Musicians, how on earth are these chord progressions done?

[WiredIncorrectly]

I found a very uplifting anime type song. It's Japanese and has a very happy feel to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1OIDyiwfM4

But for those reading who have some knowledge playing an instrument ... how are these chord progressions formed? The chord formations seem very close together, possible different chords inverted so the fingers stay around the same octave on a keyboard.

Any words of wisdom to help me understand this? I've been told Jazz theory. I don't believe thousands of people who make what seems to be cheap (but great) throw away music are highly in tune with Jazz theory. That doesn't seem plausible.

[Fishmanpa]

That's actually a pretty standard 1-4-5 progression. B - F# - C# back to F# or B depending. Just a bunch of embellishments like an add9 and arpeggio type things and such added is all.

Positive thoughts

[WiredIncorrectly]

That's actually a pretty standard 1-4-5 progression. B - F# - C# back to F# or B depending. Just a bunch of embellishments like an add9 and arpeggio type things and such added is all.

Positive thoughts

Oh damn, you're right. It is that progression. I must be tone deaf because I couldn't hear it (although I could hear the accidentals - correct term there?). Are the embellishments causing that "downward" sort of feel in the progression in places?

Thank you Fishmanpa, I knew there would be somebody. I think I've asked this before, what do you play?

[ankietyjoe]

Yeah it's the embellishments that are throwing you off. There is some dissonance and resolution going on that kind of hides the actual chord progressions. The bass line is also reinforcing the downward feeling of the chords.

[Fishmanpa]

Oh damn, you're right. It is that progression. I must be tone deaf because I couldn't hear it (although I could hear the accidentals - correct term there?). Are the embellishments causing that "downward" sort of feel in the progression in places?

Thank you Fishmanpa, I knew there would be somebody. I think I've asked this before, what do you play?

I'm a classically trained guitarist. Most songs, especially pop songs, are the same four chords, albeit slightly re-arranged and embellished. When I perform, it's really just a putting a capo on the right fret for most of the songs to change the key. That anime song is capoed on the 2nd fret and you play A - E and B . Most popular songs are essentially the same chords... Check THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I&ab_channel=random804) out :winks:

Positive thoughts

[WiredIncorrectly]

Yeah it's the embellishments that are throwing you off. There is some dissonance and resolution going on that kind of hides the actual chord progressions. The bass line is also reinforcing the downward feeling of the chords.

Yeah they completely threw me off. I started over complicating things trying to figure it out, the solution is simple as always.

[WiredIncorrectly]

I'm a classically trained guitarist. Most songs, especially pop songs, are the same four chords, albeit slightly re-arranged and embellished. When I perform, it's really just a putting a capo on the right fret for most of the songs to change the key. That anime song is capoed on the 2nd fret and you play A - E and B . Most popular songs are essentially the same chords... Check THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I&ab_channel=random804) out :winks:

Positive thoughts

You dark horse. I'd never have guessed if we didn't have the convo in this thread.

"So let me get this straight chicken little" ... "**** OFF". Thanks for sharing this, makes so much bloody sense now. Only took me some 10 years to realize this.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Had to watch that video thrice. I feel cheated all these years. Everything has been the same :roflmao:

[Fishmanpa]

Had to watch that video thrice. I feel cheated all these years. Everything has been the same :roflmao:

I do a 'mini set' of songs from the TV show Scrubs in my show. "Beautiful World" by Colin Hay, "Sooner or Later" by Michael Tolcher, "Book of Love" by Peter Gabriel (Magnetic Fields cover) as well as a few others. They're all basically G-Em-C-D :shrug: It makes the transitions flow nicely.

Positive thoughts

[WiredIncorrectly]

I would love to see if you have any online.

Certain things in life to me seem complex. Programming isn't one of them. Music is. How strange is that? My brain is always thinking about music from an analytical point of view. Why do those chords work together? How? Etc.

I'm now pondering why such common progressions affect the brain the way they do.

A normal person just jams and moves forward. I'm stuck down rabbit holes constantly.

But thank you. I shall call on your knowledge a little more when I get stuck. If you don't mind that is.

[ankietyjoe]

You can't really absorb music theory and it be instinctive without learning to play an instrument. Your brain 'muscle memory' never evolves without learning how to play. Doesn't matter how much you read, it'll never really sink in.

[WiredIncorrectly]

You can't really absorb music theory and it be instinctive without learning to play an instrument. Your brain 'muscle memory' never evolves without learning how to play. Doesn't matter how much you read, it'll never really sink in.

The piano roll is an instrument though :)

[ankietyjoe]

The piano roll is an instrument though :)

https://media1.tenor.com/images/b4fa9ceeea80e87ad18335e828237ad4/tenor.gif?itemid=15164482

[WiredIncorrectly]

I was wait for that lmfao! Gave me a good chuckle Joe.

[ankietyjoe]

To be honest, even if you just played scales for 30 minutes a day you'd get a long way there. One handed, each hand. Progress to two hands, one octave then two octaves. Do that for major, minor and then on to the variations. If you did that for a year your 'ear' would be massively improved.

[WiredIncorrectly]

To be honest, even if you just played scales for 30 minutes a day you'd get a long way there. One handed, each hand. Progress to two hands, one octave then two octaves. Do that for major, minor and then on to the variations. If you did that for a year your 'ear' would be massively improved.

I can play scales on a piano, and arpeggios. Took me ages to learn and get used to correct finger placement. I've got a good book that's highly recommended on amazon for adult learners and I used to do them daily.

But since I got rid of my longer keyboard, and only have the novation, it's quite difficult to get creative. This was me improvising ages ago (before I learned finger placement for LH and RH). I looked a lot younger here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDbQADxLAhg

I miss a full length keyboard for this reason.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Joe I need some advice.

I'm using Windows, and a Alesis IO2 soundcard. It does the trick for now, but there's a constant background hum/noise when recording even when nothing is plugged into the soundcard inputs.

I've read somewhere it's a possible ground loop and caused by plugging speakers into same outlet as PC, and hardware. Is this true? Trying to find an extension lead in the house to test it.

I need to solve this before I can hook up the preamp.

[ankietyjoe]

Joe I need some advice.

I'm using Windows, and a Alesis IO2 soundcard. It does the trick for now, but there's a constant background hum/noise when recording even when nothing is plugged into the soundcard inputs.

I've read somewhere it's a possible ground loop and caused by plugging speakers into same outlet as PC, and hardware. Is this true? Trying to find an extension lead in the house to test it.

I need to solve this before I can hook up the preamp.

This can be numerous things, including just having a plain old cheap sound card. Your gain staging might not be right (any recorded analogue signal path will have some inherent noise (called the noise floor)). If the noise is there with nothing plugged in, what exactly are you recording? From where?

Keyboard skills are not bad at all. There is much value to be had from using both hands because it starts the deeper process of interval training. It's the way that you are telling your hands what to do vs what you're hearing.

[WiredIncorrectly]

If the noise is there with nothing plugged in, what exactly are you recording? From where?

I don't know. It's either from faulty sound card, Windows ASIO, or some sort of ground loop.


Keyboard skills are not bad at all. There is much value to be had from using both hands because it starts the deeper process of interval training. It's the way that you are telling your hands what to do vs what you're hearing.

Yes with the left hand playing bass, and adding in chords, things start to sound amazing. I'm not at that stage to improvise like that, but my next investment is a weighted full size. I had the Acuna, that thing was amazing!

[ankietyjoe]

What I mean is, if nothing was connected to the soundcard inputs, what were you recording that had noise on it? Or is it just a background noise that's there all the time? Does the noise disappear if you disconnect the iO2?

[WiredIncorrectly]

What I mean is, if nothing was connected to the soundcard inputs, what were you recording that had noise on it? Or is it just a background noise that's there all the time? Does the noise disappear if you disconnect the iO2?

Oh my bad. I just have the soundcard plugged in and recording a mono channel (channel 1) from the soundcard. There is nothing attached to the soundcard except it's USB wire being plugged into the PC machine so I'm recording nothingness. I'm doing it to see if the hum was coming from the mic, or preamp to rule those out. I tried both channels, and the hum persists.

Basically debugging to see what the cause could be.

[WiredIncorrectly]

5301

It didn't work out of the box. The OS was froze. Had to do a firmware update. Going to have dinner and spend the night tucked up under a warm blanket and some samples.

It's open source too, you get access to all the source code. Can hack away at it until your hearts content implementing useful features: https://github.com/polyend/TrackerIssues/releases

That's why I love this.

[ankietyjoe]

Does the hum increase or decrease in volume if you increase or decrease the input gain on each channel?

[WiredIncorrectly]

Stays the same.

I think it's the soundcard. I moved the pots around and it stopped. I plugged the mic in, and it started. I'll take it apart, give it a clean.

[ankietyjoe]

You might find that once the DBX is plugged in the noise reduces a bit as the DBX will provide you with much cleaner gain, and the pre's in the iO2 can be turned down a fair bit.

Ultimately though, this is the reason I mentioned maybe spending money on a really good core, modern interface before anything else. The iO2 is just a very old, entry level interface.

[WiredIncorrectly]

You might find that once the DBX is plugged in the noise reduces a bit as the DBX will provide you with much cleaner gain, and the pre's in the iO2 can be turned down a fair bit.

Ultimately though, this is the reason I mentioned maybe spending money on a really good core, modern interface before anything else. The iO2 is just a very old, entry level interface.

I go through soundcards. I've got a dead Scarlett. I do have an 8in/8out rack USB soundcard but I gave it my brother as I had no need for it. I do now but it's overkill. I got it when I had money to waste. I've got patchbays and an Emu Mophat over there too. Old school ha ha.

I'll pick up another soundcard if I can't wiggle any more life out of this one.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Wait, both the model samples and the polytracker can act as soundcards :roflmao: I forgot the model samples does that. If I'm desperate I could duct tape something together.

[ankietyjoe]

Emu, Scarlett, iO2.....all shite tbh.

Send the Polyend Tracker back and get an RME. Trust me, you'll thank me later ;)

[WiredIncorrectly]

Emu, Scarlett, iO2.....all shite tbh.

Send the Polyend Tracker back and get an RME. Trust me, you'll thank me later ;)

The Emu is a relic and is the first piece of hardware I ever owned. I don't ever sell it because it holds memories from a time when music became exciting to me. It still works but the display needs to be replaced, very dull.
Hell no, this Polyend tracker is the dogs dangly bits. I know it seems odd to you, I'm a geek who writes music to hexadecimal notation :shades:

I've sourced a small scarlett from my brother to borrow until I can upgrade to a better interface. I'm just hoping this hum is the soundcard issue otherwise back to square one. I probably did it a bit backwards because I was impatient for the tracker. I'll get there in the end he he.

But yes, my eyes are on the RME. £320 on GAK.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Joe, does an MPC count as an instrument. I think this guy defined it as one :roflmao:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfUMNiRrEAw

[ankietyjoe]

I think whether you like the music or not, the MPC has been used as an instrument for years.

As for the RME, you'll be looking at the Digiface at that money. I would keep saving until you can go Babyface Pro at least, or even better would be to find a used RME UC.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Crickey, the price of the RME UC. Does that thing output gold electrons?

What justifies that price?

[ankietyjoe]

Crickey, the price of the RME UC. Does that thing output gold electrons?

What justifies that price?

What if I told you that RME isn't expensive, it's just that most of the alternatives are cheap crap?

What justifies the price is the build, the software, the support and the fact that it's actually a professional piece of equipment, not a prosumer lump of shite.

[WiredIncorrectly]

What if I told you that RME isn't expensive, it's just that most of the alternatives are cheap crap?

What justifies the price is the build, the software, the support and the fact that it's actually a professional piece of equipment, not a prosumer lump of shite.

The RME seems ok, but moving into the £800 mark takes some working around the misses. What do I tell her :roflmao:

Show me something expensive if the RME isn't.

[ankietyjoe]

Expensive is a relative term though right? Compared to what? If you're comparing it with a Scarlett, it's still not expensive because you're not comparing apples with apples.

A used RME UC is around £500, and will still be rock solid in a decade. RME will still be supporting it and updating software for it in a decade, and it's 'all you'll ever need'. If you do get to the point where you need more, it'll be because you're at a point where another grand on more interface won't matter.

There are plenty of RME equivalents (Apogee, Lynx, Prism), but RME generally offers a lot more for less money, whilst being on a par in terms of quality and arguably better for support and software.

Once you use RME Totalmix, you'll never go back ;)

[WiredIncorrectly]

Expensive is a relative term though right? Compared to what? If you're comparing it with a Scarlett, it's still not expensive because you're not comparing apples with apples.

A used RME UC is around £500, and will still be rock solid in a decade. RME will still be supporting it and updating software for it in a decade, and it's 'all you'll ever need'. If you do get to the point where you need more, it'll be because you're at a point where another grand on more interface won't matter.

There are plenty of RME equivalents (Apogee, Lynx, Prism), but RME generally offers a lot more for less money, whilst being on a par in terms of quality and arguably better for support and software.

Once you use RME Totalmix, you'll never go back ;)

True about price being relative. I've had 4 soundcards in 10 years, which easily cost me over the price of a used RME UC :roflmao:

I've been watching some video reviews on the RME products and I think I'm satisfied I'll go with one of these. I could stretch to a used RME UC but will mean a bit more saving. There's some on the bay atm.

Thanks for the help Joe. Rock solid as always.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Hi Hat, Snare and Tom rolls are amazingly simple with this tracker. Even simpler than on Renoise. You simply place your hi-hat on a line, then on the fx column next to it use the "roll" fx command. You can have each beat of a bar have a different type of roll and the patterns are better than what I could do in a DAW :roflmao: Skippy syncopated Trap :lisa:

[WiredIncorrectly]

Old school tracker.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NjqNwHidpk

[ankietyjoe]

To be honest I never really got into trackers as my 'classical' music lessons always pushed me more towards the linear stuff like Cubase. It wasn't until later on that I really understood why something like Ableton Live was so powerful in terms of getting ideas down fast. I did have an Amiga back in the day though, and the demo stuff on there was always really impressive. I think I had a bloody DX7 around the same time so it was a whole new world lol.

[WiredIncorrectly]

To be honest I never really got into trackers as my 'classical' music lessons always pushed me more towards the linear stuff like Cubase. It wasn't until later on that I really understood why something like Ableton Live was so powerful in terms of getting ideas down fast. I did have an Amiga back in the day though, and the demo stuff on there was always really impressive. I think I had a bloody DX7 around the same time so it was a whole new world lol.

Wait you had a DX7?! That's one of my all time fav. synths. I've only ever had the software version. Did you have Cubase on the Amiga? I had it on the Atari. Jahem (remember Just in Case?) inspired me to use an Atari and an Akai sampler. I ditched my PC back then for an old school workflow because I couldn't afford a drum machine. I loved it. I like working within limitations and then breaking out of the conventions.

And your reasons for uses standard DAWS are the same as mine (Except I started with Logic 4 on mac). Ableton was a game changer. Ableton's clip view comes from trackers, that's how you build songs in a track. Most trackers are limited in channels. The old ones definitely were, but you can have multiple instruments on one channel (and still add effects/EQ to the instruments separately), which is how those DnB tracks are done. Multiple instruments on one channel causes them to choke which is why flipping breaks for DnB is quite easy.

I didn't like trackers at first. I forced myself to use Milky Tracker because I wanted to learn how to do those lush chords you get from the older soundchips which often times only had a couple of oscillators. After I got onto Renoise and learned it properly I was hooked. As you know Renoise is a production grade DAW, and supports VSTs + lots of other stuff other trackers dont. Renoise walks all over my hardware box, but the hardware box can be taken away from the PC ... which is what I ultimately wanted. If I could have afforded an SP1200, or an MPC 3K, I may have gone with one of them, but I'm glad I didn't/couldn't.

Granular synthesis comes into play with trackers too. You create instruments out of minute "granular" samples.

It's a fun time if you like working outside the comfort zone for creativity. Oh, and feeding the model samples directly into the box is f**king dope.

One huge problem for me with Ableton is it's dependence on Max for creativity (probably not a problem for you or most others). Yet, they're the only DAW to allow you to put MIDI plugins in your chain because of that dependence. JUCE can't even do plugins that offer that functionality because VST/AU don't support it. And, if you notice these days there's so many VST's that sound the same ... because they're using the default oscillators, filters and algorithms from JUCE to quickly flip plugins. Serum and Deadmau5 started that trend. Good business model. Plugin Boutique was recently sold to Beatport, most of the plugins on there are JUCE based.

[ankietyjoe]

Yeah I used to play live in a band in the........80s.........

I had a DX7, Alpha Juno, SQ1, Atari ST and Pro 24 as my first 'setup', although in reality I really didn't know what I was doing with it. I left school when I was 16, actually I went to sixth form college for about 6 weeks until I realised astrophysics and maths/statistics were not how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. So I went out and started working lol.

Anyway, er.....

M4L is heavily integrated into Live now, and there are some really cool extensions available for free. Probability Pack is a very good one. In fact I did a video on it for SA ;)

[Fishmanpa]

Yeah I used to play live in a band in the........80s......... I had a DX7, Alpha Juno, SQ1, Atari ST and Pro 24 as my first 'setup', ......

I remember those. I had a W-30 in the 90's. Used to sequence backing tracks in a duo I played in. I was doing some purging and found some of the 3.5" floppies with the sets lists the other day. Sold the Roland around 10 years ago.

My recording setup is pretty basic. I have an old Korg D1600 and a couple of nice Audio-Technica mics. I feed the outputs into a PreSonus Audiobox midi interface and I'm running Cubase. Just enough to get a decent recording of my solo stuff.

Positive thoughts

[WiredIncorrectly]

Yeah I used to play live in a band in the........80s.........

I had a DX7, Alpha Juno, SQ1, Atari ST and Pro 24 as my first 'setup', although in reality I really didn't know what I was doing with it. I left school when I was 16, actually I went to sixth form college for about 6 weeks until I realised astrophysics and maths/statistics were not how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. So I went out and started working lol.

Anyway, er.....

M4L is heavily integrated into Live now, and there are some really cool extensions available for free. Probability Pack is a very good one. In fact I did a video on it for SA ;)

The probability pack is neat, I've played about with it. There's also the synth drums plugins that were done in M4L too. Live's automation is second to non.


astrophysics and maths/statistics

Very cool. How is your math knowledge? Do you understand the fast fourier transform alogrithm?

[WiredIncorrectly]

I remember those. I had a W-30 in the 90's. Used to sequence backing tracks in a duo I played in. I was doing some purging and found some of the 3.5" floppies with the sets lists the other day. Sold the Roland around 10 years ago.

My recording setup is pretty basic. I have an old Korg D1600 and a couple of nice Audio-Technica mics. I feed the outputs into a PreSonus Audiobox midi interface and I'm running Cubase. Just enough to get a decent recording of my solo stuff.

Positive thoughts

Never owned a Korg D1600, but I did have a smaller recorder. A Tascam porta 414. I'd love another. Added to my wanted list :) I think it was Bjork that got me interested in them in the very early days.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Atari ST and Pro 24 as my first 'setup'

The Atari mouse though. Bigger than a block of cathedral city.

[ankietyjoe]

I remember those. I had a W-30 in the 90's. Used to sequence backing tracks in a duo I played in. I was doing some purging and found some of the 3.5" floppies with the sets lists the other day. Sold the Roland around 10 years ago.

My recording setup is pretty basic. I have an old Korg D1600 and a couple of nice Audio-Technica mics. I feed the outputs into a PreSonus Audiobox midi interface and I'm running Cubase. Just enough to get a decent recording of my solo stuff.

Positive thoughts


There's a lot to be said for using the old digital multi track boxes tbh. It's very easy to get lost in the process of making music with a computer, but that's not denying the incredible benefits and potential to using it.

I always wanted a W30 though, could never afford it at the time lol. Lots of the classic early dance tracks were made using that wonderful machine.

The only reason I have so much 'stuff' now is that it's literally my job. My income has slowly meandered over to teaching people how to use all this stuff, and the historical knowledge/context comes in very useful.



Very cool. How is your math knowledge? Do you understand the fast fourier transform alogrithm?

Yes, but no.....and I'll tell you why.

I learned over the last ten years that information overload is a very bad thing. The internet just has too much 'stuff' in it, and although I'm kinda of pre-wired to understand mathematics (I'm not so good with written/English etc), if you take on too much learning, it can become a mental burden. I have to place limits on what I will actually sit down and study now, because your brain works better than way. I used to pride myself on the 'massive IQ' and ability to understand everything, but ultimately that's just ego flexing. There's plenty of stuff I'm really sh1t at, so who cares right? You need to feed the spirit, the soul, the intellect AND the lazy fvcker that resides within yourself.

[WiredIncorrectly]

I learned over the last ten years that information overload is a very bad thing. The internet just has too much 'stuff' in it, and although I'm kinda of pre-wired to understand mathematics (I'm not so good with written/English etc), if you take on too much learning, it can become a mental burden. I have to place limits on what I will actually sit down and study now, because your brain works better than way. I used to pride myself on the 'massive IQ' and ability to understand everything, but ultimately that's just ego flexing. There's plenty of stuff I'm really sh1t at, so who cares right? You need to feed the spirit, the soul, the intellect AND the lazy fvcker that resides within yourself.

Nail it. This is me too and a great explanation.