Automatic Thoughts

[Anna C]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone can help. I feel anxious and often have panic attacks, but I am never aware of my automatic thoughts.
My counsellor thinks that as I have been like this for so long, that I am no longer aware of them and I just go straight to panic or feeling anxious.
I have been doing exposure and although actually being in the shops is getting easier, I find it really hard and scary to leave the house before hand, it takes me a long time just to get outside the front door!
Before my last CBT session my counsellor mentioned doing some work on my negative thoughts. When I went last week I told her that I had been waiting in queues, and she asked if I thought people were staring at me, often I do think this as I have social anxiety, but this time I didn't think that and managed to distract myself.
Although then she never mentioned doing any work on negative thoughts and I wonder if she is waited for me to tell her what mine are so she can go through any thinking errors with me.
Now I'm worried that she may have thought that was odd, she did then ask how often I had been going and I have been to Asda quite often lately. But if I'm panicky and feeling anxious a lot I must be having negative thoughts, I just never seem to be able to remember them.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about or does this sound really strange?

Anna x

[freakedout]

Hi Anna,

I too have panic attacks, anxiety and avoidance behaviour and for a long time could not say what I was afraid of. I think the thoughts I have when I start panicking are limited to 'Oh my god' when I feel a sudden fear, and 'I need to get out (of here)'. I dont have thoughts about dying because I know I will not die, I sometimes think about choking if I get the symptoms of a blocked throat or difficulty breathing, but generally speaking I don't think about what I think when I am panicking. Some people find this difficult to understand, but when you have had panic attacks for some time and obviously survive them thought processes are perhaps different than they would have been initially. Apparently I have a fear of the fear of having panic attacks, but I dont consciously think 'I am afraid of how awful I will feel if I have a panic attack'. I hope that makes sense.

If you were to ask what automatic thoughts I had in general, I could list loads, I have a lot of negative automatic thoughts due to low self esteem and depression. Sometimes my therapist points these out as they occur but generally they are now second nature and I don't even realise just how negative I am at times.

So in answer to your question yes I think I know what you are talking about, but your counsellor probably wants to try to get to the underlying thoughts to try to rationalise them for you and perhaps help you to take a different perspective on how you think. Gosh I am confusing myself now!!

Good luck with it, it sounds like you are doing well, and yes I do find distraction can help a little.

Take care

Freaky

[Bill]

Although then she never mentioned doing any work on negative thoughts and I wonder if she is waited for me to tell her what mine are so she can go through any thinking errors with me.

She may never ask what your hidden negative thoughts are because I wouldn't be surprised if she has a good idea what they are anyway. I think she may well focus more on showing you ways how to stop the automatic process.

Imagine this.....you're walking along a street when suddenly a dog runs out of a garden and starts growling and snarling at you. How does your mind react? You immediately feel fear but do you hear your mind telling you what you're actually afraid of? No, because a growling dog triggers an automatic fear because instinct tells you he could attack and bite you.

It's the same in a crowded situation. This is what often happens - some time ago you may have experienced a panic attack in a "certain" situation. Maybe you'd been feeling under alot of stress, had a bad night, were just simply feeling bad that day etc but whatever the actual cause, the situation caused you to feel trapped due to the stress you were feeling at that time. This then created a feeling of needing to escape which then induced your panic attack.

You then don't remember any particular thought that created this panic attack because the panic was induced by pure stress that you were experiencing at that time.

However, your mind has then learnt a new automatic response to crowded situations because your mind has stored a memory (a new fear) so whenever you are in a certain situation your mind then starts the incorrect process without actually thinking anything. Your mind has learnt that certain situations are " a growling dog" so immediately makes you feel fear.

Your counsellor will be working with you to repair the damage caused by the stress and the panics it induced by showing you ways to counteract the new incorrect thinking process to prove to you that there is nothing actually to fear in crowded situations.

What you're actually thinking isn't really that important because often we're not aware of any particular thought as we are reacting to something we can't actually think - stress - because it' something we only feel. If we dig deep enough we can find out what caused the stress but I think it's not always necessary. It can help to give a better understanding of ourselves but it shouldn't be dwelt on because the important thing is learning how to move forward with a new more confident attitude to situations that now frighten us.:hugs:

[freakedout]

Hi Bill,

That is an excellent reply, 'growling dog' I like it, it is a fine example of exactly what happens. I aim to get that 'growling dog' and kick it where the sun don't shine!:D:yesyes::D

Thanks

Freaky

[MikeyT]

Just like to say - both brilliant replies from Freaky and Bill

Question is how to control that bloody dog!!!!
Mike

[Yvonne]

Yes two really good replies. Freaky's right the negative thoughts take the form of "oh my god" or for me "oh no!!!!!!!". But, as Bill says the negative thoughts are so in built when you've been suffering a long time and you would only notice the feelings.

It sounds to me as if you are doing really well actually going to Asda and stuff - keep u p the good work.

I think changing one's automatic negative thoughts is really really hard and how people do it I just don't know. It's the feelings I can't stand. In fact changing the thoughts just doesn't work for me even when I do it.

Bill, how do you deal with the constant feeling that you sometimes get in the gut (you know the one) - it's awful it just sits there and makes you feel orrible.

[Anna C]

Hello,

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for your support and advice.
I'm happy its not just me who doesn't recognize the automatic thoughts, all the time.

Freaky - I know what you mean about thought processes becoming different over time, I think thats what my counsellor mean't when she said she thinks its been that long that I go straight to panic. I also have a lot of negative thoughts through out the day, and I also have the 'oh my god' and 'oh no' don't let me start panicking and I need to get out of here now. I think my counsellor mean't the thoughts I have just before I panic - the thoughts that cause me to panic. I'm finding the whole CBT experience confusing and sometimes frustrating!! Good luck with your therapy, and thanks for your help.

Bill - it makes sense what you say, you have explained really well what it is like, but I did get the feeling that she wanted me to tell her what I think just before I panic. When I told her I'm struggling in work, she asked what my thoughts are when I feel anxious and what is going on around me at the time.
thanks for your help.

Mike - I would also like to know how to control that dog!!

Yvonne - I know what you mean about the constant feelings, my symptoms are really bad at the moment, especially in work. I sometimes get a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, or my stomach feels really heavy and I feel ill, is this what you get too? Thanks for your help and good luck with your recovery.

Anna :hugs:

[minihaha]

just wanted to say to Bill thanks for posting the "growling dog" analogy -perfect way of describing it - cheers xxxxxxxxxx

[Bill]

how do you deal with the constant feeling that you sometimes get in the gut (you know the one) - it's awful it just sits there and makes you feel orrible.

Yvonne:hugs: , the best way is to try not to think about it otherwise the more you focus on it, the worse it'll feel. Also though, to help you not think about it, try to find something of interest to make your mind away from not only the feeling but also the original subconscious thoughts that are creating the feeling in the first place. One other thing to try is to make your body feel as relaxed as possible by allowing it to "flop". Often fear makes us tense our bodies up without us realising it. For instance, we often hold our stomach muscles in when we feel tense which creates pressure or swallow air which also affects the stomach but we don't know we're doing it until we start feeling the effects.

but I did get the feeling that she wanted me to tell her what I think just before I panic. When I told her I'm struggling in work, she asked what my thoughts are when I feel anxious and what is going on around me at the time.

Anna:hugs:, you say you suffer from social anxiety so my guess is that you feel most at ease with your own company because whenever you are with people, you feel self conscious, insecure and uncomfortable. Therefore, whether you're at work, in a shop or a queue etc this anxiety will affect you.

So I think what you're meaning are the actual thoughts that frighten you and make you feel so anxious in these types of situation. I think that perhaps you were very shy and so you've always lacked self confidence interacting with others. The thought you "may" have maybe created by your lack of self confidence which creates doubt and worry.

You must also be like most of us on here, a sensitive person so sensitivity and lack of confidence combined will probably create a thought of fearing "making a fool of yourself" or "doing something that will draw attention to you". You may have a fear of everyone then focusing their attention on you and therefore putting you under the spotlight which then stresses you and causes your panic to surface.

If so, these thoughts and worries would make you feel anxious in crowded situations which will then cause you stress making you feel trapped and wanting to run away to a place of safety "alone".

The more you fear you'll "make a scene" by suffering a panic attack and so draw peoples attention to you, the more you do actually panic. The trick is to not focus on the people around you or on your fears of drawing attention.

When I was in my teens I was terrified of talking to people because I lacked self confidence. Building Confidence is the key that you need to work on by training your mind to feel comfortable around people.

For instance, when we start a new job, we feel anxious because it's all new to us but the more we learn how to do our job, the more confident we become but this only comes with time and experience. You just need to keep working on coming out of your shell so that you feel equal to others and so part of the crowd. It does take time though.

I don't know if this actually is what you're thinking. If not, explain more and I'll try again!:hugs: