brain aneurysm

[madeuprolemodel]

i was doing so well.... hadn't had a real panic attack for weeks now..


but it suddenly came over me... that i could just at any point have a brain aneurysm... i am now feeling terrible and really scared.

[nomorepanic]

Why are you thinking that?

Anyone could drop dead at any moment I guess but most of us don't even think about it day-to-day and brain aneurysms aren't that common really.

You need to get distracted from these thoughts as they are not useful or helpful and will just drag you down.

[madeuprolemodel]

I don't know i started to think about two people i know who had it.. and it just happend at any point..

thats what scares me and i can't get out of my head...
i was also reading its one in 15 chances.... that worries me so much


are there any symptoms?

[nomorepanic]

It won't help if I list symptoms as you will say you have them all.

Just distract yourself from the thoughts ok

My outlook on life is "what will be will be" and you cannot change when you are destined to die.

It may sound flippant but it is the best way to be so that you can enjoy life now and not wait to die!

[Jyellowhat]

Hi
I know where your coming from re aneurism, yes its easy to say that we could all die at any time etc etc, but if you suffer from Health Anxiety this can become a major issue. I would love to be able to have a headache without thinking i have a tumour, or stomach ache and think its a deadly disease but it doesnt happen. The thoughts are always there but there are times when we can dismiss them and other times when we can,t. This forum helps me a lot though and am so glad its here. I hope you get comfort from it to.

[madeuprolemodel]

thank you jyello


nicola.... its easier said than done

[nomorepanic]

Ok well look at this way...

Do you want to spend your whole life waiting to die or do you want to live life to the full whilst you can?

We only have one life and we cannot change the ultimate outcome of that.

If you suffer HA then I can recommend a few things for you:

a) get CBT help from your doc

b) read this .....

http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=76&products_id=281

c) this book in the shop is an easy read as well...

http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78&products_id=238

They may help

[KK77]

Yes, we can't avoid certain things if we're destined to get them but we just can't live life like that - we'd drive ourselves mad. Although Nic's advice is quite brutal it's the truth. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take care of ourselves either. Look to get your anxiety under control - see your doctor if necessary - but don't allow these negative thoughts to continue. Of course it's very easy to say, and I've been there, believe me.

One thing is for sure: Brain aneurysms are very rare - so don't let your imagination run wild. You'll be OK.

[nomorepanic]

Sorry if I sound flippant and dismissal - that is the way I am sometimes - direct and to the point. I mean no harm by it.

I am sympathetic to people really - I just try the hard approach as being all nicey and sympathetic does not change things ultimately.

If, however, you would rather me say "there there it will be ok" then I will.

[madeuprolemodel]

obviously not.... and im not going to be made to feel bad by posting this... i was aware this forum was to speak to people who also have this problem or who have some guidance im not saying your not guiding but i can't help but feel, this get over it attitude.

[madeuprolemodel]

i get you.... but i have been over iit for so long and its hard when it comes back

[nomorepanic]

I will remove my posts then

[nomorepanic]

It is not a "get over it" reply from me I assure you.

Sorry - my reply is from frustration that I won't go into here but I just want people to realise that they need to make the most of life as you never know when it will end.

I did not mean to bring my personal problems into this so will shut up know and remove my replies.

[KK77]

i get you.... but i have been over iit for so long and its hard when it comes back

We do understand... We're all in the same boat here. Don't get upset as Nic meant well - as did I.

[madeuprolemodel]

im sorry if that came out rude

[nomorepanic]

Please do look at the links I sent you - the free info leaflet is very good and that is available from the shop to print or read.

You weren't rude at all. I am sorry I upset you. I do understand that you are scared and upset but I just want you to realise that the likelihood is quite rare and not to waste your time worrying over it.

I am really sorry for being so direct - that is the way I am at times

[PokerFace]

Hey I get what you're sayin, I get a lot of "what if" moments and I'm terrified of having a heart attack even though I'm only 20 and the chances of me having one are very low. It's hard to just stop what we do to ourselves by overthinking statistics and stuff that have happend to other people. I get really mad at myself for not being able to accept the rational side of my brain. Like I'm worried about going to my Grandma and Grandads 40th anniversay wedding party incase I have a heart attack when rationally I'm gonna be the youngest person around that table so the chances of me dying of a heart attack compared to everyone else is next to none! Yet I still can't beleive it myself.

Nicola has very real health problems so it must be frustrating for her to see us all getting panicky over things that most probably won't ever happen to us. She knows how we feel! She means well she want's to help us all get over it cuz she's more than been there herself! (I've never spoke to her but read her story and everything)

I know how you feel a lot and sometimes it's hard to hear what people have to say to us, if you're anything like me even your family and friends are getting "tired" of you now! If you ever need to talk PM me I hope you feel better soon xxx

[KK77]

Please do look at the links I sent you - the free info leaflet is very good and that is available from the shop to print or read.

You weren't rude at all. I am sorry I upset you. I do understand that you are scared and upset but I just want you to realise that the likelihood is quite rare and not to waste your time worrying over it.

I am really sorry for being so direct - that is the way I am at times

I wish all politicians were like you Nic :wacko:

I hope you feel better soon madeuprolemodel. You weren't rude - it's just frustrating for us all...

[madeuprolemodel]

thank you all seriously....

[Jyellowhat]

Hi Nicola
Have printed off leaflet, thanks.
Think we all react to how things are said in different ways, i no personally i really do try and say wat will be will be and not let these thoughts dictate my day to day life. Its just at certain times i,m not able to control it so good. This brain of mine is soo powerful, but i carry on regardless, i do it without any meds and outwardly nobody would know that i,m like jelly inside. I,m sure any advice you give on here is taken kindly no matter how you put it across. Cos lets face it we,re all on here for help and advice from like minded people.
x

[nomorepanic]

I hope it helps jyell

My frustration is born out of years on here I guess seeing the same issues time and time again and seeing people waste such young lives on worrying.

I mean no harm and people will tell you that.

I just find it frustrating as I want to tell people to stop worrying and live life to the full.

I do bring my personal circumstances into it sometimes as I have 2 chronic illnesses to live with and have to live with that each day and I hate to see healthy people worry so much for no real reason when I have real reason to worry about my future.

I am not making excuses just explaining my frustration here.

[PokerFace]

I know Nicola, my mum is the same with me she has health issues (extremely high blood pressure, very bad asthma, diabetes. shes takes about 5/6 tablets every morning to live D: ) and she says the same stuff to me because she loves me and she KNOWS I'm perfectly healthy and wasting my life. You do a lot of good here on the HA forum. A lot of us if not all of us are truly greatful. xx

[nomorepanic]

Thanks Poker - I know I come across as being harsh and I do not mean to be. I just think that hard facts sometimes are more helpful that just being nice. I think sometimes I am wrong though and people just want to be reassured and not told hard facts.

That is me and I can only apologise for being who I am I guess.

[PokerFace]

You don't need to apologise. You're a wonderful person and if it wasn't for you we wouldn't all be here being able to reassure each other. Sometimes hard cold facts are not what people with health anx are wanting to be told but in the end it's what counts to our recovery. You do/have done a lot of good don't underestimate yourself like that. If it wasnt for you, and you cretating this site, a lot of people would be very lost right now. Me included. xxx

[debs71]

I totally get where you are coming from Nic and I can also see madeuprolemodel's side too. Anxiety stirs up so many random health worries.

I think the key to solving health anxieties, whatever they may entail, is recognising and coming to terms with the fact they are TOTALLY born from underlying bog-standard anxiety, nothing more, nothing less, and once you are fortunate enough to deal with and recognise that, the constant 'physical symptoms watching' should calm down.

As Nic said, the thing is, if an aneurysm is gonna happen, it will happen and worrying your self unwell with that thought will change nothing. I've mentioned this in another post I made (and will bore everyone again, lol).....my counsellor years ago told me 'do not waste any time dwelling on things you cannot change, like what may happen, what people think of you, as they are things you cannot control and it is waste of time. Only work on the things you can control and change.'

It sounds obvious but it is so very true.

xxx:)

[JaneC]

Nic, just wanted to say I think I understand how you feel. My husband suffers from something that a lot of people on here seem to obsess about when they don't actually have it. I'm at the the end of my tether at the mo over the effect it is having on our lives and sometimes I feel like telling them to just get a grip :blush:

I know they can't help themselves and I've never done it but the way we all are on here, dealing with our own issues, NMP is remarkably supportive and sympathetic place. Sometimes "tough love" isn't the worst thing in the world either.

Sorry, I just had such a bad few days :hugs: to all

[nomorepanic]

I have being criticised for being too honest and not sympathetic but that is my way.

I deal with facts and figures and tell it like it is.

Most don't like my direct replies but I don't like to "pussy foot" around and I tell it like I see it.

That may be a good or bad thing - who can tell?

This is me though and I cannot change that

[debs71]

I have to agree that a bit of tough love is often what we need as anxious people. I know it works for me as I have a very supportive but also very earthy Mother who tells me when I am being a silly, anxious mare too!

I think that just as much as we need a hug, a sympathetic ear or someone to tell us we will be ok, we also need the odd person to tell us to stop being so irrational, get a grip and live life, I really do. It is what keeps us sane.

Sorry you are having a difficult time JaneC.x

[JaneC]

Thanks Debs x

[debs71]

You are welcome. I hope things get better for you.x:hugs:

[RLR]

I realize that this is a dated thread, but a comment from one of the respondents caught my eye and I wanted to make a response here. It was said that "a bit of tough love is often what we need as anxious people."

I disagree entirely with that position and I would also stand in defense of Nicola's comments not being suggestive that a person should merely to "get over it."

I think her point was that excessive worry in the absence of any warranted reason very ironically robs an individual of the life they are so afraid of losing by virtue of the irrational premise of unpredictable catastrophic event.

People with anxiety simply need to better understand the object of their fears, subsequently allowing the brain to employ a rational and logical resolution. In virtually all cases where panic threshold or generalized chronic anxiety exists, it is perpetuated by irrational perceptions that, although seemingly very real, are established in the absence of any logical understanding of this issue.

It's critical to understand that from an instinctual level, the brain works very quickly to draw forth an awareness and rationalized understanding of any circumstance that produces apprehension or fear. This is a natural response and has its origins in survival instinct. In other words, the brain must establish an understanding of some type in order to subsequently create an action process necessary to properly resolve the confrontation such that safety is restored. The brain draws upon its relevant storehouse of knowledge in order to establish what it believes to be true and factual, regardless of whether it's actually accurate. So we see that whether accurate or not, a truth can be established in either instance that becomes very real. This is, incidentally, how some superstitious thought patterns and practices originate.

In the case of the sudden concern that a brain aneurysm might be present and on the verge of dissection, logic must quickly be deployed in order to avoid an irrational belief from being established. A person experiencing such a thought must intervene by asking on what basis this concern has been established, whether the person has the requisite medical training and background to reasonably warrant such a concern as being possible and lastly what actual evidence exists in support of such a notion. If you pose this test when irrational thoughts arise and no qualifying affirmation is possible, ie "what basis did I use to develop such a concern?" and "do I have the necessary skills to accurately determine whether such a concern is warranted to any degree whatsoever?" and "what evidence do I have that supports my concern?", and no logical basis can be established, then you have to seriously question your methodology as being flawed.

If your responses are anywhere within the realm of "I read somewhere that . . . " or "I have symptoms of that . . . " or "I have a friend who had this . . . " then you need to immediately pause to realize that you're using entirely baseless information or experience in order to generate a true belief and concern about something which absolutely cannot be determined accurate by such methods. It is faulty thinking and what you have interpreted to be true rather than the actual circumstances.

People with anxiety disorder are chronically anxious because they establish beliefs which make it feel as though their concerns are looming in a very real sense, readily accepting this premise as though absolutely anything is possible. We don't live in such a world at all, but rather one that obeys the laws of nature and this is especially true where medical science is concerned. When people say they read something somewhere, or had a friend with the problem, or try to associate their symptoms with an internet source, the brain is driving the conflict to resolution and people feel strangely compelled to make it all fit their predicament. They unwittingly put all the pieces together in the clear absence of the actual knowledge necessary to do so accurately, yet it becomes a true premise that is extremely difficult to extinguish. The brain drives the circumstances to become permanently imminent and looming because it must resolve the fear which has manifested in order to establish safety.

The only way to permanently extinguish anxiety disorder is to identify the source of the fear or apprehension and using accurate knowledge and logic, challenge any aspect of the source that is deemed irrational. Life does not function well in the irrational-based world and yet persons with anxiety disorder utilize it as a means to approach daily life. Fears and apprehensive states must be drawn out of the shadows into the light and scrutinized as being irrational or fact-based. Knowledge and understanding must be deployed to extinguish mistaken beliefs. I've often used the analogy of children who at a certain stage of development, come to fear that monsters are under their bed or in the closet. Once children come to understand the logic of real-world application to their fear, it becomes extinguished and replaced by a more realistic and dependable premise. In other words, through increased knowledge and experience, they come to realize that monsters don't exist and certainly not under their bed or in their closet.

Increased education about what frightens the anxious person is the key to their salvation and way home to the life they feel is lost somewhere in the dust. Tough love, by contrast, offers no path to redemption but merely the task of trying to somehow suppress fears that are unavoidably real. It's impossible to do because the brain won't allow it by virtue of instinct.

So the person initiating this thread is scared that they have an aneurysm because they don't have the factual knowledge to understand real-world aspects of who is actually susceptible to this condition, what pre-existing conditions would increase the risk of an aneurysm and what the probability of an aneurysm would actually be in their case. This person at some point has selectively interpreted what they've been told, or what they've read and what someone else said about someone they knew and established a concern in their own instance. This is where the problem begins, but not the ultimate origin for their anxiety.

Tough love produces mere avoidance behavior, not resolution.

Best regards,

Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.)

[madeuprolemodel]

You are right, i don't have knowledge on who is susceptible to brain aneurysm...or anything todo with it..


someone who i knew had one and died and also a family friend.
which sparks alarm as you said in your comment.

[debs71]

RLR - I'm sorry, but I do not agree that you can make such an across the board sweeping generalisation based on your apparent 'knolwedge' of anxiety, by saying that NO anxious person will respond to someone not entirely 'mothering' their condition. Perhaps it was my term 'tough love' that offended your intelligence, but may I remind you I was not the only poster to mention that so clearly I am not alone in thinking that maybe the totally sympathetic way is not ALWAYS the best way.

To be honest I found much of your post difficult to decipher and comprehend, and I don't consider myself a dumb person - I don't mean that immodestly either - I am a health professional myself but I did feel somewhat blinded by science by your comments.

My point about 'tough love' was that I do feel that active encouragement to see the irrationality of anxiety - and I don't care what anyone says - it IS irrational to the most part, in my opionion at least - although obviously real to the sufferer - truly helps the sufferer in the long run as consistently pandering to an anxious person that every perception of themselves, feared dangers, possible illness/death, etc. prolongs their concern about these things in my opinion and is simply not fair on them in the long run.I don't believe that this should mean the supporting person is any LESS understanding or sympathetic to the anxious persons suffering either, or telling them to 'get over it' by doing this, but surely any avenue should be explored to help someone with anxiety. I am not coming from this from an unrelatable position either - I have suffered anxiety and depression on and off for 6 years to the point of suffering a nervous breakdown stemming from panic attacks, so I entirely understand the misery and fears that anxiety causes and how real our fears can seem to be.

It did appear to me that your post, though very eloquent, was not telling us anything we don't already know in terms of the psychology of anxiety, and though very informative, at grass roots level how does that psychology HELP an anxious person? Anyone can reel off information about anxiety - there is reams and reams of it on the internet - but it is DEALING WITH IT that is the problem, and sharing our methods, ideas, experiences and opinions (tough love agreed or not) is what this forum is about is it not?

I am a registered nurse myself and I can clearly see you are commenting on this topic with a very clear cut, no nonsense, 'medical' point of view, however, as you can understand I am sure, many here are frankly not, and do not share that 'clarity' of thinking.

I think you made some interesting points though.

[KK77]

I got the impression that Debs was saying the same thing as the rest of us: ie, that as sufferers ourselves we sometimes need to give each other a kick up the bum lol - in the nicest way possible of course.

I'm also very direct and it doesn't always go down very well with some members ... but all the reassurance in the world won't alter the facts.

[RLR]

Firstly, your comment of "tough love" did not offend me in any regard. When I caption any portion of content by a respondant, I'm using it to direct my comments strictly to the original author of the thread and not the individual from which the caption was taken. It is clear by your response that it is you who feels offended in some manner and compelled to retort. Again, my comments were entirely directed at the original author of the thread, regardless of how dated it is, and not toward the individual from which I drew any captioned remark. So your statement that I'm not providing you with anything you don't already know is entirely irrelevant since I wasn't speaking to you in any regard. You didn't create the premise of tough love, but merely align yourself with it. People aren't faulted for their preferences. If you feel compelled to defend your position, speak to the author of the thread. As a physician, I have my own preferences that don't require correction.

Providing education and insight to patients is in no way "mothering" their condition or "pandering" to it, nor even sympathetic to it. Anxiety in chronic form is indeed universal and based entirely upon irrational perceptions. The absolute only form of anxiety I can contemplate where tough love would be appropriate is situational anxiety, which does not in any manner constitute a psychopathological disorder. I'm constrained to point out that it's highly doubtful that persons frequenting forums like this merely do so because they have the jitters, to coin a term in plain english.

Lastly, I'm quite perplexed by the glaring contradiction in your response. You avidly support the tough love approach, but apparently find it an impotent course to proceed in your own case of dealing with anxiety for six years or more. I should think that you would have resolved it by now using such a platform.

What I find to be the case, more often than not, is that persons who practice psychology on the premise of the wounded healer model fail to understand why others with a similar condition can't seem to overcome their own difficulties with relative ease. Having a condition does not somehow confer an expertise to properly or effectively treat and resolve the condition in others simply because you can relate to their plight, which I must tell you is most often dissimilar in many regards.

I would end my comments on this topic by pointing out more definitively that if you've suffered with the level of anxiety that you electrively describe in your posting for such an extensive period, I would be hard-pressed as a reader to place much faith at all in your own peculiar brand of treatment modality. Surely if you can't resolve the disorder in yourself, how do expect others to gain any sense of trust that it will work in their own instance?

If your sentiments are but mere opinions, then they are indeed as harmless as the ineffectiveness of the tough love approach. Many persons seeking help from the medical community already get tough love, nurse. That's why they often become relegated to forums like this one.

As for finding my discourse hard to decifer and difficult to understand, I conversely believe in speaking to people with the pre-conceived notion that that they are a great deal smarter than some people give credit. If you wish for me to communicate to you in primary educational terminology, I'll kindly oblige but I have found it to be far more irritating to others than my present form which you apparently find equally reproachable.

Best regards,

Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.)

[debs71]

Doctor, where in my post did I say I have effectively been treated by tough love alone? DO NOT put words in my mouth please. I believe I suggested a combination of both may be of use to SOME people.The fact that I still have periods of anxiety suggests I too am open to suggestion, and I have never claimed to be a success story based on tough love. Nor have I suggested it will absolutely, definitely, wholeheartedly work for others. It is a suggestion that some may find it the best course of action. Gee, relax!

Where is my contradiction? I don't feel you read my post at all! I NOT ONCE said tough love works more successfully than wholly sympathetic care. Why would I when I clearly could not base that statement on facts and figures?

You also misconstrued my comment about 'mothering' which I was refering to in terms of ways of dealing with anxiety itself, and not your educational and insightful comments as you refer to them. Nor did I in the least feel 'offended' by your mentioning tough love or took that to be directed at me alone, that is simply you feeling defensive about my post! I was simply attempting to explain my use of the term tough love, which I fully admit was not the right wording on my part, and I was concurring with Nic's views on this.

To end I will simply state I don't agree with you, and as I do not wish to reduce this thread to a rant between two members, or encourage my own anxiety at this time (as a Doctor I am sure that is your concern also) that is my final word.

[RLR]

Well . . . There is a very clear distinction between nurses and physicians, which is thankfully a separation that I'm consistently reminded is in place for a good reason.

Best regards,

Rutheford Rane, MD (ret.)

[blueangel]

This thread seems to have taken a :mad: turn, but it's interesting nevertheless.

If anyone wants my two pennyworth, I have found that the best approach to my own anxiety is by being matter-of-fact about it. This is how my excellent GP deals with it; he doesn't try to gloss over it, or ignore it, or decry it, but takes the attitude of "OK, this is the problem, what can we do about it." But what he DOESN'T do is feed my anxiety, which is the dangerous thing for some (many?) sufferers. If I ask a question, he will answer it honestly and provide evidence to back up what he is saying.

However, the key thing here is that I trust him - trusting the person giving out the advice is very important, if not fundamental, as to whether that advice will do any good.

I can also see where Nicola is coming from in her blunt approach. I've suffered with anxiety for a lot of my life and have wasted so much time on it; it's caused me lack of sleep, poor quality of life and has stopped me doing many things. Like her, I can see the young people on here and feel really sad that they're locked into the same cycle that I was 25-30 years ago, and I would love to be able to provide the gem of advice that could get even one person off the treadmill that I've lived on. I so wish that there had been places like this when I'd first really suffered from anxiety, as I'm sure it would have helped.

Having said that though, many aspects of my anxiety are much, much better than they used to be. Don't forget that knowledge is power - when you know that your chance of getting "illness X" are actually really low, you can put it aside and stop worrying about it.

Live well - that's the key; if you live well and look after yourself, you can be more secure in the knowledge that you're in better control of your own health, as it's control that we all crave. It's the things that we cannot control that we are afraid of.