View Full Version : The Dark Side Of Spotify
WiredIncorrectly
15-02-21, 13:50
Great video here ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whQ8UBoz-To
I really miss the days when physical audio media was king, with my favourite period for record stores being the mid-80s through the early 90s, when we had three main formats for albums, vinyl LPs, cassettes and CDs, and for singles the main formats were 7-inch vinyl, 12-inch vinyl, then starting around 1988 or so we had the first CD singles, then by the early 90s we also had those 'cassingle' things (cassette singles).
With vinyl pretty much gone from nearly all mainstream stores by the mid-90s it just never felt quite the same again, even though I have always had CDs, but there has always been something about vinyl that for me has never followed in other, newer formats, not even analogue tape-
based formats.
Even just watching the labels in the centre of the records rotating whilst on the player I find extremely hypnotic, let alone the actual music. I've had many favourite paper label designs over the years too, plus of course the sleeves are an integral part of the package
WiredIncorrectly
01-03-21, 12:50
Yes Lencoboy! I fully agree with you. When music stopped being printed on physical medium I completely stopped buying music. You buy music today and you don't actually own a copy of that song. Piracy has gone through the roof too.
I love watching the vinyl turn around the deck, and the warm crackle at the start of every song.
Yes Lencoboy! I fully agree with you. When music stopped being printed on physical medium I completely stopped buying music. You buy music today and you don't actually own a copy of that song. Piracy has gone through the roof too.
I love watching the vinyl turn around the deck, and the warm crackle at the start of every song.
What really gets on my wick is those who still keep saying that vinyl is old hat now and that the vinyl revival is just a 'passing fad'. What? A medium whose sales have been increasing year-on-year in most countries of the world since about 2007?
Passing fad my backside!!
Isn't it most ironic that CDs (and even players themselves) have not only become as cheap as chips today, but many struggle to even give them away, let alone sell them.
WiredIncorrectly
01-03-21, 16:39
What really gets on my wick is those who still keep saying that vinyl is old hat now and that the vinyl revival is just a 'passing fad'. What? A medium whose sales have been increasing year-on-year in most countries of the world since about 2007?
Passing fad my backside!!
Isn't it most ironic that CDs (and even players themselves) have not only become as cheap as chips today, but many struggle to even give them away, let alone sell them.
I laugh at those people who claim it's a fad. It's not. It's here to stay and you only have to Google to see that vinyl is still being printed and sold today.
I lived through the vinyl days in my youth. I was a DJ and back then there was no such thing as CD decks. It was an artform, and a skill, to be able to mix two vinyl. You had many factors to deal with one of them being natural tempo sway. Technics avoided this problem with quartz, but I had belt drive decks back then. On belt drives you had to constantly manage both tracks to keep them in sync.
Then CDJ's became the thing in all clubs and the bedroom music producers were able to print their remixes and tracks to CD for DJ's to play. But there is no art in mixing CD. CD decks have BPM counters, auto timing features etc. There's no skill in that. It spawned a whole birth of new DJ's, all were hated by us vinyl warriors because they'd basically pee'ed all over the music scene with their MP3's.
The people who say it's a fad are those that don't know the industry still exists. I'm very passionate about vinyl too :p
I was in the music manufacturing industry for over 20 years. Sales and Marketing director for 9 of those years. I got into the business just as vinyl was phasing out and watched the demise of the cassette as well. The resurgence of vinyl started around 10 years ago as well as specialty high end audio gear. It's hovering around 25% of physical product sales. Overall though, digital holds the vast majority of the market at around 80+% of sales (that's not even accounting for free downloads and the like). That said, there still is a large niche for physical product. I looked at like "Occupy Wall Street" except is was "Occupy Indie Music". Just like wall Street, there are the 1%ers of the music industry that are selling 10's of thousands to millions+ product, being played on the radio etc. The rest, including myself are part of the 99% and having physical product and merch is an additional revenue stream. After all, if people like you, they like to take a little piece of you home with them. Besides, a download card is just a piece of paper and you can't sign a download right?
I have (had since the pandemic) a cush gig in the Shenandoah National Park for the last ten years. I performed an average of 6-12 times a month including some local wineries and breweries. I sold my CD at the gigs and on average I'd sell around 150 copies a season (March-November) at $10 a pop. My cost per unit was around $1.50 so that's a nice little profit. Take that, the nightly pay and tips and I had a nice little side business.
It's interesting, I wondered how, when the digital platforms started, how they would monopolize the market. After all, the record companies had the artists in their back pocket since the beginning. It really didn't take that long. On average in the digital streaming market is ridiculous! Let's put it this way, you have to get around 250-300 streams to make a dollar! Spotify, Apple and the others have taken over where the record companies have left off.
I consider them free advertising essentially. In the big picture, it's the fact that people are listening and enjoying that matters.
Positive thoughts
ankietyjoe
01-03-21, 18:47
Let's put it this way, you have to get around 250-300 streams to make a dollar!
And here's the thing.
I bought an album on CD in 1987 (for arguments sake, I actually bought hundreds).
Let's say I paid £8.
Of that £8, the band probably got paid around £1.50, maximum?
I have owned that CD for 35 years, and every time I play it, they get nothing. Since then I have also streamed the same album well over 500 times on Spotify (the album I'm thinking of is Yello - Stella). So they have actually earned more from me from streaming the album than me buying it 30 years ago.
This is the thing that really bothers me about the whole streaming argument. The idea that you get paid a dollar for ONE sale, but only $0.0067 (or whatever it is this week) for ONE play is not apples for apples. Not even remotely.
WiredIncorrectly
01-03-21, 19:20
There's two sides to the coin imo.
For some artists streaming works well. The case in point that you made there Joe is valid. But for most artists it doesn't work that way. The amount you get for a million plays on Spotify is continuing to get smaller as the platform becomes more saturated. They have the cheek to make you pay for your own plaque when you hit 1,000,000 plays which I think is around £150.
The cost of marketing to get to a million plays makes the whole endeavor pointless because you'll pay more in marketing than you earn from the million.
The cost of marketing to get to a million plays makes the whole endeavor pointless because you'll pay more in marketing than you earn from the million.
That's the bottom line. If people are listening and downloading and you make a few pennies, so be it. You cannot buy that kind of advertising. If you happen to get a break, then you're way ahead of the game. I've had fans email me during the last year with the pandemic just to say they listen to my CD and I've had emails from across the world with positive notes about my music. To me, that's priceless. After all, isn't that why we create?
Positive thoughts
Positive thoughts
WiredIncorrectly
01-03-21, 20:37
That's the bottom line. If people are listening and downloading and you make a few pennies, so be it. You cannot buy that kind of advertising. If you happen to get a break, then you're way ahead of the game. I've had fans email me during the last year with the pandemic just to say they listen to my CD and I've had emails from across the world with positive notes about my music. To me, that's priceless. After all, isn't that why we create?
Positive thoughts
Positive thoughts
Yes, I think that is the most important thing. I create for a hobby and if people say they enjoyed my music that's worth more than money to me. I couldn't imagine working in the industry to make a living. Its different for you as you tour, but for many producers it's hard to make headway in the game as you're not an artist that appeals to the public. It becomes more like B2B marketing to get sales from vocalists.
ankietyjoe
02-03-21, 10:23
There's two sides to the coin imo.
For some artists streaming works well. The case in point that you made there Joe is valid. But for most artists it doesn't work that way. The amount you get for a million plays on Spotify is continuing to get smaller as the platform becomes more saturated. They have the cheek to make you pay for your own plaque when you hit 1,000,000 plays which I think is around £150.
The cost of marketing to get to a million plays makes the whole endeavor pointless because you'll pay more in marketing than you earn from the million.
The music business has always worked this way sadly.
I used to know Holly Johnson (Frankie Goes to Hollywood) and also his old manager (Tony Pope). One of the best selling bands of the 80s, they made millions. HJ came out of it with almost nothing.
I'm also working with a guy now who just before Christmas had written 6 out of the top 10 tracks on Beatport (all genre chart) and is all over Radio 1. He is making money from Spotify, quite a lot.
It has always been the case, and always WILL be the case that 99% of bands/artists never make any money.
WiredIncorrectly
02-03-21, 13:19
It has always been the case, and always WILL be the case that 99% of bands/artists never make any money.
This is true.
I'm also working with a guy now who just before Christmas had written 6 out of the top 10 tracks on Beatport (all genre chart) and is all over Radio 1. He is making money from Spotify, quite a lot.
I know Chris Lorenzo, he does very well but he's been grinding on music for many years.
ankietyjoe
02-03-21, 14:32
I know Chris Lorenzo, he does very well but he's been grinding on music for many years.
So have 99% of all the other people making a living out of the music business.
I laugh at those people who claim it's a fad. It's not. It's here to stay and you only have to Google to see that vinyl is still being printed and sold today.
I lived through the vinyl days in my youth. I was a DJ and back then there was no such thing as CD decks. It was an artform, and a skill, to be able to mix two vinyl. You had many factors to deal with one of them being natural tempo sway. Technics avoided this problem with quartz, but I had belt drive decks back then. On belt drives you had to constantly manage both tracks to keep them in sync.
Then CDJ's became the thing in all clubs and the bedroom music producers were able to print their remixes and tracks to CD for DJ's to play. But there is no art in mixing CD. CD decks have BPM counters, auto timing features etc. There's no skill in that. It spawned a whole birth of new DJ's, all were hated by us vinyl warriors because they'd basically pee'ed all over the music scene with their MP3's.
The people who say it's a fad are those that don't know the industry still exists. I'm very passionate about vinyl too :p
Back in 2014, when the vinyl revival was really starting to gather pace, I remember saying to the girl behind the counter in our local HMV store 'why haven't you started selling vinyl again', and she replied 'cause there will never be enough demand for it, at least not locally, and streaming is the future', plus she admitted that she wasn't even aware of the vinyl revival at the time.
Soon after, our HMV store closed down, so just demonstrates how naive they were and that they were caught napping over the vinyl revival at the time!
I've heard that virtually all remaining HMV stores now actually have far more vinyl albums on their shop floors than CD albums. Hurrah!!
ankietyjoe
02-03-21, 19:17
I've heard that virtually all remaining HMV stores now actually have far more vinyl albums on their shop floors than CD albums. Hurrah!!
Not near me it's not. About 10% vinyl, the rest is still CD, movies, games, t-shirts, shite audio equipment and 'guff'.
Not near me it's not. About 10% vinyl, the rest is still CD, movies, games, t-shirts, shite audio equipment and 'guff'.
Good god, are they still stuck in a 90s-2000s timewarp or something?
So have 99% of all the other people making a living out of the music business.
It depends. As I said previously, 1% make the big bucks and 99% don't. That's not to say you can't make a good living in the business. The music business is first and foremost a business. How you run your business dictates how successful you'll be. From bookkeeping to marketing to performance to packaging etc. all play a part. Just like a large company produces a product, manufactures it, markets it, sells it etc., the same applies to the music business. The difference is the product is you and your abilities. I made a pretty decent living playing full time and I had, until COVID, a very lucrative part time business. It's hard work but it certainly can be done. I have many musical brothers and sisters who do the same.
Positive thoughts
ankietyjoe
03-03-21, 13:33
It depends. As I said previously, 1% make the big bucks and 99% don't. That's not to say you can't make a good living in the business. The music business is first and foremost a business. How you run your business dictates how successful you'll be. From bookkeeping to marketing to performance to packaging etc. all play a part. Just like a large company produces a product, manufactures it, markets it, sells it etc., the same applies to the music business. The difference is the product is you and your abilities. I made a pretty decent living playing full time and I had, until COVID, a very lucrative part time business. It's hard work but it certainly can be done. I have many musical brothers and sisters who do the same.
Positive thoughts
My point to James was that 99% of people who make a good living out of music have been grafting for years.
But, same here. I make a living indirectly out of the music business. I have had tracks released, but they never made any money. I'm good enough at what I do though that people repeatedly pay me to make online video content. I'm also good enough to make music for film/TV, but that is massively cutthroat and deadline driven and that's not how I choose to live my life. It's not a road to riches either, except for that good old 1%.
My pro rata day rate is huge, but as you probably understand that's only a small slice of the reality of doing this for a living. It's bloody hard work and I spent nearly a decade building up the skills, tools and contacts to be able to do it. I get people asking me every week if they can get me an 'in' with my main client, but my main client isn't interested. They know that if they give me a brief for 60 minutes of video (this is regular) they can leave it with me and within a few weeks it'll be uploaded, edited and ready to go.
I agree AJoe, that the digital aspects of the business are vastly different from the actual performing aspects. For me, it was more about performance (gigs) and merch. Prior to COVID, I was actually considering going back full time into gigging. The prevalence of locally smaller venues could keep me pretty busy and I wouldn't have to be on the road much if at all. But... the positives of a day job with benefits, security etc. outweighed me making that move at this point in my life. I do have musical friends that are/were doing it though, and if push came to shove, I could still pay the bills.
Positive thoughts
WiredIncorrectly
03-03-21, 18:22
Either of you folks had any experience with Taxi.com?
ankietyjoe
03-03-21, 19:01
I agree AJoe, that the digital aspects of the business are vastly different from the actual performing aspects. For me, it was more about performance (gigs) and merch. Prior to COVID, I was actually considering going back full time into gigging. The prevalence of locally smaller venues could keep me pretty busy and I wouldn't have to be on the road much if at all. But... the positives of a day job with benefits, security etc. outweighed me making that move at this point in my life. I do have musical friends that are/were doing it though, and if push came to shove, I could still pay the bills.
Positive thoughts
Yeah I did the gigging thing years ago (30 years....Gawd....) and it wasn't for me. I enjoy the creative studio process and actually making music. Heaving gear to a gig in Central London wasn't really interesting to me at all. Plus, I had a DX7 fall out the back of a car on the way home one night too...
Either of you folks had any experience with Taxi.com?
I use Uber pal......:whistles:
WiredIncorrectly
03-03-21, 19:21
I use Uber pal......:whistles:
That was a Dad joke :roflmao:
Yeah I did the gigging thing years ago (30 years....Gawd....) and it wasn't for me. I enjoy the creative studio process and actually making music. Heaving gear to a gig in Central London wasn't really interesting to me at all. Plus, I had a DX7 fall out the back of a car on the way home one night too...
It's just me and my guitar. I have a Bose system that weighs around 30 pounds, sets up in minutes, a couple of pedals a light bar and that's it. The mix is set, it's just a matter of set up, set the volume and go. I can show up 30 minutes prior and be ready to go in 15 minutes. Tear down is equally as easy and fast. For me, it's about interacting with the audience, making a connection which in turn sells product. It's also a great mental and emotional release. It's a great feeling coming home from a good gig and a different but good kind of tired if you know what I mean. I do miss performing for sure. Realistically, I don't see it happening this year but by Spring of next year, I think we'll be back to a 'new normal'.
Positive thoughts
ankietyjoe
03-03-21, 22:30
It's different being a keyboard player lol. It's ALL setup, NO crowd interaction lol.
But yeah, good tired. I get that.
To be honest I was never particularly skilled enough to perform more than I did anyway. I was fine playing my grades etc, but I never really got into the performance side of it. I love creating in the studio and my knowledge there is vast. I do have a guitar sitting here that I've been threatening to learn for years.
Another thing lost with LPs is all the great album art. A CD just ain't the same. For me an unscratched LP still has the best sound quality. I'm currently moving much of my vinyl onto digital especially the stuff that just isn't available on mp3/mwa.
WiredIncorrectly
04-03-21, 14:39
Another thing lost with LPs is all the great album art. A CD just ain't the same. For me an unscratched LP still has the best sound quality. I'm currently moving much of my vinyl onto digital especially the stuff that just isn't available on mp3/mwa.
I remember (and regret) buying lots of vinyl to cover a wall in my studio with album artwork. It looked good, but the poor vinyls were thrown like saucers.
There's a lot of stuff that only exists on vinyl that hasn't even found its way online.
I know lots of places to get .FLAC vinyl rips for free. DM me if you want the links.
WiredIncorrectly
04-03-21, 14:48
I do have a guitar sitting here that I've been threatening to learn for years.
I got an acoustic and a bass guitar. Neither have been used for longer than 20 minutes since I got them years ago. I've been meaning to learn myself. I wanted to learn so I can get a midi guitar and do some cool chord slides.
Last night I dug out my RaspberryPi. I've put CSound on it and hooked up the output to soundcards input (I could process via the dbx here too, but it's all pre-set for my vocals so not touching that). Currently generating simple 808's but by the end of today I hope to have it pumping out some thick 808 bass. Turned a tiny computer into a musical instrument :)
I remember (and regret) buying lots of vinyl to cover a wall in my studio with album artwork. It looked good, but the poor vinyls were thrown like saucers.
There's a lot of stuff that only exists on vinyl that hasn't even found its way online.
I know lots of places to get .FLAC vinyl rips for free. DM me if you want the links.
Whoa! Thank you Wired! Yes, I will do that first chance.👍
BTW since we're on the subject here's a great clip of legendary drummer Steve Gadd and his band showing how it's done. What a lineup. Stevie Wonder's Signed Sealed Delivered:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X1QkTRsAm6o
WiredIncorrectly
04-03-21, 22:23
BTW since we're on the subject here's a great clip of legendary drummer Steve Gadd and his band showing how it's done. What a lineup. Stevie Wonder's Signed Sealed Delivered:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X1QkTRsAm6o
I love it when I see black and white performing on stage. Music brings everybody together. Great drummer!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.