View Full Version : Who are we?? and what is life????
Desprate Dan
02-02-10, 07:28
The problem i have is that i am a "THINKER" always thinking its as if my mind never rests and is always looking for answers trying to understand things???
Can anyone relate to this????
I am always looking for happiness and contentment but what is happiness and contentment they are just words, has anyone ever found happiness and contentment and is it achievable?????
I look outside the box and see people rushing around and wrapped up in day to day tasks, shopping, paying bills, dropping the kids off at school, going to work, cooking the tea,.... Is this really contentment or just distraction?????
Does anyone stop and look at the big picture?? Who are we?? what is life??
I know thinking to deep gets me nowere, and really i wish i could be content just slotting into what everyone else percieves as "NORMAL" and get wrapped up in our little day to day chores, but i cant help thinking there is more to this life........ perhaps i am going crazy??? or am i, and are the people who think like me sane and the rest of the society crazy??? who knows???
I understand i will never be able to work it out, so i should just forget it and slot into what everyone regards as "NORMAL" is there such a thing??? and forget my thoughts, but would i be content?? would that make me happy??
We all enter this world alone and we all die alone, so the meaning of life must be we try and survive as long as possible once born, have children to keep the human race going. pass on the knowledge we have learnt then leave this world..
I get so anxious trying to work it all out but feel as if i am drawn towards it and curious but there is no answers??
Who actually decides what is normal and what is not?? who decideds who is insane and who is sane, or do we all just follow the majority like sheep so to fit in with what SOCIETY regard as normal???????????
Dan
Hi Dan,
You sound exactly like me. I'm 23 now and have thought very much the same way as you since i was pretty young. Like i knew life was good in parts but didn't understand the point of everything really. I had what you'd call a "nervous breakdown" at the start of november and even though during that time i knew i would be fine eventually, i still found myself wondering what's the point? etc, the crappy winter weather didn't help much either.
Anyway, i highly recommend these books. I could write alot about this but the books can explain it far more eloquently than i. Essentially it is about coming to the realisation that your life is here in the present moment, not in your memories of the past or your anxieties about the future but right here, right now. edit: I should mention that these books do talk about the meaning of life, our place in the world etc.
Happiness by mathieu ricard (sometimes called "the happiest man alive") (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Happiness-Guide-Developing-Lifes-Important/dp/1843545586/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265108679&sr=8-1)
Wherever you go there you are by jon kabat zinn (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wherever-You-There-are-Mindfulness/dp/0749925485/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265108748&sr=1-1)
Peace is every step by Thich nhat hanh (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peace-Every-Step-Mindfulness-Everyday/dp/0712674063/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265108782&sr=1-1)
Here is a good 20 minute talk by mathieu ricard (http://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_happiness.html)
Honestly, it's the real deal :) i can't imagine myself going a day in my life without meditating, from now until the day i die.
Yes, I have found myself thinking about these kind of things a lot as well. I wonder how people get through their lives without these kind of thoughts. Do they genuinely care about all the stupid pointless little things we all do each day or is it just distraction? I also had a nervous breakdown around November time and I feel like I am constantly searching for answers, but not finding any that convince me.
I found this site the other day: http://www.lifesucks.info/index.htm it probably won't give you the answers you're looking for but it may make you see that you're not alone in thinking this way.
I think that as long as people keep themselves busy, they don't have time to stop. It tends to be only when people get ill, become unemployed or a relationship breaks up (all three have happened to me lately) or otherwise have a reason to stop keeping busy, these kind of thoughts take over. And because we're not happily getting on with life, we are labelled mentally ill. I know that there is much more to mental illness, and I don't doubt that mental illnesses are real, I accept that I suffer from some, but I do wonder about how easily things like "personality disorders" are labelled, because people deviate from society's norm.
The song Be Safe by The Cribs (most of the vocals are actually done by the guy from Sonic Youth) is one I discovered fairly recently and the first part of it seems to describe this kind of feeling as well.
nervy-paul
02-02-10, 14:48
I think that being a thinker, seeing 'outside the box' and not being what is considered 'normal' is one of the things that leave us open to mental illness. We are more sensitive to the big worries of the world. Yes, it would be nice not to see beyond our own little world, their's less to worry about when you don't look at the bigger picture and what is beyond this life, this world, this existence. But the universe, spiritualism, and similar subjects are, I consider, utterly fascinating, and mankind would be poorer if some of us at least, didn't look into and discuss these amazing topics.
A great thread, should make for some interesting reading! :)
I think that we follow the rules of the society that we are born into and all rules are made by that society. We have handed over our right to govern ourselves by giving that right to whatever Government that is voted in, even if we did not vote for that Government ourselves. without rules a society would fall apart and we would have people just doing whatever they decided was good for them and not for the whole of society.
If we look at crime we see that some are placed in prison for breaking the rules and without these rules we would have more crime. We could go round in circles and ask what is a crime.
Is a crime a crime if no ones notices the crime and no one gets hurt by it?
We all need structure in our life and we need things mostly to remain the same. For example....If you were to go in to you're local shop and they started to brush you're hair you would find this abnormal.
For most the rules of our society run smoothly but we can accept that some are not treated fairly but there is no 100% perfect society and all we can do is to do our best.
If we look at happiness we see that this is fleeting but contentment last. To keep it simple contentment is to be content with whatever you have. It is ones desire to want more more more that brings discontentment to ones life. The basic needs of all humans is food and shelter but we have been exposed to so much more here in the west and thus we seek the 42inch tv, the BMW etc.
We can decide a person is insane by their actions. Who decides? we/society decide!!
We know what is normal behaviour and what is not.
Running about naked up the high street shouting you are Elvis is not normal...yes extreme example......Normal behaviour is acting with in what is concidered actceptable by our society.....
Again this area could run in circles
Great thread and its going to be interesting
Having been to university and studied philosophy and logic I can tell you that I came out more confused and with more questions than answers.
All our thinking is based on personal experiences and conditioning - the environment or our external lives. Linked to that is our internal life which springs into being from the external - although we don't always connect the two. We hold on to "our" thoughts when really are they "our" thoughts at all, or is it just our conditioning which is made unique by our varied experiences? Many philosophers have argued that there's no difference between the inner and the outer - the internal and external. It's the same process running on parallel time-lines.
(There's also the argument of genetics - being predisposed to certain behaviours/thoughts, but that too can be explained by the continuation of past conditioning - again the external.)
Then we have society. The "norms" created by society. We then take these norms and cultivate them as our own thoughts. But society has many norms and they're always changing, so we're constantly trying to conform - which means that the pressure is applied by ourselves. After all, society is just an abstraction of you and me.
Happiness and contentment is also shaped by society - the environment. Happiness is now dependent on money, so we have have to go through a certain amount of misery in order to achieve a certain amount of "happiness". No matter how "content" you may feel with say a partner, survival is still strongly tied to the material and it won't be long before you're pushed back into line. If you resist then there are other consequences which will impact your "happiness", because the way we've constructed society today means that you have to follow a process to be happy. If you don't follow that process then by default you'll come upon a certain amount of misery - as people with no money will understand.
I could go on and on but as someone once said to me, at the end of the day it's nighttime....
I have to disagree that money is linked 100% to ones happiness/contentment. One look at those who have real money shows that money does not have all the answers.
The norms of every society are adopted as ones own because we cannot exist within a society and not follow its rules. Those who refuse to follow the rules will find it difficult to exist in the society and at the end of the day we must ask ourselves, what are they fighting or rebelling against? Yes our society is not 100% fair but no system is
I would go as far as to say...rules are good...we need rules
Every child born learns what is good for them and what is not. We set moral guidelines for them to follow
1. Primary socialization...when we are 0-5
2. Secondary socialization..when we enter the school system and start to find out more about our world and have ideas, thoughts and opinions for ourselves.
There is a need to conform, otherwise we will be at war with society and ourselves but conforming does not mean giving up our individuality. Look at the great writers, poets, song writers etc Their freedom to express themselves has enhanced many lives
But if we ask ourselves this question....what are my rights...we have all heard people say "I have the right to do x y z"
We then go deeper and ask "in fact who gives me the right or do I have the right" The answer is we only have the rights that we are allowed to have by Government. So in fact we do not have 100% free rights
It is my belief that we will move more and more towards a police state. I.D. cards will soon be the norm
We have seen how they have taken away ones right to protest and in fact you need to apply to protest but worse still they have dumbed down the news so we no longer have the "zest" to protest. We now sit and think, why bother nothing can be done about it.
I have to disagree that money is linked 100% to ones happiness/contentment. One look at those who have real money shows that money does not have all the answers.
The norms of every society are adopted as ones own because we cannot exist within a society and not follow its rules. Those who refuse to follow the rules will find it difficult to exist in the society and at the end of the day we must ask ourselves, what are they fighting or rebelling against? Yes our society is not 100% fair but no system is
I would go as far as to say...rules are good...we need rules
Every child born learns what is good for them and what is not. We set moral guidelines for them to follow
1. Primary socialization...when we are 0-5
2. Secondary socialization..when we enter the school system and start to find out more about our world and have ideas, thoughts and opinions for ourselves.
There is a need to conform, otherwise we will be at war with society and ourselves but conforming does not mean giving up our individuality. Look at the great writers, poets, song writers etc Their freedom to express themselves has enhanced many lives
But if we ask ourselves this question....what are my rights...we have all heard people say "I have the right to do x y z"
We then go deeper and ask "in fact who gives me the right or do I have the right" The answer is we only have the rights that we are allowed to have by Government. So in fact we do not have 100% free rights
It is my belief that we will move more and more towards a police state. I.D. cards will soon be the norm
We have seen how they have taken away ones right to protest and in fact you need to apply to protest but worse still they have dumbed down the news so we no longer have the "zest" to protest. We now sit and think, why bother nothing can be done about it.
I haven't said that money is linked 100% to happiness. I've said that it is tied to it strongly in the form of survival. Why do we go to work? If you have a family you have a responsibility to provide for them. If you don't then they will suffer and suffering is the opposite of happiness. I'm not talking about being a millionaire - I'm talking about the every day struggle to survive and "live". All that is tied in with our happiness. It can't be denied. And I'm talking about long-term happiness and contentment here - not the happiness you get in the form of pleasure that may not be dependent on money.
The rest of what you say is political. If people hand over authority to corrupt governments then the consequences could be what you predict with the prison/police state etc.
I think life is like a chess game in some ways every move has meaning of some sort its how you play each move that counts.Once you make a move you cant go back or undo just like you cant change the past but the future could have options.
The people who think inside the box are treated well like cattle and are non the wiser however if you think outside the box your cutoff and isolated the question is can you ever get back into the box from the outside ?
looking4answers
02-02-10, 21:46
There are so many opinions here ,strangely enough Im wondering what one has to do with the other. Maybe im the daft one here..What Dan is asking is the same questions most people ask when they are children .We never have those answers.What is normal. I don't really think anyone has ever really defined that would be able to put an exact label on any of our lives..
There seems to be a lot of intelligent people on here. Unfortunately intelligent people tend to get themselves into trouble worrying about things they cannot control nor things they can't ever hope to understand. Here is a partial list of people that have the same issues we do and were considered the most intelligent people in the world.
Leonardo Da Vinci
Albert Einstein
Edgar Allen Poe
Charles Darwin.. a terrible hypochondriac
Howard Hughes
Hans Christian Anderson
Alfred Lord Tennyson
Sigmund Freud
Nicola Tesla
Adolf Hitler
The list goes on.. No Dan you aren't going crazy.Its just that great thinkers cause themselves more anxiety but analyzing things to much .Thus I present most of the people on NMP..Its a good thing to be intelligent but then intelligence is our downfall.
So in not so many words.. we are our own worst enemies.. I posted awhile back
about what life was or my theory of life and was reprimanded. I have many theories
about why we are here and what our purposes is but I won't make the mistake of
posting them in public here again..
My thoughts in a nutshell.. basically is that life is something simple. We complicate it by thinking to much and making more out of that really is.. Im not sure the questions you have posed here will ever be answered or explained because there are far greater people that have lived that posted the same questions on to realize that no one on this planet can truly answer them only give great theories.. Good luck with your questions and please don't think the less of yourself for being a "thinker"
Although it helps to contribute to our anxiety and depression sometimes it contributes to the worlds greatest contributions.. If you don't believe me research famous people that had anxiety or hypochondria .You won't believe the famous people that had the same problems that you and I face everyday but were great.. Also the people that contributed so many things either by being leaders or inventors or writers etc..
Now I only mention Adolf Hitler because he was infamous but you get the whole point here im sure.. Take care ,don't worry be happy .. Michael
Desprate Dan
02-02-10, 22:12
Thanks to you all for your reply's, I am guilty of thinking to much and to deep and i wish at times i didnt think so deep and i need to ACCEPT that i cant have all the answers and i will never find them, so why do i keep searching???
I dont believe that happiness comes from money or material things i believe it comes from deep inside ourselves "ACCEPTANCE" is one thing i believe could bring happiness.. Because i have diffrent thoughts or views to others in society doesnt mean i am wrong, but if i am in the minority I AM WRONG, because society tells me how i should think and what is right to think and what is wrong, but how do they know??
I was reading a book lately "Zen and the art of motocycle maintenance" a very good book may i add...
Something which stuck in my mind... Just imagine someone was born with out any senses, No Sight,Smell,Taste,Touch,Hearing and was kept alive for 15 years by feeding by a tube.... Would that person have any thoughts????????? How could he/she have any thoughts because they have never experienced anything because they have no senses, so our thoughts must come from our senses????
I have travelled to some countries were people are living in tin sheds with nothing but the tattered clothes they are stood in.....Yet these people are some of the happiness people i have ever met..
Thanks again for all your posts, i guess i will always be a troubled soul looking for answers that cannot be found....
"When one person suffers from a delusion its called INSANITY. When many people suffer from delusion its called RELIGION"
Dan
looking4answers
02-02-10, 22:25
You make me smile..Greater people than us have thought a lot deeper than your and my mind is capable of..I wouldn't loose any sleep over things that the greatest minds in the world have pondered and been unable to answer..You never will accomplish those things because the greatest people that ever lived didn't.Happiness is where you find it..Basically the simple things in life has made me the happiest..
After I got older and worked really hard for many years I have money but money doesn't make you happy..It can feel a temporary happy but then it fades quickly.Although it is nice to be able to pay your bills and to eat..
I too have traveled to over 86 countries and the people I have seen everyday "a tin roof is a step up" lol...They were happy.. their smile are genuine and their laughter real..I always thought I grew up poor until I went to my first third world country.. I found I never had been..
Happiness is a state of mind much like many things in this universe.I have studied many ancient cultures and remote island peoples..and they are happy.They don't have running water nor do they have indoor plumbing they work hard and have very little but are very happy and have been living this way for thousands of years yet people study them and ask why they haven't migrated away or changed the way things were done and join the 21st century..Well..their philosophy has been if it works don't fix it and its been done the way they do it for thousands of years and they have survived why change it now? If have to think.."hey they have a great attitude" They work hard live short insignificant lives and they think about the stories their ancestors told them and take them as fact .Why they are here on earth,how the earth began ,what they are suppose to do with their lives ..In other words.. you can find happiness in the most unlikely places... After all sometimes ignorance is bliss..
Desprate Dan
02-02-10, 22:33
Thankyou Micheal, What you say is true, how can i ever find the answers, so why am i fascinated by the wonder of it all?????
Dan
looking4answers
02-02-10, 22:46
But what a great thing to be fascinated by ?The world is a wondrous place full of mystery and magical things that we will never be able to understand but why quit trying? This is the very reason man has survived.If he was never curious or wondered about things we would all still be living in caves..Thank goodness he wanted to know more about clothing his body ,feeding his family, the natural things.Its what keeps us all going and its a GOOD thing so never worry about wonder only worry when you quit..It means your life is slipping away.. So be happy and don't worry but never stop wonder and inquiring.. as long as you dream and ask why you will never wither away ,but when a person stops .. they slowly start dying at least mentally ..Take care..
Generally, when I ask myself "Who are we?, What is life?" my mind tends to drift onto other, even more daunting subjects.
I started thinking about eternity, and that's when the fear really grabs hold of me. Has anyone else experienced this fear?
I'm been in some pretty damn scary situations, but nothing comes close to the sheer terror I experience when thinking about Non-Existence, Eternity etc.
Not sure anyone here has ever thought about it, but if you have then I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about. One minute I'm thinking about death and eternity with curiousity, the next minute I'm paralyzed with fear and on the verge of a panic attack.
Here's a post from another site that explains it better.
I’ve come face to face with not-existing. It’s scary. Really scary. I’ve never experienced anything scarier. I can call it “fear,” but it’s more than that. Worse than that. Regular fear arises when something bad is happening or could happen.
But primal fear is looking into the maw of nothing happening to you, because there will be no you around for anything to happen to. Do you get the difference? I hope so. I don’t know if I can describe it any more clearly.
It isn’t a thought; it isn’t an emotion; it isn’t a perception. It’s as if a curtain covering non-existence opens for a moment, giving me a peek into a nothingness that is absolute.
Because I’m not there. I mean, I’m obviously there at the moment, looking into the depths of not-existing for eternity. Yet what I feel all the way down to the marrow of my being is what it means to live for a time and then to not live for all the rest of time.
That feeling grabs my attention, for sure. I feel like I’m staring at the most real thing in existence. Which is, paradoxically, non-existence. More accurately, my non-existence. I honestly think that constantly feeling/thinking about this would be enough to make anyone go insane.
EDIT: Sorry for straying off topic.
looking4answers
02-02-10, 23:39
Yes yes yes lol..I know exactly what you mean..It is terrifying .. to know there will be nothing else ever forever and forever..yes.But then you have to stop and think.. But before we were here we were in eternity and forever and forever before.. and when did eternity begin and when will it end. It makes no sense whatsoever to be afraid of something that was and always has been and always will be. Did you worry before you were born for over 14 billion years that we haven't been here..Its more than likely you won't worry after either.We go back to what we were "stardust" Its what everything is made of gasses and chemicals.. Stardust.
Actually now that my mind has accepted nothingness although I still have trouble with it.. I think of how proud that I am that we are all made of the same fabric as the universe and find humility in the fact of how significant we really are since we are made of the samething that the universe is and fabricated in much the same way accept on a much smaller scale..
Stuart. I too found that wondering and posing the questions that Dan has brought me to the same fright as you . A terror so scary that you almost pass out when you come to the rationalization that this is what is going to happen and well what can you do about it..
Then I began to think how nice it would be to live forever and then thought no.. what if you were to live forever and your body could support your life and although you have the rare chance to do something others could not as the centuries pass and you watch everyone you ever cared for and everything you ever saw invented go to dust.. and the world around you becomes unrecognizable.. don't you think it would be lonely..
Think about the gazillions of others famous and unknown that have come and gone before you ..You don't think they worried about the same things .. ? What about the first emperor of China..He conquered the known world and had everthing that he could possibly ever have and didn't want to leave it. He had an army of exact replicas so that in his afterlife he would have people to atten to him. He had a tomb built that had treasures beyond belief and made a map of the world with so much mercury substituted for the oceans that it would be very dangerous to even open his tomb as it would probably kill you .
When they closed the entrance to the tomb when he died his wives and servants were shut in with him., His horses and everything living that he had was put there with him for eternity but it didn't help him live any longer and all the suffering and worrying about dying caused him to kill himself drinking mercury and arsenic to extend his life.. So its all in vain we worry about these things..
And as your comment about insanity it did make the emperor go insane especially drinking mercury and arsenic to sustain his life..I watched shows about him and read about him and actually felt sorry for him although there was nothing to be sorry for him about . He was one of the most famous rulers and conquerors that ever lived.
He ruled the known world for many years, had many wives and children and almost everything you could ever want in life if not everything you could ever hope for except the one he lusted for the most .Immortality ..He died totally insane and in such a horrible way slowly poisoned and acting bizarre the rest of his pitiful life..
I know its bleak and sad and mind and bone chilling thought but then when I think I didn't feel that way before I was born for the billions of years I wasn't here will I really mind it that much? Hope this helps.. Michael
Yes yes yes lol..I know exactly what you mean..It is terrifying .. to know there will be nothing else ever forever and forever..yes.But then you have to stop and think.. But before we were here we were in eternity and forever and forever before.. and when did eternity begin and when will it end. It makes no sense whatsoever to be afraid of something that was and always has been and always will be. Did you worry before you were born for over 14 billion years that we haven't been here..Its more than likely you won't worry after either.We go back to what we were "stardust" Its what everything is made of gasses and chemicals.. Stardust.
Actually now that my mind has accepted nothingness although I still have trouble with it.. I think of how proud that I am that we are all made of the same fabric as the universe and find humility in the fact of how significant we really are since we are made of the samething that the universe is and fabricated in much the same way accept on a much smaller scale..
Stuart. I too found that wondering and posing the questions that Dan has brought me to the same fright as you . A terror so scary that you almost pass out when you come to the rationalization that this is what is going to happen and well what can you do about it..
Then I began to think how nice it would be to live forever and then thought no.. what if you were to live forever and your body could support your life and although you have the rare chance to do something others could not as the centuries pass and you watch everyone you ever cared for and everything you ever saw invented go to dust.. and the world around you becomes unrecognizable.. don't you think it would be lonely..
I know its bleak and sad and mind and bone chilling thought but then when I think I didn't feel that way before I was born for the billions of years I wasn't here will I really mind it that much? Hope this helps.. Michael
Fantastic post there.:)
In regards to the first paragraph, your way of coming to terms with it is very similar to mine tbh. I don't necessarily think that we live after we die in any conscious form, but I do pull some comfort from that fact that we are all parts of the universe in a sense. It's one of those things though, I mean, I know fine well I won't be bothered about the non-existence when I'm, well, non-existent, but while I'm alive it's just something that weighs on my mind. I'm not sure if the fear is actually the non-existence itself, or if it just stems from the fact that non-existence incomprehensible to me. Either way, it's a terrifying thought.
In all honesty, the thought of living on forever in a conscious form is as daunting as being non-existent. I suppose that the latter is actually a better way to go all things being considered.
Tbh, I've kind of come to terms with my fear anyway. I'm powerless, so all I can really do is not think about. Sounds pessimistic but I've got alot of time to go(hopefully) before I get to the stage where death should be on my mind.
I'd recommend this book to anyone that has an interest in philosophy, or anyone that just questions existence in general.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holographic-Universe-Michael-Talbot/dp/0586091718/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265156016&sr=8-1-spell
"The Holographic Universe" theory does seem quite a scary premise on the face of things. But I actually found it quite a comforting, albeit challenging read. Admittedly, alot of it should be taken with a pinch of salt, but the general theory is a solid and respected one.
looking4answers
03-02-10, 01:11
Well Stu.
I was just reading what I had wrote and you would think of someone that wrote something like that would lack the fear of non-existence ..Not so..Im alive and don't want to go anywhere other than here but then again my reality tells me otherwise that I will one day..
I too ponder the fact of life after death. You have to wonder about every culture in the world having religions and cults based on this.The thoughts of reincarnation and other things..I just don't know .I hope no one gets offended here because I am surely not trying to ,im just expressing thoughts and feelings I have had on the subject.
I posted in a post a few days ago that our lives here are basically an accident that got out of control..Well maybe that is true and hopefully it isn't.. But I feel it to be true of every religion and everything ever written about in ancient text and manuscripts..
I also concluded that our lives were no more significant than a blade of grass or rain storm or a leaf on a tree..basically here and gone and forgotten..I also hope that isn't true but then again its the only logical thing. Dealing without logic and thinking along the lines of a higher being, whether a God deity or just some form or intelligence that keeps us in balance I have to say probably not.. But then again there have been things in my life that makes me wonder about this..
Things that have happened to me but its hard to say they were chance..thus making the argument of a higher being or something of intelligence watching over me or maybe our ancestors in other dimensions manipulating our situations but then again my mind says probably not..
I have been involved in the studies of religions ,cults ,ancient religions studied the ancient cultures beliefs and come to the conclusion although there are many many things that point to something in control when it comes right down to it ,life seems unpredictable..
There are so many things that make me feel we are not alone.. when I say that I don't mean little green men..I mean something that is shaping our world but like Dan our minds are not enough to entertain the possibilities.
I have been a thinker since I was a small child thus the quest for knowledge making me unquenchable in wanting to know about things that maybe I shouldn't be looking for thus causing me more anxiety of finding them or not finding them. There have been times when I feel that maybe as energy we find our way to a place perhaps in another dimension and somehow survive since energy never dies .Then I ponder whether maybe we are recycled into another life time of life time of lifetime after lifetime..Thus sometimes the feeling of knowing someone you have known before and feeling that you have always known them..
You have to admit if there is reincarnation that there are many souls that should in fact know you from many lifetimes.. Its all a mystery to me and I try not to dwell anymore on it since I struggle with anxiety but then again its so much a part of who I am its hard to ignore..
I have read many books by people like Carl Sagan and others that make it simple and to the point that we are nothing more than part of the universe and shall return to that part of the universe although others have created religion to give them comfort to something their minds can't comprehend..
When I speak of such things with people such as yourself and others that feel differently about the subject im not trying to be blasphemous and say that others are wrong to assume that we live after this life or we don't go to heaven or hell but I am just discussing the possibilities of things that are or could be or might not even be but unfortunately none of us will know until that day comes.
I only say what I have concluded and never to be written in stone because I have no other proof than anyone else and can either make assumptions or make make what I feel known.. But then again I find nothing written stone about what I speak of either.Im using logic to dictate that if we knew nothing before we were born then why would we find fear into thinking we will after we are gone.. It makes sense but sometimes sense makes no sense..
Out of the billions that occupy this world far better minds than mine and much much more intelligent and better thinkers. They find peace in the fact there is an afterlife.. Look at the billions and billions of people that lived before us ,rulers ,scientist and others that felt there was an afterlife.Who am I to argue with that? I hope for their sakes they were correct and are correct.. I mean im a meaningless insignificant person compared to these people that believed such things and even prepared for it. but funny thing is all the things they prepared are still here on earth with us including their remains so ,doesn't really make any sense to me but then again im not them. am I ?
Stu I don't know bottom line is here .. its all up to the individual to believe or not to believe whatever gives them comfort but then im sort of a realist..I can't help but think that we are basic and this planet is basic and its just a part of creation . We used to think that earth was special because of human life but now we find that there are many other earths in the universe and why if we are supported by oxygen and hydrogen how come other species lives couldn't be supported by other elements that are native to their planets.. ? I find it all an open question and also find it interesting but find creation basic but then again it is hard to believe its random but the little bit we do know makes us unable to comprehend just what it all means..Is there a purpose for all of it or is it just an accident and there are billions of other accidents all over the universe and then just how big is our universe and where did it come from and if there was nothing before the universe then where did the bang come from and where did the place the bang happened .? I mean.. what does it all mean.. a bang in nothingness and then there was nothing for a bang to happen in .Im confused now lol so pondering life's great mysteries is fun but where does it get you other than what is life and whats going to happen after..so well .. Its too broad of a subject to continue here without writing a book.. But this has been really interesting and fun.. Michael
For me there is an after life and this life we are living is not all there is.
looking4answers
03-02-10, 03:13
Judes please don't think that I am saying there isn't .I don't have any information that anyone else doesn't Im happy you feel that way..and not all sure that this life is all there is .My thoughts I wrote are not conclusive just thoughts.I hope for everyone's sake there is. My mother was a devout Christian and lived and believed till the very end but used to sing row row row your boat to me all the time.. and repeated the verse that said.. "life is what a dream" over and over.. So.. makes me wonder what she was trying to say there.. Im glad you believe..I have yet to make up my mind.. Michael
Desprate Dan
03-02-10, 06:57
Wow, this is fascinating, thanks Micheal for your thoughts....
"Life is but a dream"
I have also thought this, in my dreams whilst a sleep i believe that everything happening is real, I have also thought are we really here??? STRANGE, is it a dream is it someone elses or form of imagination, maybe what we believe is not true, maybe what we see as a life time is only a mineute blip... After all what is time it was created and we believed it...
For years people believed the world was flat, WHY because hey thats what they were told and so believed it..
I am far from intelligent, but i am a thinker, I am not affraid of death and what if anything is beyond death, But i am affraid of dieing, i guess i am a coward as well as a thinker i am afraid of the pain and suffering but not death itself...
I guess we have moved slightly away from what i was trying to reach in my first post... I suffer with anxiety and i am a stressful person, i cant just accept things i need to find reasons, which is frustrating as sometimes there is no reason.. What frightens me most is LIFE not DEATH, The life that i am suppose to lead which society tells me is right.. I am not talking about crime or anything that is against the law, just fitting into the simple life of running around in a little bubble with the biggest thought that passes through your mind that day is what shall we have for tea tonight....This is not me!
I seem to be stuck, as if i have come to a cross road and cant decide which road to take?? i know if i go down the simple life road i wont find happiness or contentment... If i take the other road i dont know were it will take me but just looking down that road frightens me and makes me anxious, maybe this is the road to "INSANITY" so i stay stuck at the cross roads not taking any road at all....
DAN
Pancho Villa
03-02-10, 08:20
Could the vastness of life be contained in an explanation? in a thought? in an idea or philosophy?.LIFE ever changing, ever new, by the time you explain something IT's not anymore, IT's changed already IT's gone. IT seems an eternal Mystery.From moment to moment.
After all, we can only fall in Love with a Mystery, never with an explanation.
Falling in Love with the Mystery of Life.
Just my 2 cents.
Desprate Dan
03-02-10, 09:53
After all, we can only fall in Love with a Mystery, never with an explanation.
Falling in Love with the Mystery of Life.
Just my 2 cents.
WHY? Why cant we fall in love with an explanation??? i know a Mystery is more "Romantic" But why can we not fall in love with an explanation????
Sorry
Dan
Pancho Villa
03-02-10, 13:38
Thank you Dan:
Of course you can fall in love with an explanation if so you wish, and there are many explanations to choose from, if you are in the market for them, including the Scientific and the ones that come from the so called Sacred Books.
But it will be like falling in love with the dead, for the simple fact that they are not alive, ever changing, always new, unpredictable and fresh from moment to moment as life is, which can not be contained in any books any explanations. I believe that Creation is at work at every moment. Every moment is new in every sense of the word.
This are only my personal observations. I may have gone already insane, so don't take much notice.
Thank you for reading.
I think you're all getting away from everyday living and making this all into an abstraction of what life is. Whether you live in your own isolated bubble (as many of us do with anxiety and depression) or not: everyday living is a constant struggle: emotionally, psychologically and physically. On top of all this if you look at the world we're living in there is a hell of a lot of misery. Our whole lives are based on pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain. You talk of people living in tin shacks and being "happy", but how do you know that? How do you measure that? If you asked them to swap places with you and own a house, car etc and live in a Western country they'd probably jump at the chance because just like you think they're happier than you they probably think you're happier than them! They have their own misery that poverty brings.
And I don't want to get into religious or spiritual matters because these things may or may not exist and I do have my own thoughts on them but I just think it'll lead us into a blind alley and get us nowhere.
Is your everyday life not paying bills, working or not working, arguments, conflict, anxiety, sex and the pursuit of other pleasures, mixed with some feelings of "contentment" or some form of "happiness" ...? I think that to understand life and what it is we have to see the facts around us - our everyday living. Whether it's pleasant or not doesn't change anything...
If you want to understand life and perhaps question and change it we have to focus on our everyday life - not escape into some abstraction of what it should or could be. We don't even seem to understand life and we want to understand death and the "afterlife"! I don't see how you could possibly understand one without knowing the other - intimately.
I think if one has no understanding of where they are going after death then they live a life of emotional limits. Until one can be at peace with death, how can they be at peace with life. Sure most put the thought of death out of their mind until they are older but always in the back of their mind they are asking the same question as everyone else "what is after death"!!!!
This thread is not an abstraction in its construction but allows people to express opinions and ideas which may be of value to others as well as theirself.
We all deal with day to day life and pay bills etc We cannot escape from that but the focus for many is more than just the here and now
looking4answers
03-02-10, 22:56
Hi Dan Again.. lol
I saw something written one time about there Courage and being brave.It goes something like this. There are no real Brave people ,only those that know what is ahead and has the courage to face it. I wrote you a book in a PM .I hope it helps a little.
To Pancho.."interesting name by the way" saw a movie that Pancho Villa played himself lol.. what a riot.. anyway .. You sound like a very deep person.. Enjoyed your remarks..
To Melancolia, Hmmm yes I suppose we strayed off the course of the original thread although I see no abstract meaning to anything but if that is the way you see it .. I suppose good call. But in the famous words of John Travolta lol in Broken Arrow.. Ain't it cool.. What a rush? :-)
To Judewan.. Well said..
Finally to Dan, thanks for starting this thread,,..its been fantastic and the people that have commented its nice to know how they think,.Thank you .Dan. ,,,Michael
I think if one has no understanding of where they are going after death then they live a life of emotional limits.
Really? And how do you know what lies beyond death? You see, you want to bring it back to the metaphysical all the time.
Perhaps you should post your religious views here and be over and done with it as you don't want to accept life as it is now.
Happy preaching...
looking4answers
03-02-10, 23:57
Hey hey hey Mel,
Don't you think you are being just a little to hard on Judes? Everybody has a right to post whatever they want here as long as it doesn't hurt someones feelings. Everyone has an opinion and Im glad they do because it would be a sad world where people could dictate their thoughts and feelings on a subject and no one could question it..
Come on.I think you should retract what you said. Besides she never said anything religious.. Even some scientist that are agnostic or atheist believe in some afterlife and has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or at least the kind of religion most people do.. Michael
Melan
I am not preaching a religious view point. I am saying if a person comes to terms with where they are going (be that nowhere, reincarnation, heaven etc) Then death holds no fear.
Death is the final step for all of us and many have a real emotional fear of death and it stops them living life to the full.
Those who follow budda believe they will be reincarnated
Christian believe in a heaven
Others believe they just no longer exist
So what I am saying is, if we come to terms with death and where we are going(even though we may not know for sure) our emotional attachment to the fear of death has no fear anymore.
Enjoy you're views mel, Michal and dan
looking4answers
04-02-10, 02:15
Judes,
hmmm what view..no conclusion on anybody is correct.. just a lot of thoughts theories doubts and discussion. I do enjoy my views and thoughts and the things that I discuss here are things that cross my mind but doesn't mean its correct so it can hardly be called a view.. Huh.. enjoy my view.. ok.. I will thank you very much. Michael
Desprate Dan
04-02-10, 06:46
Thanks for all your thoughts its been intresting reading for me and many others i suppose, i know people have conflicting views on the meaning of life and what happens after life... But we must respect each other and each others views, as like it has been said time and time again in this thread "NO one person has the answers"
I found the thread fascinating, I struggle more with life than the fear of death (when i am gone i am gone) its the going that i find difficult, i just pray its not slow and painful... In life i find things difficult and get hurt easily, by words, actions, and what i read and see in the papers or on TV, but i believe in death there will be no more struggle or no more hurt, thats just my opinion though, not that i want to find out anytime soon may i add, first i need to live my life and find the path i need to follow, but at the moment i am stuck, but hopefully not forever i am just looking for that piece of the jigsaw.
Dan
Pancho Villa
04-02-10, 12:12
Reaching a conclusion, finding the right "way" and then acting accordingly seems to be the answer for most of us. But is it?.
Reaching a conclusion or the path to follow may be comforting, may bring a sense of security of having found "the right way, the correct way" for us, and then just follow it, no need to worry anymore. Then let Life just go past, drunk and embraced to our own thoughts and conclusions, wether they are our own or borrowed from another.
Perhaps we may be lucky, some of us who are still lost, however painful and lonely it may be, who have not "found" despite our efforts, but are not slaves to any Doctrines or conclusions, but free, free to see everything and not in any particular direction. We may be lucky that we would not go to sleep, but because of our being lost we'll still be alert, sensitive,awake, and open to the whole spectrum of this ever changing drama that we call Life.
Thank you Pancho: you put that well. We've got to be free to investigate these things in the beginning - not start off with a mind-set that thinks it "believes" and has come to a conclusion already. For what you believe in may not be reality and you just follow it without having the ability to dispassionately look at the now - the facts of living, our everyday lives. In fact I think we desperately want to believe in something to escape our mundane lives, so we escape into the mysteries of death and the after-life perhaps. All I'm saying is that by doing that we also escape from living - and living can be a beautiful thing - it's just that for many of us it's become something ugly and painful.
This escape is what I meant by turning life into an abstraction. And by religion I meant a fixed mind-set, a mind that has come to conclusions. Life is a living thing, constantly changing. Coming to a conclusion binds you to a bias that hinders investigating, searching and flowing with life.
But unfortunately we all want answers, conclusions and a path. Many Buddhists have mentioned that there is no path to truth because it's not a fixed point - life is a constantly moving, living thing, not one that is dead. What is dead however is the past and we seem to spend a hell of a lot of time living there.
I do respect other people's "beliefs" but as someone said these questions that you have asked here are the sorts of things a child would ask. But the difference is that a child usually has a much more innocent mind and starts off with a lot more freedom of thought than we have.
Thanks guys - it's been interesting...
NotResponding
04-02-10, 14:00
Normal is just, what most of the people seem to do is considered normal, the things that most people DONT do are therfor not normal, imo. What is most common, is normal. Their is no real deffinition of normal, for what's normal in one society in an ancient past could seem totally mad and wrong for another bunch o people.
You are a thinker, like you said, and everybody has these questions from time to time, these are age old questions, even the scientists that are at the top of their game search for these answers, they are seem elusive, and the more questions that are answered just opens up more questions.
We are here because we just are, we try to think of a reason why we are here, but we just are. Why do humans have far advanced intelligence compared to animals? That's what I've always wondered, we've walked a path all on our own in evolution, we've become the dominant predator via our brains, which isn't usually the reason a predator is so, it's usually that it is faster, stronger, physically better.
Happiness is acheivable, only perhaps harder to acheive when you've got problems in the way....
Society does alot of crazy thing imo, and not all but most, seem deluded, mislead, walking down a colour-filled sparklie garden path, not seeing the abyss either side of the path.
I agree with what you wrote, although you wanted more;
"We all enter this world alone and we all die alone, so the meaning of life must be we try and survive as long as possible once born, have children to keep the human race going. pass on the knowledge we have learnt then leave this world.."
Reproduction, the reason we're here. It might seem like a let down, but it's life, the bit inbetween, that's the more rewarding answer. You should read some scientific theories if your a thinker, listen, think, and make your way to youtube videos of string theory! Get your mind blown, and then be at a loss to why we're here...goes round n round this! :)
Let me know when you've worked it all out :D awesome thread btw! perhaps we can come to our own conclusions!
The idea that one has a view of the after life does in no way stop them from living a life full of wonderment. I know so many will go through life always searching for an answer to this question. Can we say those who pin their colours to the mast and accept a faith or way of life that they wish to follow are not living life to the full? Coming to a conclusion is not an escape from day 2 day living but it is accepting. They have found something that works for them and they keep their eyes fixed on it.
Desprate Dan
05-02-10, 08:17
I do respect other people's "beliefs" but as someone said these questions that you have asked here are the sorts of things a child would ask. But the difference is that a child usually has a much more innocent mind and starts off with a lot more freedom of thought than we have.
Thanks guys - it's been interesting...
Melancholia77
What do you mean??
I agree a child may ask these sort of questions, Who are we?? What is life?? will i find happiness?? will i be content??
I am sorry if i have been childish in asking these questions but i was innocently looking for your thoughts and views, i have freedom of thought i have no fixed ideas, i was in no way trying to push my ideas or take others idea's..
Thanks for all your posts it has helped me understand things alot more (I think) I know we will never find the answers to some things and could spend a life time trying and still be no wiser for it.. So i will just try as best to enjoy this wonderful life we have been given, forget trying to work what its all about, instead i shall enjoy the here and now for that is what really matters..
Take care
DAN
OOO a deep philosophical thread........and nothing unique emerges ( I say that respectfully) Why? Because everything pondered here is nothing new and yet in terms of happiness, are you not happy with the pondering? Does it excite and enthral you. Engage your intelligence, confuse and baffle you. In your pursuit of answers do you remember how you feel on the journey? The book you may have read that made you think wow i never thought about it like that before. Or the person you just spoke to who had a heap of enlightenment to offer. Or where you lying in the bath thinking about it all and arriving at some of your own conclusions and having your own eureka moment :D
And what of the society that we live in? Can you step outside the way it has shaped your thinking. attitudes, values, morals and view it from a different perspective. Can you really? Can you look at life without judgement your life, your emotional life and tell what happiness really is? Perhaps we are looking at millions of people in a capitalist society who have lost all of their life appreciation skills.
I personally do not believe that anyone is unique. My fears, worries, cares, values , love's and losses have all been experienced before, are being experienced now and will be again by many others. If I ponder on the stars, the universe and the meaning of life, I am only doing what people have been doing for thousands of years. But not any less exciting because its MY experience.
And what of happiness? An emotional experience that you may be lucky enough to possess the skills to recognise when it exists in your life. I read in a book recently... husband and wife celebrating their 45th wedding anniversary. The wife raises her glass and toasts to 30 years of a happy marriage. Of course someone questions why the two do not correspond. The wife in her great wisdom replies...40 mins of happiness here, an hour there a couple of days on a roll..all adds up to 30 years..... doesn't that make you think?
Remember when you think of the bigger picture of life and how it relates to you, give equal thought to how you relate to life. It's just as important. That said and an aside.. How boring would it be if the answers were all revealed in one go knowing the human condition how many of us wouldn't believe it anyway :D
Pooh :D
Ps Also wanted to add that at times throughout the thread there has appeared to have been an undercurrent of unease, frustration about being a 'deep thinker'. WHY? It's not all pessimism! Why shouldn't you think about these things, it's fantastic, it's scary, it's eye opening and wonderous. How fabulous to have different perspectives and beliefs and respect for said. The secret is not to let it chew you up and spit you out. That's me off...going to ask Brian about the meaning of life LOL
Desprate Dan
05-02-10, 10:36
Cheers Pooh,
Isnt it amazing (life that is) Yes Please ask Brian and come back and tell me what he said???? LOL,
I had a laugh at one post about sane and insane who decides who is insane??? do we decide?? If you run down the high street naked shouting you are Elvis then you are insane, well friday and saturday nights out on the town i have seen some insane people...LOL
I agree pooh why shouldnt you think, there is nothing wrong with thinking and its only natural to wonder and it fascinates me to see how others think and react to what others might think, they might think the next person is insane for his views and thoughts but who decides who's thoughts are right if no one has an answer than surely one cannot be labled insane for his/her thoughts, just because it doesnt fit into what the majority thinks.....mmmmmmm
Enough thinking for one day, off to work now for a well earned rest...
Take care
Dan
"And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only."
'It's Alright Ma, ( I'm only bleedin')' Bob Dylan
Well worth looking up the rest of the very apt and poetic lyrics. It's a perspective....
http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/its-alright-ma-im-only-bleeding
Pooh :D
Oh Dan! I asked my dad (Brian) :D
Dad I said What's the meaning of life?
Mmm he replied and finished his coffee and stubbed out his cigarette
How do you like them apples? came the cryptic reply....LOL
Pooh :D
The meaning of life is an uncut diamond that has yet to show all of its beauty
NotResponding
05-02-10, 16:31
The meaning of life is an uncut diamond that has yet to show all of its beauty
Nice!
looking4answers
05-02-10, 20:24
"Life is but a dream"
Oh so now we've descended into quotes ... (That was a joke by the way...)
Dan, the child metaphor was in relation to the nature of the question: not many of us ask these questions because we're so distracted half the time and the other half of the time we haven't got the energy. When we do ask we invariably start off with some sort of view or an agenda - whether it be redemption, resurrection, reincarnation or just to escape from a meaningless life full of pain and pleasure. There's nothing wrong with these question and as others have said here, they've been asked millions of times in the past.
I agree with Pooh that suffering is universal. It's been repeated so many times in the past and will be repeated so many times in the future that to call it "mine" has very little meaning. But I don't think many people will accept this. They'll just say "that's an interesting idea!" and just get on with slagging off their neighbour or hoping they get promotion next month...
A child can see the insanity we call life and ask such questions but unfortunately by the time he's grown up enough to do something about it he too has been conditioned to this way of life and has lost the innocence of mind to start off without holding some view that he calls his "own", but has in fact been recycled many, many times before him.
There are never any answers because we never start off from the same point. Therefore even if we see the same thing we can never agree on what it is. You say an elephant and I say a banana. But the fact of what it is remains the same no matter what we call it. This has been my whole point throughout this thread...
Desprate Dan
05-02-10, 22:05
Thanks Melancholia77,
Its been fascinating reading, yes a child is innocent and maybe thinks adults are insane, but as that child grows he to is moulded into the shape what society think is normal until he becomes like the people he presumed were insane...
Cheers to everyone its been a good thread with lots of great view i have really enjoyed reading them.
Dan
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