View Full Version : Skeptical about anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds
I do understand that people find the symptoms of depression and anxiety dreadful, intolerable and at times, desperate BUT all the more willingness to brave them and increase our resilience towards life as a whole. What I find, in fact, dangerous about anti-depressants or anxiety medications, not only because they encourage dependency, but that they tackle these emotions as medical illnesses. While in fact, fear should be embraced because they discern us from robots and humans, from psychopaths and empathetic people, from insanity and sanity as our true strength is summoned by fear.
Anyone cares to add their own word ?:unsure:
I mean, do we have to find comfort in placing our consciousness on a wheelchair of drugs ?
Well, I've resisted meds for years, culminating in a bad crash in December.
Now, they give me a chance to turn myself around. A chance to deal with the underlying issues.
I'd like to be free of meds within a year, with some additional help.
ladybird64
12-01-11, 09:53
I do understand that people find the symptoms of depression and anxiety dreadful, intolerable and at times, desperate BUT all the more willingness to brave them and increase our resilience towards life as a whole. What I find, in fact, dangerous about anti-depressants or anxiety medications, not only because they encourage dependency, but that they tackle these emotions as medical illnesses. While in fact, fear should be embraced because they discern us from robots and humans, from psychopaths and empathetic people, from insanity and sanity as our true strength is summoned by fear.
Anyone cares to add their own word ?:unsure:
Hi Chris.
This is in reply to both this post and your following one re the "wheelchair" of drugs.
This is a very divisive subject with many strong opinions. What I personally think however is that the biggest mistake that can be made is to assume that we know what is the right treatment for others and to lump all those that have to take medication into one category.
Those that are dependent on medications.
This is a falsehood, many take medication for a short while and there is no physical risk of dependence albeit a slight psychological need which can be easily dealt with.
You seem to be of the impression that they remove all fear and make us think we are mentally ill..assumptions again I'm afraid.
I can only speak for myself but I do not fit into your categorisation. I have/had raised anxiety, agoraphobia and panic attacks for more than 25 years..in this time I did not ask for any medication. I didn't want it and did not feel that I was mentally ill although I knew that something was very wrong.
I did not realise what the problems were until an internet search brought me to this forum in 2008..I then realised just what was wrong and that it could be tackled.
After an extremely stressful situation reached breaking point at the beginning of last year, I reached breaking point too. I was severely depressed to the point that I was actively, rationally and quietly planning my own death and I do not have a single doubt that I would have gone ahead with my plan.
In a single moment of clarity I managed to go to the GP, something I had resisted for years and I was put on Citalopram. It worked almost immediately with no side effects and gave me back my rationality and therefore a reason to live.
I was on them for 6 months and decided to stop them outright which was quite a shock to the system but it is done and I am over it.
I do understand what you are saying and I do agree with certain points you make, that medication can be seen by some as a cure all.
However, the sentiments of embracing the fear are all well and good but when someone is so far down the route of depression that every day is terrifying, maybe someone who has no outside support..how do you think they can embrace the one thing that scares them so much?
Some people need breathing space, time for them to figure out a plan of action and medication often gives them just that.
Whether you agree or not, there are other who need to take medication for longer and sometimes permanently..this does not make them emotional cripples.
I must admit I do get annoyed when people say they understand "but" and then make generalisations such as your "comfort in a wheelchair of drugs."
I fought my fears for longer than some of the people on this forum have been on this earth! Should I feel bad because I had to take a 6 month course of a medication that gave me back the power to think rationally?
Of course not. Neither should anybody else. :)
You put it so well Ladybird.
Jo.xx
Chris, without going on too long, basically you are completely wrong :)
So, when you break your leg, you will refuse painkillers, cast and crutches and will continue to walk on the broken leg, bearing the pain as the leg never gets better and heals, or heals naturally and leaves you with a limp for life ?
nomorepanic
12-01-11, 14:03
I think medication has its place and purpose but if you rely on it soley to overcome panic/anxiety then you are putting far too much emphasis on its use and could end up very disappointed.
Medication alongside talking therapies such as CBT would suit most people.
I do feel that many people on here (myself included 13 years ago) were given medication by their doctor and told to go away, keep taking the pills and we would be fine. Well it isn't that easy!
It really needs to be short term whilst waiting for and then alongside CBT (for example) to get the most benefit.
I have read endless posts over the years on here of people becoming "immune" to the medication, so it is upped and upped in dose and then they are either told to change to a different one or come off it.
Coming off most anti-depressants can be hard work and then the person hits rock bottom again as there were no fail-safe procedures put in place to cushion the fall.
My thoughts anyway.
bomberbeamish
12-01-11, 14:26
chris
you have a right to your own view, but i dought you have never felt the full affects of a panic attack, or agro, or depression because u cant see it, many people dismiss it. YOU are wrong and i agree with mike if you break your leg ect. i can see your post will upset alot of people on here, a lot of us take them short term to get us on our way but others may not, but who cares if they are living life to full and happy. next time you have a massive head ache or in pain, DONT REACH FOR THE PAIN KILLERS........ SUFFER IT.
Well said, Nicola. I totally agree with every word you're saying.
The problem with medication is that it tends to take the edge off the mood disorder, whilst at the same time it doesn't cure it. It makes everything somewhat manageable, and might be a good way to bridge a particularly bad phase, granted, but in the long term I've witnessed it having devastating effects on people, time and time again, dominating their lives by keeping them in limbo, often adding an addiction with all related problems this entails to an already heavy load of problems, affecting people sometimes for years or decades to come. It's a bit like sitting in a waiting room waiting for a train that never comes.
I think at the heart of it is avoidance. If you think about it, why would anybody be motivated to brace the difficult and often harrowing emotions involved with confronting one's problems, when they can sit in the waiting room at least *thinking* about confronting those underlying issues and problems?
This might sound callous, but the more manageable the condition, the less motivation there will be to put in the hard work to actually actively deal with it. And, as is the nature of avoidance, it is a vicious circle: The more you avoid, the more you want to avoid. And consequently, the problems will be thriving.
And no, this is not merely a generalisation, but there is truth in this, in the same way that there is truth in the fact that we will all bleed if we cut ourselves. There are certain causes and effects that just can't be talked away.
Yet another derogatory anti-medication thread. What purpose does this serve Chris, apart from making those who fight against medication feel even worse for having to take them?
As for embracing fear - what a load of old twaddle! I'm sure people who make these comments have no real experience of fear. There you go, I can generalise too!
I think it would be more helpful, instead of merely discounting medication, maybe tell everyone HOW to embrace the abject terror.
I look forward to reading your guidance :)
Oh dear. I did try to resist getting involved in this debate (again). Why do certain anti-meds people feel the need to preach to med users that we are inadequate? You don't want to take them? Don't take them. But do you have come on here and make people who do take them feel bad? What do you gain from it?
Can I just make this point to European - ADs help me to avoid avoidance :yesyes:
Yes, I will add my own word.
If you don't want to take meds for x, y or z reason then DON'T. No one will ram them down your throat.
If you've ever felt the overwhelming urge to take your own life and haven't even got the strength to see the ****ing doctor, then perhaps you will refrain from coming on this site and making generalisations about "mental illness".
I'm sick to death of people being made to feel like a piece of shit for apparently not having the courage or strength to deal with depression, anxiety, panic, OCD etc without having to resort to taking meds.
ladybird64
12-01-11, 15:53
Now calm thyself young MM. :winks:
I wondered what I was doing for all those years, I thought I was working through my panics, raising my family amd working two jobs.
I guess that none of that counts as it all must boil down to the fact that when I was suicidally depressed last year and at long, long last agreed to try meds I was actually "avoiding" facing my situation.
Wow. How's that for a nice gentle kick in the teeth. :lac:
I think strength and courage is proved when most of us struggle on, trying to cope with whatever life throws at us for scores of years usually, before finally seeking help. Where's the weakness of character in that scenario.
nomorepanic
12-01-11, 16:53
I would never tell someone to ditch the medication at all but I would suggest that alongside the meds they get some form of CBT as well.
I think this discussion always gets heated lol.
"Why do certain anti-meds people feel the need to preach to med users that we are inadequate?">JaneC
Nobody has told anyone anything of the kind - apart from you and other people immediately jumping to conclusions, interpreting everything against yourselves and getting irrationally defensive.
This is a public forum and as such inviting people's opinions, based, largely, one should think, on their experiences. And this doesn't just mean one side of the coin, i.e. merely what one is used to and wants to hear.
What is the point of a forum like this if we aren't allowed to talk about the possible root causes, and how it might all come together, but instead dwell endlessly on symptoms and on which medication to take instead? Are we all just here to tap on each other's back? And where is that getting anybody, really?
"Why do certain anti-meds people feel the need to preach to med users that we are inadequate?">JaneC
Nobody has told anyone anything of the kind - apart from you and other people immediately jumping to conclusions, interpreting everything against yourselves and getting irrationally defensive.
This is a public forum and as such inviting people's opinions, based, largely, one should think, on their experiences. And this doesn't just mean one side of the coin, i.e. merely what one is used to and wants to hear.
What is the point of a forum like this if we aren't allowed to talk about the possible root causes, and how it might all come together, but instead dwell endlessly on symptoms and on which medication to take instead? Are we all just here to tap on each other's back? And where is that getting anybody, really?
There are ways of saying things and ways of getting your point across without making other people feel bad about their efforts to deal with their problems, IMO, particularly if you make it clear you are expressing an opinion and/or speaking from experience and not trying to force your views on other people.
Personally, I am well enough to find debates such as this interesting and worth having but, once again, no-one has ever said you are not entitled to express an opinion European, you just come out with the same stuff any time someone expresses disagreement with yours. Post away, but other people may wish to respond with their viewpoint.
I know I am wasting my breath here, but what if I was to start telling people something like, "For God's sake, stop being pathetic and just take the pills". Would that be acceptable too?
I think we got your drift the last time European If anyones interested they can read your last posts on the subject via your profile ..Save us all from this again .THIS IS BECOMING TIRESOME .:zipit: Sue
ladybird64
12-01-11, 18:11
I love a good discussion and exchange of opinions..it's very healthy. :D
European, in regard to your remarks re the endless dwelling on symptoms and medications perhaps it would be better to avoid the sections of the forum that cover these topics..if they irritate you that is.
It is a "broad spectrum" forum so to speak and there are other areas which may be of interest. Entirely up to you though.
And as my final, probably unwanted contribution to this thread...nice breeze anybody? http://digilander.libero.it/faccinewub/w/13/air.gif just cooling the atmosphere...:yesyes:
Hmm, well tell someone with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, severe depression, PTSD etc... to 'face their fears' :winks: - tbh 'facing your fears' sounds the sort of thing therapists who have learned from a book and never actually experienced mental health problems personally say.
The point ( and reason docs give meds for anx ) is that the meds settle down your mind, and make it easier to cope in the short term, so, as Nicola said, you can look at other solutions and just get a bit of breathing space to learn other ways to cope with the problems, and see things more rationally.
I never imagined I would have mental health problems, but I do, and I take meds - the meds along with seeing a therapist have helped a lot in a) coping with a very hard time in my life b) stopping the depression, which made it impossible to see anything positively and c) starting to deal with my issues and find out more about me and why I react to things the way I do.
I dont imagine I will ever be 'cured' as such, but that isnt really the point, as long as I can continue to have a standard of life I am happy with, then I can put up with the odd down days, blips, and anxiety about daft stuff :)
Also, there seems to be some school of thought that people who take meds have either 'failed' or are 'weak people' which is rubbish, hence my broken leg analogy in my previous post.
Sadly some people who would benefit from meds dont take them, and you can see them on here, going round in circles and never getting any better.
"If you've ever felt the overwhelming urge to take your own life and haven't even got the strength to see the ****ing doctor, then perhaps you will refrain from coming on this site and making generalisations about "mental illness".">Melancholia77
I've done my first suicide attempt as a hapless 15 year old in emotional free-fall. Almost succeeded and ended up in a coma for 10 days - so please don't tell me what it's like. And by the way, self-pity isn't getting you - or anybody else here - anywhere fast.
"but what if I was to start telling people something like, "For God's sake, stop being pathetic and just take the pills".">JaneC
If you look at the volume of threads on this forum (and all the sub-forums!), I think you will realise that this is precisely what the majority of contributions are saying. Which is not surprising, really, as it's always the same usual suspects, or should I say, the same cliques, that gang up against anybody who dares to even point at what a lot them obviously don't want to hear. You might silence people or even bully them away, but that doesn't detract one iota from the fact that your reasons for doing this are self-serving, self-defeating and narrow minded. And personally I do think it's your loss.
"There are ways of saying things and ways of getting your point across without making other people feel bad">JaneC
No matter how one sugar-coats issues like 'personal responsibility', 'avoidance' or the 'fear of change' (which might outweigh the anxiety problem), there will always be people who have their heads firmly in the sand and won't hear about it. Which is entirely up to them, don't get me wrong, but it shouldn't keep all others from having a debate about it.
It's not just me, but there are a numerous threads on here where someone addresses the issues mentioned above and is subsequently treated like a troll. And there is something inherently destructive and wrong about this, even more so on a forum that is supposed to help people.
ElizabethJane
12-01-11, 18:29
Dear Chris if you don't want meds for your depression/anxiety state then don't take them. I have a serious mental illness (in remission) I suffer from severe recurrent depressive disorder and take lithium and mirtazapine to control it. I have also had most therapies known to man and woman! Tell my husband I don't need my meds when has to deal with a suicidally depressed woman with a young child begging him not to leave me and go to work. Do not discourage people from going to their GPs and seeking help. Hopefully most people will be on meds short term and come off them and never have another episode. Some of us are here for the long haul on heavy duty meds. Nothing to be ashamed of. Oh by the way I work part time and have a fairly active social life. If the meds are not for you then fine. For some of us our lives depend on them (literally) Would like to meet you then you would see that I'm not in a 'wheelchair of drugs' Would like to see you doing a few laps of your local pool! EJ.
"but what if I was to start telling people something like, "For God's sake, stop being pathetic and just take the pills".">JaneC
If you look at the volume of threads on this forum (and all the sub-forums!), I think you will realise that this is precisely what the majority of contributions are saying.
Give me just ONE example of a post where somebody has tried to tell someone who does not want to take meds that they should just get over themselves and get them down their throat.
Chris I am sorry your thread has turned into this. I don't think you have been around long enough to know the way such a discussion always goes. As EJ says (:hugs: EJ) if you personally don't want to take meds, that's absolutely up to you . Some of us, however, would not have a life without them x
"If you've ever felt the overwhelming urge to take your own life and haven't even got the strength to see the ****ing doctor, then perhaps you will refrain from coming on this site and making generalisations about "mental illness".">Melancholia77
I've done my first suicide attempt as a hapless 15 year old in emotional free-fall. Almost succeeded and ended up in a coma for 10 days - so please don't tell me what it's like. And by the way, self-pity isn't getting you - or anybody else here - anywhere fast.
No, not self-pity. Just pity for you and your political-minded, patronising bullshit. Throw yourself into the recycler while you're fishing out your old posts.
You are far from anywhere near "cured" and you revel in coming on here and indulging in schadenfreude. If you are cured then perhaps you'd like to share your secret, instead of machiavellianism and self-righteousness.
"Do not discourage people from going to their GPs and seeking help.">ElizabethJane
Nobody is doing this at all!
"Give me just ONE example of a post where somebody has tried to tell someone who does not want to take meds that they should just get over themselves and get them down their throat.">JaneC
Sorry, I'm not stupid enough to get drawn into this kind of tit for tatting - if you don't realise that this forum is heavily biased towards the side of medication, then I don't know what universe you're living in.
I think you'd be considerably more pressed to come up with examples where people actually have some knowledge about Cognitive Behavioural techniques and talk about them in some detail, because there are none that I'm aware of - zilch, nada.... Which, on a forum like this, is almost criminally neglectful.
ElizabethJane
12-01-11, 18:56
"Do not discourage people from going to their GPs and seeking help.">ElizabethJane
Nobody is doing this at all!
"Give me just ONE example of a post where somebody has tried to tell someone who does not want to take meds that they should just get over themselves and get them down their throat.">JaneC
Sorry, I'm not stupid enough to get drawn into this kind of tit for tatting - if you don't realise that this forum is heavily biased towards the side of medication, then I don't know what universe you're living in.
I think you'd be considerably more pressed to come up with examples where people actually have some knowledge about Cognitive Behavioural techniques and talk about them in some detail, because there are none that I'm aware of - zilch, nada.... Which, on a forum like this, is almost criminally neglectful.
If I was new and reading this thread I would seriously think that people were telling me not to take meds. It is good that you can interlectualise your depression. I couldn't do this. I was bed bound inarticulate no longer wanting to eat or dress completely out of it. I have had CBT and there are some very good threads here about it. Sadly it did not work for me. I was too depressed for it to work efficiently. My psychiatrist has devised a plan for me. It is DRUGS and staying in the 'here and now' I'm the exception rather than the rule on this forum. I would hope that most people find help and support here and when it is time to leave leave. EJ.
ladybird64
12-01-11, 18:57
I know, I know..I'm back in the conversation..briefly. :D
European..if the forum is biased towards medication then it is the forum users who choose to make it that way whatever our own opinons on the matter. Should we pick and choose what posts appear?
You asked for a higher profile for CBT and you got the seperate sub-forum that was requested.
This IS a public forum and people can choose what they want to post about, same as we can choose if we want to answer them.
I'm not quite sure what it is you do have a problem with to be honest. :shrug:
European - pmsl - you dont think people on here have done CBT ? erm... lots have, some have found it great and very helpful, others not so much, and some have found they have got more help from meds.
Yes, I have done CBT, did very little for me, I have found meds and other forms of therapy much more helpful. One of the probs with CBT is what you get depends on the person giving it to you, and all seem to have their own preferred methods, which work for some problems and not others ( for example, meditating yourself out of severe depression doesnt work for a start ! )
I do take the others points on here though, once you are completely cured, and not from using meds, then come back and tell people how it can be done, as that would be something useful, rather than saying 'I dont take meds as I dont need them, but then again ummm... I'm not cured' as that just muddies the waters
It is also the case that the owner of the forum repeatedly posts her opinion that meds are not the answer. It is also the case that there have been fewer posts in the medication section than in several others.
It is also the case the European likes to dismiss other people's arguments out of hand while being selective in what he is prepared to respond to.
And if people ask for help regarding CBT, I think others try to help them to the best of their ability. Personally I don't always find it that easy to explain, and if someone is "stuck" with it then I don't know how to help them get over that.
And one more thing .. how much help have you given to people on the CBT forum, European?
"I was bed bound inarticulate no longer wanting to eat or dress completely out of it. I have had CBT and there are some very good threads here about it. Sadly it did not work for me. I was too depressed for it to work efficiently. My psychiatrist has devised a plan for me. It is DRUGS and staying in the 'here and now'">ElizabethJane
I have never met you, nor do I know your circumstances, Elizabeth Jane, so, based on this, how could I possibly form a personalised and detailed opinion or even judge you? Fact is, I can't, and haven't got any interest whatsoever in this.
What's considerably more important, anyway, is what you think about yourself, and how you are judging your own ways of dealing with your predicament. If you are ok with this and think you are dealing with everything in the best possible way available to you, then I think there is no reason why you should even think about justifying yourself. I certainly didn't ask you (or anybody else) for it.
"I'm not quite sure what it is you do have a problem with to be honest.">ladybird64
I'm having a problem with the evident impossibility to have an open and honest debate. There is far too much brushed under the rug on here, and it's not healthy, as it doesn't really help most people at all, but merely keeps them exactly where they are.
But maybe I'm missing the point and that's the objective altogether?
I'm having a problem with the evident impossibility to have an open and honest debate. There is far too much brushed under the rug on here, and it's not healthy, as it doesn't really help most people at all, but merely keeps them exactly where they are.
But maybe I'm missing the point and that's the objective altogether?
Then goodbye and don't come back :emot-wave:
Seems to me we are having an open and honest debate right now, we just don't all agree with what you say. And what exactly gets 'brushed under the rug"?
Sorry MM, I'll defer to you lol
"Then goodbye and don't come back">Melancholia77
Thank you for confirming everything I said! ;-)
ElizabethJane
12-01-11, 19:20
"I was bed bound inarticulate no longer wanting to eat or dress completely out of it. I have had CBT and there are some very good threads here about it. Sadly it did not work for me. I was too depressed for it to work efficiently. My psychiatrist has devised a plan for me. It is DRUGS and staying in the 'here and now'">ElizabethJane
I have never met you, nor do I know your circumstances, Elizabeth Jane, so, based on this, how could I possibly form a personalised and detailed opinion or even judge you? Fact is, I can't, and haven't got any interest whatsoever in this.
What's considerably more important, anyway, is what you think about yourself, and how you are judging your own ways of dealing with your predicament. If you are ok with this and think you are dealing with everything in the best possible way available to you, then I think there is no reason why you should even think about justifying yourself. I certainly didn't ask you (or anybody else) for it.
"I'm not quite sure what it is you do have a problem with to be honest.">ladybird64
I'm having a problem with the evident impossibility to have an open and honest debate. There is far too much brushed under the rug on here, and it's not healthy, as it doesn't really help most people at all, but merely keeps them exactly where they are.
But maybe I'm missing the point and that's the objective altogether?
I was trying to give you an obvious example where meds might be very useful in alleviating depression. Unforunately you do not sound like the type of person I would get on with anyway. EJ
ladybird64
12-01-11, 19:20
Why do you choose to quote the last sentence and ignore everything else I said in my post?
You got what you wanted, a CBT forum.
I don't see you post on it much but that's your business.
What exactly is brushed under the rug and by whom? Is there some big conspiracy going on that I don't know about?
Are we keeping hordes of anxiety sufferers suffering because..well, I dunno? :unsure: What would be the point of that..it's a free forum generating no revenue except for donations.
Please explain.
Its all very well members giving their own personal opinion but can we not go down the road of name calling as this will be breaking the rules of NMP.
ladybird64
12-01-11, 19:24
Awww I wanted to find out about the hidden objective of NMP. :unsure:
And I'm still waiting to find out what European has contributed to the CBT forum :unsure:
ladybird64
12-01-11, 19:37
Psssst Sue..the link doesn't work.
I don't think my attempt at cool calming breezes has worked has it. :shades:
I don't think my attempt at cool calming breezes has worked has it. :shades:
I enjoyed it Ladybird, I have a bit of a temperature with this virus I have and found it very soothing :hugs:
Just another keyboard warrior I'm afraid.:lac:
At no point have I seen European offer any support on this thread or give any examples of CBT techniques. I find your posts offensive and argumentative
nomorepanic
12-01-11, 19:47
Woah - can we calm down. Let's not go on a witch hunt again please and keep this civil.
ElizabethJane
12-01-11, 19:49
"I was bed bound inarticulate no longer wanting to eat or dress completely out of it. I have had CBT and there are some very good threads here about it. Sadly it did not work for me. I was too depressed for it to work efficiently. My psychiatrist has devised a plan for me. It is DRUGS and staying in the 'here and now'">ElizabethJane
I have never met you, nor do I know your circumstances, Elizabeth Jane, so, based on this, how could I possibly form a personalised and detailed opinion or even judge you? Fact is, I can't, and haven't got any interest whatsoever in this.
What's considerably more important, anyway, is what you think about yourself, and how you are judging your own ways of dealing with your predicament. If you are ok with this and think you are dealing with everything in the best possible way available to you, then I think there is no reason why you should even think about justifying yourself. I certainly didn't ask you (or anybody else) for it.
"I'm not quite sure what it is you do have a problem with to be honest.">ladybird64
I'm having a problem with the evident impossibility to have an open and honest debate. There is far too much brushed under the rug on here, and it's not healthy, as it doesn't really help most people at all, but merely keeps them exactly where they are.
But maybe I'm missing the point and that's the objective altogether?
If things have been brushed under the rug then I or anybody else would not have noticed them? What has been hidden from view I may ask? Think I'm missing something/missing the point? EJ.
ladybird64
12-01-11, 19:49
Oi Nic..didn't you see my cool calming breezes gesture?
You'll have me giving out sweeties next :D
Ange don't suppose you have a calming soothing lozenge for my horrendous sore throat have you :shrug:
nomorepanic
12-01-11, 20:04
LB - I will have some sweeties please. Ta
ladybird64
12-01-11, 20:07
Sweeties all round. But not Jelly Babies. Or Dolly Mixtures..Eww.
Smarties and M&M's anyone? Strepsils or Halls Soothers for the virus afflicted among us...enjoy. :winks:
No calm Breezes LB ...Just a wee draft . :D.....SUE X
Why not Jelly Babies LB? I'd only want green ones :wacko:
And has anybody got some paracetamol? I have nasty flu-ey ache all over now :lac:
bomberbeamish
12-01-11, 21:41
Sorry diane.
LB thinks of everything!
Thanks comrade http://digilander.libero.it/faccinewub/w/13/air.gif
nomorepanic
12-01-11, 23:18
I was talking to someone about this medication debate tonight and they said something quite interesting...
If they are so good how come the most searched for word on NMP is citalopram and how come people aren't cured and still posting on NMP for help.
Now this got me thinking as I am interested in what people expect medication to do and has it actually acheived this for you?
Unfortunately we don't get many people coming back once they stop taking the medication to tell us how they are now.
I was expecting miracles from the two medications I was on and when they failed to deliver I stopped taking them as I felt they were "changing me" and my mind.
I am not sure that medication is delivering what people think and expect it to or we wouldn't have so many posts about it surely???
Just some thoughts for discussion anyway.
cymraig_chris
13-01-11, 00:03
Post removed by author
Excellent post Dahlia. It reflects my sentiments on the benefits of meds. I never believed they'd cure me and they haven't - but they have certainly helped me along the way.
I always liken meds to a plaster. Plasters don't heal us - they only cover up and protect the wound. The healing comes from within. This is why I think relying solely on drugs to heal the human condition - regardless of whether they work or not - is cheating yourself.
I've repeated all this loads of times and it's just that I get tired of people coming on here to undermine and diminish the struggles we all go through in order to recover.
harasgenster
13-01-11, 12:25
Wow, I've totally missed this discussion.
Have I gone through years completely unaware of the idea medication is such a political subject?
Meds or no meds, nobody is burying their head in the sand. Medication is there for a reason but it isn't suitable for everyone. I agree that the only way to get out of anxiety is to face (NOT EMBRACE!) the fears. I'm not sure what embracing fear is but it doesn't sound healthy!
I've met only a handful of people who had got the wrong idea about meds - that they're a cure. They're not a cure, most people are quite aware of this. The reason meds are there is to help us become strong and stable enough to do the whole tough skin thing.
It takes a tough skin to get over anxiety and depression, but it's difficult to have a tough skin if you suffer severely as it is extremely difficult to unravel everything that is bothering you by yourself.
To be honest, I don't understand the controversy here or how such a debate gets so heated. The idea there are cliques of med supporters and those who don't like them doesn't really make sense. It's a personal choice, not a political belief!
Hiya
I just want to say that I think this is a really relevant discussion and can be extremely useful if done in a non confrontational way.
I am unsure on whether to take meds or not and so I am reading the posts with interest.
I was talking to someone about this medication debate tonight and they said something quite interesting...
If they are so good how come the most searched for word on NMP is citalopram and how come people aren't cured and still posting on NMP for help.
Now this got me thinking as I am interested in what people expect medication to do and has it actually acheived this for you?
Unfortunately we don't get many people coming back once they stop taking the medication to tell us how they are now.
I was expecting miracles from the two medications I was on and when they failed to deliver I stopped taking them as I felt they were "changing me" and my mind.
I am not sure that medication is delivering what people think and expect it to or we wouldn't have so many posts about it surely???
Just some thoughts for discussion anyway.
I think you have hit the nail on the head in a way Nic - that people often do seem to have unrealistic expectations of ADs, and I think at least part of the "blame" for this can be laid at the door of docs who hand them out without explaining that it's not just a case of taking them and you'll be fine, that you might have to work to help yourself as well.
Perhaps meds can work on their own with short-term or less severe conditions, but for most of us on here I'd say there has to be more to it.
Like Melancholia, I have never seen them as a cure; I don't think cure is ever the right word - they are a treatment. Perhaps I could dredge up the diabetic example again: insulin is a treatment, not a cure, and if diabetics don't look after themselves in other ways on top of taking their injections, they are not going to be well.
i learned a long time ago, through experience rather than any advice from a doc at the outset, that I can't just pop the pills and that's where it stops. But I do genuinely believe I still gain a huge benefit from them. It's hard to put into words what I gain from them, I can only say that they help me to function something like a "normal" person, that I can do most of the things "normal" people do without being swallowed up by a black cloud of negative thoughts and abject terror and give me space to be able to practise things like CBT.
I understand that some people feel that meds turn themselves into someone else, or that they numb emotions, but I have never experienced either of those things.
And yet the doubts can be stirred up. Am I just a weak person? Have I not really tried hard enough to help myself? Maybe I haven't but I have to hold on to the thought that I am doing as much as I can in the circumstances I find myself in and TBH I have enough to deal with in life without people putting doubts in my head about myself (I don't mean you there Nic, I understand your argument).
Well, apologies for the ramble. Dahlia, thank you for your well-thought out and rational post. Mel, you sum up my views too. Kells, Im glad you have found this thread in some way helpful and apologise for my confrontational contributions.
I am also glad that this thread has not been locked or deleted (so far) as I do think this is an issue that is well worth discussing.
:hugs: to everybody
ElizabethJane
13-01-11, 15:18
Thanks MM. I think also that there are people who maybe have an acute episode of anxiety, due to a stressor. They may feel bad for 6 months, say, then it goes. Whereas I have had it for 33 years - it's chronic and it first showed up when I was 4 years old. I have faced my fears lots of times, beaten them, got my life back (this was pre-meds) - but then the bugger just rears its head again a year down the line and I'm back at square one going through the excruciating 'facing the fear' again. When that has happened for so many years, it is only natural to just want a pill that stops the agony, otherwise life is a constant battle. But I hope that now I am connecting with this particular type of therapy, I may become more resistant and able to cope better with the inevitable relapses - as hopefully I will be viewing them through a different 'lens' than before.
Dahlia
I'm here with you Dahila. I have travelled down this road many many times. EJ
I maintain that there are such things as *pay-offs*. And this is not just empty psycho-babble, nor did I invent this phenomenon to make anybody on here feel bad - but it exists in everyday life for each and every single one of us.
To merely narrow the question of how to deal with a mood disorder down to meds or no meds is a simplification, in my opinion, as it totally bypasses the heart of the matter, which is the *(hidden) motivations* for any decision taken in this respect. By the very nature of things, each of us can only answer the question of what motivates us in the way we are dealing with our mood disorder on an entirely personal level, and it's only us who will suffer the consequences if we are more - or less - honest with ourselves. Ultimately it's about our own judgement of ourselves, which is, I think, the reason why some people have turned as abjectly hateful on this thread as they have. Make no mistake: It's not me or anybody else who is judging you. But what makes you so upset and vicious is because you are judging yourself!
Be that as it may, it's those motivations, and often hidden motivations, that I'm interested in, because anyone's progress or misery largely depend on it. And it could be worthwhile to think about, and probably even talk about this, without having to throw the dummy out of the pram.
I do believe medication does have it's benefits in the short term, and I do resolve to meds myself. For example when I had half a dozen dentist appointments last year for some root canal treatment I didn't hesitate to take a 2mg of diazepam pill beforehand. No problem. Having said that, it's absolutely clear to me that this isn't a solution, but merely a patch, as the solution ultimately would be to get myself into root canal treatment without any medication. Not because I have to, but because the independence of this would be constructive and ultimately empowering. It would be good for me.
On the other hand, I've never experienced or witnessed long term medication to have any empowering effect. Neither on me, nor on the people I know. Which is where my scepticism comes in.
There are just too many pay-offs and hidden motivations involved that would allow someone to go through their lives reasonably comfortable on medication for years, and probably decades, and because it allows that person to just hold their head over water, they believe to some extent that they are coping. How could anybody possibly 'own' their progress, if this progress is basically attributed to some pills? In other words: What seems to be 'coping' is largely a dependency, with all the added difficulties this entails. And because it's all somewhat manageable, why would someone have any necessity to at least think towards change, when change, and the effort to set this change in motion, would be so much more terrifying than their more or less bearable medicated life?
And no, this is not a judgement on my part, because, as I said earlier, only you can genuinely answer those questions and have it out with yourself. I'm merely thinking about those issues and putting them on the table, which doesn't make me a bad person.
The crux of the matter is, that each and every single one of us will have to deal with our own pay-offs and (hidden) motivations, and decide which path to take accordingly. I'm not telling anybody what to do (and never have done!), but, particularly on an open forum like this, it should be allowed to think about these aspects and discuss them, as I believe them to be relevant. Which is, at least in my mind, what an forum like this is about.
Enabling is a very good description, Dahlia. I'd also go as far as to use "empowering" in my case.
"Something that is empowering makes you more confident and makes you feel that you are in control of your life"
ElizabethJane
13-01-11, 18:41
I maintain that there are such things as *pay-offs*. And this is not just empty psycho-babble, nor did I invent this phenomenon to make anybody on here feel bad - but it exists in everyday life for each and every single one of us.
To merely narrow the question of how to deal with a mood disorder down to meds or no meds is a simplification, in my opinion, as it totally bypasses the heart of the matter, which is the *(hidden) motivations* for any decision taken in this respect. By the very nature of things, each of us can only answer the question of what motivates us in the way we are dealing with our mood disorder on an entirely personal level, and it's only us who will suffer the consequences if we are more - or less - honest with ourselves. Ultimately it's about our own judgement of ourselves, which is, I think, the reason why some people have turned as abjectly hateful on this thread as they have. Make no mistake: It's not me or anybody else who is judging you. But what makes you so upset and vicious is because you are judging yourself!
Be that as it may, it's those motivations, and often hidden motivations, that I'm interested in, because anyone's progress or misery largely depend on it. And it could be worthwhile to think about, and probably even talk about this, without having to throw the dummy out of the pram.
I do believe medication does have it's benefits in the short term, and I do resolve to meds myself. For example when I had half a dozen dentist appointments last year for some root canal treatment I didn't hesitate to take a 2mg of diazepam pill beforehand. No problem. Having said that, it's absolutely clear to me that this isn't a solution, but merely a patch, as the solution ultimately would be to get myself into root canal treatment without any medication. Not because I have to, but because the independence of this would be constructive and ultimately empowering. It would be good for me.
On the other hand, I've never experienced or witnessed long term medication to have any empowering effect. Neither on me, nor on the people I know. Which is where my scepticism comes in.
There are just too many pay-offs and hidden motivations involved that would allow someone to go through their lives reasonably comfortable on medication for years, and probably decades, and because it allows that person to just hold their head over water, they believe to some extent that they are coping. How could anybody possibly 'own' their progress, if this progress is basically attributed to some pills? In other words: What seems to be 'coping' is largely a dependency, with all the added difficulties this entails. And because it's all somewhat manageable, why would someone have any necessity to at least think towards change, when change, and the effort to set this change in motion, would be so much more terrifying than their more or less bearable medicated life?
And no, this is not a judgement on my part, because, as I said earlier, only you can genuinely answer those questions and have it out with yourself. I'm merely thinking about those issues and putting them on the table, which doesn't make me a bad person.
The crux of the matter is, that each and every single one of us will have to deal with our own pay-offs and (hidden) motivations, and decide which path to take accordingly. I'm not telling anybody what to do (and never have done!), but, particularly on an open forum like this, it should be allowed to think about these aspects and discuss them, as I believe them to be relevant. Which is, at least in my mind, what an forum like this is about.
Dear European you make many good points here which I guess are from your own experiences of anxiety and depression. I do not regard myself as merely 'holding my head above the water'I am able to lead a near normal life and hold down a job and belong to three choirs. I would love to come off my meds but that is not an issue for me at the moment. If I did I would have to accept the consequencies of becoming ill fairly rapidly. I think that you have got some aspects of this arguement wrong. You want to see the whole picture but only see what you can read about or from your own experiences? Have you actually met someone who is on meds long term? I tried for years wrestling with these questions whether I should be on meds or not. There have been long periods when I haven't been on meds then without 'supervision' a rapid decline into mental illness. I suppose I am one of the lucky ones who is 'high functioning' and my memory and interlect remain sharp. I'm not interested in interlectual mind games either. I'm too old for that. I wih you well. EJ.
"Currently, my meds take the role of enabler, rather than what you might term a crutch.">Dahlia
I like the differentiation between "enabler" and "crutch", Dahlia. I think it makes a lot of sense. Having said that, we all have to have it out with ourselves in terms of which is which regarding our decisions in this respect, because ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating: Whether the use of medication has indeed been enabling or not will only become apparent after one's stopped taking it. I think that's when the truth of the matter will be truly out and when it will be decided whether or not one is 'owning' one's decisions and one's progress, or has more or less ascribed it to the medication.
I think it's incredibly important to 'own' one's own progress, and it's very subtle and potentially hit and miss:
I used to be in a relationship for years and my partner very much liked to travel, which filled me with utmost dread. Nevertheless, in order to appear 'normal' and not to disappoint my partner, or even risk the relationship on account of refusing to travel at all, I pulled myself together and travelled here, there and everywhere. I somehow managed with the help of beta-blockers and valium, but was sick with worry and anxiety weeks before being due at the airport, and generally worked myself up into a frenzy genuinely believing my life would come to an end as soon as I'd sit down on the plane. Nevertheless, I always somehow managed.
After several years and about a dozen or so travel occasions later, I got really, really frustrated, as my fear and dread would not diminish or subside one bit at all, and every time I did literally think I'm going to die. I felt really cheated, as there didn't seem any progress, despite travelling again and again....
It was only with the benefit of hindsight that I realised my efforts didn't work, well.... simply because I didn't 'own' my decisions. I wasn't travelling because *I* wanted to, but for the sake of my partner and in order to live up to everybody else's expectations. Even though I had managed every single time to get to the destination and back, it would never have occurred to me to give myself a pat on the shoulder and tell myself 'well done', because I felt I was just tagging along and furthermore only managing on behalf of the medication. In my mind, it was my partner and the medication who got me out and about - not myself.
Hence, I didn't 'own' the fact that I actually did manage to travel. I didn't register it as my achievement, or even my decision, and so the panic would start and start and start every time anew.
That's why I believe these days that one can basically only have it out with oneself. Medication can help, friends and family can help, etc. but mostly, at least in my experience, 'meaning well' is often the opposite of 'doing well' in this context, because a lot of the so called help from outside, however well meant, is not an individual incentive to change and progress, but tends to keep one treading water. This might sound brutal, but progress generally doesn't happen if one is comfortable.
In order to make a real and lasting difference, one has to have it out with oneself and 'own' one's will to change. Only by 'owning' one's own choice in favour of change will change actually be possible. And nothing and nobody can be roped in to truly and lastingly substitute this choice.
And of course this is not black and white, either/or, etc., but, by the very nature of things, pretty much a work in progress. Which is again why I think this forum could be incredibly helpful in order to make an exchange possible in view of dealing with this progress. Everybody according to their own individual steps.
"I think that switch has been made in my mind. Whereas before it would have been 'I've got to go to Shanghai or I will lose my job, I have no choice', I now think 'I choose to go to Shanghai as I enjoy my job and want to keep working in it".">Dahlia
Good for you, Dahlia! I think it's amazing how just a slightly different angle in one's mind can make such a difference in the real world! :)
Whether the use of medication has indeed been enabling or not will only become apparent after one's stopped taking it.
I get the impression you are ignoring me European but I really don't see how this argument stands up. Medication can surely be enabling in the short term or long term, depending on the individual's requirements? Btw, I'd still like to hear what you have contributed to the CBT forum YOU asked to have created.
Good for you Dahlia - tbh thats something my therapist made me realise as well - trying to see the difference between things I cant do, and things I choose not to do because I wouldnt want to anyway.
As an example, I couldnt go out clubbing until the early hours, but then even if I could, I wouldnt, so not being able to is no great loss !
(ps. sorry, aware my past few posts have been a bit 'me, me, me')
Not at all Dahlia, what you've had to say has been very interesting xxx
"I get the impression you are ignoring me European">JaneC
....which is simply because you've got nothing to say apart from monotonously repeating the lowest common denominator medication mantra and furthermore engage in the usual manipulative bully tactics in order to silence any dissent, i.e. anything you don't want to hear, in this context. I'm sorry, but life's too short....
"Btw, I'd still like to hear what you have contributed to the CBT forum YOU asked to have created.">JaneC
Since you have repeatedly poked me with this question, JaneC, let me give you an answer:
First of all, the mere fact of me bringing up the necessity of a CBT forum doesn't logically mean I would be responsible for this forum. Why would it?
And btw, there seem to have been quite a few people using this CBT sub-forum (and not just for gossiping), which I think speaks for itself.
Secondly, I decided to call it a day on this website after I have been called names (which then got conveniently spirited away by an ever so unbiased and 'fair' moderator, thus manipulating the entire context), have been sworn at, have been ganged up on and collectively ridiculed in an attempt to shut me up (as you know, JaneC, you played a vital part in this with your cronies). I have just been literally told to basically bugger off and leave the site a couple of days ago, which elicited a lot of glee by the usual suspects....
But back to my answer: In October last year I felt like talking against a wall. Also, what freaked me out slightly was the totally disproportionate reaction from some people, who obviously thought it was ok to engage in barely concealed hatred. I decided this was pointless and consequently stayed away to spend my time more constructively.
THAT is the reason I didn't engage in the CBT forum - I wasn't here. And you and your bully tactics had a vital part to play in that! (And by the way, it was not just me who got ganged up on and chased away back in October, but a few other people as well, who decided they would not be "bullied". Having had a good read of a number of threads since I've been back, those other people haven't come back. Which is a real shame, in my opinion, as a forum like this one can only thrive in a positive way on the basis of diversity - not orthodoxy!)
I have to say, I regret now that I caved in back in October and did what I basically learned and resolved myself not to do: I avoided. And, following my own insights and reasoning, I am now at a point where I don't want to avoid any longer, which, I have to say, is made considerably easier by some people's hostile and manipulative reaction (including yours, JaneC). I will not back down this time!
The self-indulgence and strange sense of entitlement and possessiveness (as if I was pissing on someone's own personal patch) of some people on here hacks me off, which is the fuel for standing up for myself. And that is a good thing - so thanks for that. :winks:
I'm all for confrontation (which is a healthy thing - after all, how do we articulate what we think and feel and want? Expecting others to read our minds?) and debate, even if the debate is getting controversial and heated. No problems. But to be bullied and silenced NOT on the strength of someone's argument, but merely on the number of people who gang up on you in an attempt to ridicule and silence you cannot be called a debate or discussion. It is mob law! And personally I am finding this not only not very intelligent, but also not acceptable in the first place.
I think this is a real shame European, I think everyone's opinions should be allowed on here and you are entitled to say that you dont think meds work.
Good Luck with your future progress.
"I think this is a real shame European, I think everyone's opinions should be allowed on here and you are entitled to say that you dont think meds work.">Kells81
Thanks Kelly! You are the first person in all those months on here to actually not treat me as if I was the troll of all trolls. I appreciate it!
"Good Luck with your future progress.">Kells81
Thanks! And good luck with your progress as well.
ladybird64
14-01-11, 16:18
Are these the threads you are referring to?
http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83399
http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83496
As you raised the issue of October..
Ther initial thread was a perfectly reasonable discussion with some of the people you now regard as "bullies" and "cronies".
Thread 2.
You were bullied. Really? You pounced on a really nice guy who posted information that he thought might be helpful and by post 4 had actually become hostile in my opinion.
How on earth do you think someone feels when you basically accuse them of having and encouraging a "victim mentality"?. You may think the responses after that post were "totally disproportionate", I think they were not at all surprising given the circumstances.
I certainly do not want this discussion to degenerate as I believe debate and discussion is good but lets not start bandying accusations around without giving the whole picture.
"Are these the threads you are referring to?">ladybird64
Some of them, yes.
"You pounced on a really nice guy who posted information that he thought might be helpful and by post 4 had actually become hostile in my opinion.">ladybird64
I didn't "pounce" on a "really nice guy" - I wouldn't even think about judging a person I don't know from Adam, so "really nice guy" is entirely irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. And by the way, he didn't turn out to be all that nice at all as his first reaction was to fly off the handle, swear at me and call me all kinds of names, which got conveniently deleted by the moderator.
But I did have a go at some of the stuff he said, which was utterly undifferentiated, non-factual and irrational. There was no rhyme nor reason to it, and the misinformation about mood disorders being categorically inherent or endogenous, i.e. caused physically, is about as arbitrary a misinformation on par with causing untold misery to many people who believe this rubbish. The wrong and scientifically completely unfounded presumption that mood disorders are caused solely on a physical level has the mere effect of dis-empowering people, which in my view is abhorrent. It is about as destructive as one can get.
And I stand by what I said about "victim mentality" in this context - and am frankly amazed that you don't seem to be able (or willing?) to put 1 and 1 together in this context. How could I not be a victim if I have no power whatsoever over myself and the direction I'm heading, because it is basically caused by some force beyond my control? If that doesn't put me in the role of a victim (or indeed of someone shirking his personal responsibility), I honestly don't know what does....
The vast majority of research (well, correction: research that isn't directly or indirectly financed by the pharmaceutical industry, for obvious reasons!) points at the opposite direction: there are certain conditions, such as thyroid problems, that might be the exception, but in the vast majority of cases it is largely caused psychologically, and not physically.
By the way, did anybody see 'The Brain - A Secret History' on BBC 4 at all? In yesterday's episode about 'human emotions' it also stated without a doubt that fear is a conditioned, i.e. learned behaviour, and it can be unconditioned, i.e. unlearned. Which is a blessing, because this is potentially empowering.
For anybody interested look up the psychologist John B.Watson and the 'Little Albert' experiment, which might have been ethically questionable, but it was ground-breaking in the 'nurture' versus 'nature' debate, and pretty unequivocable up to this day.
Your arguments have been very thin on the ground, and all you and most of your cronies have done so far, LB and JaneC, in order to contribute to any debate or discussion, is basically saying: You are wrong because we *want* you to be wrong. And because we are many (at least on this forum) and you're on your own, we will be able to silence you.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make a particularly interesting or enlightening discussion, nor is it particularly to the point, not to mention fair.... Be that as it may, as I said above, I will not give in to these tactics this time around, but keep on speaking my mind in the direct, but not unreasonable way I've done so far. My conscience is clear.
"We've all tried different routes, some with success, some without success. I do think that many people with anxiety disorders feel guilt and shame - about lots of things.....letting other people down, not being able to 'hold it together', perhaps feeling like they are weak, not being normal.">Dahlia
I can totally empathise with this and have been there what seems for ever as well. But, and this is just my own personal experience, of course, I believe if there is to be any progress it can only come by taking responsibility for oneself and ask:
What do I actually think?
What do I actually feel?
What do I actually need?
What do I actually want?
As opposed to constantly bend over backwards in terms of trying to live up to anybody else's expectations and standards. This is almost like cutting an umbilical cord, and though it might be painful and difficult, we all have to do it some time because otherwise we will drive ourselves absolutely crazy.
"You have some great ideas about ownership and empowerment, but I think perhaps tonally it adds to or triggers that guilt and shame that people have, as the implication is that it's their fault in some way.">Dahlia
You see, this is what I don't accept. I am a hundred percent sure that anybody bringing up those issues would have this effect, merely by bringing it up, regardless of how the issues would be clad.
If you feel guilt or shame, then it is your guilt or shame, and only you can deal with it and work your way through and out of this guilt and shame. Merely blaming the person who has mentioned something that caused or triggered off these feelings of guilt or shame won't get you anywhere, as it certainly won't be dealing with those emotions, but hand the responsibility over to someone else. One doesn't have to be a prophet to predict that there is not going to be any progress in that.
"I think you have some interesting viewpoints - but sometimes it can feel quite attacking and belittling tonally.">Dahlia
Turn the thing around just for one moment, please, and put yourself in my shoes.
How would you feel being almost exclusively attacked and belittled, and yes, ganged up on and bullied at times, merely for addressing certain issues. Would you feel comfortable? Would you feel relaxed? Would you be able to keep your frustration and anger in check to such an extent that you'd entirely refrain from hitting back under the belt in the same way as you are receiving it? Would you allow yourself to fly off the handle in turn?
I'm sorry, but I have to say I'm quite amazed at my own integrity in terms of dealing with the situation at hand so far, without having given in to stooping to the same lows as some people on here.... And if my tone might be somewhat edgy at times, I'm really sorry, but that's the best I can manage in that particular moment. I'm only human!
Oh, more rubbish from you I see European. You know that you are SO narrow-minded in your dogmatic approach that you put a horse with blinkers to shame. You have convieniently by-passed and ignored numerous posts here where examples have been given re meds - the raison d'etre of this whole thread - because they don't fit in with the "theories" you nauseatingly continue to propagate. Yes, "theories" European, like the many other theories and approaches in psychology. There are also theories regarding chemical imbalances in the brain, but as no one to my knowledge has ever measured serotonin and other neurotransmitters in the brain, these remain theories.
So carry on trying to ram your theories down people's throats and see where it gets you (not very far methinks).
The only facts are that we suffer, struggle and cope with our problems in our own way, and your one-size-fits-all ideology fails miserably.
I have no cronies here but remember how many friends you "lost" when you had your "awakening"... Again, not self-pity but a real pity for you.
Oh and please refer to post #34 in future European.
You have the wit and intelligence of a slug :lac:
"Oh, more rubbish from you I see European.">Melancholia77
Ah, more under the belt personal, non-factual and irrational responses from you, I see, Melancholia.
Gosh, you sound defeated and bitter (and no, I'm not rejoicing in that....).
"Oh, more rubbish from you I see European.">Melancholia77
Ah, more under the belt personal, non-factual and irrational responses from you, I see, Melancholia.
Gosh, you sound defeated and bitter (and no, I'm not rejoicing in that....).
Oh is that all you could muster?
You have to wake up a lot earlier than that to play your games with me :D
I think European should save his breath for his porridge Dahlia.
ladybird64
14-01-11, 20:24
European.
I am more than willing to listen to what you have to say, as I have stated above.
I have disagreed with some of the things you have written both here and in your threads back in October.
That is it, I have made no attempt to bully you as you so eloquently put it.
What I will take issue with is that this is the second time (do correct me if I'm wrong please) that you have spoken of certain members and their cronies. You have now included me in that statement and in doing so have made a personal remark aimed at me.
I do not have "cronies" and I would appreciate it if you take that remark back or substantiate it. I am my own person, always have been and what I write are my own views.
If I do not agree with some of your views then I choose to write so here, what others do or say is completely independent of me and is their own choice.
I am not in the habit of making things personal and while I may disagree with your opinion, I would not target you on a personal level.
This thread is getting nasty and personal and if anymore personal insulting posts go up they will be removed and the poster will be banned from replying to the thread any further.
nomorepanic
14-01-11, 23:16
Please be nice people. We are all here with the same/similar issues.
Let's not fall out and get personal ok?
Will keep it civil, promise. I know you guys don't need this.
LB told me to hand out more sweeties :shrug:
Might I be permitted just to respond with just few things? (I'll try to limit it).
I have never bullied anyone in my life (well I would say that but the idea is actually laughable); I don't have cronies (although there are people who share my views in an unsolicited way), and I have NEVER tried to silence ANYBODY. However, if I disagree with someone's opinion, I may challenge it.
I'd also like to make it clear (again) that I have advocated medication as THE solution, and the only solution for anybody, or everybody (see post number 63). I've seen a psychologist, three psychiatrists, have done self-hypnosis and CBT, I see a naturopath and have a tidy accumulation of self-help books, a fair proportion of which are about CBT.
European, you were the one who brought up the subject of coverage of CBT on NMP and criticised what you see as the paucity of it ("almost criminally neglectful"). So while the CBT forum is not your responsibility, it's hardly fair to suddenly reappear and criticise others for not using it to your satisfaction. I have no wish to try to make you leave NMP by means of bullying or anything else, so please don't portray the situation as otherwise.
"However, if I disagree with someone's opinion, I may challenge it.">JaneC
And I have no problems with this. What I do have a problem with, is reducing everything on to a personal level, which includes bully tactics, ganging up on people merely on account of the numbers of people sharing your point of view, as opposed to the quality of the arguments, and finally this sneering, hateful tone, as if you were far too superior to piss on me if you should find me on fire. What do you know about me that would warrant such a reaction?
Challenge and engage with everything I say to your heart's desire, but please don't mix up my experiences and opinions with me as a person. Those are two entirely different entities, and after all, you don't know me.
"it's hardly fair to suddenly reappear and criticise others for not using it to your satisfaction.">JaneC
Why is it not fair for me to reappear?
And please don't put words in my mouth - I've never criticised anybody regarding the CBT forum, but merely criticised the general tenor of this website as a whole regarding CBT, which is largely very, very dismissive about it. This is not helpful at all.
Oh, and while I'm at it, I couldn't help noticing an article this morning when checking my e-mails. It seems that CBT techniques are hitting the mainstream. For anybody who is interested, I'll copy and paste the article (from the yahoo website) below:
"Writing down worries boosts performance
How to combat under-achievement due to anxiety and stress
Writing down your worries just before a stressful event like an exam or presentation can boost your performance, new research suggests. US researchers found that students who wrote about their fears for just 10 minutes before their exams significantly improved their scores compared with those who didn't write.
"Despite the fact that people are often motivated to perform their best, the pressure-filled situations in which important tests, presentations and matches occur can cause people to perform below their ability level instead," said professor Sian Beilock at the University of Chicago.
Previous work by the same researchers showed that high pressure situations can deplete part of the brain's processing power known as working memory.
Working memory is a sort of mental scratch pad that allows people to retrieve and use information relevant to the task at hand.
But when worries mount up, the working memory people normally use to succeed can become overburdened. This can sap the brain power necessary to excel.
In the study, 20 college students were given two short maths tests. On the first test, the students were told to do their best.
Before the second test, the students were told their work would be videotaped, assessed by maths teachers and they would be awarded money depending on their performance to put them under greater pressure.
Half of the students then received 10 minutes to write expressively about their feelings about the upcoming test (expressive writing group) and the other half was told to sit quietly (control group).
"The expressive writing group performed significantly better than the control group," the authors wrote in the journal Science.
"Control participants 'choked under pressure,' showing a 12 per cent accuracy drop from pre-test to post-test, whereas students who expressed their thoughts before the high-pressure test showed a significant five per cent math accuracy improvement."
The professor said the technique may also help with other high pressure situations."
"However, if I disagree with someone's opinion, I may challenge it.">JaneC
And I have no problems with this. What I do have a problem with, is reducing everything on to a personal level, which includes bully tactics, ganging up on people merely on account of the numbers of people sharing your point of view, as opposed to the quality of the arguments, and finally this sneering, hateful tone, as if you were far too superior to piss on me if you should find me on fire. What do you know about me that would warrant such a reaction?
Challenge and engage with everything I say to your heart's desire, but please don't mix up my experiences and opinions with me as a person. Those are two entirely different entities, and after all, you don't know me.
No, your style, mode of expression and content of what you write IS part of you. Are you saying that a different person wrote all this? It's about judging what you write and responding. You do the same.
"it's hardly fair to suddenly reappear and criticise others for not using it to your satisfaction.">JaneC
Why is it not fair for me to reappear?
And please don't put words in my mouth - I've never criticised anybody regarding the CBT forum, but merely criticised the general tenor of this website as a whole regarding CBT, which is largely very, very dismissive about it. This is not helpful at all.
No I don't agree that this forum is "dismissive" of CBT. Perhaps there isn't the emphasis on it that you would like but this is a reflection of the way doctors prescribe medication so readily and the often long wait for talking therapies like CBT, counselling etc. So what does the sufferer do in the meantime? How do they cope with not being able to work, pay bills, be a parent, wife or husband? You would be better off directing your energy writing to your MP and other relevant bodies in order to raise awareness regarding such issues.
Oh, and while I'm at it, I couldn't help noticing an article this morning when checking my e-mails. It seems that CBT techniques are hitting the mainstream. For anybody who is interested, I'll copy and paste the article (from the yahoo website) below: You come across like a desperate salesman trying to sell his wares. Usually what happens is that the customer runs a mile - even if they like the product.
I don't have any problem with CBT and the like. I think it should be more available and accessible rather than the easy option of doctors just prescribing a medication and sending the patient on their way. This is a reality that is happening and that's why like so many other forums people come here to exchange experiences.
This trend isn't restricted to NMP - it's a reflection of the medical profession.
"No I don't agree that this forum is "dismissive" of CBT. Perhaps there isn't the emphasis on it that you would like but this is a reflection of the way doctors prescribe medication so readily and the often long wait for talking therapies like CBT, counselling etc. So what does the sufferer do in the meantime? How do they cope with not being able to work, pay bills, be a parent, wife or husband? You would be better off directing your energy writing to your MP and other relevant bodies in order to raise awareness regarding such issues"
Well said Mel I've been waiting since June last year for some kind of therapy and I'm looking at about another 11 months at least.
Sue :)
... and finally this sneering, hateful tone, as if you were far too superior to piss on me if you should find me on fire.
Where on earth are you getting this from :huh:? In a non-sneering way (just to make it clear), I genuinely think you might want to re-read "Feeling Good - the New Mood Therapy" a book which you recommended to me.
"Jumping to conclusions (mind reading): assuming special knowledge of the intentions or thoughts of others."?
"Labelling"?
"No, your style, mode of expression and content of what you write IS part of you.">JaneC
It is part of me, yes, but it is not me. I can't change who I am, but I can change my opinions. There is a difference between the two!
"You come across like a desperate salesman trying to sell his wares. Usually what happens is that the customer runs a mile - even if they like the product.">JaneC
Compared with the general mood of dejection you are spreading, I can happily live with this.
"I don't have any problem with CBT and the like. I think it should be more available and accessible rather than the easy option of doctors just prescribing a medication and sending the patient on their way. This is a reality that is happening and that's why like so many other forums people come here to exchange experiences.">JaneC
You are right, on the one hand. But on the other hand there is no good reason why any of us should make ourselves totally and utterly dependent on our GP's and treat them like Gods.
General Practitioners are only human as well, and as such fallible. And there are quite a few things one can do apart from obediently taking every medication that a probably stressed and time pressured doctor prescribes.
"In a non-sneering way (just to make it clear), I genuinely think you might want to re-read "Feeling Good - the New Mood Therapy" a book which you recommended to me.
"Jumping to conclusions (mind reading): assuming special knowledge of the intentions or thoughts of others."?
"Labelling"?"
Nice try, JaneC, but I won't let you off that easily.
I am not projecting, and my misgivings regarding some people's hateful tone aren't just in my head as the cognitive distortions you are quoting, but they are very concrete, and very much in the real world.
So much so that others, including some moderators, have bee compelled to pick up on it and warn people to be more civil. Which isn't all in my head, now, is it? There's enough evidence on this thread, and I suppose anybody who reads this will be able to make up their own mind. And that's all I have to say on the matter.
"No, your style, mode of expression and content of what you write IS part of you.">JaneC
It is part of me, yes, but it is not me. I can't change who I am, but I can change my opinions. There is a difference between the two!
"You come across like a desperate salesman trying to sell his wares. Usually what happens is that the customer runs a mile - even if they like the product.">JaneC
Compared with the general mood of dejection you are spreading, I can happily live with this.
"I don't have any problem with CBT and the like. I think it should be more available and accessible rather than the easy option of doctors just prescribing a medication and sending the patient on their way. This is a reality that is happening and that's why like so many other forums people come here to exchange experiences.">JaneC
You are right, on the one hand. But on the other hand there is no good reason why any of us should make ourselves totally and utterly dependent on our GP's and treat them like Gods.
General Practitioners are only human as well, and as such fallible. And there are quite a few things one can do apart from obediently taking every medication that a probably stressed and time pressured doctor prescribes.
"In a non-sneering way (just to make it clear), I genuinely think you might want to re-read "Feeling Good - the New Mood Therapy" a book which you recommended to me.
"Jumping to conclusions (mind reading): assuming special knowledge of the intentions or thoughts of others."?
"Labelling"?"
Nice try, JaneC, but I won't let you off that easily.
I am not projecting, and my misgivings regarding some people's hateful tone aren't just in my head as the cognitive distortions you are quoting, but they are very concrete, and very much in the real world.
So much so that others, including some moderators, have bee compelled to pick up on it and warn people to be more civil. Which isn't all in my head, now, is it? There's enough evidence on this thread, and I suppose anybody who reads this will be able to make up their own mind. And that's all I have to say on the matter.
Why does JaneC get all the credit for my post European? You've been confusing cronies again :shrug:
No one is asking you to change your opinions. I don't have any desire to convert people to my way of thinking. However, I will make my case and the rest is up to the reader.
If you read my posts (I know there's a lot of them) you'll see that the LAST thing I'm "spreading" is "dejection".
Personally, I agree that we shouldn't make ourselves too dependent on doctors. I question everything my GP says. But unfortunately not everyone takes this view and they put all their faith in the doctor instead of taking responsibility themselves. But this is part of the illness anyway and creates a catch-22 scenario: the illness thrives on lack of responsibility. There must exist a deep insight into this in order to be free. The minute one takes responsibility for one's condition there is an immediate change. Not that one is suddenly cured but taking responsibility implies many positive factors that we won't go into here.
The rest of your comments DO refer to JaneC's post so will let her reply but yes people will make up their own minds after reading this thread - and I'm not too bothered what they think either.
My thoughts are my own, European.
mtatum4496
16-01-11, 17:06
I think medication has its place and purpose but if you rely on it soley to overcome panic/anxiety then you are putting far too much emphasis on its use and could end up very disappointed.
I find this to be true for me. But then, I am only one person. What works for me will not necessarily work for the next person.
There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Some people find that therapy of some sort, such as CBT, alone is sufficient to help them move through their issues and once again face life with some degree of emotional balance. Others find that medication helps them get through a rough patch and still cope with their responsibilities, eventually healing from the traumas and being able to taper off the medication. Others find a combination of the two is necessary to the task of regaining control of their lives. Who am I to say that one approach is better than the other?
IMO, there has been a fair amount of talking past each other in this thread that has led to emotionally charged responses that, while making valid points, could have been worded differently and caused less angst. Perhaps for the good of those who visit this forum looking for help, we could all step back a moment, allow tempers to cool, and think just a little bit longer before we respond?
Anxiety and depression can and do sometimes occur because of emotional traumas sustained, but at other times there is an underlying health issue that is at the root of the problem. An overactive or an underactive thyroid comes to mind off the top of my head. Medication to help the individual deal with the symptoms as well as manage the underlying health issue is sometimes the best way to go, if the individual wishes to have any quality of life. In this scenario, the value of therapy would be limited, unless medication was also used in the course of treatment.
Yes, medication can be addictive. But then, patients can also become emotionally dependent on their therapists. Does it automatically follow that either approach is inherently flawed? I don't believe so.
By all means, explore all possibilities for treating anxiety and depression. Why suffer when there is something out there that can ease the extreme emotions that those of us who have experienced panic attacks, phobias, and depression know so well? Be prudent in what is used and don't be afraid to speak up when something isn't working and try something else.
"But this is part of the illness anyway and creates a catch-22 scenario: the illness thrives on lack of responsibility. There must exist a deep insight into this in order to be free. The minute one takes responsibility for one's condition there is an immediate change. Not that one is suddenly cured but taking responsibility implies many positive factors that we won't go into here.">Melancholia77
Yes, yes, and yes! This is precisely what I've been saying time and time again - I don't quite understand why you built up such a hateful response towards me in this respect. Be that as it may, we seem to agree on something very crucial. Hallelujah!! :winks: Oh, and I think it would be a very positive thing to go into all the factors personal responsibility might imply. Most of us could only benefit from this.
"My thoughts are my own, European." >Melancholia77
And my thoughts are my own as well, Melancholia. However, I'd be more than happy to think it over if someone comes up with a good line of reasoning or some knowledge that has so far eluded me. And I might even adapt my own point of view accordingly. Because I can.
@mtatum4496: I agree pretty much with everything you are saying. The thing I have a problem with is that a lot of opinions and attitudes, which lead to some kind of action, are turning into a culture, even more so in a group environment, where everybody bows to the group dynamics and egg each other on in an irrational and detrimental way, depending where the wind is coming from.
I find this particularly the case with the issue of medication, maybe because medication is a bit of a lowest common denominator and can be used as a short-cut. What is sad, and ultimately self-defeating about this is the frequent lack of scepticism and questioning about one's motives. And particularly in a group environment with all its pressures this can be rather destructive and negative, depending on how glib and unreflected the general consensus might be. Again, it all comes down to personal responsibility.
I am trying to help myself, but at the moment I feel I need a boost. Not happy about it. I'm in constant pain from a congenital deformity and from an injury 25yrs ago. In that time I've lived, had children and all the normal stuff ...and all the black.
I am thinking of going back on meds.
mtatum4496
16-01-11, 18:21
...I find this particularly the case with the issue of medication, maybe because medication is a bit of a lowest common denominator and can be used as a short-cut. What is sad, and ultimately self-defeating about this is the frequent lack of scepticism and questioning about one's motives. And particularly in a group environment with all its pressures this can be rather destructive and negative, depending on how glib and unreflected the general consensus might be. Again, it all comes down to personal responsibility.
Without a doubt, various and sundry people have and will continue to utilize medication as a short-cut, ultimately being disappointed at the results (or the lack thereof). My personal experience with a number of folks over the years also informs me that various and sundry people have and will continue to go into therapy looking for a quick fix, with as little effort on their part as possible, and also end up being disappointed.
Hence my attitude that I cannot in good conscience refer to either medication or therapy as being inherently flawed or look upon either one as being a lowest common denominator. IMO it really boils down to the user and their expectations and level of commitment, not the tool.
It seems to me that we are in agreement on one key point - personal responsibility. Whatever strategies are used - be it medication alone, medication and therapy together, or therapy alone - individuals must own the process, educate themselves on the risks and the potential benefits, and make themselves accountable for their own recovery.
GPs and therapists are wonderful in many cases (although admittedly I had to go through a couple of doctors until I found one that wanted to do more than toss me some pills, pat me on the head, and dismiss me), but they do not live in my own skin and there is only so much they can do for me. MY progress over the last years has been due to working with my doctor as a team, not expecting him to wave a magic wand and make it all better. I simply see no other way to deal with my particular combination of anxiety/depression/panic, and make any real progress.
European, what I cant understand is why you seem so anti meds, and pro CBT ?
Apart from something you read on the internet ( therefore must be FACT lol ) about meds doing nothing, and being part of some global conspiracy by the pharmaceutical companies to con all us anx sufferers with a placebo ?
In the UK most people with anx will be offered CBT by their GP's, but the waiting lists are ridiculous ( up to 18 months in my area ), so what to do in the meantime ? suffer in silence ? face their fears ? read self help books ? - or maybe take something that DOES help an awful lot of people - even if it is just temporary and settles their moods enough to carry on with a reasonable quality of life ?
I do agree with you though that some people will try things as a short cut, be it meds or therapy, or are looking for an instant, no effort cure - which is rarely going to be effective.
Its never been a case of one treatment being right, and one being wrong, they are all just tools ( along with personal effort and acceptance ) that sufferers can get help from.
And yes, I have personal experience of meds, CBT and other forms of therapy, some of the meds didnt help ( fluoxetine did nothing for me ) and some did ( citalopram ) in the same way I didnt find CBT useful, but have found psycho therapy and counselling very useful.
[QUOTE=mtatum4496;782094]Without a doubt, various and sundry people have and will continue to utilize medication as a short-cut, ultimately being disappointed at the results (or the lack thereof). My personal experience with a number of folks over the years also informs me that various and sundry people have and will continue to go into therapy looking for a quick fix, with as little effort on their part as possible, and also end up being disappointed.
Yes, well put: if the patient expects the therapist to do all the work or wave a magic wand and dispel all their woes, then they will no doubt be disappointed as this again is not taking responsibility - the embodiment of the easy or quick fix.
Hence my attitude that I cannot in good conscience refer to either medication or therapy as being inherently flawed or look upon either one as being a lowest common denominator. IMO it really boils down to the user and their expectations and level of commitment, not the tool.
Viewed as a "tool", I fully agree: the carpenter cannot blame his poor workmanship on his tools. Both meds and non-meds therapy can thus fail a patient. They are not inherently flawed but we must also remember that people are not all the same and while responsibility must be taken, some forms of treatment simply may not gel with or suit a person as well as another form of treatment.
I don't see the problem with continuing meds as long as it is helping in some way and the person is working at getting better. As we said, viewing it as a tool and not a crutch is the vital difference. When a tool no longer serves a purpose we discard it. However, when we remove a crutch we invariably fall.
It seems to me that we are in agreement on one key point - personal responsibility. Whatever strategies are used - be it medication alone, medication and therapy together, or therapy alone - individuals must own the process, educate themselves on the risks and the potential benefits, and make themselves accountable for their own recovery.
Responsibility is the key issue here as it implies questioning, scepticism, searching, educating oneself, care and diligence.
GPs and therapists are wonderful in many cases (although admittedly I had to go through a couple of doctors until I found one that wanted to do more than toss me some pills, pat me on the head, and dismiss me), but they do not live in my own skin and there is only so much they can do for me. MY progress over the last years has been due to working with my doctor as a team, not expecting him to wave a magic wand and make it all better. I simply see no other way to deal with my particular combination of anxiety/depression/panic, and make any real progress.
I see it the same way and I've always said to my GP that we should work together as a team. Again, personal responsibility comes up here because without it we're at the mercy of another person's authority. However, there must be a balance. A doctor may know far more than me in terms of medicine but may not have the time to delve into the finer details of meds/therapies. He may also be biased - which many doctors unfortunately are - so all the more reason for me to take a second and third look at what he says.
I am trying to help myself, but at the moment I feel I need a boost. Not happy about it. I'm in constant pain from a congenital deformity and from an injury 25yrs ago. In that time I've lived, had children and all the normal stuff ...and all the black.
I am thinking of going back on meds.
And you've obviously achieved a lot KC. Have a chat with your doctor and discuss how you feel in depth. If you need a helping hand meds and/or therapy might help.
Doing nothing is the enemy.
Have you been using the fan lately? :whistles:
"When a tool no longer serves a purpose we discard it. However, when we remove a crutch we invariably fall.">Melancholia77
Very well put! I think this is what Dahlia meant when she differentiated between medication being used in an 'enabling' way or used as a 'crutch'. The moment of truth happens after taking the medication, and whether we stand or fall might be an indicator as to which of the two might have been prevalent. Ultimately, I should think this to be a very individual experience.
"Responsibility is the key issue here as it implies questioning, scepticism, searching, educating oneself, care and diligence.">Melancholia77
Again: Hallelujah!!
"Without a doubt, various and sundry people have and will continue to utilize medication as a short-cut, ultimately being disappointed at the results (or the lack thereof). My personal experience with a number of folks over the years also informs me that various and sundry people have and will continue to go into therapy looking for a quick fix, with as little effort on their part as possible, and also end up being disappointed.">mtatum4496
This might seem a fairly minor point, but I believe it might lead to something more major: For obvious reasons, I think the anxiety threshold in taking medication is considerably lower than in getting oneself involved into a therapy situation. Therapy, at least in my experience, entails much more shame, if not an open admission that something is wrong and that one does have a mental health problem (with all the prejudices attached to it).
Going to the GP and getting a prescription might circumvent this aspect, and thus probably even unwittingly encourage people not to face up to their problem but try and keep up appearances. Which will inevitably backfire.
Have you been using the fan lately? :whistles:[/QUOTE]
phew MM, yes, thanks for the loan :shades: got a bit hot under the collar :ohmy: x
mtatum4496
16-01-11, 20:49
This might seem a fairly minor point, but I believe it might lead to something more major: For obvious reasons, I think the anxiety threshold in taking medication is considerably lower than in getting oneself involved into a therapy situation. Therapy, at least in my experience, entails much more shame, if not an open admission that something is wrong and that one does have a mental health problem (with all the prejudices attached to it).
Going to the GP and getting a prescription might circumvent this aspect, and thus probably even unwittingly encourage people not to face up to their problem but try and keep up appearances. Which will inevitably backfire.
No doubt this is true for some people. Others, not so much. And I'm not sure that people in general place much of a distinction between taking meds and seeking a therapist - for some, either option will immediately smack of a severe mental problem or illness, regardless of the true circumstances. That, of course, conjures up images of crazy aunts locked in the attic who weep and wail all day long. Even among people who are well-educated, there has been and will probably always be a stigma when it comes to therapy or meds for anxiety, depression, and the whole lot.
And of course, some people will try to hide their treatment. They'll have therapy sessions on a lunch hour so as not to alert coworkers and loved ones, or make sure they keep the medication under lock and key so no one knows about it, quickly downing it when alone. That may work for a time, but at some point one has to own up to the fact they have a problem and are seeking help, even if it means enduring ignorant responses from folks who think therapy or meds are signs of weakness. .
I've had a lifelong aversion to taking prescription medication. In fact, I used to pride myself on being able to muddle through without it, no matter what the ailment. At the same time, seeking assistance from a counselor or therapist never bothered me one bit, and I have done so in the past when going through some sort of life crisis.
It was during my forties that I slowly began to realize that my approach had ultimately caused me more harm than good, and there was no shame in taking medication if it meant alleviating the pain and paving the way for a faster recovery. That realization came out of necessity, as I had to shed my shame and face the fact I needed help, and that it was perfectly okay to ask for that help. I still struggle with this, some days to my disadvantage, in that I delay taking my anxiety medication (prescribed on an as-needed basis) when there are indications that my agoraphobia is rearing its ugly head or that I'm on the fast track for a lulu of a panic attack.
bomberbeamish
16-01-11, 21:12
I cant remeber how many cbt courses i have started. And they have done nothen.. apart from confuse me. What ever people wanna do then do it, if ya wanna share it then do and no one has the right to put u down or give negative mindless feedback, if they do they have something very wrong with them and obviously very unhappy in there own lives.
I myself will take my happy pills when i like, i will knock my self out with diazipam when i need to, . Ive suffered for 13 years on and off. And now i except the good and bad days. I know ive conditioned myself , but its took 13 years todo it so it anit going over night nor another course of cbt or all the other therapy.
It was during my forties that I slowly began to realize that my approach had ultimately caused me more harm than good, and there was no shame in taking medication if it meant alleviating the pain and paving the way for a faster recovery. That realization came out of necessity, as I had to shed my shame and face the fact I needed help, and that it was perfectly okay to ask for that help. I still struggle with this, some days to my disadvantage, in that I delay taking my anxiety medication (prescribed on an as-needed basis) when there are indications that my agoraphobia is rearing its ugly head or that I'm on the fast track for a lulu of a panic attack.
Mtatum, I've really enjoyed reading your posts. After a brief brush with meds when I was 21, I didn't touch them again until I had PND for the second time at 33. Unfortunately, a series of things that have happened over the subsequent years have contributed to taking ADs being an ongoing thing for me. I'm not proud of that but sometimes I wonder if I would have benefited from being back on them at a much earlier stage. Who knows?
I also agree that certainly in my case there was very little difference in how I felt about taking meds or first going to see a psychiatrist - I didn't like the idea of either one bit because both made me feel like a failure. Sixteen years down the line, I generally worry less about what people think about either.
Good to hear your point of view xx
I cant remeber how many cbt courses i have started. And they have done nothen.. apart from confuse me. What ever people wanna do then do it, if ya wanna share it then do and no one has the right to put u down or give negative mindless feedback, if they do they have something very wrong with them and obviously very unhappy in there own lives.
I myself will take my happy pills when i like, i will knock my self out with diazipam when i need to, . Ive suffered for 13 years on and off. And now i except the good and bad days. I know ive conditioned myself , but its took 13 years todo it so it anit going over night nor another course of cbt or all the other therapy.
Bomber :hugs:. I'm sorry CBT didn't work for you, but unfortunately that's the way of it: it's great when it works but for some people it just doesn't. As has been said so many times on here, different strikes for different folks. You're absolutely right - we should all be able to get on with what works for us as individuals without being made to feel bad about it. We all have enough on our plates, after all x
nomorepanic
16-01-11, 23:33
OK well I wanted to add something else in here tonight.
When we talk about medication we all assume that we are talking about SSRI's (anti-depressants) but some of us are forced onto other medications that we don't really want to take but have no choice.:shrug:
Here is my current list:
Mercaptopurine 50mg
Lipitor (Atorvastatin) 80mg
Cardicor (Bisoprolol) 1.25mg
Ramipril 2.5mg
Aspirin 75mg
Furosemide 40mg
Spironolactone 25mg
I am not expecting people to know what these drugs are but let's just say they are keeping my heart stable (after a heart attack) and my Crohn's at bay!
Now I do not like being on these meds. :wacko:
I am constantly tired and "slowed down" which is deliberate as they need to keep the heart working at its best.
The Crohn's medication is a very "serious" drugs to be on and can give me complications in the future.
The thing is that these drugs are "keeping me alive and well".
When I say I am anti-medication I am purely saying that if I had a choice I would not be on anything but I have no choice.
I know that some people are going to say that they "need" to be on anti-depressants to keep them well and that is their choice but the drugs are not "keeping them alive" as such they are being used as temporary relief.
I cannot fix my heart and there is no cure for Crohn's so I am stuck with a future of drugs which I don't like but I would be very stupid to stop taking them and refuse to use them.
We all have choices with some medications but with others we don't.
I have to do other things to keep my heart healthy - exercise, diet, no stress etc and I cannot rely totally on the medication.
So what I am saying is that whilst on the meds you are on the please please do all you can to help yourself and get well again cos otherwise you are stuck on medication all your life and the side effects can be so so bad.
nomorepanic
16-01-11, 23:44
European - we are not anti CBT on here so not sure where you get that idea from.
Maybe you need to read the website pages on the left and see how much I promote it.
And of course, some people will try to hide their treatment. They'll have therapy sessions on a lunch hour so as not to alert coworkers and loved ones, or make sure they keep the medication under lock and key so no one knows about it, quickly downing it when alone. That may work for a time, but at some point one has to own up to the fact they have a problem and are seeking help, even if it means enduring ignorant responses from folks who think therapy or meds are signs of weakness. .
I've had a lifelong aversion to taking prescription medication. In fact, I used to pride myself on being able to muddle through without it, no matter what the ailment. At the same time, seeking assistance from a counselor or therapist never bothered me one bit, and I have done so in the past when going through some sort of life crisis. .
I did that - I told a school friend who laughed about me having to see a "shrink". I then decided not to tell anyone except my mum. I told my gran this summer, she got angry and told me never ever to tell anyone our private problems, they are personal business and doctors only mess with your head :shrug: ... Untrue I know.. Sadly a lot of people still see mental illness in a negative way and I think that's where problems start - I mean, a GP of mine said she wouldn't note down that I was self harming as she said "you don't want people to know that in the future do you?" ... ! Funnily enough two of my friends at uni know I am going through CBT, as does my mum - and they couldn't be more supportive. Holding back on meds, GP says she doesn't like the idea as I'm only 19 and they want me to try and tackle it on my own first.. if that makes sense..
bomberbeamish
17-01-11, 01:11
I agree with that daisy, i saw an old school friend not so long ago who u hadnt seen for around 15 years, they wanted me to visit them and i will admit i was ashamed to say i was agroaphobic, i was going to lie and say i didnt drive or summit but i thought this is me now. Anyway aftwr explaining this and addmitting i was under mental health, she replyed by saying ya not the old lucy then.. i said no as i was a wild child and popular .. she then said but u got children i said yes, she replyed so how come they anit took them off you then.... i was very upset how my friend who was very intelligent at the tine could have such ignorance.
Lucy, you are totally right about the meds, its up to the individual what they want to take, and what works for them -and really, unless someone has gone through other channels and is completely 'cured' then I dont think they can really say that the person is wrong for dealing with things in their way.
Really I would advocate trying and using as many things as you can, as long as it isnt hurting, then see if it works for you.
Also, I think far from being anti CBT, this website reflects the views and experience of its users - so if more people have had benefits from one treatment and not others, then its natural that this will be more discussed and more visible on the site.
OK well I wanted to add something else in here tonight.
When we talk about medication we all assume that we are talking about SSRI's (anti-depressants) but some of us are forced onto other medications that we don't really want to take but have no choice.:shrug:
Here is my current list:
Mercaptopurine 50mg
Lipitor (Atorvastatin) 80mg
Cardicor (Bisoprolol) 1.25mg
Ramipril 2.5mg
Aspirin 75mg
Furosemide 40mg
Spironolactone 25mg
I am not expecting people to know what these drugs are but let's just say they are keeping my heart stable (after a heart attack) and my Crohn's at bay!
Now I do not like being on these meds. :wacko:
I am constantly tired and "slowed down" which is deliberate as they need to keep the heart working at its best.
The Crohn's medication is a very "serious" drugs to be on and can give me complications in the future.
The thing is that these drugs are "keeping me alive and well".
When I say I am anti-medication I am purely saying that if I had a choice I would not be on anything but I have no choice.
I know that some people are going to say that they "need" to be on anti-depressants to keep them well and that is their choice but the drugs are not "keeping them alive" as such they are being used as temporary relief.
I cannot fix my heart and there is no cure for Crohn's so I am stuck with a future of drugs which I don't like but I would be very stupid to stop taking them and refuse to use them.
We all have choices with some medications but with others we don't.
I have to do other things to keep my heart healthy - exercise, diet, no stress etc and I cannot rely totally on the medication.
So what I am saying is that whilst on the meds you are on the please please do all you can to help yourself and get well again cos otherwise you are stuck on medication all your life and the side effects can be so so bad.
Nic, I've thought a lot about your post overnight. I'm really sorry that you have the health problems you do and understand why you might feel the way you do about meds but I still believe that just as there are people who need medication to stay physically well, there are those who need medication to stay mentally well, too.
I fully understand where you're coming from Nic but in some cases people do need meds to stay mentally well as I think it's a balance between environmental factors that we can change and, I believe, far deeper-rooted biological ones (perhaps even genetic ones as mental illness can run in families).
Also someone that is mentally unwell can endanger their physical health, as we commonly see with SH and suicide bids.
"We all have choices with some medications but with others we don't." >nomorepanic
I'm really sorry to hear about your health problems, Nicola! On the other hand I think you've hit the nail on the head, in that there is a distinction between a physical ailment, which doesn't give one a choice in terms of whether to take medication or not, and a psychological disorder, which is not endogenous, i.e. has no roots in a physical sense, but is acquired and learned behaviour, which can be unlearned again. Those are two very different things!
There are of course mental health issues that ARE endogenous, i.e. physically rooted, such as disorders on the psychotic spectrum, e.g. schizophrenia, and also manic depression, which means that people would be well advised to take medication in order to cope with their lives and in order not to get completely off the rails. But it is important - vitally important! - not to throw all mental health issues together and mix them up.
Some differentiation goes a long way, and there is nothing to suggest (apart from a few people who merely WANT this to be the case for their own reasons) that disorders such as anxiety, OCD or reactive depression are in any way physiologically rooted. They are not! There is no reliable research that would corroborate endogenous causes in this respect, and most health professionals accept this.
"we are not anti CBT on here so not sure where you get that idea from." >nomorepanic
I didn't mean you personally, Nicola. You've never failed to make your point of view in this respect known, and I appreciate this!
But there are a lot of people on here, who are very dismissive of CBT and waste no time to make their negative views known. I don't know how often I read the standard sentence on thread after thread after thread: "I tried CBT and it didn't do anything for me....". And it's not just once that I came across somebody due to start their first CBT sessions reacting to this saying: "Oh, if it hasn't worked for the lot of you, it won't work for me either".
Which is something I find deplorable and totally counter productive and the opposite of what - I suppose - this website was designed to do.
bomberbeamish
17-01-11, 13:14
not everyone is againt cbt some its works for some it dosent, it dont bother me it didnt work so thats that.
but looking on here to try and get a positive reaction from something you want to try is like googling side effects which we all know is a big NO NO. THIS SITE STATES IN MANY PLACES FROM PEOPLE TO LEAVE THEY EXPIRENCES GOOD OR BAD. which means you have a choice to read it or not, and if reading it take it with a pinch of salt.
Also people that say they are trying cbt i aways wish them luck like many others on here and if ask have i tried it , i will be honest and say yes with no sucess but it works wonders for some.
[QUOTE=European;782575]...On the other hand I think you've hit the nail on the head, in that there is a distinction between a physical ailment, which doesn't give one a choice in terms of whether to take medication or not, and a psychological disorder, which is not endogenous, i.e. has no roots in a physical sense, but is acquired and learned behaviour, which can be unlearned again. Those are two very different things!
Up to here I agree with you.
There are of course mental health issues that ARE endogenous, i.e. physically rooted, such as disorders on the psychotic spectrum, e.g. schizophrenia, and also manic depression, which means that people would be well advised to take medication in order to cope with their lives and in order not to get completely off the rails. But it is important - vitally important! - not to throw all mental health issues together and mix them up.
Here you're being very categorical in defining "endogenous". We cannot measure such things in the lab. Such labels are theoretical as we can only measure by means of observing someone's behaviour. I don't like all this labelling and compartmentalisation. If someone is suffering from extreme anxiety whereby they cannot function (ie maintain themselves), or they are suicidally depressed, an intervention must be made, whether it be hospitalisation, medication or talking therapies. When someone is not able to function normally however, talking therapies usually come later down the line.
I don't agree that what you term as "endogenous" (a word I don't like anyway) can be defined so simplistically as "disorders on the psychotic spectrum" and "manic depression". I think it can apply to all types of severe mood disorders.
Some differentiation goes a long way, and there is nothing to suggest (apart from a few people who merely WANT this to be the case for their own reasons) that disorders such as anxiety, OCD or reactive depression are in any way physiologically rooted. They are not! There is no reliable research that would corroborate endogenous causes in this respect, and most health professionals accept this.
Again, we cannot measure whether certain types of behavioural disorders like OCD, GAD or reactive depression ARE rooted in anything other than the psychological sense. Perhaps they are and can therefore be treated directly with CBT, self-help etc by taking personal responsibility for one's recovery. Again the important factor is the severity of mental illness that shows itself in someone's behaviour.
not everyone is againt cbt some its works for some it dosent, it dont bother me it didnt work so thats that.
but looking on here to try and get a positive reaction from something you want to try is like googling side effects which we all know is a big NO NO. THIS SITE STATES IN MANY PLACES FROM PEOPLE TO LEAVE THEY EXPIRENCES GOOD OR BAD. which means you have a choice to read it or not, and if reading it take it with a pinch of salt.
Also people that say they are trying cbt i aways wish them luck like many others on here and if ask have i tried it , i will be honest and say yes with no sucess but it works wonders for some.
It's again whatever works for you Bomber. No one is judging. We can't waste our lives with therapies that don't help or make us worse, so we have to look at alternative options, and meds is one of them.
"We cannot measure such things in the lab.">Melancholia77
Oh yes, we can. And scientists all over the world are doing exactly this. And, apart from a very few exceptions, such as thyroid problems, there hasn't been any serious indication or hard evidence so far that mood disorders are indeed endogenous, i.e. the result of some kind of physical malfunction. There is even serious doubt whether antidepressants, for example, are actually working beyond their placebo effect.
I repeat: Mood disorders are conditioned, i.e. learned behaviour, and can as such be unlearned. This requires some openness, input and hard work, however, and without intending to make anybody feel guilty, I think that's where the actual problem lies, in that there are many people out there not open and willing to put the effort in, but instead looking for a quick fix in some kind of medication. Which, sadly, it isn't, at least not in the long run.
Everybody wants to get better, and at the same time everybody (and I don't exclude myself in this!) struggles with implementing some changes. Unfortunately, 'getting better' and 'change' are inextricably connected, which means that one isn't likely to happen without the other. That's a reality we all have to face up to.
Of course the medical profession has its own role to play in all this, often irresponsibly so, on the basis of not having the necessary time for their patients, or worse, they were on the pay-list of pharmaceutical companies, whom, up to a couple of years ago at least here in the UK, weren't outlawed from 'swaying' doctors to use their products in their surgeries in return for all kinds of perks, including substantial amounts of money and even paid holidays.
There are reasons why far too much medication is being prescribed, I mean, look at the situation with antibiotics, for example, which people take as if they were smarties, with the effect that the efficiency of the treatment is broadly waning and thus bringing illnesses that were thought as under control, such as tuberculosis, back with a vengeance.
Anxious_gal
17-01-11, 18:51
i think if someones says CBT hasn't worked for them they are just being honest, but theres a lot of other factors involved like how good was the therapist, did the person put enough work in etc.......
Anxious_gal
17-01-11, 19:06
you know theres a lot of research, well facts if you look up any antidepressant clinical trial PDF.
that antidepressants only work a teeny tiny bit better than placebos on people with moderate depression.
but the antidepressants work much better than the placebos on people with sever/very bad depression.
theres new evidence to suggest than placebos can still help even if the person is told it's a placebo.
[QUOTE=European;782775]"We cannot measure such things in the lab.">Melancholia77
Oh yes, we can. And scientists all over the world are doing exactly this. And, apart from a very few exceptions, such as thyroid problems, there hasn't been any serious indication or hard evidence so far that mood disorders are indeed endogenous, i.e. the result of some kind of physical malfunction. There is even serious doubt whether antidepressants, for example, are actually working beyond their placebo effect.
This is a very biased outlook. There is no firm evidence or proof validating one or the other and it depends on the interests of the groups carrying out such experiments anyway. Big Pharma will come to completely different conclusions to say anti-psychiatry groups like Scientology.
Powerful drugs like morphine are also said to owe a large part of their efficacy to the placebo effect.
I repeat: Mood disorders are conditioned, i.e. learned behaviour, and can as such be unlearned. This requires some openness, input and hard work, however, and without intending to make anybody feel guilty, I think that's where the actual problem lies, in that there are many people out there not open and willing to put the effort in, but instead looking for a quick fix in some kind of medication. Which, sadly, it isn't, at least not in the long run.
Everybody wants to get better, and at the same time everybody (and I don't exclude myself in this!) struggles with implementing some changes. Unfortunately, 'getting better' and 'change' are inextricably connected, which means that one isn't likely to happen without the other. That's a reality we all have to face up to.
Of course the medical profession has its own role to play in all this, often irresponsibly so, on the basis of not having the necessary time for their patients, or worse, they were on the pay-list of pharmaceutical companies, whom, up to a couple of years ago at least here in the UK, weren't outlawed from 'swaying' doctors to use their products in their surgeries in return for all kinds of perks, including substantial amounts of money and even paid holidays.
There are reasons why far too much medication is being prescribed, I mean, look at the situation with antibiotics, for example, which people take as if they were smarties, with the effect that the efficiency of the treatment is broadly waning and thus bringing illnesses that were thought as under control, such as tuberculosis, back with a vengeance.
We've already covered "personal responsibility" and I believe most people know all this. Putting it into action is another matter.
As for Big Pharma, you're entering into politics and I don't want to be drawn into that. People should do their own research.
Anxious_gal
17-01-11, 19:19
you can't judge and make assumptions about anyone unless you have walked in their shoes. it's imposable on so many levels for anyone to truly understand another persons experience of living.
sure we can make observations but we cannot assume.
we should not preach, we should not force our views on others, we should not assume we are right, we should accept that people will do what needs to be done when they are ready.
"i think if someones says CBT hasn't worked for them they are just being honest, but theres a lot of other factors involved like how good was the therapist, did the person put enough work in etc.......">mishelYes, it's those "other factors" that I'm interested in, as I believe there to be much more than meets the eye - or probably even our consciousness, for that matter.
"antidepressants only work a teeny tiny bit better than placebos on people with moderate depression.
but the antidepressants work much better than the placebos on people with sever/very bad depression.
theres new evidence to suggest than placebos can still help even if the person is told it's a placebo.">mishel
I believe this to be true.
"Powerful drugs like morphine are also said to owe a large part of their efficacy to the placebo effect.">Melancholia77
If you've ever been on morphine you wouldn't say that. :winks:
"As for Big Pharma, you're entering into politics and I don't want to be drawn into that. People should do their own research." >Melancholia77
But wouldn't this be a bit of a missed opportunity? I mean, why have a forum if we are categorically not talking about certain aspects of what this forum is supposed to help with?
Of course politics come into the issue of mood disorders. In a massive way! There is no way of getting away from the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is following its own interests, which is largely making a lot of money. This is a billion dollar business worldwide! Of course this has an impact on the way we perceive medication - how could it not?
Of course politics come into the issue of mood disorders. In a massive way! There is no way of getting away from the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is following its own interests, which is largely making a lot of money. This is a billion dollar business worldwide! Of course this has an impact on the way we perceive medication - how could it not?
Nicola can answer the question of whether she wants politics being discussed on this site.
"Nicola can answer the question of whether she wants politics being discussed on this site.">Melancholia77
Wow - doesn't she? Maybe this is a really stupid question, but: Why not?
When we say politics shouldn't be discussed we actually mean the Tories, Labour sort of politics.
di.
Dragonsblonde
17-01-11, 22:57
I have to admit I have been reading this thread all along, yet have not really felt brave enough to get involved in the "passionate" points of views.
I always find it interesting when people discuss things that are obviously very personal as of course our impressions, feelings and points of view have been formed by the experiences of ourselves and people close to us.
I think I can talk logically about just coping and ignoring, medication and Therapy - since I have done all three over the past four years. I spent a long time in what on here seems to be called "denial", however until I actually broke down completely this year I had no idea I was ill. It is a form of denial I suppose, but I had to keep going as the only carer for ill elderly parents, a niece and nephew and holding a full time job. Then life changed, things got calmer and I had a breakdown.
I am an independant and intelligent person who researched everything about anxiety. I am married to a clinical nurse and have friends who have suffered with anxiety and depression. After looking at options my situation my unacceptable to me, the wait for therapy was too long and I wasn't prepared to take sick leave from work or spend my days cowering in a fear I did not yet have the skills to control.
So I chose medication, which I have been on since June. In that time I have completed a course of CBT which I found to be useful in some areas and not in others, I certainly do not think it is the cure for all people with anxiety and depression. Many of the techniques do not apply to me as I have no issue with self image, or self worth or the opinions of others. I have been lucky enough to take part in some Self Centred Talking Therapy through my job. I have also quit caffeine, alcohol and most recently smoking. Am currently on a diet and trying to change the way I eat.
I personally would not have achieved all those things this year or had the confidence to face my fears without the medication. I do agree that you must try to work through things where you can and that medication is not the cure, the cure is inside us. However when in the depths of anxiety all I wanted and needed was the peace and space that medication provided.
I am neither ashamed nor regret my decision to take medication, it has helped me. I am now stronger going into the future from this point that I have ever been. I also believe that medication alone would not have got me to this point and that the other work I have done with the medictaion was my personal journey upwards.
I would neither recommend this route nor condemn it, we all make our own journey in our own time. Without the understanding and support of people on here and in my life who have experience in this I would have found it much harder.
Dahlia, I think you are right - unless the problem is situational, i.e. depression bought on by a specific event, which time helps to cure, then I dont actually think there is a cure for anxiety.
To me the answer is learning to live with the problems, and minimising them to the point where they dont really effect your life anymore than say having a week off with a cold would for a 'normal person' - the odd bad anx episode a couple of times a year isnt really any major problem if you are able to live and function the rest of the time as you want.
Since having anx, I have found out it is pretty common on my mums side of the family, and a lot of my older relatives suffered with 'nerves' as it was termed back then, and also a couple of male relatives who had shell shock from WW1 - so maybe its just something that was always inside me, and just took a while to come out ?
In many ways I would rather have anxiety than a physical problem that had much more of an impact on my life. I am fortunate in some ways that if I am having a bad day and dont want to go out or see people, then I dont have to, but being honest, there arent that many things I would really want to do that I dont feel able to at the moment.
"See the way I see it is - meds don't cure, they allieve. CBT therapies give ways of coping with it, tackling it, changing your perceptions of it - but people still get anxious at times, they just handle it differently. Same with relaxation techniques.">Dahlia
Hey Dahlia!
But isn't anxiety just part of what it means to be human? Doesn't it fulfil a vital function as well, in that it protects and guides us through our lives? Don't so called 'normal' people get anxious as well, even irrationally so at times? And finally: Is anxiety really as abjectly negative as we are painting it here? Would it really necessary to totally eradicate it from our lives?
I can't help thinking all this abject negativity that we project onto anxiety is merely a sign that we have not yet learned to accept it and come to terms with it. And it's this lack of acceptance that is at the heart of the problem, i.e. causing most of the anxiety in the first place. Just a thought.
"As far as I can see, for me, I was born with a predisposition towards anxiety" >Dahlia
Yes, same here. Not a predisposition, but merely a susceptibility on the basis of being exceptionally sensitive.
And we might not remember it, but fear is a conditioned behaviour. It is learned. And this doesn't require all kind of extremes, such as abuse or neglect or whatever, but merely an overprotective attitude on part of the parents, who probably meant just a tad too well.
If you're overprotected, you are not allowed to suffer, not allowed to make mistakes - but how is anybody to learn and progress in a well adjusted manner without making mistakes? The mere reaction of the parents on account of the slightest thing going wrong, the slightest mistake made by the child, will have an impact on the child's attitude. Words won't even be necessary in this. And when the parents are anxious that nothing ever should go wrong with the child, that the child never makes any mistakes and comes to suffer in even the most minute way, chances are the child will be anxious as well. And it will learn to avoid, in order to make its parent's happy. This is how we learn to be anxious.
Don't take my word for it. Here's a link to BBC i-player for the programme I mentioned in an earlier post: The brain - a secret history (part 2 - emotions).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xccs9
Have a look at the experiment by John B Watson with "Little Albert", and how poor little Albert is being conditioned to fear (in a way, that it would be impossible to condition someone into psychosis or schizophrenia, by the way!).
It is virtually written into the infant's face, when the fluffy bunny rabbit all of a sudden becomes an object of fear, when, after playing with it happily for the first part of the experiment, in the second part there is a very loud and unpleasant noise thrown into the equation.
This was enough for the child to associate the horrible noise with the formerly loved bunny rabbit, and recoil from it in terror henceforth. I think this makes it shockingly obvious how easy it is to condition anxiety and fear.
But because fear is a conditioned and learned behaviour, this means that it can be unlearned as well. Probably not quite as easily as it was acquired, but still. There is no proneness, and nobody will have to suffer anxiety for the rest of their lives!
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