View Full Version : just started cbt
Ive seen someone for cbt for the 1st time today. She asked questions & I told her about my anxiety, panic attacks, night terrors ( every night for the past 4-5 months I wake up in fear), and claustrophobia, my fears of aeroplanes, trains, lifts, buses, anything that means I cant escape in an instant, electric doors etc.
She seemed to understand what I was saying, and drew up the cycle of fear thing. She said we need to break the cycle and I need to stop my safety thoughts eg I can go to the theatre if my seat is at the back and at the end by the door, I can go into a room if the window is open & large enough for me to get through if necessary. I wasnt expecting this drop the safety thing, but maybe she has a point in me stopping the thoughts altogether.
Then we did the list of frightening things in order,& I have to try & desensitise myself to the things at the bottom of the list first ie shops with electric doors. She said in the 2 weeks before I see her next I need to go into a shop with electric doors and stay in there for 1.5 hours at a time as often as possible in the 2 weeks. I need to stay there so the panic will rise then fall and each time it rises it will be less until soon the panic will not come at all.
Wow how simple it sounds I mean I could have told anyone that, I think we all know how it works in theory. But come on! I have not been given any coping techniques ie breathing, distraction. Just basically go & face your fears until the fear goes away. If it were that simple these forums wouldnt exist would they. And lets face it I am going to get thrown out of the shop for loitering, its just not practically possible. Is this really how it works, I mean the next stage for me would be buses, then trains & lifts and there is just no way I will get in those.
I feel like - I have a problem I am terrified of going on a train, I have had this for 8 years. Ok just go on one lots of times and stay on one for 1.5 hours and you will be free from claustrophobia. :doh:
Hi jayye. I certainly think your therapist is asking a bit much of you. I thought the whole point was getting support while while you face your fears, not just be sent out there to get on with it. As for repeatedly hanging about shops for about and hour and a half at a time? I think that's nuts. Is there anyway you could see someone different? It's a real shame because CBT can be really helpful x
Thanks for your reply. Im not sure about seeing someone else. I went to see a gp earlier this year and I got a letter saying come for an assessment. Well that was the other day when I got told all this so I assume this is my treatment. I guess Id have to ask a gp what to do about changing. The gp I saw before was a stand-in and is not at the surgery now.
The lady told me I would have 6 appointments but if I felt better after 2 I could cancel the rest. Haha as if! 8+ years of fear and avoidance all cured in 2 hours.
But still, I have to go back as I dont know of any alternative, and mine & my families lives have suffered enough. I now avoid planes, trains, taxis, buses, lifts, hospitals (lifts & x-ray rooms have locked doors) anywhere with locked doors, locked windows, any situation where I cannot escape immediately & unnoticed, fairground rides where I cannot get out of the seat (this limits my kids Im not bothered about missing out for myself), hotels where I cannot escape through the window, anyones car where I cannot open the window or door immediately, shops with closed electric doors, banks with closing doors, & so many more places as its too hard work to keep checking the exits. This is slowly turning me into a recluse. I could probable handle this but its the lives of my children that Im concerned about and how much they will miss out on.
I dont hold out much hope though about this treatment so far.
I have just started CBT for pregnancy related health anxiety. I have had 2 sessions, and the therapist hasn't done anymore than ask me to think about some issues/do some breathing exercises. She says we are still building a picture of my anxiety.
I know it is difficult to see someone else, but you can ask them to slow things down. Go for your next appointment and be really honest about how you are feeling. They should work at a pace which is right for you. If you are feeling pressured, your anxiety is just going to get worse.
Genie
Hi Jayye,
I'm sorry you are having a bad experience of cbt.
When I was doing it my therapist told me to break it down into small managable steps. If you are scared to go on trains could you go to a train station and just be around trains for a while. Then the next day go on a train for one stop, then the next time two stops and so on.
Make it as easy as you can for yourself at first.
In cbt they do like you to stay in the feared situation for a long time but you can build up to it in gradual steps, so by the time you stay on a train for over an hour it won't feel too scary or overwhelming.
Anna
CBT is simple in concept but much harder to practice. The good news is if you dedicate yourself to doing the exercises like the TEA forms it does work wonders. I am living roof and sing its praises now. The bottom line is you get out of CBT what you put into it. You learn to rely on yourself instead of your therapist and that is very empowering. You may want to read the CBT book "Been there, Done that? DO THIS!" www.tao3.com by Sam Obitz. It was written by a man who fought with his anxiety for and got better using CBT. It's a great simple book. Good luck and CBT works if you work it:yesyes:
Hi I just rang my local mental health authority after receiving their letter re my GP referal letter. They said I am a level 2 referal ? and am down for CBT.
However there is a 6 week waiting list but said I could be referred to the AXA-ICAS programme if I preferred as that was government funded and would be quicker.
I asked what the difference was and he couldn't tell me... I asked if the programme was as good and the same... he didn't know. Infact he said they really didn't know a lot about it but THEY HAD TO OFFER it to patients anyway as it was the rule. I got the impression he was trying to sway me away from it.
So I agreed to stay on their waiting list but now I'm wondering if I should have just gone for the AXA-ICAS one instead as I'd be seen quicker.
Has anyone been on the AXA one and what's it like ?
Wow how simple it sounds I mean I could have told anyone that, I think we all know how it works in theory. But come on! I have not been given any coping techniques ie breathing, distraction. Just basically go & face your fears until the fear goes away. If it were that simple these forums wouldnt exist would they. And lets face it I am going to get thrown out of the shop for loitering, its just not practically possible. Is this really how it works, I mean the next stage for me would be buses, then trains & lifts and there is just no way I will get in those.
Just those two phrases tell the therapist that YOU do know how to cope with your fears.
I have seen psychiatriststs , therapist etc and they all tell me the same "" you know the coping strategies, What do you expect me to do??""
I told them alll I expect them to help me thro my fears not add to them.
CBT is a bit like physio you do the work:ohmy:
BUT i argue you have to be shown HOW!!!!!
GO into the shop and then write down how you felt and show that to yoru therapist - stick with it for a bit it might get better
Best wishes
June
:hugs:
the only reason people use 'coping techniques' is because they still fear something.
So i would suggest you look and learn more about what you are fearing, if after reading and learning about your fear you find that it cant harm you, then drop all the distraction/coping/breathing stuff, cos then they would serve no purpose.
thetube82
ladybird64
26-10-10, 21:39
Show me one person who has overcome and stayed in total dismissal of whatever they feared previously within the space of a few weeks worth of sessions and I'll eat my hat.
If I had one. :winks:
It isn;t that simple and it doesn't happen that quickly. We all have our own processes to go through until we can start to deal with the fear, there is so much pressure on people to "do this, do that" and if you do it you won't look back.
Considering the number of CBT sessions people get on the NHS it doesn't give much time to get to grips with things!
Distraction, coping and breathing DO serve a purpose..if they help a person to come to terms with and then gradually eliminate their fears then that is surely not a problem.
There should be no time limit on getting better and gaining confidence enough to start to ignore anxiety and panic.
If a person feels better with a bottle of water in their hand then so be it.
Breathing correctly is widely used to deal with many problems including anxiety..it is a basic function that we forget how to use properly when we panic.
It's absolutely essential that we breathe properly..it's not a distraction at all! Really can't understand why you have included that :shrug:
I think I'm missing something here and sorry to butt in.... but are people saying that CBT is a waste of time or good?
I'm on a waiting list for it now and I'm not sure I want to do it now after reading some of the comments. I dont actually have a fear of going places or anything like that although I do tend to worry a lot unnecessarily about daft and trivial things. I call it the 'what if.. scenario'
Does CBT cover that too or just phobila about doing things or going places etc etc ?
Hi Dizz,
Yes CBT will help you with your 'what ifs' as your therapist will show you how to challenge your negative thoughts.
Please don't let other peoples experiences put you off, try it for yourself it could really help you.
Good luck.
Anna
i guess we will have to agree to disagree Ladybird!
the things i disagree with are...........
'Considering the number of CBT sessions people get on the NHS it doesn't give much time to get to grips with things!'
Lets guess that someone gets 8 hour-long sessions of CBT over 8 weeks, that gives them 1336 worth of in-between session hours to practise, experiment, learn, etc., remember that probably the most important thing in CBT is the work the client does between sessions.
'Distraction, coping and breathing DO serve a purpose..'
They probably do serve a purpose to the person, but unfortunately they keep the person believing that they need to 'control' themselves, therefore the purpose might have a count-affect.
'There should be no time limit on getting better and gaining confidence enough to start to ignore anxiety and panic.'
Kind of agree with you there, except the word 'ignore', i think people need to accept (rather than 'ignore') that anxiey is part of there life, as it is in everyones life.
'If a person feels better with a bottle of water in their hand then so be it.'
Agree, i suppose, as long as they realise that nothing serious would happen if they didnt have a bottle of water in there hand, and that by having the bottle they are fueling the fear a bit more.
'It's absolutely essential that we breathe properly..'
Not too sure by the term 'properly', by using this it may imply that something bad or dangerous might happen if we dont breath 'properly', the only way i know how to breath is by breathing in then out??!! As i have done all my life, like all of us have done, sometimes its fast breathing, sometimes its slow, it doesnt really matter as long as we are breathing!, if you mean we need to regulate how we breath during a panic attack i would disagree, because the body will regulate it itself after a short period.
thetube82
Well I have my 2nd session this week. I dont think I feel any different since my last one. Ive had some better moments & a bad moment too. The bad moment was at the dentists I was in an unfamiliar room & noticed what I thought was a lock on the door, so I worked myself up & eventually had to ask if the door was locked & had to tell the dentist & assistant my problem. They reassured me the door was not locked & I got through it although it was uncomfortable at best. Now my therapist told me not to tell people my fears as that was another of my coping techniques. Like someone mentioned on here that having coping techniques means that you still have something to fear, yes I understand that however if I was able to do certain things that I otherwise could not do, or get through situations that I may otherwise need to escape from by using a method of coping, then that would suit me. As I am unable to just figure out why I am afraid of being trapped, the best I can hope for at the moment is to just learn a way to cope with my fears.
And as my therapist wants me to drop the coping methods I guess I'll have to try and find some online or elsewhere because I just cant see any other way round it.
Oh & the better moments I had were today, I was in a busy building with 1 door which was at the opposite end of the building to me. I imagined that I was with a friend who had my problem & thought what I would say to them to calm them down. This seemed to work although it wasnt one of the worst scenarios for me in that building really.
Fingers crossed for a better 2nd session.
ladybird64
27-10-10, 12:07
i guess we will have to agree to disagree Ladybird!
the things i disagree with are...........
'Considering the number of CBT sessions people get on the NHS it doesn't give much time to get to grips with things!'
Lets guess that someone gets 8 hour-long sessions of CBT over 8 weeks, that gives them 1336 worth of in-between session hours to practise, experiment, learn, etc., remember that probably the most important thing in CBT is the work the client does between sessions.
'Distraction, coping and breathing DO serve a purpose..'
They probably do serve a purpose to the person, but unfortunately they keep the person believing that they need to 'control' themselves, therefore the purpose might have a count-affect.
'There should be no time limit on getting better and gaining confidence enough to start to ignore anxiety and panic.'
Kind of agree with you there, except the word 'ignore', i think people need to accept (rather than 'ignore') that anxiey is part of there life, as it is in everyones life.
'If a person feels better with a bottle of water in their hand then so be it.'
Agree, i suppose, as long as they realise that nothing serious would happen if they didnt have a bottle of water in there hand, and that by having the bottle they are fueling the fear a bit more.
'It's absolutely essential that we breathe properly..'
Not too sure by the term 'properly', by using this it may imply that something bad or dangerous might happen if we dont breath 'properly', the only way i know how to breath is by breathing in then out??!! As i have done all my life, like all of us have done, sometimes its fast breathing, sometimes its slow, it doesnt really matter as long as we are breathing!, if you mean we need to regulate how we breath during a panic attack i would disagree, because the body will regulate it itself after a short period.
thetube82
I sat and typed a nice reply to your post last night, quite a long one and then changed pages without hitting the submit button. :doh:
Decided to go and sulk. :D
It's good to agree to differ sometimes and rather than write out another long reply, the gist is that I agree with most things you have written (except the breathing :winks:). I guess it's the "one size fits all" approach that I find difficult to understand with things like having a bit of help with coping mechanisms to start with..is it such a bad thing in the short term?
On my little journey I have come to self regulate what i do in scary situations (and yes, I still have a few), I now don't rely on distractions to get me through if I'm feeling anxious.
I know you have explained about how many hours people have to help themselves but it seems so harsh to expect them to change behaviour so quickly..still think more time with the therapist by the side would be helpful!!
For those of you currently receiveing CBT like Jayye above (good luck by the way Jayye, sounds like you are doing better than you think) would it be possible for you to leave feedback here?
I am interested even though I have never had CBT, we hear lots of feedback from people on meds and it might be useful if we got the same kind of feedback for CBT.
'still think more time with the therapist by the side would be helpful!!'
BEEP! BEEP! i smell another safety bahaviour alert!! BEEP! BEEP! :winks:
oh lets just forget this!!.....................wishing all success, CBT or not
Fight the fear gang, stay cool
thetube82
'still think more time with the therapist by the side would be helpful!!'
BEEP! BEEP! i smell another safety bahaviour alert!! BEEP! BEEP! :winks:
oh lets just forget this!!.....................wishing all success, CBT or not
Fight the fear gang, stay cool
thetube82
CBT has been a Godsend for me. I was going to reply to a bunch of notes I read here today but the tube82 has already done an excellent job and I would just be repeating most of what's been said.
So I'll just say if you are willing to put in the effort, you will likely get a lot of relief from using Cbt and getting rid of your safety signals and distraction coping methods:yesyes:
"CBT has been a Godsend for me.">cece
Yes, for me as well. I've tried everything anyone could possibly try over the course of over a decade, and CBT was the only thing that turned my life around for the better. It has been a Godsend indeed!
What some people might not be prepared for is the fact that CBT requires some personal input. It also requires to face up to one's fears, as opposed to sitting them out. It's not necessarily the amount of sessions one has, but predominantly the homework one does in between sessions, which teaches one how to deal with one's problems, which in turn has an incredibly liberating and empowering effect.
Anxiety is indeed a cycle, in that it provokes avoidance behaviour, which then feeds the anxiety in turn. In other words, the more you avoid certain situations, the more your brain stores this avoidance as a failure and a 'real' reason to be anxious, which will then increase the anxiety the next time round you're trying to deal with the situation in question.
Anxiety and avoidance go hand in hand, and it is impossible to overcome anxiety and panic without stopping one's avoidance behaviour and face up to one's fears. CBT and its techniques are incredibly helpful and empowering in this respect.
"I dont hold out much hope though about this treatment so far.">jayye
I think what is vitally important in the context of CBT is a certain openness towards it in the first place! What's the point of starting anything, if you are sure about its outcome before you even started? How is any treatment on earth going to have an impact, or possibly even work, if one is all negative about it and has one's shutters down?
I also find it very sad to repeatedly see that those who have their shutters firmly down in terms of CBT are actively spreading their negativity and discouraging others from opening themselves up and attempting a more positive and constructive attitude as regards facing their fears. It's not surprising that many therapists discourage their client's to visit and take part in this forum, as there is a lot of ignorance and negativity around, particularly in view of CBT. Which isn't helpful at all!
Having said that, only because there are some negative and ignorant people around doesn't mean that one has to become negative and ignorant as well. And neither does it mean that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy doesn't work on the basis that it hasn't worked on some others who were probably never open to it in the first place.
No matter what you do, you will only give yourself a chance by keeping your mind open. You will only get out of it what you put in. And this doesn't depend on anybody else, but you!
I agree with three-quarters of what you say European but then we get to this:
I also find it very sad to repeatedly see that those who have their shutters firmly down in terms of CBT are actively spreading their negativity and discouraging others from opening themselves up and attempting a more positive and constructive attitude as regards facing their fears. It's not surprising that many therapists discourage their client's to visit and take part in this forum, as there is a lot of ignorance and negativity around, particularly in view of CBT. Which isn't helpful at all!
Once again, that's very unfair - not to mention nonsense, particularly the bit about "many therapists" advising people not to use NMP. How do you know this? Give us the "evidence" please.
"Give us the "evidence" please." >JaneC
I've come across not just one thread on here where somebody was almost being talked out of either starting CBT, or they were actively thinking of quitting it just after they had started on account of the accumulated negative responses. And no, I'm not making a list for you, as you obviously have the same access to aforementioned threads as I have.
I've also come across at least a couple of posts where people had just started therapy and stated their therapist told them to avoid this particular forum. Again, you can look out for those posts yourself.
In any case, I can't help finding the therapist's reactions quite understandable, given the somewhat vulnerable state of mind of their clients, particularly if they just started therapy, and the frequent abject negativity of some people concerning therapy, and particularly CBT, on here in the first place. And no, I don't see why it should be "unfair" to point this out.
I've come across not just one thread on here where somebody was almost being talked out of either starting CBT, or they were actively thinking of quitting it just after they had started on account of the accumulated negative responses.
Sorry but you will have to help me out here - I don't recall seeing threads like that at all. You repeatedly make spurious claims like this and are never willing too back them up.
I've also come across at least a couple of posts where people had just started therapy and stated their therapist told them to avoid this particular forum.
"At least a couple" isn't the same as "many". You are (belatedly) right, there have been "a couple" but as far as I remember they have involved people who were spending a very large amount of time on NMP and wasn't anything to do with what was actually being said. You are very good at twisting things to suit your argument when thy don't actually fit at all.
... and the frequent abject negativity of some people concerning therapy, and particularly CBT, on here in the first place.
Another false claim with no supporting evidence.
And no, I don't see why it should be "unfair" to point this out.
The unfairness lies in your unjustified criticisms of NMP members - negative and ignorant today, nice. There's an awful lot of people on here who I'd say were very positive in trying to get on with their lives the best they can when it would be very easy just to give up. As for ignorant? Just because people don't subscribe to your "only one thing works" argument doesn't make them/us ignorant.
There are plenty of examples of people being discouraged as regards CBT on here, and I find it ironic that even on a thread that could pose as such an example you, JaneC, are denying this aspect. You might not want to see certain things, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Sadly, they do.
Personally, I think it's you that's seeing things that aren't there. Where in this thread is anybody being discouraged to try CBT? Especially seeing as the original poster seemed to be doing something that was based far more on exposure therapy than any CBT I have experience of.
Exposure is part of CBT, and yes, I have realised that that's what you have a problem with. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but only because you are shirking exposure doesn't mean it would be wrong for other people. Because it can be very effective and beneficial, and anybody wanting to overcome their anxiety or panic, as opposed to establish it firmly into their lives, will have to overcome themselves and expose themselves to some degree sooner or later. That's the reality of the condition - there are no other ways out. It's as simple as that.
Exposure in terms of going out and facing situations was NOT part of the CBT I did with a psychiatrist but I most certainly don't shirk it. In fact, every day I go out and face situations that make me, or have in the past, made me feel anxious or panicked. There is one situation I avoid and I am aware that it is a problem that I avoid it. Don't presume to know anything about me - because you don't - and you most certainly don't have the right to make judgemental comments about me and the way I live my live, particularly when they are based on completely inaccurate assumptions on your part.
Exposure IS part of CBT in some shape or form - the whole point of it is to become active and hands-on and move towards gradually confronting one's problems, as opposed to merely talking about them. That is the strength of CBT, and why all the research clearly shows that it's the most successful treatment for anxiety, panic, OCD, and a handful of other conditions. Rail against it as much as you like, the success of CBT speaks for itself!
ladybird64
25-01-11, 20:39
Who the heck is railing against it and where?
I'm beginning to think you have really lost the plot and have some kind of persecution complex.
Exposure IS part of CBT in some shape or form - the whole point of it is to become active and hands-on and move towards gradually confronting one's problems, as opposed to merely talking about them. That is the strength of CBT, and why all the research clearly shows that it's the most successful treatment for anxiety, panic, OCD, and a handful of other conditions. Rail against it as much as you like, the success of CBT speaks for itself!
And what is this success rate? I think the success rate depends on many factors, like the patient's individual circumstances (eg, severity/type of problem), the individual therapist and their approach, the patient's outlook, duration of therapy etc.
You take a very clinical and empirical approach to something far, far more complex than you are willing to admit.
As I've said before, I am not against CBT but at the same time I don't hold your one-size-fits-all view.
Could we get back to the subject in question, please?
Ah, we are back on track. Good!
"You take a very clinical and empirical approach to something far, far more complex than you are willing to admit." >Melancholia77
On the basis of my research and personal experience, yes. It's a good and rather pragmatical start. I do not intend to write a Ph.D. about it, but am considerably more interested in the application of CBT in my life and concerning my problems.
Which is, at least for my purposes, more efficient than getting all mealy mouthed and hiding behind some blown up complexity. :winks:
Ah, we are back on track. Good!
Which is, at least for my purposes, more efficient than getting all mealy mouthed and hiding behind some blown up complexity. :winks:
Mealy mouthed indeed. The only thing that's blown up is your ego :lac:
Now back to the real world Euro.
As we are having so many other issues on NMP at the moment, we are going to take this post down, as us admins are up to our eyes in it at the moment and we can't possibly deal with this until we resolve the other issues we have going on.
So please bear with us.
nomorepanic
25-01-11, 21:51
thread re-instated but closed for now
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