Your Social Anxiety

[mico]

First of all I'd like to thank Nicola for this new addition to the forums, I got quite excited when I seen it (I obviously lead a vibrant life) [:P]. Hopefully it can give me (as well as others) a better insight into SA, which is partly the reason for this topic. If you want to waste a few minutes of your day, then feel free to read on...

I was reading through the other topics here and felt compelled to reply to all of them, each one had issues that I was familiar with. But I didn't want to repeat myself in each one, so I decided to start a new one instead (I guess the problem with this is that I may be asking others to repeat themselves who have already posted. If so, I apologise).

After suffering from anxiety for about 8 years and educating myself on what exactly it is, how to control it, etc, I feel I have a reasonably good understanding of the whole 'anxiety thing'. But sometimes I find social anxiety to be a far cry from my other anxieties. For example, even though I would only consider myself to have suffered from anxiety for the past 8 years, I feel my SA goes as long back as I can remember. Looking at the other posts here, others seem a little confused with it too, so what I wanted to do with this topic is get a few people's opinions, their experiences of SA, and what it means to them. Kind of like SA Anonymous :D. I think it would be a good start to the Social Anxiety thread in the forums if we start off by trying to understand a little about SA in general itself.

'HI my name's mico, I've been a....'

No, seriously. The honest truth is that I have never been officially diagnosed with SA, I'm my own doctor (typical bloke, huh?), I diagnose and treat myself, which is why I would like to gain a better understanding. One of the most confusing things for me, is how is my SA different from my other anxieties? Do I even have SA? Should SA cause panic attacks, it never used to? What I do remember, is from as long as I can remember, I've been very shy. Someone asked in another thread here; where do you cross the line? It's a good question. Where exactly do you cross the line? Unfortuanately, from what I've learned about myself and from anxiety is that usually things arn't black and white, all the same though, I would like to get things a little clearer if possible. All this time of suffering from SA/shyness, I never had one panic attack or any physical symptoms of anxiety until eight years ago. Even so, I would still consider my 'condition' (not sure if I like that word, but anyway...) to be quite severe. I can't go out into any public place and feel comfortable. If there are people about, then I'm being watched! I'm probably not being watched, but that is how I feel, and even if I was, why should I care (That's a rhetorical question :D)?

Not only do I reguarly feel like I'm being watched, but I also feel like I'm being judged, especially when I speak, which in turn makes me speak less. I guess these are just regular symptoms of shyness though, and the actually boundaries of shyness and SA are still unclear. What does strike a chord with me, is that given the scenario that I was the only person in the world, then I don't feel I would suffer from anxiety. Although many people are maybe the same in that respect. I think one of my biggest fears is the fear of people. Agorophobia isn't usually diagnosed as a fear of wide open spaces as many people believe the term to be, it is usually diagnosed when you fear going places, of which usually involve a certain amount of people. Incidentally, the original Greek meaning of 'Agoro' is 'market place' (a phobia of the market place). Which is usually what Agorophobics fear the most, shopping centres, etc.

Don't ask me where I'm going with this, I've lost myself [:P]! I'm just thinking out loud here (again! sorry [B)] I did have something to say when I started this, but I forgot exactly what it was now).

Anyway, back to the story/informative post/gibberish/complete waste of my dinner break! (select as appropriate ;))...

All I'm toy

[Tracy68]

Hi Mico
How to answer to that...I think its probably best if I can put my situation across and I think that there is a difference (kind of lol).
I've come to realise that i actually suffer with Health anxiety, I'm always worrying about becoming ill and every pain i blow all out of proportion and convince myself that i have something terrible. I don't however suffer with a social anxiety. I can quite easily go out and mix with people, even strangers (ok maybe more so when i was younger) but I don't have a fear of people watching me or anything.
Now on the other hand my fiance does suffer with social anxiety quite badly. He is the same as you, can't stand the thought of going out because people will be watching him and judging him also. I find his anxiety a bit difficult to understand the same as he does mine. He hates going into a shop where he doesn't know the layout because that would mean he would have to go wandering around the shop looking for what it was he wanted and he says people are watching him and he feels stupid. He tends to wear black clothes most the time and when i asked him why he said that if he wore brighter colours that would attract people to look at him. We're getting married at the end of May and only last night did he say to me, please don't expect me to make any speeches or do that first dance of the evening, because the idea of having everyone watching him makes him feel physically sick.
I think i've waffled on a bit and to be honest to put everything into words about mine and his anxieties would take all night. But i do certainly feel that there is a difference between the two. I don't know if you can relate to any of this at all.
This probably hasn't helped much but just thought by putting my situation across between us all we may eventually come up with some answers.
Take care
Tracy
xx

[sal]

Hi Mico

Great to hear from you. Great piece of writing, going to read it again before i reply.

Hi Tracy

Great post aswell in replies to Mico's.



Lots of Love Sal xxxxx

[another_adam]

hi mico

I diagnosed myself with SA and generalized anxiety(GA) too :). Doctors would hand over ssri's but never actually titled my anxietys or counsellors either, i wish they had just to confirm it!.

I just tryed writing about SA and GA but i dont know myself lol. I keep changing my opinion on the matter.

There different only because of what you fear.
hows that!

GA for me was the worst simply because you are in constant fear(of what? dieing most of time), whereas SA was when i put myself into certain situations, like going to town, college, work etc.

I agree with you mate its a really complex issue, where is self esteem/confidence involved in this is that the real problem? "accepting yourself for who you are" would that sort the anxiety issues out? are they underlying suppressed feelings we need to open too in order to heal? probably.

::confused:: :)

[mico]

Sal


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">

Great to hear from you. Great piece of writing, going to read it again before i reply.

<div align="right">Originally posted by sal - 03 March 2005 : 16:10:26</div id="right">
</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

HaHa, are you being serious :D? My mind went blank after the first paragraph I think, I'm half asleep today. But I'd started so I thought I might as well finish [^].

Thanks anyway. Hope you are doing well.


Tracy

It's good to just hear different people's opinions, and what they have to say on the matter, whatever those opinions may be (in fact, the more varied, the better).


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote"> He hates going into a shop where he doesn't know the layout because that would mean he would have to go wandering around the shop looking for what it was he wanted and he says people are watching him and he feels stupid.</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

That's interesting, it's very much like me too, I thought I was the only nutter :D. It often feels people are watching every single move I make and are questioning the reasons why I do such things. Say, for the shop scenario, people are going to be watching me and asking themselves, 'what's he doing in that part of the shop?', 'why's he going over there?', 'what's he looking at that for?', 'he doesn't look right for this shop'! It really is ridiculous, and I may well spend the full time there with these kind of thoughts going through my head. And as I say, I've had this problem from way before my anxiety. So I guess one of the big questions is; what causes it? I know it's some form of anxiety, it's just a very confusing one.

Adam

You sound just as confused as me :D.

It's all good though, keep 'em coming.

Thanks

mico

[sal]

Hi Mico

I can relate to what you are saying and can also see the point you are making about SA and it been inbuilt if you are a shy person. Of is it that people are confident through out their lifes then a incident in a busy place brings it on. It could be both, i am sure some from a very young age who have been very shy have had SA but that wont have been recognised.

But you also get fear of places where you can relate a panic attack to and you wont expose yourself to that again, that could be a shopping centre etc so in turn as that turned into SA.

I dont know the answers but it was a good post you started.



Lots of Love Sal xxxxx

[Tracy68]

Very confusing, and I don't know the answer either. But I do honestly think that the cause of it varies from person to person. John (fiance) was perfectly ok up until about ten years ago when something devastating happened to him (sorry but can't go into detail that wouldn't be fair on him). Then since that episode he went downhill and very quickly. He suffered agoraphobia for several years and never went out the house and when he had to he could only go with someone with him.

[but I also feel like I'm being judged, especially when I speak, which in turn makes me speak less. ]

Again i can know where you are coming from. John will chat to people but finds it easier when he is in his own home. If we go walking together and bump into someone they'll speak to him and he'll mumble back and unfortunately they then in turn think he is being rude.
There are alot of people who just don't understand social anxiety (i don't always and i live with him) but just because you can't see it say like you can a broken arm doesn't mean people have to naive about it.

Tracy
x

[Unhappy_Tiger]

This is a very interesting topic, and I have a couple of thoughts about it. I've been giving SA a whole lot of thought, and I have a couple... perhaps you could call them hypotheses.

Anyways, as I said in my other thread, I think that perhaps someone can train themselves to have social anxiety disorder if they are an already shy person. By avoiding socialization, you create a lessening of anxiety (positive stimulus), and that cycle will continue until it becomes a habit and a phobia that changes your neural pathways.

I think the line dividing shyness and SA is tough - they're definitely related. I think I might say that it's only when your shyness is so extreme that it interfers with your quality of life and relationships that it becomes social anxiety disorder.

As for myself, I'm combining psychotherapy and an SSRI (Paxil) to try and ease my social phobia. I told my psychiatrist that I thought my insecurity with talking to others, my feelings of being watched and judged as I fill my car up with gas, walk across a crosswalk, get called on in class (the last one causes intense, unbearable anxiety to me), walk into a store (no, you're not the only weirdo there... I feel extremely uneasy about looking at various things because I think that a shop owner is going to tell me I don't need it or something) come from feelings of inferiority that I've had since I was a small child. We've managed to pinpoint the beginning of the inferiority to my parent's divorce, and I thought I was responsible for my mom's sadness. Now, even though I logically realize that of course I was not, I can't get rid of the base feelings of inferiority. This causes me to feel like I shouldn't be crossing the crosswalk because cars have to drive somewhere, I shouldn't be putting gas in my car because someone else needs the pump, I shouldn't talk to professionals or doctors because they have more important things to worry about. This, I believe, caused my SA. I'm quite sure it varies for everyone, but I hope my example can help you figure out some answers to your questions.

[andrew]

hi mico,

umm, errrr .... loads of questions. i think one of the reasons social anxiety is so difficult to pin down is because its a created phrase to describe more than one similar anxiety creating situation. also the chosen words aren't defined enough - "anxiety" for instance means five different things to five different people.

im a self diagonsed sufferer as well .... i'd be interested to know if anybody other than a psychriatrist could actually diagonse somebody as having this condition and how long they would need to make that evaluation.

im not sure that i ever think about whether SA is different from any other anxieties, although i have the same deep rooted feelings that it is embedded. i do tend to look at it in terms of emotions rather than words, all of our feelings are part of our personalities. i didn't get it at all where you related it to GAD, again i think its a case of different words holding different meanings for different ppl. after a bit of thought i did actually think it was more OCD in pattern, the self consciousness is obsessive and the do's and dont's of lifestyle are fairly complusive.

in the 3 years ive been trying to 'fix this' i have got better (all the usual theraphy) i can now swing my arms in my little circle of life lol. and i can cope with some situations easily that would have previously anxiety attacked me. i suppose ive learnt to front it out, supress, affirm, stroke, comfort, force my feelings when i need to - but left to choice my circle is very small, is it the SA controlling me still, is it just my personality, who knows???

anyway more than enough .... andrew

[sal]

Hi Mico

Got some great replies and you have made us all think about it.

Hope you are okay.



Lots of Love Sal xxxxx

[mico]

Sal

Thanks for the reply, you have a good point about exposure there.

Apart from my overloading inquisitive mind, I'm doing ok, thanks.


Tracy

It is very difficult understanding people's problems, especially when they arn't clear like physical ailments. But I believe that by trying to understand other's problems, you can understand more of your own.

It's interesting that your fiance hasn't always been this way though.


Tiger

Great post!

It's interesting what you say about creating social anxiety. I know I've always had what you could call an 'avoidance personality' to some extent. Not sure if that was inbuilt in me, or whether it is just something that I've learnt from an early age, that's it's a whole lot easier to run! It's unfortunate that over 20 years down the line I'm just learning that I've been wrong about that for all these years. I got quite a bit of re-learning to do!

Questions still remain as to where the avoidance comes from though. Although that's a very big question, and I guess it's probably already rigourously debated between professionals the world over. Reflecting on my own memories though, I would say that it was maybe possible that I could have gone the other way, although I believe the 'avoidance' side of my personality was the stronger force, and won in the end. It is my belief that both, genetics, and learned behaviour, are big influences on your personality and what you become. I know many scientists will only argue for either one case or another, but I think this is a perfectly logical assumption to include both.

Which then brings you to neural pathways. It has been proven that prolonged activity within individuals can influence the structure of their brains over time. In which case the question of whether it is genetics or learned behaviour becomes more irrelevant, to a degree they are one and the same. The outcome of the physical brain structure is the same regardles. But it can be changed.

I know I said exposure didn't work for me before, but I quickly brushed past that and didn't really explain any of it. Exposing myself to people doesn't work (that doesn't sound right does it [:O] , you know what I mean :D). All I'm saying is, just this type of exposure itself isn't enough, you need to interact with people, you need to overcome those fears of speaking, acting, etc, in front of people. So I guess there is an avenue for improvement, you just need to dig a little deeper to find it.

Your questions of inferiority are something that I've thought a lot about too, and has certainly affected me considerably. Growing up, everyone was an authority figure to me. All of your examples I can relate to. It's something that I have improved quite a lot over the past few years, but it is deep rooted and I still have quite a way to go. I have no doubt that this is a big influence on SA in many people. Unlike you though, I don't think I could pin-point where this inferiority complex comes from in my case. Just a thought, but maybe it has something to do with avoidance again, avoiding responsibility?

Thanks for the reply


Andrew

I think when I related SA to GAD I left quite a lot out of their too. If you keep reading my posts you'll get used to it :D, try not to look into that too much, It's just that I really don't have another way to explain it (words often fail me - apologies for any confusion).

OCD is an interesting take on it, and something I've often looked into myself. Again though, OCD can be another one with no clear defenitions. We label all of these different types of anxiety, yet often they are not all that different from each other and are all related in some form or other. I've posted about my obsessive thoughts on here before, and the general conclusion was that it isn't OCD. But at the same time, I certainly have obsessive thinking patterns. I think one that is probably common within social phobics is the obsessive thinking that goes on after speaking to people. You go over conversations again and again. Did you

[Meg]

''I also feel like I'm being judged

people are watching him and he feels stupid

'he doesn't look right for this shop'!

my insecurity with talking to others

I can't get rid of the base feelings of inferiority''

The words have been used in some of the above comments but I think (IMHO) that they should flash out in Neon - self confidence and self esteem. However I don't think it always applies to the person as a whole but to just a part of them.

Many people who have SA are extremely successful and highly talented in other ways - scientists, IT, authors, composers, artists, researchers, inventers etc

They know they are good at what they do and have terrific self assurance and self confidence that they can do whatever but feel extremely nervous about sharing or being part of a shared team dream as they do not 'believe' they have what it takes.

Often they are self limiters as they believe their own suppositions on their capabilities and thus shy away from anything that expands their circle and so it goes on. They also have distorted thoughts on how others view them and as these are mainly kept to themself they are easy to self fuel as there are few rational realities accepted as they are not discussed openly.

Just as with any other fear - fear of people is easy to start to avoid and then it gets harder and harder. It is driven by your inernal dialogue of ' they're looking at me - wonder what they're thinking - I bet its not good , I know I presented badly and all red and flushed. I'll never be good at this .

I would really encourage anyone in this situation to just for one day or even hour at first to really listen to what you're saying to yourself and report back here what you thought and how that 'made' you respond..

Mico 'Great piece of writing' ' are you being serious ?'
Um hello - Yes !!

One day your self limiting beliefs might dissipate enough to allow yourself to believe us !!

Meg
www.overcominganxiety.co.uk
You cannot conquer fear until you have learned what it is you're afraid of. The enemy is ignorance. Vivian Vance

[clickaway]

This really is a can of worms, and one I have an interest in!

I don't consider I have SA at the moment, and my current fears are health based, but that's just because I've had this disorder for so long (15 months) that the symptoms just get on top of me.

But I do believe that my overall condition, that is when I first had a panic attack 11 years ago was born out of a social anxiety condition, although I never saw it as that. I was probably always shy and self-concious, but that just got worse when I had epilepsy when I was 11. This sparked off an almighty chasm between me and my peer groups as I did not understand at that age, and of course nor did the school kids.

I got a real complex about myself and didn't really have any friends, and this screwed up my 'growing up ' years quite a bit. If I didn't have any friends myself, how could I get a girlfriend - even if I did have the balls to chat one up?

It was this isolation and frustration that I believe sparked off my anxiety.

I am much more confident and chatty now, but I feel I don't have enough in common with many folks for a proper bar-room chat.

My love is photography, and in particular candid shots of people in the street, an art I'm fairly good at (or so I'm told!). People often remark how they would not have the courage to do this, but to me its fairly easy, yet I'm still very self-conscious and easily fearful. But I love doing this so much, I just get on with it. I do sometimes wonder if this type of photography is a kind of substitute for me living alone with very few relationships behind me. I'll let a shrink answer that last point!

Thanks for listening,

Ray

[another_adam]

hey Unhappy_Tiger i take it that the psychotherapy is helping you feel less socially anxious?.

[maxine]

This is a fantastic topic,i have realised that my agoraphobia may well have devolped from SA.
Thinking about how i came to be in the position i am now, it all began with avoiding people who had ridiculed me when i was younger and also a very imposing relationship with my mother, i was told for years that i was't good enough, i could't do anything right ect( i suppose if your told something often enough you begin to believe it) Thankfully i no longer have any contact with such people but trying to believe i deserve a full and happy life is difficult.

I still avoid situations where i feel i may be scrutinsed, but then again i know deep down that i do deserve a happy life ( am i making any sence at all, i think i've picked up the rambling bug from Mico:D).
The point i am trying to make is that sometimes i over compensate my shyness with bravado in the hope that people wont notice how awkward i really am around them.

I dont think i deserve people's attention and respect so the million dollar question, How do you get over that?

Maxine

[mico]

Meg

Very true post! Don't thinnk I really have anything to add to that, you outlined it pretty well.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">I would really encourage anyone in this situation to just for one day or even hour at first to really listen to what you're saying to yourself and report back here what you thought and how that 'made' you respond..</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I read that and though 'well, yeah, I do that quite a lot', as I'm always giving thought to something, why I do the things I do, why other people do the things they do, etc. But then I thought about it a little more and started asking myself if I do that in the context that you're suggesting. The answer would probably be 'no'. So I think I'll give that a try.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">
Mico 'Great piece of writing' ' are you being serious ?'
Um hello - Yes !!</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I really can't see it.

Ok, I can write things at times and think 'well, that's not a bad effort', but I struggle a lot with any kind of verbal or written comunication.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">Don't ask me where I'm going with this, I've lost myself ! I'm just thinking out loud here (again! sorry I did have something to say when I started this, but I forgot exactly what it was now).</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

That wasn't a joke, it wasn't low self esteem, I can easily, and often do, forget what I'm talking about mid-sentance. As you can imagine, it produces a lot of awkward moments, which doesn't help my confidence when speaking, at all. I've often wondered if it is caused by anxiety. I have a few thoughts on it. One thought is that anxiety produces a lack of concentration which in turn leads to a bad short term memory. But I'm really not sure about that. Another thought is, that I get so deep into what I'm thinking right at the present moment that I forget what the bigger picture was. For example, I'm exlpaining something, then I begin giving examples (such as this one :D) and my thought gets so deep into the example that I forget why I was making an example in the first place. If anyone else has these troubles, then I'm very interested in hearing about them.

Anyway....

I accept that there are self esteem issues involved, and if I'm honest, I can often see them hiding in the background somewhere. This whole thing runs around in circles with me, because my trouble communicating encourages my anxiety with communicating, and no doubt my anxiety with communicating encourages my difficulties with communicating.

Thanks anyway


Ray

Pleased to hear that you're getting on well with these issues at the moment. It's an interesting view at the photography though. I too often observe people in the street (or anywhere else for that matter), it always interests me what makes these people tick. Why are these people diffirent from you? why are they the same? As I mentioned above; why do they do the things they do? What enables them to do these things? (I could fill a book up with these questions so I'll stop :D ) But I ask these questions almost everytime I encounter people in any way, shape, or form. I've never considered it to be anything to do with past relationships with me, I guess for me it's more about discovering who I am. At the

[KW]

Hi Mico

Great thread..and totally relate to what you are saying. I too constantly think I'm being judged and feel that whatever I say will sound stupid etc...It's hard work, I know that much!! Energy draining. If I'm having a conversation with one person or in a group I constantly worry about what they are thinking of me. It's very difficult when you're trying to listen to someone!! Like you say Andrew these feelings are embedded..I've been feeling them since I can remember..probably about the age of 7. My problems stem from childhood and it didn't help that my father picked on me amongst other problems aswell.

It's very frustrating because SA stops us from doing things we know we're capable of doing..it just gets in the way. I'd love to become a caseworker at work or manager and could do the job easily but it's the fear of interacting with people at meetings, doing talks etc that stops me. Often we don't get recognised for our skills because we keep them hidden.

I've climbed mount Snowdon, absailed down a cliff, got on a plane and flown to Australia.........but put me in a room with a group of people and ask me to talk and I'll have a full blown panic attack.

I agree with you Andrew finding the right kind of exposure does help. If I feel I've been avoiding eye contact too much with work colleagues I'll make an effort to look at them a bit more if they talk to me. It then gives me more confidence. I used to work as a receptionist at a clothing company and had to talk on a tanoy - my worst night mare!!! But....at the end of the day I always managed to speak because I pushed myself to do it so will always look that as an achievement in my life. You might think that's sad but it means something to me as I'd always been this shy, quiet girl and then I was booming my voice out on a tanoy, lol. I also operated a switchboard so I managed to overcome my fear of talking on the phone and am quite confident on the phone now. My counsellor was totally amazed at the fact I have SA yet I push myself to be in those awkward situtations that I find humiliating and frightening and believe me sometimes I just want to lock myself indoors and avoid them altogether but deep down I know it's not the answer.

KW

'Everyone believes very easily whatever they fear or desire'
- JEAN DE LA FONTAINE

[Tracy68]

Mico
WOW i've only be off the site for a day and look at the responses, and as Maxine said its a fantastic topic and certainly a wide and varied amount of replies.....great :-).
You said it was interesting that John wasn't always this way...which goes to prove like i said before this affects people in so many different ways and some stem from childhood while others it affected them later on in life.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote"></td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">
Many outgoing people can't stand to be on their own, they will avoid it at all costs. Me on the other hand, I have finely toned my skills over the years so that I can go into any situation and just be quiet and ponder over my thoughts.


John has always said as well that he prefers his own company, give him the choice of a night with the lads or a night in with the tv, he'll always pick the later.


KW


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote"></td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">
I've climbed mount Snowdon, absailed down a cliff, got on a plane and flown to Australia.........but put me in a room with a group of people and ask me to talk and I'll have a full blown panic attack.


My John is exactly the same. He's been to Singapore, Malaysia and Bulgaria with a mate and had no problems whatsoever but he just can't handle a group of people.

I'm finding this whole subject very interesting and also extremely helpful. Like i said i still don't always understand him and its nice to hear other opinions and experiences.

Keep it going.

Take care
Tracy
x

[Unhappy_Tiger]

I know exactly what you mean about the avoidance personality. It's a major habit of mine to avoid things, social engagements, put off that trip to the store, etc. Sometimes I avoid things to the point of lowered grades, for example, not raising my hand in class. I guess that's what social anxiety's all about - avoidance and the problem that habitual avoidance causes with the changes of neural passageways.

I really found your comment regarding whether nature or nurture is responsible for this disorder enlightening - I had never actually considered the implications that it didn't matter because the consequences and treatment are one and the same.

I definitely agree with you regarding your view on nature and nurture. I am also of the opinion that both affect a person's development about equally.

Perhaps your inferiority complex did result from an avoidance of responsibility. Maybe all social phobia stems from some kind of inferiority idea in some way - whether it be a habitual avoidance of responsibility or one single event that people either can or can't remember.

Again, thanks for creating this post, it has really got me to thinking.

KW - how have you been? I haven't heard from you lately. Did you get my last PM?

[lisarose]

Hi Mico, well done on such a brilliant and interesting topic. There are so many things i want to say on this that i don't know where to start. I always thought i was an outgoing person, life an soul of the party sort of girl until I had my first panic attack in December 2000. my son was 5 months old and I had had a bad pregnancy, constantly worried that something would go wrong etc, I already had a six year old daughter from a previous relationship and had had been treated quite badly by boyfriends, had a brief marriage (8weeks) and been dumped by my husband with no explanation and suffered alot of mental and physical abuse by him. When i met my son's father I thought I had found the man of my dreams and the baby was the icing on the cake after such a bad relationship history, everything went downhill from that first panic attack and I have never been the same person since. The doctors put it down to post natal depression and severe anxiety and i was admitted to a physchiatric mother and baby unit for assessment, I was released after 5 days and diagnosed as suffering Panic disorder, GAD and post-natal depression and just sent home with a cocktail of pills which made me sucidal. I was afraid to go out of the house and was diagnosed with agorophobia something else to add to my C.V!!! I didn't go out of the house for 8 months only to the doctors or psychiatrist appointment, I didn't want to talk to anyone, see anyone and just became totally withdrawn. I even had social workers becoming involved and was convinced they would take my kids away because I was an unfit mother. Needless to say this didn't happen as at no time did I resent my kids or felt I was putting them at risk, I always looked after them and loved them as this was't the issue it was more of a case of hating myself and what i had become and being frustrated with the fact I didn't know what was really wrong with me, why it had happened to me or how I could get better. I convinced myself that I had got some serious illness that the doctors weren't picking up on. Anyway I hope you don't think I am waffling on as I find it hard to put into words and it is difficult to explain everything that happened as it would fill a book, The point I am trying to make is that it is hard to distinguish between anxiety disorders as often they are all interlinked and even the proffessionals cannot give a definate diagnosis. After everything I had gone through, my confidence was at an all time low and i found it hard to talk to people, even people I had known for years let alone new people, it would fill me with dread if someone I knew approached me in the street as i was scared i would say the wrong thing and they would think I was stupid and I would have to explain my anxiety disorder so I tried to avoid people as much as possible. I missed out on so much, even my childrens birthday parties, family parties etc becuase I didn't feel comfortable in aroom full of people and would start to get panicky. I started to drink alot to calm my anxieties and to try and feel a bit more confident and this helped in the short term and i was able to mix with people again but only if I had a a few drinks beforehand but this just made by panic attacks worse as I would always end up going over the top on the alcohol. It took a couple of years to realize that i couldn't keep using alcohol as my crutch and last August I stopped drinking and tried new meds which made me feel alot better and eased my anxiety for a while. I even started college part time which was a real breakthrough for me., but I had to get to know myself all over again. I constantly self anaylize myself and wonder who the real me is and wether I will ever be completly free of this illness and I drive myself mad at times. I have learned alot from this website and also from studying my psychology course as we have done all about anxiety disorders, childhood psychology, mental illness and the different psychological theories but I am still no closer to finding an answer as to why this has happened to me and wonder if I ever will. I still

[MRC]

I find that on the rare ocasions I do go out in public or at family gatherings I just can't be myself.

I am either too loud or can't cope with anybody at all.

There is never any middle ground with me

[mico]

Apologies for not posting for a while...but unfortunately, I'm back

I started this topic with the intention of clearing a few things up, and making this whole SA thing a bit more managible(sp?). i.e. A little simpler and easier to understand. Yet in true mico fashion I think I've gone all the way to the opposite end of the spectrum and managed to strike up debates about nature vs nurture, amongst other things. And now, to top it all off, I'm wondering if I have SA at all! [:O]

But still, don't know about you, but I'm finding it interesting and educational, so I'll carry on...

KW

A few things stood out in your post.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">If I'm having a conversation with one person or in a group I constantly worry about what they are thinking of me. It's very difficult when you're trying to listen to someone!!</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

It is very difficult, but I've learnt over time that if you can build up the focus and concentration towards these things (such as listening) then it can be a big help in pushing out the negative thoughts that create this type of thinking in the first place. There's only room in there for so many thoughts at once. It's certainly a vicious circle, but you can get out of it with a lot of hard work.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote"> My problems stem from childhood and it didn't help that my father picked on me amongst other problems aswell.</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

It's unfortunate that you had to suffer from this problem, but when I read that, it kind of reinforced the fact that these problems can stem from a loss of confidence through incidence. If that's the case, it stands to reason that the lost confidence can be built up again through practice.

Then you go on to talk about building this confidence up, which is great! I found your post quite inspiring, the fact that you're pushing to get past all these problems and that you've made all of these achievments. One of the main reasons I started this topic because SA is such a gray area, people have different definitions of it, and no doubt people have different experiences of it too. It appears to me that people will often give advice on coping with panic attacks and other symptoms of anxiety, but rarely have I come across really good, or more to the point, clear advice on how to deal with the causes of SA/shyness/low self-esteem/etc. For example, I've searched and searched for advice concerning self-consciousness, but found none. This is why I wanted to get a topic going and really get to know about SA, it's causes, related issues, and more importantly, know where to start in the recovery process. Beacuse, quite frankly, I've always struggled to carry out the advice given to me in this area. I think the internet is a great resource for us, and we should use it to its fullest potential. I mean, before the internet, what would we do? We'd be feeling like freaks, like we were the only people who felt this way. But we can talk with people from all over the world and discuss ideas, give encouragement, advice, and support...and learn how to deal with SA! Hopefully. That's my intention anyway. Two minds are better than one, I'm sure when we have a whole message board of minds, then we can make some sense of this, and start getting better! With that positivity and the knowledge of how to do it, then I we are well on the way.

Thanks KW, as you can see, your post has made me quite positive! [8D]


Tracy

I'm glad that you're finding this topic helpful, an

[Tracy68]

I just wondered if i could ask a quick question, like i said i'm trying to learn about this and looking for easier ways to deal with it when John does finally finish work and move back down here.
Does anyone put a barrier up and not let anyone get close to them? Sorry if this sounds an odd question and i'm totally useless at trying to explain myself (comes out all wrong).
Its just that even though John and I are getting married and I love him to bits and vice versa i know that he has trouble letting people get to close to him. He always tells me that if he lets people in that makes him vunerable and he'll get hurt. Deep down as well i think he finds it hard to believe that people (me really) actually truly cares and loves him. I know alot of it is to do with his past and i understand that others may not be like this. Just curious to see if anyone was.
Sorry if this sounds silly but sometimes you know what you mean and feel but find it hard to find the right words.
Tracy
x

[mico]

Hi Tracy

I'm not sure if your question directly relates to SA, it may have connections, but I think the same thing could probably be said for many people who don't have SA.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">He always tells me that if he lets people in that makes him vunerable and he'll get hurt.</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I think that can be true of many people, regardless of SA. Although there has to be a degree of negative thinking to believe that, which as we all know is a trait of anxiety. But you don't need to suffer from anxiety to think that way, there is a lot of truth in that too.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote"> Deep down as well i think he finds it hard to believe that people (me really) actually truly cares and loves him.</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

What you say here could be more connected with SA, or more specifically, low self-esteem. But again this could happen to many people. You do say 'think' though too, maybe you should ask him.

Sorry, I haven't exactly got any great wisdom on this one, and I wouldn't really say I've experienced it myself, but I just thought I'd post and offer my thoughts. It is my opinion though that the type of behaviour you describe could come from all walks of life, regardless of anxiety. Like I said before though, there could be a connection, but I just don't know.

Probably not a very useful reply, but that's a couple of thoughts.

mico

[Tracy68]

Mico
Thanks for your reply. I realise that to some degree that we all are wary of getting hurt etc etc i guess it's because John suffers with SA that i wondered if this anxiety made things slighty worse.
To be honest i could sit here and write pages and like you say whether they are all connected to SA would pobably be an impossibility to say.
Think i'll just keep reading the posts and try to absorb as much information as possible.
Many thanks
Tracy
x

[Unhappy_Tiger]

Tracy -

I know completely what you mean, and understand exactly what your husband is feeling. My best friend and I are what we like to call "intimately phobic" -- we can't stand the thought of being intimately involved with someone and find it hard to express affection (she's a little worse than I am in this category, but I still feel exactly what your husband is feeling). I have social anxiety disorder, and I know she does have problems with social anxiety, so I'm willing to bet that simply through observing the correlation between social anxiety and intimateness phobia, there is indeed a connection. It's almost as if I feel like its impossible that anyone could really care for me in that way, and that through sheer isolation, I'll be safest. I won't have to entertain anyone, I won't get caught and trapped in a net of anxiety, and I won't get hurt. It's just not worth the trouble.

[delta]

Hi mico
Thanks for starting this thread. I was going to start a new one but having read through most of this one I thought I would reply to this one instead. I hope I don't bore everyone senseless but it will help me just to get all this down.

I found this site a couple of weeks ago, I am so glad I did. I find it hard to explain how I feel most of the time but I think a lot of my anxieties overlap each other...... I feel so low most of the time. Finding this site has made me realise that others do feel the same and I'm not alone. I have always referred to my SA as shyness, [8)] I was always told I was 'shy' as a child so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy I suppose. I have lived with the 'shy' title nearly all my life. I have never had any confidence and as I've got older it has got worse, worse still after becoming a mother.

I started hitting the bottle in my teens to give me the confidence to talk to boys, it was like a magical cure! This is how I've coped really through my life. In social situations I HAVE to have a drink. I've had to manage without drink for a week so far (doctor's orders after an operation) so I know I can live without it. I rebelled as a teenager and did some things I’m not proud of, my parents only seemed to notice me when I behaved this way……………

I keep trying to look for answers as to why I am the way I am. I don’t want to meet people, my friends have all deserted me my parents just think I am ‘in a funny mood’ and prefer to stay away, they don’t know how I feel and I can’t tell them. :(

We have increasing money problems which doesn’t help, I am so lonely, I dread any social situation, I avoid them when possible. I don’t like people getting up close to me and talking, I think they are judging me, I feel I am not good enough for anyone, I feel I will say something stupid. After talking to people I spend hours analysing the conversation. I think that other people are avoiding me and worry what I have done to upset them. I hate shops. I think everyone is watching me.....

I am so sorry this has turned into a garbled long post but I find it so hard to explain how I feel and I just cannot make sense of it, my head is swimming most of the time.

If you have got this far thanks for listening.
Love Donna
x
:D

[Tracy68]

Unhappy-Tiger


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">It's almost as if I feel like its impossible that anyone could really care for me in that way, and that through sheer isolation, I'll be safest. I won't have to entertain anyone, I won't get caught and trapped in a net of anxiety, and I won't get hurt. It's just not worth the trouble</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

That is exactly how he feels, he'd rather go for the easy life and not get involved anywhere. Like i said in an earlier post he isn't great at communicating and this is where people think him rude. Glad you found better words to describe it than i did lol. The thing is with John he never used to be like this until something happened that completely shattered any trust for people, lost confidence and turned him into some hard person if you like. Even though i do know he has a soft side to him because i've seen it, but when i mention it he goes all on the defensive saying oh well i'm not like that really....just the drink talking or some silly excuse.

Delta


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">I started hitting the bottle in my teens to give me the confidence to talk to boys, it was like a magical cure! </td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

Isn't it amazing what alcohol can do to boost your confidence. Stick my John in a room of say four people and he'll clam up and not hardly speak at all. But give him a few drinks and he'll go to a party and walk in a room full of complete strangers.
Unfortunately certain members of my family now class him as some kind of alcoholic because when they do see him at like a family gathering, he'll have a drink in his hand, but its his way of dealing with everyone.

Tracy
x

[mico]

Hello peeps

Tiger

You have some points there about being intimately phobic. To me it is a complex structure of phobias going all the way into the abyss, and considering I overslept today and feel a little groggy, I don't think I'm capable of going that far down at the moment. What I will say though, is that I don't think it's a compulsory symptom of SA. Not for me anyway. Although at the same time chest pains arn't a compulsory symptom of anxiety, but are still very often caused by it.

Tracy

I hope you've found some help in understanding this here. Any more questions then feel free to post them.

Delta

Glad you're finding the site helpful so far.

Our anxieties often do overlap each other, and that's where it begins to become complicated, none of this is straight forward.

I was always (and still am) labelled with 'shyness' too, so I can relate to exactly what you're saying there. It is very difficult (and frustrating) when you can't express yourself the way that you would like to. Which is the reason that I have been looking into this lately with an ever increasing attention towards it.

If you have any specific questions, do feel free to ask.



Besides that, this thread seems to have fizzled somewhat, which is a shame because I could have debated this for weeks [:P]. Although maybe it's a good thing, if I'm sat here debating for weeks, then I'm not sure I'd be making much progress. Any more replies still apreciated.


A strange thing has been happening to me these past few weeks though (I'm predicting that there may well be another thread posted in the very near future when the little people in my head come forth and begin speaking) [:P]


mico

[seh1980]

oh my God, there are some very long, hard-core posts under this topic so just to let you all know now that I'm not even going to try to compete..I don't suffer from social anxiety myself but have found a few things to be very interesting..

The first thing that struck me (not sure if this is at all relevant) is that for people who suffer from social anxiety, you sure have LOADS to say. Does this mean anything?? Not sure..

Mico - you say that when you are out in public, you feel like you are being watched. I think that we ALL feel that, at least I do (**** - does that mean I DO suffer from social anxiety??) We are all scared of whether we are saying, doing, wearing the right things, etc. It's the way of the world today. I think the only difference between people is that some of us know how to deal with it/ignore it and others seem to let it get to them a lot more...but I do think that's it's something we all suffer from..

About learning how to deal with social anxiety, I think that the key is 'confidence'. Confident people do not suffer from social anxiety (please correct me if I'm wrong). I also think that confidence is something we can work on and build up. It may sound silly but positive thinking is a good way of doing it. Telling ourselves 100 times a day that we are a great human being can really work cos pretty soon your brain will start to believe it. There are loads of tapes, etc out there that are for building confidence - maybe they might work??

Sarah :D

[mico]

Hi Sarah

Some good points there.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">The first thing that struck me (not sure if this is at all relevant) is that for people who suffer from social anxiety, you sure have LOADS to say. Does this mean anything?? Not sure..</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I'm still laughing at that one. :D

It is a good point though. As I've been looking through all this, I've found that many people who suffer from SA are big thinkers. I'm not sure exactly how many people fit into that categopry though, I shall have to look into it some more. It stands to reason that if we don't socially interact as we would like to, or we put up this shield of living in our own minds, then we are going to have a lot of thought processes going on in there. Not necesarilly compulsory to SA I wouldn't have thought, but likely. But if we've got all this thought locked up, then I guess it's going to be released somewhere eventually (sorry guys :D).

I'm sure I had something else to say about that, but I forget, like I said before, I overslept today so I'm not too sharp at the mo.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">Mico - you say that when you are out in public, you feel like you are being watched. I think that we ALL feel that, at least I do (**** - does that mean I DO suffer from social anxiety??) We are all scared of whether we are saying, doing, wearing the right things, etc. It's the way of the world today. I think the only difference between people is that some of us know how to deal with it/ignore it and others seem to let it get to them a lot more...but I do think that's it's something we all suffer from..</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I'm thinking about this one...

Using anxiety as an example, everyone has anxiety. Everyone feels the effects of it on a daily basis, the positive and the negative. Yet there is only a small proportion (us) who are actually labelled with having anxiety as an ilness. Again, you could go deep into this one (I could go deep into a conversation about the flavour of pot noodles!) but I'm not on the ball today so I won't. But I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. It's the exact same thing whether you're talking about anxiety or self consciousness. What the exact difference is, such as how you deal with it, etc, is where it goes deeper, that could be debated. The main difference is the severity I think, same with anxiety. When I go out, I have this feeling constantly, it doesn't fade, it doesn't leave me, it's always there. If anyone wants to take that debate up then please do, but I'm going to leave it for now (although I may well continue it when my brain is fully functioning again).

As for confidence, I believe it can be built up too. Await the next post [8D]

Thanks


mico

[Andy26]

Hi,

Great thread Mico - I've read a lot that I can identify with and thought I'd add a few thoughts - sorry if I'm repeating...

I can certainly identify the confusion - and like Mico I have not been to a doctor and been diagnosed but I feel social anxiety is the problem I have. I have often wondered though if it is just me and am I just different? To explain - I am 27 and while over the last 10 yrs or so people of my age are supposed to be enjoying themselves at parties, clubs and pubs etc I have actively avoided these places. I don't know if that is because I HAVE social anxiety or because I just don't LIKE these places. I'm not sure how relevant this point is to any of you but I'd be interested to hear.

Anyway I totally agree that the whole confidence/self esteem issue is the main root cause and I'm sure my natural shyness has only served to exacerbate the problem. Gradually over the years I have withdrawn from having a social life and stayed in my safe zone. This is mainly due to some bad panic attack experiences I have had with eating in public in the past and it is difficult to socialise without food being involved.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that I am finding it difficult to overcome my social anxiety because a part of me doesn't actually want to do the things I am avoiding. It's just that I don't seem to fit in with how 'society' expects me to be (i.e. I don't like going out and getting drunk, going to hot crowded clubs etc). So I suppose the answer is, as has been said above, positive thinking to boost self esteem and confidence and try to be comfortable with who you are.

Anyway - sorry it's a bit of a random post (although that seems to be the theme here!) I'd be interested in what anybody else thinks.

Andy (confused!)

[mico]

Hi Andy

That's a perfectly valid post.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">I can certainly identify the confusion - and like Mico I have not been to a doctor and been diagnosed but I feel social anxiety is the problem I have. I have often wondered though if it is just me and am I just different? To explain - I am 27 and while over the last 10 yrs or so people of my age are supposed to be enjoying themselves at parties, clubs and pubs etc I have actively avoided these places. I don't know if that is because I HAVE social anxiety or because I just don't LIKE these places. I'm not sure how relevant this point is to any of you but I'd be interested to hear.</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I can identify with the confusion there, and I guess what you really have to do, is ask yourself why you don't like these places? I mean, is it just because you would feel uncomfortable out in these situations around all the people, or is it really because you simply don't like them. I'm probably not been much help here, since you have already asked that question yourself, just in other words. But what I'm really trying to say, is that through experience and thought, I have realised that I often state that I don't like things, simply because I don't feel comfortable doing them. But if I'm honest with myself, there is often a part of me deep down that would really like to just freely be able to do these things witout fear. In which case, I would probably enjoy them.

Fair enough, I don't think that I will ever be hugely confident and as sociable as some people are. I believe that there will always be a shy side to my personality, whether I'm recovered or not. I don't really see anything wrong with that, at the end of the day, we all have individual personality. And in that respect, maybe clubs and pubs and such may never be my favourite activity, but I believe that it is possible to go into these situations without any ridiculous fear and enjoy it every now and again. I mean, I can relate to the situation you're in now, sometimes I can get very annoyed when I have difficulties socialising, and obviously that doesn't make for much enjoyment when in these situations. But if you can overcome this to the point where you can strike up a conversation, or just socially interact at a basic level without much trouble, then more enjoyment is going to come about from the situation. Although I could say quite a lot on our 'drinking culture', and no, it's not something I would ever do every weekend, but the freedom to do it when I felt the urge would be nice.


<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote"> This is mainly due to some bad panic attack experiences I have had with eating in public in the past and it is difficult to socialise without food being involved.</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I guess you already know the answer to this one, but it isn't easy. Then again, none of this is easy. It's the basic story of going out there and doing it, as Meg always says, time without incidence is the key to success.

[quote]<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">I suppose the point I am trying to make is that I am finding it difficult to overcome my social anxiety because a part of me doesn't actually want to do the things I am avoiding. It's just that I don't seem to fit in with how 'society' expects me to be (i.e. I don't like going out and getting drunk, going to hot crowded clubs etc). So

[delta]

<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">

The first thing that struck me (not sure if this is at all relevant) is that for people who suffer from social anxiety, you sure have LOADS to say. Does this mean anything?? Not sure..

Mico - you say that when you are out in public, you feel like you are being watched. I think that we ALL feel that, at least I do (**** - does that mean I DO suffer from social anxiety??) We are all scared of whether we are saying, doing, wearing the right things, etc. It's the way of the world today. I think the only difference between people is that some of us know how to deal with it/ignore it and others seem to let it get to them a lot more...but I do think that's it's something we all suffer from..


<div align="right">Originally posted by seh1980 - 17 March 2005 : 17:50:26</div id="right">
</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

I would agree with the having loads to say, I find I can communicate far easier via email etc :D

but I have to disagree that everyone feels that they are being watched, I know this because I have asked people that I am close enough to. When you have SA the being watched feeling is all-consuming, I tend to think that EVERYONE is watching me when I am out and asking themselves why I am doing certain things.
Donna

[KW]

Hi Delta

Having SA myself I constantly think people are watching me and analysing...from sitting in a meeting at work, talking amongst friends, even being with family, being served at the checkout in a supermarket / clothes shop, walking along the road - people driving by in cars, buses etc....

I told my mum the other night about this actually and she didn't realise how bad it is and even though she gets a little self conscious it's not to the degree I do, so there is a difference with having SA and it is constant.

KW

'Everyone believes very easily whatever they fear or desire'
- JEAN DE LA FONTAINE

[Meg]

Nigel -

You're are always extremely welcome to reactivate anything you feel you'd like to

Isn't this *but I think for me at least, a large part is due to that fear of what others might think of me again* a variation on anticipatory anxiety- in tead of what if the sky should fall on me ..what if someone stares at me and thinks I'm... xyz.
The reality being that it's unlikely that you'll get more than a passing glance and instant assessment that everyone does to everyone - nice legs, big nose, pretty dress, good bum that is also instantly forgotten by all in the course of a day.

As we're never going to know what each person thought in their instant assessment it cannot harm us and therefore is of no consequence at all and the severity and anguish comes from self criticalness alone as you say Nigel - your thoughts reflected but before leaving your own personal space, never mind from some one else.

I know Charlie is writing a page on self esteem. If you would like to contribute a page on self image we would be delighted but please would you make it original for this site and not a duplicate from elsewhere.

Meg
www.anxietymanagementltd.com

Watch your thoughts, they become your words...
Watch your words, they become your actions... Watch your actions, they become your habits... Watch your habits, they become your character... Watch your character, it becomes your destiny...

[Alice]

<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">
How some people are naturally inclined to be motivated to go for their goals in life - are drawn to them like a magnet, whilst others tend to be motivated only to avoid something that they don’t value or don’t want to occur – like like-poles of a magnet repel. Both are good in moderation, but some people are extreme. Those who’re blindly focused on their goals achieve an awful lot, but often suffer spectacular and avoidable failures. On the other hand, people like us avoid all those mistakes but very rarely get going to actually achieve anything.
<div align="right">Originally posted by Nigel - 01 July 2005 : 21:50:22</div id="right">
</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

Hey, just wanted to say how much sense this made, id never thought of it being that way before. Im definitely an avoidant type, i knew that, but i'd never thought of myself as not having goals or not striving to achieve them, but thinking about it it makes so much sense! So have made a list of things that i want to have done by the end of the summer and will concentrate on that instead of avoiding things i dont want to do.

Thanks!