View Full Version : Are persons with ASD easy pickings for punitive treatment?
Last Wednesday (3rd Jan) I was having a conversation with this one staff member at my day centre whose previous job some years back involved 'care in the community', and they mentioned that on one occasion they 'bailed out' one of their clients who had ASD who had a bit of a verbal altercation (non-physically violent) with an irate shop assistant who was threatening to press charges against said person with ASD who got a bit arsy and lippy in return towards that already arsy and stroppy shop assistant who was basically coming out with all the usual hyperbole about 'zero tolerance', ASBOs, etc, and generally attempting to go in all guns blazing at that person with ASD, threatening to 'lay down the law' on said person, all for the sake of a misunderstanding.
I've also heard and read horror stories (and even witnessed such things in person) in the past about persons with ASD unfairly being on the receiving end of ASBOs and the like, often where there was no actual criminal intent, and have also been fair game for being on the receiving end of zero tolerance policies seemingly willy-nilly at school, college, day centres, hospitals and other NHS and likewise establishments, etc, especially during the decade of the 2000s.
And all while many true ne'er-do-wells have often ended up getting off scot-free!
What does anyone think?
MyNameIsTerry
06-01-24, 09:51
My first thought was does the person know the other has ASD?
There are many mental health conditions including anxiety and depression that can cause anyone to act out of character. I've done it myself and felt terrible for it afterwards.
So do we all have to assume mental health issues when someone acts poorly? If so how are we to separate genuine people from someone who is basically an ar5ehole? And how is it acceptable to vent at someone because you are suffering? Its understandable but it does not excuse behaviour.
A further difficulty might be whether the person has enough insight into their behaviour. That can be hard with ASD but in the heat of the moment it can be for anyone otherwise prisons would have more free cells.
It's a wider debate than ASD because historically anyone with anything outside of the norm has been treated badly by society and those in charge. Not even considering the lack of safeguarding people from abusers.
So what is unique to ASD? So much of the poor treatment overlaps into other conditions but are there some that are only aimed at people like yourself?
My first thought was does the person know the other has ASD?
There are many mental health conditions including anxiety and depression that can cause anyone to act out of character. I've done it myself and felt terrible for it afterwards.
So do we all have to assume mental health issues when someone acts poorly? If so how are we to separate genuine people from someone who is basically an ar5ehole? And how is it acceptable to vent at someone because you are suffering? Its understandable but it does not excuse behaviour.
A further difficulty might be whether the person has enough insight into their behaviour. That can be hard with ASD but in the heat of the moment it can be for anyone otherwise prisons would have more free cells.
It's a wider debate than ASD because historically anyone with anything outside of the norm has been treated badly by society and those in charge. Not even considering the lack of safeguarding people from abusers.
So what is unique to ASD? So much of the poor treatment overlaps into other conditions but are there some that are only aimed at people like yourself?
I don't dispute much of what you say Terry.
While I agree wholeheartedly that simply having ASD doesn't give such persons carte blanche to behave like selfish @rseholes just for the sake of it, there are many other factors that often known to be overlooked; e.g, extremely overwhelming environments chocker with various sources of sensory overload (which can obviously drive many neurotypicals to distraction even at the best of times, let alone persons with disabilities), the persons in question struggling with monetary skills (and inadvertently being slow) when being served at the till/checkout while at the same time being tutted at and/or moaned at by both the person on the till/checkout and irate customers in the queue behind them, which can sometimes lead to the persons with ASD having meltdowns on the spot, which is usually unintentional beforehand and usually also heavily regretted by those persons afterwards.
I've known it happen on buses too in the past; not just involving persons with ASD but other disabilities and also elderly persons who of course can often be a bit slow through no fault of their own, and certain bus drivers acting all arsy towards them, sometimes reducing them to tears.
The crux of the issue is often impatience and/or intolerance, which obviously goes hand in hand with society seemingly being in a hurry a lot of the time, which isn't necessarily the fault of persons with disabilities, the elderly, etc, who almost always seem to get it in the neck, especially for being slow.
It's a wider debate than ASD because historically anyone with anything outside of the norm has been treated badly by society and those in charge. Not even considering the lack of safeguarding people from abusers.
I do often wonder if I was often 'fitted up' by certain staff members (and also certain other pupils) at the residential school I attended back in 1986-87, especially regarding the last sentence in your selected quote above?
Being on the spectrum doesn't preclude a person from being aggressive, creepy or a pain in the backside to deal with.
Being on the spectrum doesn't preclude a person from being aggressive, creepy or a pain in the backside to deal with.
Again, I don't dispute that in any way, but the point I am making is that we have often seemingly been disproportionately singled out for things (including certain behaviours that we can't always help) and had the book thrown at us where others have often been known to get off scot-free for far worse things.
But then again I suppose that's just the way of the world and a case of Murphy's Law.
I do often wonder if I was often 'fitted up' by certain staff members (and also certain other pupils) at the residential school I attended back in 1986-87 ...
Do you identify as a victim – always, often, seldom, never?
Do you identify as a victim – always, often, seldom, never?
As in reporting what went on in that place all those years ago to the authorities?
If that's what you mean then no I haven't, as there would probably be little point in doing so all these years later, plus I would probably find the court cases involved just as traumatic as the original events themselves.
As in reporting what went on in that place all those years ago to the authorities? ...
No, generally as you go through life?
No, generally as you go through life?
I doubt if it would really make any difference TBH, plus there's far more pressing issues for the authorities to be dealing with of late.
However, it wasn't just me that was on the receiving end of such treatments when I was younger; I witnessed various other fellow peers of mine also being treated harshly; sometimes even more inhumanely than me in fact, and certainly wasn't pleasant to witness on said occasions.
Especially hearing certain staff members at the residential school brawling with other pupils in the corridors there late at night, and being kept awake by all the din arising from the commotion; shouting, screaming, slapping, you name it!
Pretty terrifying stuff, similar to hearing late-night domestics between parents.
MyNameIsTerry
06-01-24, 21:27
It's like the child acting up. You see a kid having a meltdown and the assumption was always naughtiness or lack of parenting. Later we learnt that kid may have ASD and a parent struggling to cope.
But without outward labelling you just don't know. But you are right that patience is often in short supply with anyone. I don't have time for the morons who can't care to wait for a minute before they are killing faces.
As for bus drivers, I've come across my share who have bad attitudes. The times they drive past your stop and don't even apologise. :mad: I had one years ago that went 2 stops with a queue to get off before I had a go at the idiot. Made us all late for work.
It's like the child acting up. You see a kid having a meltdown and the assumption was always naughtiness or lack of parenting. Later we learnt that kid may have ASD and a parent struggling to cope.
But without outward labelling you just don't know. But you are right that patience is often in short supply with anyone. I don't have time for the morons who can't care to wait for a minute before they are killing faces.
Sadly there will always be those with very black-and-white attitudes who often have a habit of jumping to quick conclusions and/or making sweeping generalisations without thinking things through properly. As in the case of children with ASD often being mistaken for a genuinely naughty child whose parents cannot control them and hearing the typical 'That evil little brat needs a bloody good hiding', etc, which I've heard others (especially older people) muttering quietly in the background while I've been in town, etc, even though I could tell that the children concerned had ASD by a country mile, though that was (thankfully) at least 10 years ago now.
And you're certainly correct that there's many people who lack patience and indeed compassion at times.
As for bus drivers, I've come across my share who have bad attitudes. The times they drive past your stop and don't even apologise. :mad: I had one years ago that went 2 stops with a queue to get off before I had a go at the idiot. Made us all late for work.
While I acknowledge that bus drivers and public transport workers in general are often performing a thankless task and chronically underpaid (as demonstrated in particular by all the train strikes since around mid 2022), there's always been certain intimidating attitude-ridden, jobsworth-type drivers who are so up themselves, and act as if they own the buses themselves that they're driving.
Ditto for certain taxi drivers as well.
Of course, they're obviously in the minority and most are nice and friendly 99% of the time, which also applies to shop assistants, doctors/nurses, police officers, firefighters, school teachers, etc, of which there will, unfortunately, always be a certain amount of irate, power-mad, jobsworth types too.
MyNameIsTerry
07-01-24, 00:19
While I acknowledge that bus drivers and public transport workers in general are often performing a thankless task and chronically underpaid (as demonstrated in particular by all the train strikes since around mid 2022), there's always been certain intimidating attitude-ridden, jobsworth-type drivers who are so up themselves, and act as if they own the buses themselves that they're driving.
Ditto for certain taxi drivers as well.
Of course, they're obviously in the minority and most are nice and friendly 99% of the time, which also applies to shop assistants, doctors/nurses, police officers, firefighters, school teachers, etc, of which there will, unfortunately, always be a certain amount of irate, power-mad, jobsworth types too.
They perform no more a thankless task than anyone else and can be on more money than the private sector so I always dislike when they tout that one.
They perform no more a thankless task than anyone else and can be on more money than the private sector so I always dislike when they tout that one.
You could be right there, especially as underpaid workers in the private sector often don't get a look in by the media.
Back to the original thread topic; I wish to make it clear that this isn't an attention-seeking 'poor me' thread.
I doubt if it would really make any difference TBH, plus there's far more pressing issues for the authorities to be dealing with of late. ...
I think you’ve either misunderstood my original multiple choice question, or for some reason you’re evading giving an answer. I’m not implying you should be seeking redress from anyone for past grievances. What I was trying to elicit was whether you view yourself as a victim in/of life. Many of your threads/posts allude to personal bitterness, and you often seem to be wanting to blame someone, or some situation beyond your control, for upsetting you
I think you’ve either misunderstood my original multiple choice question, or for some reason you’re evading giving an answer. I’m not implying you should be seeking redress from anyone for past grievances. What I was trying to elicit was whether you view yourself as a victim in/of life. Many of your threads/posts allude to personal bitterness, and you often seem to be wanting to blame someone, or some situation beyond your control, for upsetting you
I think we can all have such tendencies to a certain extent.
Plus we're all victims of something or other throughout our lifetimes; some more serious than others.
But the crux of the issue at heart is that ASD is historically a poorly understood condition and still is to a certain extent, despite its increased media coverage and general awareness over the past 30-odd years or so, but I think that's more by those who habitually bury their heads in the sand.
I'm feeling very upset this evening because a close friend of our family sadly passed away this morning but my dad wasn't informed until just before tea time after which he broke the news to me.
Also I feel like my dad is trying to guilt-trip me by making out to be even more affected himself by this person's death and that my grieving is making him feel even worse, as if my dad is trying to outdo me with some kind of grief competition and accusing me of being selfish; as if he's seeking to be more upset than I am.
I know this might be my own personal perception and I'm aware that some people have a tendency to think more irrationally than usual in the immediate àftermath of traumatic events, but I seriously don't intend to be selfish in any way as I feel I have a right to be just as saddened as my dad by this death.
I'm dreading the thought of the same thing happening when my mom finally passes away; being falsely accused of being selfish and turning it into a 'me me me' grief match, which I seriously have no intention of doing.
I just feel so inferior and belittled right now.
I'm feeling very upset this evening because a close friend of our family sadly passed away this morning but my dad wasn't informed until just before tea time after which he broke the news to me.
Also I feel like my dad is trying to guilt-trip me by making out to be even more affected himself by this person's death and that my grieving is making him feel even worse, as if my dad is trying to outdo me with some kind of grief competition and accusing me of being selfish; as if he's seeking to be more upset than I am.
I know this might be my own personal perception and I'm aware that some people have a tendency to think more irrationally than usual in the immediate àftermath of traumatic events, but I seriously don't intend to be selfish in any way as I feel I have a right to be just as saddened as my dad by this death.
I'm dreading the thought of the same thing happening when my mom finally passes away; being falsely accused of being selfish and turning it into a 'me me me' grief match, which I seriously have no intention of doing.
I just feel so inferior and belittled right now.
My dad apologised to me first thing this morning for his abruptness towards me last night; he admitted to being what I had suggested all along that he was feeling highly emotionally charged in the heat of the moment and irrationally saying things he didn't necessarily mean, but has now slept on it overnight and thought it through.
I understand that learning of that person's death will have been a great shock to him, as it was to me too, and he was obviously struggling to cope with his own emotions pertaining to it during the immediate occasion, let alone mine.
Although this particular post isn't necessarily about punitive treatment per se, it's probably more about perceived condescending treatment, and also later regrets.
Even though it was some time around 1996-97, which was when I was starting to do certain things more independently, such as travel to and from our town centre unsupported (both on foot and on the bus), plus the satellite unit of my previous day centre that I normally attended (and I first started at around that time) was incidentally sited just on the very edge of our town centre, this still continues to haunt me today.
It was a bit of a feud between me and my grandma, who by that time had a habit of demanding exactly how much I was charged for things I bought while in town, and she was always somehow under the impression that I was being overcharged and 'ripped off', and that the shop staff, market stall traders, etc, were unscrupulous rob-dogs who 'saw me coming' and 'diddled' me.
I often tried to explain to my grandma at the time that she had got it all wrong and that the price stickers were already affixed well in advance to the front of the items that I purchased, but she didn't believe me and weren't having none of it, threatening to go down to those shops and 'really give 'em what for'!
The final straw came for me the one afternoon when I got off the bus near her flat in about 1997 or so and popped in to visit her on the way back from my day centre, and I had bought a vinyl LP from one of the local charity shops of a certain classical music release to replace an old clapped-out copy of that very same album my mom bought back in the early 70s when it first came out, and instead of what should have been 'Ah, that's a lovely record', etc, from my grandma I was instead not only getting it in the neck off her with the usual 'They saw you coming and diddled you', but she was also on the warpath over a couple of slight scuffs on the rear sleeve, and on that occasion I almost snapped, put my coat back on and scurried back home as fast as I could to calm down, and inadvertently listening to said record to help calm me down even further.
While I kind of understand now in retrospect how anxious my grandma obviously felt for my safety and wellbeing, I also felt on occasions that she wasn't exactly being very confidence-inspiring to me at that time while still trying to be too over-protective towards me and constantly believing that people were 'out to get me'.
I also reckon that my grandma probably felt a bit sad that both me and my brother were growing up by that stage and 'no longer her little (grand) kiddy-winks', coupled with that lesser feeling of 'control' over us (in the nicest possible ways, of course), and probably also felt the sense of dread that we might have got led astray by 'undesirables'.
Don't get me wrong. I still loved my grandma to pieces no matter what and will always otherwise have fond memories of her, plus I now kind of feel a bit guilty of the fact that I may have overreacted to her a bit on occasions back then and wish I had been a bit more tolerant.
I sometimes feel the same about my mom too, and kind of wish I could have also been a bit more tolerant of some of her respective foibles by the time I had reached full adulthood.
I also recall my grandma around that same era also voicing her concerns about my brother who had started venturing into town in the evenings with his mates and strangely she was more concerned about my brother walking through the pedestrian alleyway linking the top corner of our estate with the main road while he was walking both to and from town, and that some thug(s) might had been waiting up there ready to rob him or beat him up, but strangely never mentioned anything about the late-night drunks down in the town centre.
Although I don't wish to tempt fate by saying this and of course we can never say never, but out of the near-40 years we've lived on this very same estate, to the best of my knowledge I've never once heard of any violent 'stranger-on-stranger' attacks in neither said alleyway nor anywhere else on the entire estate, plus my brother has luckily never had any direct encounter with any aggro whilst out on the town, neither then nor now.
Of course young people should by all means be made aware of potential risks and hazards while out and about and learn about basic common sense 'dos and don'ts' all within reason, but not have the fear of God put into them over the minutest of potential 'bogeymen', to the point of often unwarranted paranoia.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.