Do People With Panic Attacks Have Something Physically Wrong? [Archive]

European

30-09-10, 21:04

A lot of research has gone into this subject over the years, but there is nothing to suggest that anxiety and depressive disorders are being caused by a chemical imbalance within the brain. I repeat: No credible evidence whatsoever!

The theory has been peddled predominantly by the marketing departments of the pharmaceutical industry in order to sell their latest products, and it is probably not surprising that these companies have muddied the waters considerably as regards so called "independent research" that led to the chemical imbalance theory, as there is a lot of money to be made on the back of this theory.

On the other hand it is people suffering anxiety, depression and other mood disorders, who are often buying into the chemical imbalance myth far too easily - after all, it is comparatively easy to just pop a pill and expect to be cured, as this only requires a minimum effort.
Unfortunately, as each and everyone on this website can probably confirm, there are no quick fixes, no easy cures, and it takes a little bit more input in order to work oneself through one's disorder and manage to find ways to overcome it.

Research these days indicates that, unless one suffers from *sever* depression, medication doesn't work beyond a placebo effect. And the one treatment that has been standing out consistently, not least in view of its high success rate, has been Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

I find it deplorable that the whole chemical imbalance theory is peddled, and peddled again, by people who are suffering from a mood disorder. There is so much ignorance and misinformation, making the suffering only worse via confusion and myths.
I can't help noticing the irony in this, as everybody I know who advocates medication as a solution has been suffering on and off, sometimes for decades, with their medication.
If medication was really a long term solution, how come it only makes a difference on the surface? After all, I've yet to meet a single person who really has had a chemical imbalance of the brain, and has been cured on the basis of pills alone....

Anxious_gal

30-09-10, 23:10

could be a genetic defect, like they just found a gene that causes OCD in mice.

Xavier

01-10-10, 00:28

Neither of my parents have ever had any mental illness but my grandmother has suffered badly with depression and panic attacks throughout her life, so I guess it could be genetic and missed a generation.

How common exactly is panic attacks does anyone know?

JaneC

01-10-10, 01:11

I don't know what goes on in my brain :madness: but I will say that I quite categorically believe that anti-depressants do something to my brain or body that enables me to function as a person in a way I could not otherwise do and am just as sceptical about the new hype placebo theory as some people are about meds.

Neither do I understand why one or two people on here have been making much of the fact lately that ADs are not a "cure". Who said they were? They are a treatment. Like you take insulin as a treatment when you are diabetic or thyroxine as a treatment for underactive thyroid. Neither will cure you; they just replace something the body should be doing for itself but for some reason isn't. Why can't it be the same with ADs?

Blood beginning to boil :mad:

European

01-10-10, 18:07

I think it is very dangerous to spread the belief that mood disorders are caused endogenously or genetically. Moreover, there is no hard evidence for this whatsoever (and trust me, I've looked!).

I think pinning the root causes of whatever mood disorder one is suffering from on some external factors is basically nothing more than avoidance behaviour. It means not taking responsibility, because, after all, whatever is wrong is caused externally and by factors out of one's control.
This might be convenient short term, but in the long run this attitude has the flip-side of rendering people entirely powerless and helpless. In short, it's not doing anybody any favours whatsoever.

"Like you take insulin as a treatment when you are diabetic or thyroxine as a treatment for underactive thyroid. Neither will cure you; they just replace something the body should be doing for itself but for some reason isn't. Why can't it be the same with ADs?"

Because Anxiety Disorder is overwhelmingly not caused by endogenous factors, but on the basis of negative and self-defeating belief systems and attitudes. In other words, it's not our genes and brain chemistry that is causing our suffering, but we are often our own worst enemies in the negative way we treat ourselves and the negative way we deal with our lives. And there are a lot of things we can pro-actively do about this, which will help us to come to some kind of acceptance, but also help and empower us to deal with the disorder and own our lives again, as opposed to merely making ourselves dependent on pills in the long run.

Think about it this way: If Anxiety Disorder was really caused by endogenous or genetic factors, how would you explain the success of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, for example?
How come that CBT is by far the most successful method of treating AD, and, as the latest research suggests, considerably more successful than medication?

I'm 99.9% anxiety free these days thanks to CBT - and yet, my brain is still the same. If there had been something wrong with it in the first place, I don't think I would have got where I'm now without medical intervention. In the same way that you couldn't treat diabetes or thyroid problems with psychotherapy, as neither of them would respond to it on the basis of them being caused by physical factors.

Be that as it may, I think the crux of the matter is to take responsibility for oneself, as opposed to being excused by external factors and expect others or other outside factors to make a difference or offer a solution or permanent cure. In my experience, help is not likely to come from outside, but it is ultimately much more empowering to face up to the problem and start to help oneself. And CBT has a lot of assistance to offer in this respect.

caz1625

01-10-10, 18:31

I understand that CBT worked for you but it doesn't work for everyone.

I have suffered with panic attacks for 25years and have tried every treatment out there. And CBT didn't work for me..........and it wasn't that I didn't want it to work I worked desperately hard with my therapist. Infact it was actually my therapist that advised me to go the the docs and ask for bloods to be done as he felt there was an underlying problem that was triggering the attacks.

After bloods being taken at different times throughout the month it was found that I suffer from a hormone imbalance. By keeping a diary and having bloods done at bad times it showed that that was what was triggering my panic attacks.

You are lucky that you are 99.9% anxiety free but not everyone is as lucky as you.
There is nobody has tried harder than I have to beat this illness and I take full responsibility for myself.

Just because I suffer from panic attacks doesn't mean I don't have a good life. I have a lovely family and 2 beautiful boys who I have brought up to turn into lovely adults.
My life would be a lot better without panic attacks but this is the hand I have been dealt and I get on with life and live it to the best of my ability.

Carol

JAYQ

01-10-10, 19:02

European

01-10-10, 19:54

After bloods being taken at different times throughout the month it was found that I suffer from a hormone imbalance.

I have to admit this sounds somewhat unspecific, but I accept it of course when you say you are one of the few people - like those with thyroid problems - whose condition is actually triggered off by an endogenous cause.

I don't see, however, why this should make you all dismissive of CBT. It hasn't worked for you based on your diagnosis, granted, but that doesn't mean it will not work for the majority of others.

You are lucky that you are 99.9% anxiety free but not everyone is as lucky as you.

I've not been "lucky", but I've worked - and am still working! - bloody hard on it, believe you me!

ladybird64

01-10-10, 20:03

Erm..Caz did mention CBT doesn't work for everyone, I don't think she was being dismissive of it.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is different strokes for different folks.

For every person that insists that the only way to do it is their way, there will be another 2 who disagree.

So..it's probably best to keep an open mind on all things anxiety related :)

caz1625

01-10-10, 20:15

So nothing can be done for the hormone imbalance? What did the docs say to do? If treated are u better?

I was spent to specialists who tried different meds, HRT but unfortunately the side effects were worse than the panic attacks so after 5 years of trying different meds I came off them all and now manage med free.

I work hard to get through each day with a positive attitude but on the whole I manage it well. When I started going through the menopause a couple of years ago it all kicked off again but understanding why played a big part in me dealing with it. I have good days and bad days and I know the next few years will be hard unless I want to go down the road off trying all the meds again. But I am strong and I will get through it............my attitude has become ........I only suffer from panic attacks I don't have a life threatening condition. There are a lot of people a lot worse of than me.

CBT works wonders for a lot of people and gives them back their lives but it doesn't work for everyone.

Carol x

olderfella

01-10-10, 20:37

Nice one Carol:)youre a strong woman

caz1625

01-10-10, 21:00

I think strength has come with age :D

I used to let it all really get me down :weep:
There have been many times over the years when I have been ready to give up but I had 2 sons to look after and they always kept me going.

I'm too stubborn to let it beat me :D

Carol xx

JAYQ

01-10-10, 21:06

That is really inspriring carol i am seeing my psychologist again on monday to go over a plan for my well being, as now i am still not convinced 100% its anxiety, i am just def not myself and want to be so bad like before. I have been down about my skin for the last 2 years and i think it has led me to this point of anxiety idk thou.

Anyway what symptoms do you continually have that u still manage through them on a day to day basis? The only thing that seems to help me is exercise, this is the only time i feel good.

caz1625

01-10-10, 21:19

Hi JAYQ

I can't go out alone and haven't done for years but I go out if someone is with me. Don't do supermarkets but I sit and home with a coffee and do my shopping online:D

I used to just lie in bed all day till it was time for the kids to come home then I realised that life was worth more than that so I signed up with the Open University and I am just about to start my 4th course. Even although I can't go out I keep myself busy with things I can do from home. My youngest is disabled so a lot of my time is taken up looking after him.

I use a relaxation tape every morning when I waken and then again at night before I go to bed which I find helps.

The only meds I use is diazepam every 6 months to get me to the dentist. I didn't go for 8 years and got to the stage I was in so much pain I could hardly eat but I found a fantastic dentist and last year with his help and baby steps I spent over 6 months going every week until finally my teeth were all fixed. I now get a prescription for diazepam every 6 months and go and get any work I need done.

I struggle with panic every day but I manage it and I work very hard at not letting it get me down. There are a lot of things I can't do but there are lot of things I can and that's what I try and concentrate on.

Carol xx

European

02-10-10, 13:42

Dahlia>"Did you look at the link I posted?"

The article you refer to is from 2001 - almost 10 years ago. A lot has happened since.

Here's a link that sums up the latest findings and is a bit more up to date:

http://www.anxietycentre.com/downloads/Chemical-Imbalance-Theory-is-False.pdf

European

02-10-10, 14:18

ladybird64> "My opinion, for what it's worth, is different strokes for different folks."

Yes, I do agree with that - everybody is different, and many paths lead to Rome.

Having said that, I can't deny that as a newcomer who has read quite a few threads on this website over the past week or two, I am somewhat baffled - and shocked - that the general tenor and emphasis on here seems to be predominantly on medication, and merely describing and complaining about one's symptoms. There doesn't seem to be an emphasis at all in view of active solutions.

I can't help noticing that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is met predominantly with scepticism on here, and at times even with thinly veiled hostility, which is incredibly negative, defeatist and distorted. If people don't have faith in CBT, fine - but why would this make it necessary to discourage others in turn?

I feel particularly sorry for all those young people finding their way onto this website in despair, and far from being presented with something that might offer a realistic and good chance to help, or at least benefit them, such as CBT, they are being dragged into the general defeatist consensus of medication and endless descriptions of symptoms by people who are old enough to know better. I'm sorry, but I don't find this helpful at all, but in fact potentially counter-productive.

The general negativity regarding CBT is furthermore compounded by the fact that there is no sub-forum on this website that deals predominantly with CBT, where people could exchange their experiences, tell each other about their progress and encourage each other in terms of becoming and remaining active, which might create some positivity and hope for a change.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on a mission and appreciate that everybody is ultimately responsible for themselves and their own happiness, but the general pessimism and discouragement regarding CBT on here seems to me a massively missed opportunity, that's all.

Granny Primark

02-10-10, 17:34

I think so many of us are born with anxiety and that may possibly be inherited. However I think something triggers that anxiety into having panic attacks.
I know mine was.

European

02-10-10, 17:46

I think so many of us are born with anxiety and that may possibly be inherited.

In other words, there is nothing we can do about it and we will have to bear the burden of our fate and suffer for the rest of our lives....

Great!

If you want to turn yourself into a victim as easily as that, you're all entitled to do so. But count me out - I don't want anything to do with this defeatist nonsense whatsoever!

Dahlia

02-10-10, 18:00

In other words, there is nothing we can do about it and we will have to bear the burden of our fate and suffer for the rest of our lives....

Great!

If you want to turn yourself into a victim as easily as that, you're all entitled to do so. But count me out - I don't want anything to do with this defeatist nonsense whatsoever!

I think that's somewhat rude. I don't think Granny Primark meant that (correct me if I'm wrong, Granny!). Saying something is inherited is not tantamount to giving up. And I happen to know that Granny Primark works damn hard to beat her anxiety. There are lots of physical and mental inherited diseases, disorders etc - but people seek treatment for them, rather than say there is nothing they can do about them. CBT is one such treatment. I get migraines for example, they can be hereditary (mine are). I don't just say - oh well, poor me, I guess I'll just have them every week for the rest of my life. I take medication when needed, I avoid certain foods that can trigger them, I learn to relax more, I make sure I get enough sleep.

Saying something is genetic and saying that CBT can help the condition are not mutually exclusive. They can co-exist - e.g. 'I believe it's genetic, but I'm going to do all I can to alleviate it'. There are very very few people on this site who have given up, accepted their fate, decided to just feel sorry for themselves.

European

02-10-10, 18:07

I guess part of the function of these forums is empathy - people like to know they are not alone, want to vent feelings/frustrations etc. Obviously suggesting CBT as a solution is good, but sometimes people just want to feel heard and understood - esp. when no one around them understands, or in some cases vilify them.

I appreciate what you said in your post - in particular all about empathy and people being alone with their anxiety problems is something I understand, as I have been standing in exactly the same shoes for more than a decade.

However, I think it's a very fine line - and very hit and miss - for support to be just that: supportive!
We might all feel it's kind to empathise, but there comes a point when it becomes counter-productive.
We might think of ourselves and others as "kind", and yet the effects are not necessarily constuctive at all. For example, we might give a heroin user we care about some money (which will only be used for the next shot, which might be the final overdose). Or we might be giving a bottle of booze to a dear friend who happens to be an alcoholic, which might seem kind, but the only effect this will have is to enable him drinking, and thus we are only supporting him in being self-destructive.
These are extreme examples, granted, but it's a very similar effect empathy and kindness can have on people suffering from mood disorders. We might think we are being supportive, and yet the main thing we are doing is enable someone to nurture their anxiety and cement it for decades to come.

I think it's important to bear in mind that kindness and empathy, however well it is meant, can easily turn into the opposite. In other words: Meaning well is not necessarily doing well.

caz1625

02-10-10, 19:33

JaneC

02-10-10, 23:56

I find it quite strange that two people should turn up on the forum at virtually the same time saying virtually the same thing, including claiming that NMP is pro-meds and anti everything else, then that patently isn't true - have you read the information section, left, European? There is also a "Therapy" board on the forum that would seem to cover CBT fairly nicely.

Like the other member I'm speaking about, you seem to do a nice line in presenting opinions as facts. You don't know for a fact that antidepressants don't work. You argue that it has never been proved that depression and other mental health problems are caused by a chemical problem in the brain - neither has it been proved that they haven't, not by Irving Kirsh or anybody else.

European

03-10-10, 00:03

caz1625> "I'm sorry but I find this very offensive!"

And I am finding this whole defeatist attitude of trying to reduce mood disorders to merely physical causes very offensive! It is utterly self-defeating, de-motivating and avoidant, apart from the fact that it is a judgement merely formed on a whim and there is no evidence for it whatsoever!

Furthermore, this is not all about you, Carol, as I don't know you and haven't therefore a clue as to how you're dealing with your Anxiety Disorder or not. And in whatever I said on this thread, my intention was NOT to personally attack you! So, could we possibly broaden this out a little bit on to more general terms, rather than reducing everything to the personal all the time? Please?

Dahlia> "Saying something is genetic and saying that CBT can help the condition are not mutually exclusive. They can co-exist - e.g. 'I believe it's genetic, but I'm going to do all I can to alleviate it'."

I think what you are describing here is a contradiction. Logically, why would anybody feel the need to brave opening themselves up and put in some consistent and taxing work with the aim of getting on top of their mood disorder, when they deep down believe this to be futile anyway, because their condition is being caused on a physical level (of which the medication largely takes care of)?
It just doesn't make any sense, and I don't believe anybody would make more than a half hearted effort at best, whilst focussing on the physical, i.e. medication and such, and then turn round and claim: "Cognitive Behavioural Therapy isn't working for me!" Of course it's not working, for obvious reasons - how could it possibly work with such a muddled outlook!

I mean, come on, this isn't exactly rocket science, and frankly I find it hard to believe that we're having this discussion in the first place!

European

03-10-10, 00:31

JaneC> "I find it quite strange that two people should turn up on the forum at virtually the same time saying virtually the same thing."

I don't know who else you are talking about, because so far I'm pretty much standing here on my own.

JaneC> "There is also a "Therapy" board on the forum that would seem to cover CBT fairly nicely."

How come then it obviously doesn't find its way into the forum?

JaneC> "you seem to do a nice line in presenting opinions as facts."

This is a rather glib remark - but be that as it may, all the information is out there, so feel free to do some research. I'm pretty sure you will find that it overwhelmingly points in the direction of 'nurture', and we are by far not being determined by 'nature' as some people on here seem to insist on.

Scientific research aside, lets just look at the whole thing from an attitudinal perspective: Which attitude is more constructive?

In a nutshell:

The 'nature' point of view merely determines everything to the physical, which means no choice and no empowerment, and at the same time no need to take personal responsibility, because there is not much one can do other than take pills.

The 'nurture' point of view means there is leeway, which opens up choice, which in turn allows people to confront and tackle their problems, as opposed to being held at ransom by their own negativity. It is possible via taking personal responsibility to deal with the problems, rather than being dealt a fate and stuck with it. This taking responsibility might be frightening in itself and involve courage and work, but it is ultimately empowering and liberating.

Merely looked at both 'nature' or 'nurture' from a philosophical point of view as a worthwhile strategy to get through, and actually deal with, life, I have a pretty clear guess which one would be more constructive and healthy, and which one I would choose.

ladybird64

03-10-10, 12:21

It's Sunday and I really don't want to get engaged in a battle of wills with anybody but some of these posts European..I mean, why do it?

I'm glad you are better and I mean that honestly and truthfully. I read back to your opening post and see that you yourself had problems for more than fifteen years before you discovered the one that worked for you.

What did you do during this fifteen years? Did you ever resort to the medication route or other forums..were you constantly out there fighting what ailed you? Just how did you get along?

You didn't have your cure then so did that make you a defeatist or just someone who hadn't found the most suitable path?

You say let's not make things personal..well when you write on a forum then of course it becomes personal..if somebody accused me of turning myself into a victim and quoted what I said as "defeatist nonsense" I would be extremely offended and rightly so.

I really don't get what the problem is with people that complain about the "defeatist" posts they find here..why are you here and if you don't like what you see, then why stay? Genuine question..I really don't understand :shrug:

I am better by the way. I had anxiety issues and Panics for over 20 years. I have never had CBT. Which category does this put me under?

As far as I'm concerned the statistics and scientific research can go to blazes. I am well now without any of that malarky, yes, I take medication but have only taken it for 6 months and intend to stop it soon.

If you feel so strongly that not enough "publicity" is given to CBT here, you could always raise the matter directly with the admin of the forum and hear what their opinions are.

Can I ask if you are involved in any campaigns to make CBT more readily available for those who need it? It is well known that there are long waiting lists for this therapy and some GP's are not willing to refer on to mental health..have you raised the issue at grass roots level?

Make it more available and then more may be able to try it but please don't come here and have a go at a Nationally repected forum and it's users..in the nicest possible way, put your money where your mouth is. :)

suzy-sue

03-10-10, 12:57

In a nutshell:

The 'nature' point of view merely determines everything to the physical, which means no choice and no empowerment, and at the same time no need to take personal responsibility, because there is not much one can do other than take pills.

The 'nurture' point of view means there is leeway, which opens up choice, which in turn allows people to confront and tackle their problems, as opposed to being held at ransom by their own negativity. It is possible via taking personal responsibility to deal with the problems, rather than being dealt a fate and stuck with it. This taking responsibility might be frightening in itself and involve courage and work, but it is ultimately empowering and liberating.

Merely looked at both 'nature' or 'nurture' from a philosophical point of view as a worthwhile strategy to get through, and actually deal with, life, I have a pretty clear guess which one would be more constructive and healthy, and which one I would choose.[/QUOTE]

No one on here says that Pills are the Cure .Its always encouraged to seek therapy if you can get it .And to make changes to lifestle etc and to change negative thought patterns into posistive ones .Having a go at people who take medication is neither helpful or necessary .Medication does assist a lot of people ,it enables them to feel able to takle their problems head on ,as without they are unable to do it .Not everyone has the knowledge and strength to do it the hard way .You just seem to be another person who thinks ,because certain thing didnt help you ,they wont help others .Neither do you seem to care who you offend ,in the process of voicing your antagonistic remarks ,There is a forum for Therapy ,and some members have posted about CBT on there btw .Cbt doesnt work for everyone and its not the only therapy that helps either .Most people have to wait for months to get it ,unless they can afford to pay private .Even after the lengthy wait its not necessarily going to work and it depends a lot of the time how good the therapists is as well .Like the previous poster says maybe you could do something to change this if you are as concerned as you say you are .Insead of coming on here refering to people as victims .How you can say that ,then say ,you were not being personal ,beggars belief .. I am pleased you have managed to get well however ,its always good to hear of sucesses .Sue

European

03-10-10, 17:04

ladybird64> "I read back to your opening post and see that you yourself had problems for more than fifteen years before you discovered the one that worked for you.

What did you do during this fifteen years? Did you ever resort to the medication route or other forums..were you constantly out there fighting what ailed you? Just how did you get along?"

I started off going to see my GP, who, with a full waiting room and dozens of patients to deal with, allowed me two sentences and then routinely wrote a prescription for an anti-depressant, and sent me on my way....
And so I was bumbling along for the next ten years, on or off medication, which, with the benefit of hindsight, didn't do anything but firmly root the anxiety problem whilst making me ever more pessimistic, depressed and restricted.
If I had had the chance to encounter CBT right from the start, I think I would have fared considerably better, or at least would have had the chance to deal with the problem, and come to some degree of an understanding, rather than just be treading water whilst going up the walls believing I was going mad.

And no, I realise that things are not merely black and white, and that there is room for medication, in order to get a breather or take the edge of things whilst trying to get back on one's feet. I've got no problem with this whatsoever.
What makes me incredibly angry is when people are selling medication as a long term solution. THAT'S what I'm having a massive problem with, because it is not a long term solution, and never will be!

ladybird64> "I really don't get what the problem is with people that complain about the "defeatist" posts they find here..why are you here and if you don't like what you see, then why stay? Genuine question..I really don't understand"

suzy-sue> "Insead of coming on here refering to people as victims .How you can say that ,then say ,you were not being personal ,beggars belief "

First of all, my criticism in terms of being defeatist and casting oneself as a victim is not referring to anybody on a personal level (how could it? After all, I don't know anybody on a personal level on this thread), but it is criticising an attitude. And a very self-defeating attitude as such. There is a difference!

As I said before, I'm not on a mission (and I have no financial or other stakes in CBT, if that's what you were alluding to), but based on what I read here on these forums, I can't help the impression that there is a lot of wilful ignorance going on in terms of actually tackling and dealing with issues, and an almost total illiteracy in terms of CBT, which is shocking!

For a website that is supposed to help people, I have to admit I find this astounding! It seems totally counter productive to me to encourage people to go on about all the short cuts in the world, which, by their very nature overwhelmingly lead to dead ends, whilst the majority of people on here seem to be making themselves almost 'comfortable' with their mood disorder without as much as a hint of a more pragmatical, active and positive approach that would be to some extent solution orientated and actually helpful.

Everybody needs to complain and vent at times, it's something that makes us human - but one doesn't have to be a great prophet to predict that distorting an attitude and culture of categorical complaining into some kind of make belief dealing with the issues is not going to help anybody, really. Overcoming your problem takes a little bit more courage and effort than that.

nomorepanic

03-10-10, 17:37

For a website that is supposed to help people, I have to admit I find this astounding! It seems totally counter productive to me to encourage people to go on about all the short cuts in the world, which, by their very nature overwhelmingly lead to dead ends, whilst the majority of people on here seem to be making themselves almost 'comfortable' with their mood disorder without as much as a hint of a more pragmatical, active and positive approach that would be to some extent solution orientated and actually helpful.

To make a comment like this you would have to have read an awful lots of posts on here which I doubt you have had time to. You are also making a sweeping statement that all members on here encourage others to take the medication and deal with the side-effects and get on with it. This is not the case.

If you read my posts/replies you will see that I am not a lover of medication and will constantly suggest CBT as a way forward for people. I can only suggest though and unfortunately I can do no more.

The other problem of course is the waiting list - I was put forward for it back in June as I was experiencing anxiety symptoms again and I am still waiting to hear back so by the time it comes round I won't need it again. I needed it back then and not now.

I am a great believer in CBT having found that it has helped me immensely in the past. I always push therapy before medication but I came to realise that the NHS cannot cope with the demands for CBT so in the meantime the doctors push medication on people.

Apart from CBT there is loads of self-help that people can do too and some of that self-help comes from forums like this one.

joannap

03-10-10, 18:23

i feel that anxiety/depression have a wide range of causes - that probably no one case has a single cause. members of my family have suffered too inlcuding my mother and aunt - however - they lost their mum (my grandma) as a child and their teenage years were like something out of one of these shocking autobiographies you read and so you could say that theirs was due to events that happened. i may have then been influenced by my mums anxiety but then my brother has never suffered any form of anxiety disorder so obviously there has to be susceptibility in me. my parents then divorced when i was a child and i was very much affected emotionally - i can see how this has impacted on me making a lot of wrong decisions in life due to insecurity etc which have then led to stress thus everything having a knock on effect.

i think even your birth can play a part - i was premature - everything that could go wrong did go wrong and was lucky to survive 35 years ago and so who knows if that has affected me to some degree too? i also think that some of us are born with especially sensitive nervous systems and then there are another load of conditions such as overactive thyroid (i have had this too lol!) that can mimick anxiety disorders.

i feel the most important thing however is how you deal with it in the here and now. i am a big believer in cbt but believe it is something you have to keep up virtually every minute FOR LIFE. I have made big strides with altering the way i think - it literally can improve you within days but it is very hard to keep up and very easy to slip back and before you know it you are thinking negatively again and have been doing for weeks before you realise! i think that this is why a lot of people feel cbt doesn't work for them - it is very easy to think you are changing your thought patterns when in fact - you aren't or only changing one or two thoughts out of every 200 lol! i have been guilty of dismissing cbt in the past and saying - oh it didn;t work for me but me personally - i look back and realise i went through the motions and did not make the big enough commitment needed to actually doing it.

So yes - i do belive that changing thought patterns is the biggest way to cope with anxiety - even anxiety that has a biological cause etc because thoughts lead to feelings and so do create our internal environment and it has been the most effective weapon for me but the hardest thing i have ever done and am still doing. Having said that - my journey has included lots of medication at points and other things too - everyone is individual and unique and everyone finds the right path to recovery at the right time and place for them.

suzy-sue

03-10-10, 18:31

You come across as very critical of this website EUROPEAN .I suggest if you spend longer reading the posts ,you will get a better idea of how helpful it is .If you are so shocked by the so called attitude here ,why dont you start your own website ? . You are not the only one here that believes what you say about medication .CBT is not the be all either .Whether you came here to help or not ,I do think you need to stop lecturing people and being so judgemental .Work on your communication skills a bit more .Its not what you say in life that counts so much ,its how you say it.Rubbing people up wont make them listen to you . Sue

Jaco45er

03-10-10, 19:08

I see you are making friends there European ;)

Please do not criticise NMP. Understand that it has helped countless sufferers and the owner and her partner work VERY hard without reward to create a community for anxiety sufferers.

That said, I agree with a lot of what you say. I too, believe that medication is not the answer (unless it is necessary for certain conditions like bi-polar).

But what you need to understand is, you are blaming sufferers for using meds, when in actual fact they are given meds by GP's because there is a lack of CBT practitioners (and other therapies) on the NHS.

This is the reason why it may appear that medication seems more popular here.

And as you will know, CBT is hard work, and you need to be in the right frame of mind to be able to get the full benefit of CBT. So there is an argument there for meds, to bring the sufferer to a stage where he/she would start to benefit from CBT.

Just be a little more respectful when giving your point of view.

Regards,

Jaco

European

03-10-10, 20:08

Jaco45er> "I see you are making friends there European"

Tell me about it! :winks: In fairness to me, though, you've got to admit that some people are clearly trying to shoot the messenger.

nomorepanic> "To make a comment like this you would have to have read an awful lots of posts on here which I doubt you have had time to. You are also making a sweeping statement that all members on here encourage others to take the medication and deal with the side-effects and get on with it."

I'm sorry, Nicola, but this is how it presented itself to me. I would be lying if I said otherwise. And I've read quite a few threads over the last 10 days or so, believe me.

There is a lot of negativity regarding CBT on here, which I think might be very off-putting and discouraging for any newcomer, or anybody who has never encountered CBT yet, particularly if younger, and is therefore very likely to put it on the bottom of their list of priorities and not give themselves the opportunity to benefit from it in the first place. Which I think would be a shame!

Apart from that, I respect and appreciate what you are trying to do here, and if I appear overcritical, this is not my intention and I do apologise about this!

It's just that I can't help the feeling that there must be ways of making it easier for people to encounter and engage with CBT, if only to actually look at it and get an decent impression, before dismissing it. Would it not be a good idea in this respect to set up a sub-forum designated solely for CBT, where those people who are open to it, and those who are interested, could congregate and exchange their experiences and provide some support and inspiration? As opposed to having wade through a whole lot of mud of negativity before they would actually feel confident enough and dare to mention CBT, and their experiences with it. Because I think on any forum like this one there are certain group dynamics at work....
Do I make sense?

nomorepanic> "The other problem of course is the waiting list "

Yes, I appreciate this. It's not easy and sometimes quite a long and drawn out affair to actually get to see a therapist.

But:

nomorepanic> "Apart from CBT there is loads of self-help that people can do too and some of that self-help comes from forums like this one."

Absolutely! I never saw a therapist as regards CBT, but managed to have a rather unexpected breakthrough via 'bibliotherapy', i.e. on the basis of self help books, in particular those by Dr. David Burns, one of the developers of CBT. I sat down and read the stuff, did the tests, did the exercises and used the techniques (and there are plenty of them, which means their should be something for everybody), and despite my scepticism at the time, I realised that I felt remarkably better within the space of 3 weeks already. This was about two and a half years ago, and my life has been completely transformed for the better and in a way that I would have never thought possible in my darkest days!

I also think a sub-forum with a positive atmosphere and open and motivated people could make a lot of difference as well and benefit a lot of people in quite a substantial way. It is, however, not going to happen, when you won't get as far as actually talking about CBT and your experiences in the first place on account of all those who are basically having none of it, and because they didn't progress, so should nobody else. Everybody is of course entitled to their opinion, but for obvious reasons I think there is a problem with the way things are going at the moment, in that it holds those who want to change back from actually changing.

I know I'm only a newbie and that it is somewhat churlish to make suggestions for this website already, but to be honest, I think if I was here for a long time, I probably wouldn't see the necessity.

So, how about it? :)

Jaco45er

03-10-10, 20:29

European, You need to be mindful of the fact that this is an open forum. And people will post about thier concerns and experiences, and if these are "GP" driven, then it will be about meds they have been subscribed.

I have the David Burn's book, although I feel Claire Weekes was more beneficial to me. And that's the key European, it's what is more beneficial for the individual that counts.

Not everyone will benefit from CBT, self help books, exercise or a good diet, so it really is horses for courses.May I suggest a change ot tact, instead of slating people for not embracing CBT, why not promote it in a more positive manner?

Jaco

ladybird64

03-10-10, 20:47

Last post on the subject because as I mentioned before, I haven't had CBT.

I don't know who the messenger shooters are but maybe if the messenger made his points in a less critical and condescending manner, then people would not get so upset by his remarks!

Thank you for replying to my post and explaining what you did in the years before you found CBT, can you now see the point that I was trying to make?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, we can look back at what we did wrong but do it with kind thought and realise that many now are in the position that we once were.

In regards to your suggestion of a sub-forum, well, that is why I suggested you ask admin! There are many who have tried it and have not been successful but there are also plenty who have used it and advocate it for others..just look in the Natural Therapies section on thread re CBT..you will find plenty.

I truthfully don't know who the these folks are that are having none of it..honestly! Maybe I have not read the threads.

I'm also not too sure about group dynamics..maybe you are right but I try to remain impartial and open minded..when I see what I percieve to be an attack where harsh words are used I come out on the defensive.

It is through this forum and forum users, not any books or therapies that I now accept that whether I have anxiety or not, it matters not a jot.

That is what I want for everyone else so I try and make suggestions if they ask for them, just be there for them.

I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong in putting forward positive suggestions and information about CBT so we shall see what happens now. :winks:

KK77

03-10-10, 21:21

Did I hear shooting? Hmmm.

If we are all "individuals" and all different etc then why do people make generalisations? The fact is that CBT or counselling aren't pushed like pharmaceutical drugs because these types of therapies cost time, effort and money. Drugs however create wealth for Big Pharma. CBT and other talking therapies require a lot of effort from the patient too. I've yet to come across a counsellor or therapist with a wand. Moreover, some therapists need therapy themselves unfortunately.

I've yet to read psych meds and the ilk being advocated as a "cure" on this site. If only it were that simple. Yet many doctors - brainwashed by Big Pharma - believe that they are. I do not. I've always said that meds of this kind serve no more than a crutch. A stepping stone, if like me you suffer with recurrent depression, to pursue other supplementary therapies with the intention of finding that "cure".

A lot of people on this forum do wallow in self-pity and we do try to give each other a kick up the bum, but that doesn't always work.

Perhaps we could speak about "talking therapies" as monotherapy more but that's sometimes difficult when many members come on this site after already being prescribed citalopram 20mg (to be taken in the morning).

I always say there is room for improvement and as long as we don't antagonise the hell out of each other that's always possible.

bottleblond

03-10-10, 21:33

from a personal point of view, i am sick to the back teeth of people dissing medication.

I am guilty of not reading this whole thread but i have picked up a few pointers on what i have read. Surely mediaction can be used in conjunction with other thrapies ie CBT.

I have been on medication for the best part of my life. Sure i have had my stages without it but my quality of life has been minus zero during these periods. I'm not just talking about days or weeks without medication but two years. After many many many gp visits, i was told that some people just function better on meds that without them and that is nothing to be ashamed of. My view..if i feel better taking medication then i will damn well take it. Why suffer when you don't have to?.

Everyone is entitled to go down whatever route they choose and it's not for any of us to pick and choose of belittle their choice.

Lisa