesyes: Having a built in limiter and compressor is awesome! Your recommendation made me get that. Shame you can't get a referral fee he he.
https://i.gifer.com/Njp.gif
So ankity and lenso believe Donald Trump to be the equivalent of the Nazi leader Adolph Hitler...and by extension me I guess.
That tells me you know nothing about either man nor history.
Don't you find it ironic that you're kicking me off this thread you started about free speech because I'm peacefully voicing my opinion?
BTW lenso did you watch the video I posted here? It's pretty good.
Peace out✌️
I know I said earlier I was disowning this thread but I am sorry to say that you're totally out of order and indeed libellous inferring that me and AJ believe Trump and yourself are the 'equivalent' of Hitler, when we never even said such a thing in the first place!
From my own personal point of view, and no doubt that of many others on here, comparing Trump to Hitler is like comparing apples with oranges, as Hitler and his politics were a product of the time, and in turn Trump and his politics some 80-odd years later are a product of their respective time.
Just demonstrates you are lying through your own teeth casting such false accusations against myself and AJ likening Trump (and yourself) to Hitler, which we simply haven't done!
Anyway, I'm now officially gone from this thread for good!
Bye bye.
ankietyjoe
29-01-21, 16:40
It's common for threads like this to go this way. There is a persistent implication that anybody that disagrees with a right wing nut job (Trump, not anybody here) is by definition and extreme left wing nut job.
'So if you say X you mean Y'. etc.
No, if I say X, I mean X.
Perhaps it's because they're so used to listening to half truths and misleading hyperbole, they assume that everything that everybody speaks is just bull.
Oh, and that other golden nugget -
'If you don't agree with me, it's because you don't know about X or Y'.
Your Fuhrer lost. He's gone. Get over it.
The snowflakes won. Deal with it.
Ok, ankity said to me..."your fuhrer lost"
And lenso said..."you beat me to it"
Please explain to me how this isn't comparing me to a Nazi and Trump to Adolph Hitler?
I'm not the one being disingenuous guys.
WiredIncorrectly
29-01-21, 18:08
https://i.gifer.com/Njp.gif
Cracked me up in stitches omg. What a .gif. You beat Terry's .gifs with that one.
Cracked me up in stitches omg. What a .gif. You beat Terry's .gifs with that one.
Dodge Ball! What a great game! Good to see it's still allowed. The classic move was to lob a ball way up in the air and when the kid invariably looked up at it you nailed him! Never failed 😁
The only difference was when we played there were 50 balls and 50 kids.
ankietyjoe
29-01-21, 18:38
Ok, ankity said to me..."your fuhrer lost"
And lenso said..."you beat me to it"
Please explain to me how this isn't comparing me to a Nazi and Trump to Adolph Hitler?
I'm not the one being disingenuous guys.
Fuhrer means 'tyrannical leader'. Trump is a self proclaimed German.
You're the one jumping to conclusions.
WiredIncorrectly
29-01-21, 18:48
Dodge Ball! What a great game! Good to see it's still allowed. The classic move was to lob a ball way up in the air and when the kid invariably looked up at it you nailed him! Never failed
We used to play it at school. I always ended up on the brunt end of it, I was a crap throw ha ha. The girls played with a softball, but the boys had to play with a basketball. Our PE teacher was so strict I was scared to tell him I forgot my kit.
MyNameIsTerry
30-01-21, 05:34
Fuhrer means 'tyrannical leader'. Trump is a self proclaimed German.
You're the one jumping to conclusions.
Trouble is, it's associated with guess who? And there have been 4 years of comparisons between Trump and him. Plenty of people associate Trump, and his supporters (even the swing voters), with fascism.
Probably best just to use the common English wording in future rather than the one pretty much only heard (in my lifetime) to address one historical figure? When used in jest it's a reference to that figure in my experience so it can be perceived that way.
MyNameIsTerry
30-01-21, 05:39
Yes I am in favour of free speech/expression, but within reason.
Plus I fully acknowledge your rights to be a Trump supporter, but it's the constant whining about electoral fraud that I (and many others) find tedious and tiresome, despite widespread evidence to the contrary.
Let's face it, I'm still disappointed that the UK Labour party lost our most recent GE in December 2019, but I accepted it and don't keep harping on about said election being 'stolen' by the Conservatives. I still do believe they won mostly for the wrong reasons, due to endless scaremongering by both the MSM and social media, especially concerning Jeremy Corbyn's alleged misdeeds, plus of course voter apathy and general complacency being in the mix.
However, they would have no doubt been slaughtered by now over this pandemic, had they won back then!
Do you really think it was just about Corbyn? It really wasn't. Whilst the Tories might still have won, and it might have been under May, that 80 seat majority was delivered due to the biggest public vote. The EU referendum. Labour leadership were all pro EU, tried to force a 2nd ref without evidence anyone wanted one (the GE clearly demonstrated that), no clear Brexit policy and no one trusted them. They were seem as a party willing to override the earlier referendum.
If you think the media were the main reason how do you account for the 2016 referendum? Did you believe everyone had changed to Remain when even the polls didn't show a clear indication of this. Those polls swung to Remain as May stuffed it all up. They started favouring Boris once she went.
MyNameIsTerry
30-01-21, 05:42
It's common for threads like this to go this way. There is a persistent implication that anybody that disagrees with a right wing nut job (Trump, not anybody here) is by definition and extreme left wing nut job.
'So if you say X you mean Y'. etc.
No, if I say X, I mean X.
Perhaps it's because they're so used to listening to half truths and misleading hyperbole, they assume that everything that everybody speaks is just bull.
Oh, and that other golden nugget -
'If you don't agree with me, it's because you don't know about X or Y'.
Doesn't that one apply both ways? Isn't it why the hard left & right are the same?
We used to play it at school. I always ended up on the brunt end of it, I was a crap throw ha ha. The girls played with a softball, but the boys had to play with a basketball. Our PE teacher was so strict I was scared to tell him I forgot my kit.
I can affirm that I was (am) shit at most every sport and had (have) a pathological fear of the communal showers. :scared15:
Tried hockey - took a girl's front tooth out first lesson. Oops!
Netball? Nope.
I almost drowned in swimming due to me not being able to verbally express that I had only done a width (and that was with me practically hanging onto the pole) so I ended up being pushed into the deep end by the stand-in teacher and it was the case that I was much better at drowning than swimming! One of the girls had to jump in and rescue me. (Awks) :blush:
Eventually found my forte in running.. turns out that severe anxiety and a starter pistol equals first place in the 100 meter sprint! :roflmao:
The other sport I am (was) surprisingly decent at is air rifle shooting. Metal/paper targets only mind!
Anyway, lying in dirt wearing combat trousers and second hand paratrooper boots is my idea of 'girl' ha! :emot-prettywink:
But dodgeball? Sod that for a game of conkers!
It's not surprising that, swimming aside, I do better in non-contact sports. :yesyes:
MyNameIsTerry
30-01-21, 07:50
Nora, I can remember a similar experience swimming. The teachers were more interested in which kids could represent the school in competitions.
Never played dodgeball but it looks fun. Seen the film 'if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball' :biggrin: Patches could have been one of our PE teachers. We had one who would like us up, when the weather prevented football, for the joys of indoor football which always had a warm up session where the teacher got to kick the football at our outstretched hands he demanded we place just in front of the walk and at our sides. Hopefully one of us, later in life, subjected him to a game of dodgefist :whistles:
Nora, I can remember a similar experience swimming. The teachers were more interested in which kids could represent the school in competitions.
This was the geography teacher who was a last minute stand in for the swimming instructor. This woman, I'm fairly sure, didn't like kids very much. She also stood in the entrance to the showers watching us and any girl who tried to avoid showering was forced back in. :whistles:
Seen the film 'if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball' :biggrin: Patches could have been one of our PE teachers. We had one who would like us up, when the weather prevented football, for the joys of indoor football which always had a warm up session where the teacher got to kick the football at our outstretched hands he demanded we place just in front of the walk and at our sides. Hopefully one of us, later in life, subjected him to a game of dodgefist :whistles:
We had a female PE teacher for girls and a male one for the boys - both wore impossibly tight tracksuit bottoms. Our female teacher was part-bloke and only bothered with the sporty types. The Grimley's 'Doug Digby' was obviously based on the lad's PE teacher. :yesyes:
MyNameIsTerry
30-01-21, 08:24
This was the geography teacher who was a last minute stand in for the swimming instructor. This woman, I'm fairly sure, didn't like kids very much. She also stood in the entrance to the showers watching us and any girl who tried to avoid showering was forced back in. :whistles:
We had a female PE teacher for girls and a male one for the boys - both wore impossibly tight tracksuit bottoms. Our female teacher was part-bloke and only bothered with the sporty types. The Grimley's 'Doug Digby' was obviously based on the lad's PE teacher. :yesyes:
Your female PE teacher makes me think of Miss Mann from Scary Movie
https://www.julienslive.com/images/lot/1082/108216_0.jpg?1441928613
I daren't post the. Gif as certain 'items' tend to fall out of that skirt :winks:
Our other male PE teacher used to like watching the boys get changed so we would leg it back quickly before he got there.
We would have been ok with our geography teacher. She spent her lessons learning over without a bra on. She could have just foregone clothes altogether for the pool :biggrin:
Our other male PE teacher used to like watching the boys get changed so we would leg it back quickly before he got there.
It was hard to know if the geography teacher was sweating through the heat of the showers or by staring at us? :shrug:
We would have been ok with our geography teacher. She spent her lessons learning over without a bra on. She could have just foregone clothes altogether for the pool :biggrin:
That's one way to ensure your students pay attention! :roflmao:
ankietyjoe
30-01-21, 11:20
Doesn't that one apply both ways? Isn't it why the hard left & right are the same?
That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making that anybody with a hard political stance belittles disagreement with accusation of equally moronic but opposite hard political stance.
And now this:
Liberal journalist Glenn Greenwald of the left leaning Guardian in reference to today's leftists in America...oh BTW he happens to be gay. Just threw that in there cause I figured it would garner him more credibility with you so called progressives.
Greenwald:
“They’re trying to harness corporate and monopoly power to silence everyone who disagrees with them, the very hallmark, the epitome of the fascism they claim to be fighting, but which in reality they embody.”
Fuhrer means 'tyrannical leader'. Trump is a self proclaimed German.
You're the one jumping to conclusions.
Lol nice try!
MyNameIsTerry
31-01-21, 04:53
That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making that anybody with a hard political stance belittles disagreement with accusation of equally moronic but opposite hard political stance.
Yes, but both ways I'm afraid as I pointed out. It's not just disagreeing with 'hard right wing nutjobs' makes extreme left wingers.
MyNameIsTerry
31-01-21, 05:09
And now this:
Liberal journalist Glenn Greenwald of the left leaning Guardian in reference to today's leftists in America...oh BTW he happens to be gay. Just threw that in there cause I figured it would garner him more credibility with you so called progressives.
Greenwald:
“They’re trying to harness corporate and monopoly power to silence everyone who disagrees with them, the very hallmark, the epitome of the fascism they claim to be fighting, but which in reality they embody.”
It's said that your left sit further to the right than ours. Naturally they would dislike Trump but they won't be happy with the Dems either. Both your parties dragged our government into conflicts in the Middle East that are very unpopular with the left. They wouldn't be supportive of the US intention to get hold of Snowdon..
You won't win either way as now our right media will stoke up frustration over the 'special relationship' which the US thinks they can use our troops whilst sticking their noses into internal matters.
Having said that there are elements of Dem policy that map to some of our left so left leaning media will support that.
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