Can faulty breathing cause panic attacks?

[StoneMonkey]

Hi all,
I am a long term sufferer looking for some experience/knowledge.
If you are breathing wrong can it change your body chemistry making you feel weird and leading to panic attacks. I'm clutching at straws but perhaps a changed state with altered levels of carbon dioxide etc.
My first panic attack was shortly after having a collapsed lung.
It was a very late diagnosis so for around three weeks i was working and playing sports with one lung deflated.
I knew i was ill and felt odd but the G.P. had said it as a pulled muscle:huh:
Is it possible that during this time i adapted to breath in a different way that set me up to be susceptible to P.A.s.
It was not a frightening experience as i was almost out the end of it before I was aware.
I would love to know anyone's thoughts. how do you know if you are breathing correctly?
Look at me still looking for a physical cause. still worth a shot.

Thanks all.
Simon:doh:

[racdun]

Hi Simon
Hyperventilation is a well know cause of panic attacks. A lot of people overbreath and are not even aware of doing so, also a lot breath through the mouth which again in turn leads to overbreathing. I have the books on it just would have to look up the explanation of it. My young lad has a touch of asthma and I did a course with him based on the Butekyo breathing method. If you look up Patrick McKeown the guy that ran the course you will get more info on breathing.
Rachael

[StoneMonkey]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge Rachael.
I do tend to breathe through the mouth and my breathing can feel a bit jerky at times.
I dont think I hyperventilate (Is that when people grab a paper bag), but unconsciously over breathing is a possibility.

I will look to your suggestions and read up more.
Thanks Simon.

[Typer]

I am sure it does have a lot to do with it. Although I am not hyperventilating in a way anyone would notice at least, I do catch myself shallow breathing and even holding my breath. I have heard yoga can help with this

[StoneMonkey]

Thanks Typer,
Yes im thinking more of a subtle long term thing than something obvious.
I have ordered some books from Amazon (other online book sellers are available).
Blimey they were reasonable.

Close your mouth (Butekyo Breathing) recommended above by Rachael.
Hyperventilation Syndrome had top reviews.
A guide to developing lifes most important skills (Ricard recommended by Veronica H).

All three came to just over £15.
I am looking forward to them arriving.
Thanks for the yoga suggestion.

Simon.

[jothenurse]

Do you ever feel short of breath at times? I don't mean with the tightness of the chest, but sometimes when I bend over and I'm exerting myself, like grabbing laundry out of the dryer, or doing something with my dog, I feel short of breath. I have had many ekg's, chest x-ray, even a breathing test, and they were all ok. Just wonder if I focus in on this and if this could be my anxiety and if anyone else experiences it.

[StoneMonkey]

Hi Jo.
I am never short of breath or gasping.
I do a fair bit of running and I had 4 hours of table tennis with the nephew the other day without any problems.

I am more wondering if I have learnt to over breath when I dont need it.
This may also all be from my anxiety. Its a chicken and egg thing.
Does the anxiety cause the breathing or breathing cause anxiety.

Is what you are explaining more due to the rib cage being compressed when you are leaning down or the light headedness when you come back upright.
Thats another thing that became new to me after panic attacks.

Simon.

[anthrokid]

Heya Siram,

Like the others have mentioned, faulty breathing (hyperventilation) can definitely have an impact on anxiety and panic attacks. A lot of anxiety sufferers hyperventilate often, and get to the point where they do not realise they are hyperventilating. I got to the point where I was constantly hyperventilating, it had become my normal breathing. I was breathing about 10 times faster than you are supposed to! I only noticed when my psychiatrist asked me to breathe in for 4 seconds and breathe out for 4 and I could only do it for barely 2 seconds!
I've been told that hyperventilating can induce feelings like numbness and tingling, headaches, fast heartbeat, chest tightness and fatigue, all of which can bring on a panic attack!

[StoneMonkey]

Thanks Amiee,

Great explanation and yep guess what I just checked and was barely over 2 second count.
Now it has my attention it seems to be longer and i feel more centered.
I had wrongly presumed that hyperventilating was some dramatic thing that you would be very aware of.
I am going to try to four count until my books arrive.

Thanks Simon.

P.S. Like your blog "Loud & Proud".
I would love to live in a big commune where problems are compulsory!
Oh dear I think the Health Service closed all of those.

[chili2424]

I went to doctors and they said my lungs are perfectly healthy but my biggest problem is breathing. Its such an annoyance it definately caused about 80% of my panic attacks.

[anthrokid]

You're welcome! I've been working on my breathing for a few months now. Mine's been a difficult pattern to change because I've been a fast breather for as long as I can remember, it just became normal to me and that's probably why I feel so icky all the time!

I've been doing yoga and mediation which are seriously really helpful. I recommend either, especially yoga because it teaches you to control your breathing whilst focusing on something else.

One breathing exercise that I learned at yoga that's really helped me to breathe slower and deeper is breathing through your nose, but only through one side at a time. So what you do is...
1. Push one side of your nose so you can only breathe in through the other side, breathe in slowly
2. Push in on the other side of your nose so you can only breathe out of the side that you had covered before.
3. Then breathe in through the side you just breathed out and breathe out through the other side.
I hope that makes sense because it's so helpful! It sounds silly, I thought it sounded ridiculous, but amazingly, it works! If my explanation was a bit difficult to understand the technique is called anuloma viloma :) this webpage has images - http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/pranayama/basic/viloma.asp

I hope your books are really helpful! Best of luck with your breathing! :) :)

[StoneMonkey]

Hey Chili2424,

Its reasuring that your lungs are healthy I dont know if thats from listening to them or x-rays or if they are strong (the thing that you blow to get a reading).
It seems to be our use or control of them that has got out of line.
Did you try Amiee's four count. I am definitely breathing too quick. Its funny because every time I have thought to check as soon as my attention is on it there is an improvement.

Simon.

[StoneMonkey]

Hey Amiee,
That is clever. I just tried your nose breathing "exercise of the day".
(Brilliantly explained I might add). Instantly calming.

If you are nose breathing thats a good start. (My first book to read is called "Close your mouth".) but through one nostril I am guessing the same amount of oxygen is taken in but over double the time period = slower breathing.

I am glad you have found ways to make positive progress and am greatful for you sharing. Infact the way you are going Guru Amiee may be more suitable.
Simon

[anthrokid]

Heya Simon!

Glad I've been somewhat helpful for you :) :)

How good is the nose breathing. It just slows and calms everything down. It's taking in the same amount of breathe but just much slower. After doing it for a few minutes I try to breathe in slowly with both nostrils but bring in the same amount of air, not more. It's really hard, but good at the same time :)

That sounds like an excellent book. I think I might actually invest in some. I love reading, and I may as well be reading about something helpful to me!

Thank you! You're already making positive progress to just by recognising that you breathe too quickly :) That's one of the biggest steps to take! Haha, Guru Amiee, I like the sound of that!

Good good super luck with it all! Remember, don't be a stranger. Feel free to message anytime if you're needing some support or you have any questions related to anxiety!

[racdun]

Hi Simon
Glad to hear that you ordered Patrick Mckeowns book. I know I got it but it wasn't till I did the course that I fully understood what it was explaining in the exercises. Check and see if he has any workshops coming up in your area, I know he does courses out of Ireland as well, definately worth attending one. Another simple way to slow down breathing is short breath in, short breath out and then hold to the count of five, breath normal for 10 secs and repeat. Exercises should be practiced every day so the brain can eventually pick up the new breathing pattern as normal.
Rachael

[StoneMonkey]

Hey Rachael,
Thank you, Yes the book turned up with 2 others last night.
It was only about £5. What a bargain.
Thanks for suggesting the course. Thats a bit of a deal breaker for me. I am quite limited in what i am able to do. Bit of a recluse like with groups of people.
I was out in the car today and got caught in a bit of traffic. My usual response would of been to tense up and think how am I going to get out of here but instead I thought about my breathing and went all calm.
You are right I need to do daily exercises and get used to being aware of how I am breathing. I am going to get into the book at the weekend.
It feels good to be doing something positive.
Thank you for the exercise and your support.
Simon

[StoneMonkey]

I thought i would update what happened by following the Close Your Mouth book. It makes some pretty strong claims but i have been doing the 25 min a day exercises, most days for 6 months. The basic premise is on retraining to nose breathing, minimizing yawning & swallowing of air. If overbreathing (often caused by mouth breathing) the carbon dioxide levels in the body can get messed up & can cause all sorts of spaced out symptoms & panic attacks. What the exercises in this book set out to do is to improve the balance & gradually get used to less oxygen. (what rebreathing from a paper bag does temporarily).

Two measurements are taken so progress can be recorded which is the thing that kept me doing it.
Pulse (before & after).
Control pause (Time breath can be comfortably held after an outbreath taken 4 times during the exercises).

The first time i did it resting pulse before was 94 bpm.
After the 25min breathing exercises it was 78 bpm.
I suppose similar could be achieved by relaxation or meditation but over the months my resting pulse has consistently dropped.
Last nights before pulse was 72bpm
Pulse after was 66bpm. (lowest has been 60bpm).

During this time the amount of time i can comfortably hold my breath has greatly increased (almost double) but i am still now only getting to what the book considers healthy. I go running but don't think i am any fitter over the period. Not wanting to offer false hopes & lets face it we may be trying many different things at any one time but this seems to be slowing me down & i don't feel so spaced out. No quick fix & could take a year to correct but perhaps another tool for the box & another way into the anxiety loop.

I also no longer experience any awareness of my heart beating. All feels calm but it is interesting whilst taking pulse how much it speeds up & slows down at different stages of the in & outbreath.

The book has all the medical advice & disclaimers & is called Close your mouth by Patrick Mckeown.

Simon :)

[thetube82]

i didnt think over-breathing caused panic attacks, i thought hyperventilating was a symptom of panic attacks??

does this mean if i over-breath on purpose i will have a panic attack?

thetube82

[StoneMonkey]

Hi tube 82
There is hyperventilation Syndrome or breathing pattern disorders which are more subtle & continuous that can cause symptoms. There is probably a better explanation on the left than i can give.
Hyperventilating during a panic attack is acute.

There is a book called Hyperventilation Syndrome which says less easy to spot is chronic hyperventilation a breathing pattern disorder in which over-breathing becomes a habit. That is what i have been suspicious of with me.

It is a bit complex. From the top of the thread i only thought overbreathing was an acute event like during a panic attack. Good question on if you delib overbreathe would you have a panic attack. I can't answer it. You may experience some spaced out or light headed sensations or symptoms that might trigger one. I guess its all connected some way.

Simon.

[FreeSpirit]

I recently watched a prog on tv called 'embarrassing illness' ..the presenter sent herself into a panic attack by deliberatley over breathing... so yes thetube82 you can bring on a panic attack that way..

[Martin Burridge]

To go back to the original question "can overbreathing cause panic attacks" the answer is :-
In the case of Panic Disorder (as opposed to a phobia) the thing that causes Panic Attacks is the fear of panic attacks.Nothing more nothing less.

Anything related to that fear can trigger a panic attack. People with panic disorder are constantly monitoring themselves for signs of a panic attack.

If they notice a perceived change in breathing they then fear that it is a panic attack coming on. This speeds the heart and breathing rate up which then increases their anxiety and before they know it they are in the grip of a panic attack.

Breathing fast and shallow can make you feel dizzy which PD sufferers then often interpret as sign that they are going to faint causing yet more anxiety (even though they will not actuallly faint)

To better understand how a panic attack happens google 'The Panic Cycle'. Its a well known diagram used by CBT practitioners to show clients how a panic attack develops