View Full Version : Exposure therapy - Your adventures
It's been a long time since I did it, but I tried it recently and hopefully I'll continue. It's been interesting.
Last week, I went across the road and had a beer and a sandwich in a cafe. Because it's only across the road, the distance isn't in assue, but I have a weird thing about eating in public. So, I ate in public. When the sandwich was served, it was on a plate, which worried my briefly beause it sort of commited me to stay there. So I paid upfront and said to the girl serving me that it was because I wouldn't want to panic and run off without paying. So I sat there, with beer, sandwich, cigarette, and music playing on my phone, and reading a book. It was so easy, it was laughable. From time to time I looked at my flat and said "that's my comfort zone, I'm just over here". After a while I felt no need. Easy.
A couple of days later, I went to the pub, with my book. I looked around and kept reminding myself that everything around me means nothing other than what it is. No threat. Again, quite easy.
Yesterday I went for a walk. I met a woman with a pram, and a drug dealer, whose number I took down, just to be polite. As I walked, I felt weird and almost slightly dizzy. It was good stuff, I enjoyed it, and I deliberately blurred my vision to see how that felt. Easy. No threat, no danger, nothing, just silly unnecessary sensations that I played with.
Today, I went for a much longer walk. I went into some allotments that I came across and had a chat with some old man who was there, then I went on my way. I got a bit lost, and it was fine. I walked into shops, and started telling myself "oooh, what if I panic?" and thinking about things that might make me feel queasy. Nothing happened. I was trying to make myself feel panicky but I just couldn't do it. What a joke, what an amusing irony. I laugh in its face.
Panic is nothing. It's ridiculous. It's just a bad habit, and underneath all of the drama, it's weak. Panic isn't the problem, it's fearing the sensations that is the problem. I want to panic and test myself more. I don't want to be safe, I want to feel it and get to the other side. Hopefully tomorrow, if I try again, I'll feel worse. I want to see just how weak it is, and watch it fade.
Has anyone else tried exposing themselves to the nonsense that we call anxiety and panic?
I feel like this every hour of every day of every week and do like you do - go out and walk - and talk to myself "see, that wasn't so bad", lets walk a bit further etc, etc, etc - sometimes it helps - sometimes not but thats the way it is for me - getting there slowly :) Yes like you my home is my "safe haven"
Hi there,
You are completely right, panic/anxiety is a habit and thats it. We all build it up to be some terrible thing, but its really just a bad habit that is easily solvable.
It suprises me how many desperate posts about how awful anxiety is that are on this board. It should be a forum of positivity, so tha tno matter how bad anyon is feeling, they can come on here, read some positive thoughts and get some new ideas to feel better.
So thanks for your post.
allergyphobia
17-08-10, 17:28
I love this post. I think the best phrase i've heard is "feel the fear and do it anyway". we need to belittle our anxiety not ourselves - to challenge ourselves and then know actually i'm still here, nothing happened...
my anxiety stems from having a persistent cough and allergies (mild). at one point my anxiety of food got so bad i was just eating bread and butter and not much else... but through exposure to my fears i am gradually building up my food groups again. you can chat about your fears and avoid things til the cows come home but none of that is actively trying to conquer your anxiety... it's hard work, it's scary, but once you can start to push through your boundaries it is SO worth it.
Thanks for a great read x
Hi there. Ive been really pushing myself lately. A few weeks ago I could hardly make it to Tescos without turning round and coming back and now? Ive drived 1hour 30 mins to my new house. Ive been into town and out to a retail park!
Im so glad Ive been doing exposure :)
The main thing I learnt is that the anticipation of the event is usually 300 times worse than the actual event.
I've literally just walked through the door after today's adventure. I walked to the job centre, for no reason other than the fact that I have negative associations with it. I walked in and looked around, and you're not allowed to eat or drink or use your phone in there, so I took a few sips of water (actually it was chamomile tea) from my bottle, hoping to get told off because I really hate their attitude and I wanted to observe it, in the hope that it would make me feel uneasy, but no one said anything. So I walked on.
I just kept on walking until I got to a hospital, which I decided to go into. Hospitals make feel feel queasy, and that was a good opportunity for a challenge. So I walked in, and asked about cognitive behavioural therapy. The woman at the reception couldn't even say it, she had no clue about it, and she spent some time ion the phone asking people about it, which made me impatient, which was good because it also made me feel anxious about becoming anxious (if you know what I mean, I wasn't really anxious, it was the expectation of it). Then when I walked out, I felt dizzy for a split second, which was interesting, and I disregarded it completely, and saw it for what it was : nothing, just a glitch in my response mechanism, so I told it to shut up, and I moved on. I was surprised to experience myself finding it so easy to disregard it.
I walked to the bus stop, then the next one, and the next, until I found myself a mile and a half from home. As I got to the next town, I started feeling weird, which was just what I wanted, and I talked myself through it, telling myself in lots of different ways that it's just a habit, and that I'm not really fearing anything, and that nothing about me is in danger, it's just an overreactive response system, and I can calm it down and teach it what is appropriate and what isn't, and that walking down the street is not an appropriate situation for any alert. From time to time whenever I crossed the road, traffic was moving fast, and so I experienced the normal reaction which is to be alert and move fast. When that happened I said to myself "See? Now that's the right time to be on alert". The fact that the reaction lasted just a split second and left no lingering sensation of danger showed me the obvious : When it is appropriate to feel a sense of danger, the reaction itself behaves in a normal way, it does its job then goes away, but when you yourself know that it's not appropriate, that's when it gets exaggerated and behaves abnormally, because it itself knows that it's not wanted. It's like a person rushing to help you, then getting embarassed at the fact that they were overreacting, and then behaving strangely, maybe even defensively, as if to say "erm, are you sure there's no danger? Come on, there must be". It's so silly.
Then I walked in to a supermarket and got something to eat, and then I got the bus and went home, except that I got off after just a few stops and walked all the way home, past all the usual familiar sights that I see almost every day, but this time, with no anxiety of any kind. I could have carried on for longer but I thought maybe I should leave a bit of curiosity for tomorrow. Besides, I'm hungry. See how my thoughts are focuissed on normal things? This was very easy, so easy it's almost boring.
What a joke this all is. To think that all you have to do is decide what your limit is, go to that limit, and then stretch it every day. I got through the dizziness (it was very subtle, but it was there from time to time), the dry mouth (the chamomile tea didn't help, which is why I kept drinking it on purpose), the worry about worrying, the negative associations, nothing stopped me. Not even when I made it easy for the anxiety. It's like it's learning from my behaviour, it's realising that it has made a big mistake in thinking that I'm in any danger, and that it's a better judge of what's real and what isn't than I am. In a way I feel embarassed for it.
Anxious_gal
18-08-10, 00:05
wow your doing so well!
I started walking walking more too. The last time I started to panic and hyperventilate (my worst fear) on my way into town and i just decided that i was in control of my own body and walked through the panic.
how do you feel in confined places such as buses where you cant escape from?
at the moment i find walking helps but i also need to learn how to get through a panic or glitch while on a bus or train.
I always try to see the positive in every situation. So when I'm on a bus, I think "well, at least I have the choice to get off every couple of minutes", and when I'm on a train I think "well, at least my choices are restricted, which makes it easier to not want to escape". I'll tell myself whatever it takes to feel ok, and I don't care about the facts. I'll turn anything into what I want it to be. But generally I prefer buses. I don't mind lifts as long as it doesn't take long, although my masochist side enjoys the idea of being confined. I have to say, sometimes when I feel stuck somewhere, a part of me likes it, and I think it's because it sees it as a chance to wake up and realise that there's no problem. If I keep doing what I'm doing I will consciously be fine with all situations.
Tomorrow I'm going to take a bus to a destination (rather than walking, in order to get that feeling of being whisked away), and I'm going to either eat or drink somewhere, and I'm going to go down some backstreets and get a bit lost, and I'm going to get away from the bus route and then onto another one, so that there will be a period of time when I'll be unsure of whether to keep going or turn back. And while I'm at it, I might even mimick being sick, and make myself a bit dizzy, and give myself some negative self talk, just for a laugh, to see if I can handle it (I know I can). If I don't do this tomorrow, I'll eat my hat.
Last night, after yesterday's challenge, I felt a bit strange when I went to bed, and it lasted for a long time. It was mild, very mild, but annoying. I think it was the panic taking its revenge for what I did. And now I'm slightly worried that It will happen again. But actually, I'm too bored with it to care. I think it's just me adjusting.
Keep up with your good posts :yesyes:
Love Petra :D
I want to panic and test myself more. I don't want to be safe, I want to feel it and get to the other side.
So you're travelling all around the area to find somewhere that will induce a panic so that you can test yourself to prove to yourself there's nothing to fear?
And yet, you say It's been interesting. but not frightening?
And that It was good stuff, I enjoyed it?
And you say in the last post But actually, I'm too bored with it to care? This was very easy, so easy it's almost boring.
If going out travelling everywhere doesn't frighten you and you don't feel stressed, you're not going to experience any panics which is why It was so easy, it was laughable.
I can understand your reasoning but I don't really feel you need to constantly test yourself by trying to find somewhere that frightens you because you can travel anywhere you like already with only feelings of being a little anxious which is normal.
If it bores you then you're already coping ok....and that's good enough as it is.
We don't find panics. Panics find "us" when we're under too much stress and feel afraid but you're feeling neither going about your daily life so you won't find one to test yourself with no matter how far you travel or wherever you visit.
I'd suggest you get on with enjoying life and ignore them and IF at some time a panic does appear due to circumstances in the future THEN use your exposure therapy because at the moment you're doing just fine!
Why go hunting in a jungle for a tiger when it won't bother you if you don't bother it?
Your advice Is good and it's what sufferers should do "when" panics surface in certain situations.
However, you're doing perfectly well as you are so there's really no need to find somewhere in an attempt to make yourself panic because you won't find one while it bores you and you're enjoying yourself!:)
Excellent post again Bill ...:hugs: luv Sue xxx:winks:
Veronica H
18-08-10, 15:01
:yesyes:well done Leafar for facing your fears and proving to yourself that these were false threats created by sensitised nerves. Once the fight or flight kicks in and the brain registers the threat (which for many of us could be something as simple as swallowing, or stepping outside the door) then the quicker we can reverse that message the better. Phobias are so difficult to fix if we let them run on,and they close our lives down very quickly.:bighug1:Great thread.
Veronicax
Great postings Leafar- truly inspirational
Thankyou
John
Leafar:)
I found this in one of your old posts which I found rather interesting because I think it explains why you're trying to induce a panic attack...
Before i forget, i went to the doctor yesterday....I told her that in 7 years id only had maybe 3,4,5 or 6 mild panic attacks, and the rest of the problem is merely worrying that ill have one.
I saw her typing her notes, and she said i had severe panic attacks. What a stupid thing to put down. No way can what ive had be described as severe. I wouldnt even call the worrying severe, just frequent.
i do want to make another appointment just to tell her to change my records so that it doesnt say that i have severe panic attacks.
So in effect it would seem to mean that you've never actually experienced a severe panic attack. You just worry in case you have one. Therefore, your exposure therapy is really an attempt to induce a panic attack by putting yourself in places you hope will trigger one. In that way you hope it will help you confront your worry of actually experiencing an attack so that you can prove to yourself you have no reason to worry about them occurring.....rather than the usual case of using exposure therapy to help someone who "actually experiences severe attacks" by way of helping them overcome the frightening symptoms they feel.
You have a fear of panics but only because you worry about experiencing them rather than needing exposure therapy to overcome their symptoms.
I think I understand.:winks:
Rather than going all around town trying to induce a panic to overcome your worry of experiencing a panic, I think you just need to keep reminding yourself you've never actually experienced a severe panic attack and that they don't happen unless you feel overstressed or really frightened so really you have nothing to fear as you just worry about having them rather than actually experienced them.
I think this explains why you're trying to make yourself feel a panic because you're hoping then it'll stop you worrying about actually having them but there's really no need to go to such lengths because panics don't work like that.
It's like trying to find a flower to make you sneeze because you have a worry about sneezing. It's just a worry so if you avoid flowers, you don't sneeze just as if you avoid too much stress you won't get panics and as far as I can tell you're enjoying yourself and feeling relaxed in which case no matter where you go or what situation you put yourself in, panics won't surface because they can't be created like that to overcome your worry about ever experiencing one.
Just try to ignore your worry and carry on enjoying yourself, and in return they'll carry on never troubling you with any severity just as before.
Otherwise it's good to hear how well you're coping going out everywhere.:)
Maybe it's coming across like that, but I have panicked. Not often, but it has happened. But although I don't have an issue with panicking often, I do have an issue with worrying too much about it happening. That's what I want to deal with, and it really is something that needs dealing with. I have to do this. I never used to worry about panicking, and now I do, and it does restrict what I do, and it does inconvenience me. That to me is a problem, and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing until it goes away. It's not as simple as saying "you hardly ever panic, so forget about it", because the fact that it's on my mind means that it's a problem. I'm going to keep challenging myself, and my approach is going to come in 2 parts : 1 - try not to think about it too much, and relax, and 2 - if I feel it coming, challenge it to do its worst, and go through it. I may somehow be giving you the impression that I'm making a big deal out of something whih isn't much of an issue, but it is an issue. It's just that I have a very positive approach to it, which may be misleading and may make you think that there's no problem. And that's exactly the idea, to brainwash myself back into the truth. If anything, I'm doing too well.
sketchyboots
19-08-10, 13:11
Good posts. I think exposure therapy is one of the best ways to beat fear and anxiety. Last year I was so anxious I could barely walk to the corner shop - the effort required to go out was tremendous. Driving my car is another source of anxiety for me. I got prescribed beta-blockers recentley and they have helped with the driving panics alot but the thing that mostly helps is just getting on and doing what I am afraid of. It can be very tiring at first and I'm not suprised you felt strange when you got into bed that night. But it is great that you are exposing yourself and leaving your safety zone. That is a major step forward. I would try not to do TOO much in one day though as it could make you tired. At least you know you can do it and the reality out there is not as scary as you thought it might be. You are definitely making major progress through anxiety and I think I am as well now. I sometimes have some days that are worse than others - I think that's quite normal. I've got a job interview next week and yes, I'm nervous as hell but I am SO BORED with being stuck inside on my own during the days that I am determined to get some form of job to occupy my time. You're right - anxiety IS very boring!!! I think people have to get to the point of being bored with it. When you get to that boredom stage you know you're on your way. Keep posting because it's good to give people that are really struggling some hope that there is a way forward through this anxiety trap.
The plan yesterday was to get a bus to a destination rather than walk, and to go somewhere (like a cafe) and have something to eat or drink. I didn't do it, but I did something similar today. I didn't do it quite how I planned, partly due to how I late I left it, and partly because I don't know why, but it doesn't matter. At least I got out and about.
I got on a bus, then got off after 2 stops, then walked through a park, then walked to a shop and bought a packet of crisps and started eating straight away. If I had to rate 0 as complete calm, and 10 as a panic attack, I'd say that throughout the whole thing, I was at between 0.5 and 1. In other words, practically nothing. At times I almost forgot what I was trying to do and it felt completely normal. Then I went home, via the supermarket and did some shopping. Usually I listen to a recording that I have on my phone (by a Mr Linden) but this time I hardly even felt the need. And throughtout the whole thing, my self talk centred around how easy it is, that there's no threat. I did occasionally get a slight dizzy feeling, but I found that whether or not I ignored it or paid attention to it, it didn't escalate. I'm starting to think that my subcon is starting to get the message, and that any little sensations are (as I told myself) just the shadows of something that was never real in the first place.
This is getting too easy, but I don't think I'm challenging myself enough. I need to get to a point where I'm so busy actually going places for its own sake that I forget what the whole idea was in the first place. It's not good to get complacent. I did all of this kind of stuff a long time ago and I was going on trains and buses but then I stopped, thinking it was fine. This is something that has to be done a lot, and I have to be thorough. At some point I want to experience a proper panic attack again. Only when I do, and only when I can get through it calmly will I know that I'm getting somewhere. But I get the feeling that the more I do what I'm doing, the chances of it happening will dwindle, but I don't want to be surprised one day so I want to experience it. A couple of years ago I had a panic attack and a part of me was enjoying it. I want that again, but this time, with the understanding that I have now, which I didn't have then.
So tomorrow, hopefully, I'm going to get on a train, and when I get to where I'm going, I'm going to try and hyperventilate or make myself dizzy, or get myself into a situation that I'm uncomfortable with. And I'm going to have negative thoughts. I'm going to replicate all the sensations that I hate. Then if I panic, in other words when I have it cornered, I'm going to get through it.
My plan, roughly, is to gradually travel further and further, and eventually leave London, and keep going, and maybe stay the night in a bed and breakfast somewhere, and take it from there. Then at some point, hopefully, I'll get on a plane to Tenerife (which is where I'm from). And then after that, I'll go into space. Then again maybe that won't be necessary. But you never know.
Also, last night I didn't have any weird sensations when I went to bed (like I had the night before and the night before that). I was calm. And today I didn't have any worries about if I've eaten enough (which I've had over the last few days). Panic? What panic?
leafar I understand what you think you are trying to do. However, as someone who has been totally debilitated by agoraphobia and panic attacks, I find some of your blase remarks about it all being too easy and boring quite offensive.
Do you work? I hope you are not claiming benefits for incapacity due to anxiety. My suggestion for you to overcome the niggles you have is to get a life, since you are so fortunate.
Leafar:)
I don't have an issue with panicking often, I do have an issue with worrying too much about it happening.
We all get worries but if I tried to to use exposure therapy for every little worry that makes me feel anxious, I'd never have a life or get anything done. Exposure therapy is used to overcome our fears and the symptoms they produce to prove to ourselves we have nothing to fear.
myself dizzy, or get myself into a situation that I'm uncomfortable with. And I'm going to have negative thoughts. I'm going to replicate all the sensations that I hate. Then if I panic, in other words when I have it cornered, I'm going to get through it.
And you think that if you achieve that it will stop you worrying about panic attacks happening? Well, firstly, it's very difficult to create something that happens naturally when we're overstressed and secondly, you admit to feeling relaxed and enjoying yourself but to suffer a severe panic you have to feel really frightened.
My plan, roughly, is to gradually travel further and further, and eventually leave London, and keep going, and maybe stay the night in a bed and breakfast somewhere, and take it from there. Then at some point, hopefully, I'll get on a plane to Tenerife (which is where I'm from). And then after that, I'll go into space.
Therefore, you may well find you'll have to go into space to induce a panic.
I just feel you're using a good method but not in the right way or for the right reasons, and you're taking it to unnecessary extremes to stop a worry that could never happen.
For instance, you could say you have a worry about getting run over so to stop the worry you then place yourself in the middle of the road and wait to get hit by a juggernaut. It would certainly remove your worry but using exposure therapy to that extreme to just remove a worry would don't you think seem a little pointless?!? Therefore, why try to experience a severe panic just to stop you worrying about them happening? You use exposure therapy AFTER they've happened just as you would if you had a spider phobia.
Like I say Leafar, do you Really want to travel into space just to overcome a "worry" even if you can't stop worrying about it?
One other thought- even if you did overcome this worry using this approach, you will soon find yourself worrying about something else such as not being able to breathe. You might then think putting a bag over your head would remove the worry of it happening...but I certainly wouldn't suggest you use exposure therapy in that way either.
There are better ways of coping with obsessive worries than using a method for the wrong reason in such an extreme way.
Hope you see what I mean before you end up travelling all around the world, or worse and then find yourself with another worry you want to overcome using the same approach.:shrug:
Just to add....
In effect your worry is an "intrusive thought" because you can't stop worrying about it. By using the approach you're using you're actually "feeding" your anxiety by focusing on it all the time. Therefore, you're actually not only using the wrong approach but you're making your worry worse!
Like all intrusive thoughts, what you ought to be doing is allowing yourself to think about your worry without "reacting" to it. In that way you then lose your fear of it by allowing yourself to expose your mind to the thought without allowing it to trouble you.
Maybe you've just misinterpretated what you've read or been told because you're using this therapy in the wrong way for the wrong reasons.
I don't think any of us would like to see you signing up with NASA just to overcome a worry that you can't stop thinking about which then makes you feel you have to go to such extremes because in effect you're re-inforcing your worry by constantly dwelling on it and feeding it by travelling all over the world in an attempt to make yourself panic to overcome a worry.
You're just using a good method but in totally the wrong way and doing yourself more harm than good.
I think you ought to find a Good therapist who will show you the right ways to overcome your worries.
Well said as usual Bill.
Leafar maybe you should rethink your strategy. As you can see your posts have illicitated a lot of negative responses from people who usually try very hard to understand each other and be supportive. If you are trying to share a method of reducing anxiety and negative thinking, as Bill says you are going about it the wrong way. If you are trying to deliberately provoke, that is cruel and insinsitive, not funny.
Perhaps you could explain your purpose and where you have learnt your methods more clearly in order that we might help you, which is the way we usually work on nmp.
GlasgowGuy
20-08-10, 09:21
I've used the same therapy aswell as leafar. I won't name names as I don't think we are allowed to. I think a lot of that therapy is good in putting into perspective anxiety but I did feel 'I'm distracting myself for a reason' and that was always at the back of my head.
I think it can and cannot work for you depends on the person.
Today's adventure :
Got on a bus towards a part of town that I used to go to all the time, realised that I forgot my bottle of water (which I'd usually take with me), it didn't bother me (I would normally think it would), wondered if it could be that I'm starting to care less about having such crutches with me, got off the bus, went home, no problem. Anxiety level throughout : none.
Anyone who is trying to combat their illness by doing something positive everyday needs to be encouraged .& applauded ..I honestly think Leafar that you have read stuff and have not really understood what your problem is .Bill has written you an excellent reply and Chem has responded to you also .Yet you seem to ignore what they are saying .Or maybe you didnt see the posts ?? People here will support you Leafar ,at least acknowledge them .They have taken the time to respond because they care ..Sue
I appreciate all comments. What have I not understood? A lot of what Bill says is based on his assumption that I have no issue with anxiety. But I know that I do. Also, anxiety isn't an illness, it's a bad habit.
The reason why I try to avoid getting into a dialogue about this is because Bill for some strange reason is convinced that I have no issue with anxiety, whereas I know that I do. I'm prepared to consider the idea that I'm missing something, but I know myself, and I know that I have an issue to deal with, and I'm going about it the right way. By all means, tell me what you think I'm missing.
Leafar,
Bill is a valued member here on nmp and i don't think he would say you dont have an anxiety issue i think its just more that you seem on a mission to prove that you don't have one!!
And if you don't have one and you find it so easy to do the things in life that other members on nmp can't, then it sounds a bit patronisining rather than encouraging.
Maybe if you thought more on how you write things, rather than just type away, people may get a better understanding of what you are trying to say, and i'd appreciate if you didn't mention anyones paid methods of your success as its not allowed here on NMP.
Regards
Di.
Im sure Bill will respond later .So I will add just one thing as Im off to bed in a min .Anxiety is a Habit you say ? I say its a natural response .Thinking of anxiety is a habit .BOTH are different .So should be therefore treated different .Night for now .Sue
Sue, I agree. We're just using different words.
Diane, my priority isn't to be understood. A lot of what I say on here is self talk, and my self talk is positive. So, if it sounds like I don't really have an issue with anxiety and that all I'm trying to do is prove to mself that I don't, then that's just the impression that the other person gets. The reality is that I do have an issue with anxiety, and that my self talk is positive. I can't be responsible for other people's take on what I say, and I can't get into a dialogue with every single person who gets the wrong impression. My priority is to myself. If anyone doesn't understand what I mean, they can ask, instead of telling me. I appreciate Bill's comments and yesterday I was going to respond in detail, until I realised that it would just be an exercise in clarifying myself when it shouldn't be necessary. If I clarified myself to every single person who got the wrong impression I wouldn't have time for anything else.
The same goes for if anyone feels that I'm being patronising. Yes, I am very patronising, patronising towards the ridiculous issue of anxiety that I have and which I can overcome totally, and which anyone can overcome. I laugh in its face, that's my thing, that's how I am. If that makes anyone uncomfortable, I can't help that.
And now looks at what's happened. I've allowed myself to get caught up in a melodramatic discussion which is completely irrelevant and unnecessary. I use the phrase "allowed myself" because I've done it to myself. I'm not blaming anyone else. I feel the urge to keep typing and justifying myself but instead, I'm going to stop.
nomorepanic
21-08-10, 01:03
When are you going to overcome this anxiety can I ask and how are you going to do it?
I think saying that "anyone can overcome" it is a bit patronising as I have suffered a long long time and I am still not completely over it but I live a perfectly normal life most of the time
Do you work at all?
melodramatic discussion, which is completely irrelevant and unnecessary?????
This is an anxiety site for anxiety, panic attacks, ocd, depression, the list goes on and you call it melodramatic???
If you can overcome it totally................great!! that is just you
You may laugh in its face but not everyone can do that or we would have no need for NMP, thats your thing and how you are..............but not everyone...
That is the bit that you need to understand, and if it makes people on nmp uncomfortable then that is my job to sort and not yours!!
di.
Anxious_gal
21-08-10, 01:51
I must admit I did find it a bit strange that you talked of having anxiety yet you seemed to sail through all your challenges.
I think it would help if we had some comparison, like if you could talk about how you were before anxiety wise,, before you started pushing yourself.
I must also say that yes even I had a small twinge of jealousy when I saw how "easy" it seemed for you to over come the anxiety.
I do think your doing well and please don;t stop posting
I hope I haven't offended you. I just wanted to be honest, so may see how other members may be viewing your post.
Leafar,:)
I'm sorry but you're misunderstanding me and my intentions again. I'm Only trying to help you and yes, I admit I could be wrong but I can't help feeling you're tackling your worry in the wrong way.
Firstly, I've NO doubt that you DO indeed suffer from anxiety otherwise you wouldn't have said this....
I told her that in 7 years id only had maybe 3,4,5 or 6 mild panic attacks, and the rest of the problem is merely worrying that ill have one.
The point I was questioning though is that you're using exposure therapy when you Haven't suffered from any "severe" panic attacks and so I was just trying to explain to you that I feel you are tackling your anxiety in the wrong way. I honestly fear that the path you're taking will be endless because of the way you're using exposure therapy.
Exposure therapy IS a really good method to use but you Have to use it correctly for the individuals issues they are attempting to overcome because the way you use the therapy isn't the same for everyone.
I'll see if I can try another way to explain to you.....
A person with anxiety could go out one day and be travelling on a bus. Out of the blue they then suffer "a severe panic attack". This then frightens them SO much that every time they even think of getting on a bus they start to panic. When they then do attempt to get on a bus, they then suffer more "severe panic attacks".
Exposure therapy would then be used to show them how to remain relaxed in situations that make them panic so they then realise it's not the situation that is frightening but the connection they make with the situation due to their bad experience and the symptoms they FELT which frightened them so much.
Another way of using exposure therapy is for phobias so that the sufferer "gradually" becomes accustomed to overcome whatever it is that makes them panic such as going near dogs, ladders, spiders etc.
One other form of exposure therapy would be to de-sensitise the mind so that thoughts that cause panic no longer trigger panic symptoms. Using exposure therapy is this form would be to get the sufferer to "expose" their minds to listening to the words or visual fears over and over again so that they no longer trigger their severe panics.
You see what I mean?....
Exposure therapy IS very effective IF used in the Right way for the individuals particular issues.
So what are you missing?
Well, firstly, yes, you DO suffer from anxiety. That's clear according to what you've previously posted BUT crucially, you're NOT feeling afraid, you're NOT feeling stressed and you HAVEN'T suffered any "severe" panic attacks.
You're also NOT attempting to overcome the SYMPTOMS OF PANIC because you've NEVER felt them to the degree that makes you AFRAID of them.
Therefore, you're using exposure therapy in the wrong way for the wrong reasons.
Your issue Leafar is that you're afraid that one day you MIGHT suffer a severe panic attack. This fear is created by your WORRY that it "could" happen one day. Therefore, you're trying to place yourself in situations in an attempt to induce a severe panic to prove to yourself there is nothing to fear so that your WORRY about having a severe panic will go away rather than using exposure therapy to prove to yourself that the ACTUAL FEELINGS of a Severe attack won't harm you.
You see?...you're NOT using exposure therapy in an attempt to overcome "frightening FEELINGS", you're attempting to stop yourself WORRYING about ever experiencing those frightening feelings because you've NEVER actually experienced a severe attack so you have no actual "Severe panicky feelings" that you're attempting to overcome.
Panic attacks are caused by extreme stress or extreme fear and although you Do suffer from anxiety, your anxiety is based on WORRY and WHAT IF you suffer a severe panic attack rather than wanting to overcome ACTUAL frightening FEELINGS that you feel During an attack.
What you're doing is going out looking for somewhere that you feel will create a severe panic attack so that you can stop worrying about EVER experiencing them. This means that you are walking into hospitals, job centres etc etc and other places that have made you feel anxious in the HOPE that these situations will trigger your mind into experiencing a severe attack.
But Leafar, this will never happen because as you say, you're Enjoying yourself even if you say you do feel anxious! You're NOT feeling stressed or terrified so then how can you suffer a severe attack and therefore, how then can it ever overcome your WORRY of ever having a severe attack????
This will then mean that you'll be travelling further and further afield attempting to achieve something that I feel you'll find is IMPOSSIBLE.
And yet, you'll STILL have your worry of one day suffering a severe panic attack.
And that's it....you have a WORRY that won't go away and it NEVER will by using exposure therapy in this way.
You're NOT attempting to overcome FEELINGS. You're attempting to stop a WORRY.
I Did try to explain that worries are just like "INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS". Sometimes we can become so obsessed with a WORRY that we will try anything to make it go away when what we should be doing is learn NOT to react to it OR give it any attention.
By using exposure therapy in the way you are, you're FEEDING your anxiety without ever achieving your goal so you'll ALWAYS then have this worry.
Worry just isn't the same as Severe anxious FEELINGS so it has to be tackled in a different way.
Yes, use exposure therapy but NOT lin this way. "Expose" your mind to this worry but DON'T react to it. DON'T attempt to fight it. LET yourself think it but do NOTHING because it's just a "WORRY".
Leafar, I'm ONLY trying to help you but if you don't want to listen and end up travelling the world or go into space to overcome your worry that's causing your anxiety then that's Entirely up to you. I'm NOT wishing to cause any arguments or upset you in any way. I'm JUST trying to prevent you going round in circles and making yourself more ill.
I can only hope that one day you will find out for yourself and in the meantime OTHERS will learn by your mistakes and see for themselves what I'm trying to say.
By all means continue on this course Leafar. It IS after all ONLY my opinion and you could prove me wrong but I do have serious concerns about the path you appear to be adamant in taking.
All I'd suggest, is you ask a Good therapist whether you're using exposure therapy in the correct way for your type of anxiety. I'm perfectly willing to hear what they have to say and if they feel I'm wrong then I'm quite happy to listen and learn.
And yes, I don't feel anxiety is an illness either. The symptoms it creates just make us "feel" ill but they are actually perfectly natural. If a lion greets you, you're going to "feel" ill with anxiety because you're so afraid. Modern day lions are caused by different types of stresses we experience and yes, we do then develop a habit of allowing our minds to dwell on our worries rather than try to ignore them. Well Leafar, I just feel you're making a habit of dwelling on your worry by letting it rule your life when you should be developing a new habit of trying to ignore your worry by allowing yourself to think about your worry by "exposing" your mind to think of it WITHOUT reacting to it so that it stops making you feel anxious when you think about it.
I'm sure you must have more important things to do than visit places every day in the HOPE of overcoming a worry. I know if I'm worried about something beyond my control, I just try to do other things so I don't keep dwelling on it otherwise I know it'll make it anxious just as it is for you.
One last attempt...if you have a WORRY about being bitten by your pet dog BUT you DON'T actually FEAR smoothing him, would using exposure therapy by forcing yourself to smooth him actually make him bite you??? So then, how would using exposure therapy in THIS way then stop you WORRYING about him one day biting you? He will most probably Never bite you but you'll continue having the same WORRY. Therefore, isn't it more effective to expose your mind to allowing yourself to THINK about the WORRY without acting on it so that in time you learn to FORGET all about your worry?
If you can't see what I'm trying to say, I just don't think I can explain any clearer but then like I say, you could be right and I'm wrong...so if you want to continue, I guess we might find out whenever you might finish your travels.
At least hopefully your thread will benefit others.
You Do evidently suffer from anxiety but I'm only going by what you've said that you've Never suffered a severe panic attack and exposure therapy is normally used to overcome the symptoms of an attack rather than the worry of them ever happening. I just feel worries need a different approach to the one you're using but I agree exposure therapy is very good even for worries- just not in the way you're using it.
Good luck Leafar...and I mean it.:winks:
Bill, I can see that you're trying to help, and it's appreciated. You see this is one of the things that I hate about forums, you only have written words to work with. If this conversation was in person, you would have understood by now (because it would be easier for me to get the point across), that you've got it all wrong (I mean that in a nice way). We don't disagree on much, except for the impression that you have of me and what I'm actually doing, which is partly down to me (ie the way I explain myself), and partly down to you (making assumptions and then running away with them - which usually irritates the hell out of me but in this case your politeness and good intentions cancels that out (mostly)).
All I'm going to say, at least for now, is that I'm not going out merely to induce a panic attack. That was just something which I mentioned as an option. There's more to what I'm doing than what I say, I'm just being selective, and I have a strange way of expressing myself. As you can see, you're the only person that I've responded to about this.
Leafer - I thought your first post was quite interesting, but after reading more i find your posts a bit patronising!! Maybe its the way you type your posts, because i dont read them as very supportive ones.
mandie
Hello Leafar,
I can understand your point about hating forums and only having written words as I agree at times they can be very misleading and therefore cause irritation so I'll keep this short and just say thank you for explaining that this is an option you have considered and that I appreciate you replying to me. Good luck.:)
No worries Bill. Trying to induce a panic attack is something which I might try from time to time, but only when I feel relatively "safe" (usually on my way back home, after I feel a sense of achievement). It's just a quick test that I do occasionally, but the way I emphasised it made it sound like it's the main thing that I'm aiming to do (the stronger I feel about something, the more I'll emphasise it, even if it's not the main point). The main approach that I'm doing is to not think about it too much, and just get out there and see what happens. I'd like to reach a stage where I won't experience any worry, regardless of whether or not I think about it, or try to induce it, or whatever. I want to get back to a normal level of sensitivity like everyone else. I also have a theory that my anxiety issue affects me in other ways too.
I think people have trouble understanding you leafar because you make all this sound very intellectual, whereas anxiety, panic, depression etc is a very emotional thing. I suppose your chief concern is whether writing all this is helping YOU and if it is then that's a positive thing, but members, in my opinion, have difficulty connecting with all this and I wonder whether this is also an isolating factor for you in your everyday life too. That's not a question for you to answer here but something that you could perhaps ask yourself. After all, life IS relationships and interaction with people.
Today's adventure was quite brief. I got on a bus, and I went out about a mile. I wanted to go further but for some reason I felt like getting off. At the bus stop (to go back home) there were quite a few people there which made me wonder if they'd all been there for ages and if maybe that meant that the bus would take ages, and then when I walked around the corner I saw a road sign saying something about a diversion. I got slightly worried that I might have to wait for a long time, which in a way I welcomed as it's good to have a challenge ("You have to suffer a bit" - wise words).
I found myself debating whether or not to walk back and maybe catch a bus if one comes, or cut across to another road where I know that I can get another bus. But then I decided to cut all that out, as it was just restless self talk, and just relax and wait. Throughout the whole thing I ould feel myself "wanting" to worry (out of habit), but at the same time I felt like there was a barrier which somehow didn't allow that, and then I realised that to worry it would take effort, which I wasn't interested in. I think I'm making progress. I should have gone out further though.
When I eventually do, it will be an interesting combination of anxiety, anxiety about anxiety, habit, comedy, a feeling of change within me, relief, and a sense of progress, in that order more or less.
And last night I didn't get the weird feeling of slight anxiety when I went to bed. I felt that "barrier", which didn't allow it. This is a big deal because yesterday my mum told me that my sister is going into hospital soon (kidney stones) and instead of worrying, I was pretty relaxed about it. Normally I'd "try" to worry, but I just didn't feel the need. I hardly gave it any thought, and when I did, I joked about it to myself instead of needlessly creating negative associations. All in all, not bad, but I've got to go further. On the one hand, I'm getting impatient (of out being so glad to have done what I've done so far) and I want to do more things to test myself, but I know what I'm like so I'll do it gradually. My obstacles are complacency, or doing too much too soon. Oh, and that silly anxiety thing that I'm phasing out.
Today I went 2 miles away from home. No anxiety, nothing at all.
I'm still doing it and it's going well.
Something strange is happening now, and it started last night. I think it may be a good sign, in its own weird sort of way, but it isn't very pleasant. Last night I was eating a banana, and when I put it down, my hand felt heavy, and I felt very slightly dizzy, not much, but just about noticeable, and it freaked me out a bit. I'm very good at coping with that sort of thing so I did, but I have no idea why that happened. I wasn't tired, so I don't see why that should happen. I went to bed earlier than usual, and today I got up considerably earlier than I usually do, and throughout the first few hours I felt weird, on and off, then it went away pretty quickly. But then later it came back and I sort of have it now. When I went for a walk about an hour ago I felt fine, in fact very fine, and maybe, this is justa theory, maybe I'm getting revrse agoraphobia, if there's such a thing, and maybe it's a result of going out almost every day on my adventures. I actually prefer being out of my flat now. If this is temporary, then that's ok and I can look on the funny (and ironic) side, but I'd like to be sure, so I'd like to ask, has anyone else ever experienced this, and do you think it's just a sign of change?
Also, I wanted to talk about this before but I don't think I'm too popular around here because of the way I communicate, so I'd also like to apologise for that. That doesn't mean I don't mean what I say, it's just that when all we have is text to communicate with (and the fact that I don't use smilies) the message can easily be lost. I am very blase about anxiety, and yes I do it very deliberately, but that's simply because a) I love mocking it, because humour really does work, and b) I'd like to think that this way of thinking can rub off on others. So when I make fun of anxiety, that's because I'm so enthisiastic about conquering it and it geuinely makes me laugh every time I do. It's relief, and I express it with humour and not taking it seriously. That's just my way. Correction, I do take it seriously because it's real, but in another sense, anxiety is nothing more than an annoying thing that doesn't deserve respect. I look at it as an enemy, and a very cowardly one that goes away just as quickly as it comes. When I go on about it the way I do, don't take it personally, just join in the fun, because the more seriously you take it, the more power it has over you. If anything I say irritates anyone, just look beyond the words, and imagine me saying it to you face to face, with a smile and lots of enthusiasm.
And now, after typing all that, the weird feeling has gone and I feel very good. See how weak it is?
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