Read some useful info on thoughts

[Carol27]

It says our anxious thoughts pop up from our subconsious mind powered by electrical energy, neurons in the brain. When anxious we latch onto them and this gives the thought more electrical energy and attention which causes the subscious to think the thought is important to us, also because its a scary thought we immediately get a strong emotional reaction to it which then tells the subconscious, oh they think this is very importnat i'll send it up again right now, which is does, again we react and it sends it again. We have to try to let the thought be there without adding this 2nd fear then the opposite happens and the subscious mind says oh they didn't find it so important this time i'll only send it up for 2 hours this time instead of the usual 4, then the more we can tolerate the discomfort of it the time it comes lessens and lessens. It says it doesn't go immediately as it is still fuelled by its own electrical energy but once that burns out it melts away back to the subscious and doesn't bother coming back. People with anxiety can have anxious thoughts, fears that don't make any sense, simply bizarre, virtually anything the mind can conceive. In a sensitised state it is impossible not to look at the thought and give it all your attention, the thought becomes stuck because your emotional reaction is its sticking power. We have to have a change of attitude, NEVER, EVER, EVER try to stop or push away an unwanted thought this gives it the attention it craves, this now is the hard part and believe me i'm trying to do this and not doing too well, let the thougt be there, invite it in willingly , say ok i know your part of anxiety, stay as long as you like, i don't care. This takes practice but what happens is it starts to lose its sticking power, you over time begin to react less emotionally to the thought, your mind isn't drawn to it, it becomes unstuck and fades away, this takes practice . Try not to get into a battle of logic in your head, if you try to convince yourself of how illogical your thoughts are you will become very frustrated, step back mentally and say i need to be addressing my symptoms of anxiety , not my fearful thoughts, you only believe the thoughts because the symptoms your anxiety creates are so powerful and disturbing you get distracted by them.Lets look at your fears, it may seem you are afraid of a particular thing or thought but really you are afraid of the feelings you get when you think of them so YOU ARE NOT FRIGHTENED BY YOUR THOUGHTS, YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN, YOU ARE FRIGHTENED BY THE STRONG EMOTIONAL REACTION, without the reaction you wouldn't be frightened of the thought at all.

Now this is info i've been told and found and although i see the logic in it i am myself having trouble putting it into practice with my own bizarre irrational thought and high panic reaction when i think it but i am going to practise, i always got the impression that it was the content of the thought that scared me but we all get the same reaction in our bodies to whatever it is that our anxiety latches onto, i hope this helps, i've not had much success with it today as i've had high anxiety but i'm going to try it, its worked for so many people, hope you find this information useful, love Carol xx

[TRIXIETINKERBELL]

thank you carol, everything you say makes sense

[jill]

WOW, Carol, :D:hugs:

You have found something that explaines it soooooo well. As I said to you, there is something out there that will explaine things more. I am not that good at explaining things :doh: LOL I know what I mean, but getting it down on paper :whistles::doh: LOL

This is great info, I sat there nodding my head, Mmmm, but we all know, its not easy changing the way we think, BUT IT CAN be done.

Carol, rememeber, this will not work over night, it will take time, keep trying hun, YOU WILL win in the end :bighug1:

YOU TAKE CARE

LOVE JILLLXXX

[Yvonne]

Carol

Good post. It's very much like what Claire Weekes' tells us to do when she says "don't try not to think the thoughts let them come".... etc. She says don't be frightened of the thoughts etc. The thoughts don't have to be those really frightening ones that some people get - I call those "intrusive thoughts". I think you willknow the ones I'm talking about, a couple of people have mailed recently with very very scary thoughts. The thought doesn't have to be an ultra scary or weird thought, thoughts like "I might panic in here" - can ruin a trip to town that you have been enjoying .... until you got that thought.

Now this not trying to get rid of the thought stuff actually kicks CBT up the bum a bit doesn't it. Cbt tells us to challenge the thoughts - so if I understand correctly, if we challenge those thoughts we are trying to rid ourselves of them in a way/or change them?

I hope people can understand this post, I actually found it difficult to explain what I mean.

It is the physical sensations which the thought causes which is the problem of course, --- why is it when we felt normal (the person we used to be) that we did not react to our thoughts with emotion. I just don't understand this. People not suffering anx can have a worrying thought and it won't affect them as it does us.

This sensitisation we suffer with - how do we de-sensitise? If we are to stay with the thought should we keep repeating the thought to ourselves in order to de-sensitise? We endeavour to de-sensitise to places/thing we fear by grasping them and continually doing them. Maybe it is the same with thoughts just keep flooding ourselves with them until we have no reaction at all.

Where did you find your information - I'd like to have a read sometime.

[djvtech]

Yeah basically, a repeated thought or something with a strong emotion attached to it imprints a nerual pathway into the neurons called a neuronet. Neuronets attach to others and that's why, say something like a sudden feeling of disiness can cause a person to get a panic attack. It's because the thought of disiness is wired with the thought of panic neuron so when one neuron fires, so does the other one that is connected to it. It is also said that "neurons that fire together, wire together." The opposite can be done, "neurons that don't fire together, don't wire together." They will after time, begin to lose connection to each other and "de-imprint" themselves from the brain. The less you think of or do something, the less it will wire, and even un-wire in your brain.

Another example of neuronets are if you think of an apple, what else does that make you think of? red, green, sweet, juicy, hard, crunchy. All those associations are neurons in the brain that are formed into a neuronet.

[Bill]

That "emotional reaction" is what I call "emotional stress" because the irrational thought creates stress and it's the anxious symptoms that result that we're trying to stop.

One thing I think not been said is why we think these irrational thoughts. I feel these thoughts are created by our past experiences which have been left undealt with so we become "sensitive" to them.

Often these irrational thoughts will develop into OCD so that we actually have to repeat actions each time we think a frightening thought. It's that first hurdle which is so hard but so important to overcome.

I used to suffer terrible OCD so that I was constantly repeating actions because of frightening thoughts. The frightening thoughts kept coming back because I allowed them to control me. One day though I decided to not repeat an action and from then I managed to stop all my other OCD issues. At the same time, although I would still get the thoughts on occasions because of triggers that would create a memory, because I had become unafraid of them, I was able to release them as soon as they arrived so the anxiety they previously caused stopped.

As you say Carol, it's learning not to allow them to control you or even attempting to control them but instead allow them in and out without reacting to them. Once that first hurdle is overcome, you prove to yourself there was actually nothing to fear other than your own fear of the anxious feelings (fear of feeling fear). Your confidence then builds as the thoughts lose their power.:hugs:

[Carol27]

Hi thanks for all replies, even though i understand the logic of it my worry is that even if i do practice it and get rid of anxiety that the thoughts will keep coming, if they are part of the anxiety should i view them as a symptom which will go when anxiety does? love Carol x

[daisymaisy]

Hi Carole

Thanks for your really useful info. It really makes sense and I'm going to keep it and read it whenever I feel anxious. Hope I can put it into practice.

Good luck to you too.

Daisy xx

PS info in replies was useful too - thanks guys! x

[jill]

Hi Carol :D:hugs:

You have had great replies, as always from this great site :yesyes:

I know you a still struggling to understand all this, but even this struggle, IS a symtpom of anxiety.

YES hun, see the thought as a symptom of anxiety because IT IS, when the anxiety goes so does how important this thought is, IT becomes, NOT important anymore, so, you have no need to think it, no need to fear it. We go back, ( when better) to normal mode and having thoughts coming and going without even giving them a thought Mmmm does hat make sense.

As you know, I am panic, high anxiety free because of this great site. In my life right now, its a stressfull time ( will not go into why) but, I do feel from time to time, anxiety symptoms, I do feel that these symptoms are, what I call NORMAL, everyone would get them if they were going through what I am going through. Someone who has never suffered pa's, high anxiety, I do believe they would not even notice them, or would just say, ohh its this, its that and not give them another thought.

I feel, I do notice them being there ONLY because, I know what they are, THEY DON'T bother me AT ALL, BUT, they are normal feelings and thoughts for what I am going through. I can't expect to feel nothing, this would mean if I felt nothing or did not have some concerns, that I don't care. This site has tought me sooo well, all info behind the forums and all threads, even this one helps me understand things MORE, even though I am better. I still feel there is more to learn.

As I said to you Carol, it IS dame hard working on anxiety, the illness, (Mrs anxiety) gets in the way all the time with her negative, knowing and understand how to work on things is DAME HARD, but YOU keep doing, keep trying, read all you can AND YOU WILL win the the end, YOU WILL get there.

YOU TAKE CARE:hugs:

LOVE JILLXXX

[Yvonne]

Interesting thread.

djvtech - so we get rid of the thoughts then? I'm confused - don't hang on to the thought to fear it less?

Carol, I can't remember the thoughts you are having (guess they were in earlier posts) - if they are intrusive real scary ones they will go when the anxiety lessens.

[Carol27]

Hi Yvonne they are really terrifying bizarre ones, don't kniw where they cam from maybe tv etc but the first one was i'm possessed then i was at my daughters the other day tv was on i wasn't watching but in the car on the way home the thought i am a werewolf popped in there from nowhere and scared me to death, firstly because of the bizarre content and secondly as it seemed so real and caused such great fear and panic, then i got more upset as i rang a helpline and she said she'd never heard such wierd thoughts before and they may not go even when anxiety does as they may be imprinted on my brain. best wishes, Carol x

[Yvonne]

Carol

I'm so sorry of course I remember - please excuse me for that.

They will go Carol. You will look backon those thoughts as completely ridiculous which they are when you feel a little better.

[Captain America]

interesting thread. one thing to add if i may.

cbt is designed to challenge the automatic thoughts that are irrational. like, i have a rash, so that means i have aids. cbt helped me a lot, but in the end it comes up short when you can't explain away a thought as irrational.

this is where claire's technique comes in handy. i use both. there are some times when i'm having a chest pain or something, so i get up and jog in place and say, 'okay if i am having a heart attack, this will finish me off, so here goes nothing', and other times when i might say, 'this is not a heart attack. it's just gas'.

i think it's just nice to have more tools in the toolbox so to speak

[Don]

This forum has really helped me understand the thoughts. I to have suffered from scary irrational thoughts during. At first I would react very strongly to them and it seemed to get worse. I have had anxiety symptoms on and off for the past 10 yrs. But about 2 months ago, I woke up from a stressfull dream and the next 4 days was extremely fatigued, and after that all the symptoms that have been posted began to creep in. I am a type a driven, ambitious male. This to is common for anxiety. Anyway, I have these thoughts come and go since the event. What do you all say about how long these symptoms last?

For me they symptoms would go in a couple of weeks after some good rest. This time it has lasted almost 2 months. Any advice?

Don

[keepemlaughing]

Good post Carol. I agree with alot that you had to say.
Sheryl

[Dazza]

Hi Carol :hugs:

Thanks for sharing that with us.

I had heard about that theory before, i think from other postings on here.

I will give it a try... but as you say it's a bit of a challenge. but everything worth having in this life (in this case, having our lives back!!) is worth fighting for right?! :)

Thanks again for sharing that with us. I liked the way you described about the thoughts coming up as elecetrical energy, and when we latch onto them, the subconcious sends them back to us..interesting way to look at it, and hopefully it will help me work on it.