View Full Version : Second Dawn: coming off citalopram
Hi all, merry christmas and a happy new year to everyone. I thought I'd rejoin the NMP gang to let you know what's been going off with my battle against anxiety.
Basically, I have now held a job for 6 months, I've got that sports car I always wanted and I'm starting to get somewhere in life. Granted, I hate my job and my sports car is knackered, and if I had my tarot read they would draw the Tower card five times in a row, but that's no reason to sulk.
I've decided that I am gonna reduce my dose of citalopram with a view to coming off the stuff altogether. This is day 2 on 20mg (down from 30mg). Last night I had a horrific dream so my body is obviously aware of the change. Other than that everything's ok.
I am sick of always being tired. I sometimes have early starts at work and trying to drag myself out of bed earlier than 11am is a serious chore. Apart from that I'm receiving cut-price therapy courtesy of Anxiety UK, and everything else in life seems to be ok at the moment.
I'm having a course of regression hypnotherapy starting soon which will help me go through my life from beginning to present in order to smooth over some bad memories and build some self esteem.
I'm hoping this will give me some stronger foundations in order to get through life without medication.
Well anyway I will let people know how it goes and I'll no doubt be adding this to my Citalopram Guide some time soon!
Take care!
Good luck Adam, will be interested to hear how it goes xx
ooh, I feel a bit like I'm talking to a celeb - I have read your guide countless times since I started on Cit. 2.5 months ago (most recently today because I'm on day 4 of a blip), and it has been endlessly helpful. Thank you so much and good luck with bringing your relationship with Citalopram to an end, I'll watch with interest!
bluejeans17
14-01-11, 15:41
Good for you PsychoPoet! I think we went on the Cit around the same time - I remember the posts well and how they helped get me through the rough days! Glad to say I started my reduction last week - just from 20mg down to 15mg. I am taking it slowly but happy to report no withdrawal systems! I will give it another couple of weeks and cut down to 10 mgs. Hope it goes well and look forward to the day we are Cit free!
BJ
Hi everyone, thanks for the messages! It feels like the end of an era by reducing my dose of cit. There were times when I felt I would be trapped on it forever.
It's now day 6 of my reduced dose. There has been a bit of messing about as I ran out of cit, so I took 10mg on Sat night and nothing at all last night. I am aware this contradicts my own Survival Guide and I have had bad effects from reducing cit before.
On the other hand, I can rationalise it by using it as a chance to test my emotional strength, cos if I can't deal with a few discontinuation effects, how the hell am I going to cope with the rest of my life?
So, here is a list of the horrible and painful discontinuation symptoms I have experienced by reducing my dose:
Nothing.
That's right. I have had no serious or intolerable side effects at all. Do you know what the worst part about dropping my dose has been?
The initial anxiety that I would have symptoms or a relapse!
That anxiety started to die away by the third or fourth day, when it became increasingly obvious I was not going to suffer as expected.
The only thing I had to fear was fear itself!
So what effects have I noticed? Well, I am slightly less tired in the mornings. I've got a growing, but tolerable, sense of disorientation if I move my head too fast, and I feel a pressing in my temples. All of these effects are the same as I used to get when I messed with my dose.
However, none of the effects are as bad as they were before, and I am already on day 6 of the dose reduction. In days gone by I would only last 3-5 days before I started to feel ill and scared.
I know somehow, within my heart, that this is the right time not only to reduce my citalopram dose, but come off it altogether. I am too strong and too experienced to fall back into the old ways, even though there may be blips and bad weeks along the way.
So from tonight I am going to be taking just 10mg per day. By this time next month I will be looking to come off the stuff altogether provided nothing bad happens.
It's not all easy street: I have noticed my temper flaring up, but that is probably because I have worked long hours recently and a colleague has been annoying me a lot - I tend not to say anything to people until I'm ready to explode into a rage, and I have managed to keep this under control.
I joined Anxiety UK and am now arranging telephone-based counselling with their therapists at £20 per session. (They also do CBT and hypnosis, the latter on a face-to-face basis, along with neuro-linguistic programming and other therapies, all of which are available at reduced prices to members.)
In the meantime I am also arranging a series of sessions with a current-life regression therapist, who is going to use hypnosis to help me rebuild my life and unlock memories that have long since been buried, so that I can remember them in a positive and life-affirming way.
This will lead into confidence and assertiveness building in later sessions.
So it's all going better than expected, and I'll keep reporting back.
Good luck to you, your guide has helped me so much so thank you for that. xx
Thank you :) That's good to hear!
I thought that I should point out I have been taking around 6g of inositol when I remember to, which might be blunting any feelings of anxiety that might have been kicked up by reducing my dose, and I'd be lying if I didn't say the extra energy I've had lately is not nervous energy. The sensation of almost dizziness is annoying on the odd occasion but is nothing I can't handle.
I was sweating a lot this afternoon but that stopped after a couple of hours and I was fine after. Increased sweating is a major sign of discontinuation. The sweating hasn't started again.
On the whole things are going vastly better than expected.
I'm having to tell my team leader about coming off citalopram tomorrow - the reason being, a colleague is annoying me at work and with my increased readiness to fly off the handle (a feeling which only comes about when I'm being provoked), I am scared that I might lose my rag with this person. Also if I do get any noticeable side effects I need someone who will understand.
I'll tell you all about my annoying colleague later but for now, suffice it to say he's being a prat!
Hi all, I have only taken a total of 20mg in the last 6 days and apart from a sense of dizziness and slight unreality (and increased stress, which might just be a response to my current situation), there are no worrying or intolerable side effects at all. My hypnotherapy starts next Saturday so hopefully that will give me an extra weapon to win this war.
My team leader STILL hasn't seen me yet - I have a number of things (not anxiety-related) that I need to make her aware of, and I have mentioned that I am coming off some tablets which may cause some side effects, but she is very busy and she keeps putting off seeing me - this is typical of her, and it's apparently tough if any of the things I'm dealing with affect my work. The only time she does seem to come to me is when I'm on the phone to a customer and cannot speak! If she was like this with just me I'd be really annoyed, but she's like it with everyone.
In other news I am taking a car dealership to court and this, along with a lot of financial worries, is getting to me a bit. There is five grand at stake here and I have already had a number of warnings that dodgy car dealerships can get away with any trick they want, even declaring themselves bankrupt, just to get out of paying what they owe.
The colleague at work who's been annoying me is constantly challenging and criticising my work rate, even though he is under investigation and on a warning for call avoidance himself. I have raised it with the management as he seems to be trying to influence people into thinking I never do any work. Bear in mind that my stats and my customer feedback are always better than his (often massively so).
While I'm coming off the cit, working crap hours, worrying about money and stressing about my court claim, the last thing I need is some 19 year old brat (yep, he's nearly half my age) going on at me about stuff that is none of his bloody business.
Ah well, at least when the court case is resolved one way or another, I can get rid of this shitty Impreza and buy a real car.
"Dee twelve in the Si-ko Pooet hoose, and Si-ko Pooet is feelin the burn."
Well it's been nearly two weeks and while the side effects are still tolerable, it is starting to grind me down somewhat when you consider it's been happening for two weeks on the trot.
The dizziness seemed to reach its peak over the last couple of days - it feels like when you're so shattered you practically fall asleep, and it reduces my energy and makes me dizzy and weak while walking around at work.
My friend and I also got mild food poisoning on Saturday - from a cheesecake. So that hasn't helped. I feel pretty bad today but work won't help me out because I've got no holidays left until my allowance resets on the 1st of February, and they won't give me a day's unpaid leave, so I would have to bugger up my stats to have a sick day.
I'm doing exceptionally well at work, it's the best I've ever performed anywhere, which is quite impressive when you factor in what I'm going through.
As for any advice, lessons learned etc, I would say this: definitely don't stop taking cit altogether - while I haven't had any anxiety attacks or any kind of relapse, the physical symptoms are taking their toll over a prolonged period, so it's obviously not ideal for people who have got a lot on their mind or who are dealing with a tough job.
Hi everyone, a month has passed and I'm still off the citalopram.
While there have been some good points, there has been a lot of bad. I've had more work to do towards my recovery over the last 6 weeks (is that all it's been?) than I have in the last 12 months.
I have had two major blips, including one last night, where I had a terrible night's sleep thanks to a nasty anxiety attack. It has been a while since I felt like that. I came over a bit breathless then I found all my thoughts were dark.
Now when I say "dark" I don't mean suicide or violence or anything - I mean that everything I thought about seemed bleak and depressing, which made me feel a lot worse and my anxiety went through the roof.
I wonder how many other people who say their thoughts are "dark" are actually misinterpreting things, like I realise I was. Are your thoughts really just taking a negative turn - influenced by your current mood - or are you actually thinking about seriously going ahead with self-harm or worse?
I'm willing to bet lots of us simply think negatively about our lives and events within and have no actual intent to self-harm.
Also, I can half-understand why people might contemplate suicide or self-harm -- they see it as a release from the constant bad feeling. It's the thought of carrying on feeling like this that is the catalyst for self-harm or suicide... so maybe self-harm and suicide rates would drop if people were able to seek appropriate support and act on the positive advice they receive?
As many of us will know, it's the thought that you're going to wake up in the morning still feeling anxious and distressed that does the most damage... when in reality, we might actually feel a bit BETTER in the morning after a night's rest, ESPECIALLY when we're up and doing something.
In general my temper is dying down but I'm often melancholy and I get stressed very easily, far more easily than normal. It has not been easy at all: I keep reminding myself of everything I've been through and I remember that inositol is my friend!
Hi if anyone is reading this!!
I am considering biting the bullet and going back onto citalopram.
I am still having a blip with no signs of breaking free. The occasional moments of relief always seem to be spoiled by my chatterbox, and I am experiencing nausea and heartburn as well, so when I do start feeling more positive, the sick feeling in my stomach sparks the anxiety off again. I also feel a bit "hungover" which is probably because I've started sleeping in a bit while listening to hypnotherapy mp3s - this always seems to zonk me.
This blip shows me that even though I felt ready to come off the cit, a combination of things happening in my life at the minute means I'm possibly not strong enough to cope on my own. There's probably no way to know whether things would be different if I'd tapered my dose instead of simply dropping it altogether.
My counselling should start hopefully within 2 weeks. If I'm feeling no better by then I will look at going back on to the citalopram.
I'm just wondering if anyone can give me some support or reassurance? I am still quite anxious and I have now arranged hypnotherapy for this Saturday morning - and the hypnotherapist doesn't even work Saturdays. She's doing this as a favour to me.
She said to see if I could get by without the citalopram until my counselling has started, which looks like it will be next week - what do people think? Please help.
Hi mate, I know how horrible your feeling, its been 4 months since i stopped and after going back to the doctors yesterday she said im still suffering with discontinuation Syndrome which i thinks is a load of crap! I Do take Propranolol when my anxiety is high and it does reduce my symptoms and calm me down its just that voice in my head that keeps the cycle going. She did say to me yesterday to go back on the Cit but im trying my best not to because iv come so far i think its the easy way for the doctor its less effort for them and i also think they dont know enough on it all. Hang in there mate.
allergyphobia
08-03-11, 09:53
Hi Psycho - the man, the legend!
I can't give you too much advice as I haven't been on meds.
So this may not be advice you agree with, it's only my interpretation...
But i get the impression you are using the cit as a safety blanket. You think now the meds aren't in your system then you can't be strong. But that isn't true. You just feel as though one of your support systems has gone - but you can put new ones in place, to make you feel stronger - hypnotherapy, counselling, your mp3s and also, coming on here and talking about how you are feeling.
Sorry if i've offended you, like I say I haven't taken meds so can't imagine the physical effect they have. But I still believe you are the one that has done the hard work - not them - to get yourself to the point where you wanted to come off them.
That decision took strength and courage - and that doesn't come in a packet.
Look forward to Saturday. Until then, be kind to yourself. Chat to people on here, go for some fresh air, watch some old movies, whatever it is you like - you need a little comforting right now and there is no shame in that
:hugs:
Hi everyone - THANK YOU, this is just what I needed :)
Mike - I have considered asking for anti-anxiety medication or even going back on the cit but am reluctant to do so. If this blip carries on or gets worse then I'll start a low dose of cit and work back up til I find a suitable dose, hopefully as low as possible.
Allergyphobia - Thanks :D I think that unfortunately the medication was working so well it gave me a false opinion of how far I'd come - either that, or I came off the meds too quick during a period that proved to be very difficult. This is the first major blip I've had without meds to back me up.
My dad reckons it's my job that brings me down - I have always had a very difficult time going to school or work or wherever and it's a problem that has made my life horrible at times (and it's been hell for my parents). I know for a fact that when I think about work I feel sick and my mood drops.
When I'm there I tend to enjoy it even though it's just a call centre with repetitive work and stupid hours. I have been looking elsewhere but the creeping thought comes back: what happens if I simply feel this way about the new job? The problem is mostly within me and I take it wherever I go.
Finally, I just phoned Anxiety UK and they haven't processed my counselling application - they reckon they're going to get a counsellor to ring me today to sort my first appointment.
Psychopoet just went to my doctor today and she upped my dose to 30mg. I'm glad, I don't care if i have to take these forever as long as i'm not a nervous wreck or as depressed as I was. I only came down to 20mg as i was pregnant but now my baby is 8 months old I am going back up to the 30mg. I don't feel bad or weak, actually quite the opposite - I suffer with anxiety and take meds that help just like people with other illnesses take meds to help them. I'm thinking of you and your blip and hoping you come out of it real soon! xxx
.
My dad reckons it's my job that brings me down - I have always had a very difficult time going to school or work or wherever and it's a problem that has made my life horrible at times (and it's been hell for my parents). I know for a fact that when I think about work I feel sick and my mood drops.
When I'm there I tend to enjoy it even though it's just a call centre with repetitive work and stupid hours. I have been looking elsewhere but the creeping thought comes back: what happens if I simply feel this way about the new job? The problem is mostly within me and I take it wherever I go.
Hi there, sorry you are having a rough time at the moment. :hugs: Reading about your job situation, this my situation, don't know if it resonates with you. For me, my job is a part of my depression and anxiety. I have always had full time busy PA/secretarial jobs and before my anxiety started, I decided to go part-time, thought I'd have a bit of a break and it was ok for a while. But post anxiety and depression, everything has changed, I have to take a real hard long look at myself and what I want out of life. This job is hampering me, I am not fulfilled at all and my idle negative chatter starts and I start to get my anxiety back when I wake up. And I don't want the depression back, I have not had that since the new year, but the longer I stay in this job, I worry that it may reappear so I need to do something! I am doing so well with other aspects, counselling, exercise etc, finding the right dosage for Cit, but I know I need a career change and want to work with children, so will be looking at doing a teaching assistant diploma and am also going to volunteer in a local primary school. My counsellor is so supportive and is motivating me to believe in myself and that I can change things if I really want to. I hope that helps.
And re the Cit, don't beat yourself up, it must be hard to know when you are okay to come off it. Hard to tell is it the Cit making you feel ok or is it all down to you? It's all trial and error, you have given it a go but you are struggling, it's ok to need some help.
Adam, how's it going today? Are you feeling any better? x
Hi everyone, thanks for the wonderful replies, I appreciate your comments and advice. Sorry for yet another massive post.
Asha - You're right, what the hell does it matter if we have to take pills to feel better? What's wrong with using the tools at our disposal? Nothing. If I have to go back onto the cit I will do so - I guess by that point there will be counselling and hypnotherapy in place to help. I'm sure the increase in dose will work for you and nobody says you have to be on 30mg forever.
Heavenly - Yep, that about says it all! Going part time can actually make things worse as you then start resenting having to go at all. On the other hand if you have therapy and coping strategies in place, maybe part time is best for you at the moment, so long as you make the most of them; be glad you haven't got to wait another 2 weeks just to hear from a counsellor about making a first appointment!
I think what you and I have, and no doubt a lot of people who suffer problems with work also have, is perhaps a kind of "separation anxiety" - we hate being taken away from either our loved ones, or our home, or both. Maybe you could try targeting that? I know that plays a huge part in all my problems: being surrounded by strangers who won't necessarily care about me, feeling isolated, those are fears that are coming back and need to be dealt with. Let me know how you get on with that.
I was actually logging in to say that I think I might be reaching the turning point in this blip. I've been feeling just a tiny bit stronger every day and when I phoned the Samaritans last night, I deliberately changed things: I was in a different room of the house and I kept the conversation positive. It was just some much-needed relief after a day feeling tense at work and it really helped me feel better. It's slow and painful but it seems to be happening...
EDIT: As I've phoned the samaritans so much I have started recognising voices and one of them told me today I sound a million times better than when I spoke to her on Sunday, more positive and less depressed!
If I can come out of this blip without medication (I'm not counting inositol, which I have been using nearly every day, as medication) it will be a huge victory and a massive morale booster. In fact I think it will heal a lot of damage, and will put me on the road to recovery once more.
Hi poet,
Just a brief message to say hang on in there.
I have only been taking cit for two weeks 40 mg but im doing remarkably well. Anxiety is at its lowest ever! Just now, it wouldnt bother me if i had to remain on cit for the rest of my life, it certainly beats some of the bleak places i've been without it.
I know its very early days, but my mood has lifted and my anger and anxiety are gone.
Take care.
Brian, good luck and stick with it mate, congratulations on feeling better. What other therapy are you receiving?
Well today I am still anxious about work - I wouldn't be so anxious if it was my day off and I had something else to do, but if today was a free day and I had no plans, I guess my anxiety would just take a new form. It's hard to go through life feeling constant dread and fear, but somehow I'm doing it.
The Anxiety UK counsellor phoned last night and my first appointment should be next week - I need to send the counsellor a cheque for 3 sessions in advance (total £60) before we can start. We talked for about 20 minutes and when I explained everything, including my morbid dread of depression, she said in her opinion I seemed very anxious so it's likely I am a GAD sufferer rather than anything else.
Good luck PsychoPoet. I have the same dread of depression, so I hope you post something about this after seeing the counsellor! I have used your cit survival guide to great effect, so thanks for that!
Cathy
Greenman50
12-03-11, 00:14
Hi poet
Your cit guide was a massive help to me , many thanks my friend .
I,ve just skipped through the "second dawn" and will have a proper read over the weekend . I,ve been on cit since January and i wouldn,t have coped with it without finding this site and your post :).
Please keep updateing as you will never know the amount of people you are helping .
Hope you get the peace you deserve at the end of this citralapram journey :yesyes:
Cathy, Mel2, thanks very much for your feedback and your support. Knowing people are still being helped by the guide gives meaning to the suffering I went through.
A lot has happened today and it's quite a turnaround.
I have gone back onto 10mg of citalopram.
I saw my hypnotherapist today and she was absolutely convinced that my problem lies with depression. Anyone who has read any of my old threads will know that I have a morbid, total terror of being depressed. The hypnotherapist basically said everything I NEVER wanted to hear: I am depressed, I am exhausted and anxious from denying it and fighting it, and I need to accept that depression is probably the underlying cause of my illness.
I came away from the session feeling very low (although no longer very anxious). As the day went by, I started to realise that the hypnotherapist might actually be right. I think my illness is actually depression rather than anxiety; the anxiety is simply my fear of depression, along with the shock that came from my whole world changing, and my lack of ability to cope with the changes in my life.
I have taken 10mg of citalopram and intend to continue taking citalopram until my life is in order. This was not the right time to come off citalopram in the first place - I still suffer from depression and social anxiety, I still have a number of issues I never really dealt with that lead to the depression and social anxiety, and all I have in my life at the moment is a job with stupid hours - hardly a good distraction from my problems.
I now feel more at peace than I have in a long time. That morbid fear I had now has no hold over me. I know I'm depressed, I admit I'm depressed, and I also know that I have been depressed before and come through it okay. So what need do I now have for anxiety?
I know this knowledge has not cured me. I know that I am going to have a tough time dealing with my issues. But I now know that I have finally faced my own worst fears, and you know what? The things I was afraid of HAVE NOT HAPPENED. I have not suddenly become suicidal, I haven't suddenly wanted to stay in bed all day and give up. I'm still me. This is just the new version of me.
Sounds difficult. I know lots of people are on citalopram for many years. I plan to be on it a year or two at the least.
I actually have a way out, but that would mean retiring from full time work.
Tero, it seems like you've avoided falling into the pointless trap of worrying about how long you will be on the medication. Retiring from full time work means less cash and more time to dwell, but I suspect you're aware of that!
For lots of people I've spoken to on No More Panic, the duration of our treatment is something that causes extra anxiety - but when you think about it, what does it matter whether we're on the citalopram for months or years? The important thing is feeling better, right? It's not a race to finish our treatment.
For myself I am a bit burned out by the last couple of weeks and I think the cit has upset my stomach but it's not like the bad old days and it's only a small dose. Accepting my situation has made me feel a hundred times calmer. I've been able to spend all day pottering about the house without panicking or suffering distressing thoughts. Once again, my thanks go to hypnotherapy!
Hi Psychopoet Im so glad you are feeling a bit less anxious about being depressed. To be honest I think they are basically the same thing. Because I get anxious about being depressed and I also get depressed about being anxious. So I end up in a spiral of fear!!! Good on you for going back on the cit. I don't care if I never come off, anything is better than feeling like I want to fall off the face of the Earth. You'll soon be feeling alot better I promise, I often wonder why we get this trauma in our lives. Trauma of getting depressed/anxious, going on meds, obsessing about the dosage, side effects,duration and withdrawals of medication? Are we the elite group of the earth that is most in touch with the dark side of life lol
Are we the elite group of the earth that is most in touch with the dark side of life lol
I'm not ready to find out that Darth Vader is my dad just yet, so I think we should consider ourselves the good guys for now! :yesyes:
Asha - In the actual session I was very distressed and wished I hadn't gone, because it made me feel confused and let down. The hypnotherapist seemed to say all the wrong things, and she went against everything I've believed for the last 2 years.
It took me all afternoon to realise that she was right. A view I've held for 2 years, changed in the space of 5 hours. There is something incredible about that.
I think that the anxiety has left me partly because the game is up and there's no need for it any more, but also because the session was deeply relaxing, in spite of its subject matter. Therapy is not easy and I'm not sure how I managed to relax so much.
The anxiety does linger at the edges sometimes and it's only day one. I might feel worse tomorrow, I might feel the same as I do now, all I can say is that I feel like I'm back on the path and it's good to be there. I just hope it's permanent!
Well, it's day two today, I am yet to take my second dose of cit, I'm waiting til dinner time. I went to bed far too late last night and feel totally knackered.
As I think I've already said, a big reason for my low mood and anxiety over the last few weeks has been the realisation that I've got nothing in my life except work. Apart from that I see my mate, who is depressed, or I sit at home. Normally when I'm feeling well I am happy to potter about reading or writing or playing the XBox but over the last couple of weeks I've been feeling like my life is empty, without greater purpose. That really, really got to me.
Now that I've started to accept this, it no longer hurts so badly and my anxiety is at a low level for the moment. On the other hand I know WHY I have got nothing else in my life: I feel more anxious at the thought of going out. Me and dad are planning to go out this afternoon and for some reason, despite being bored at home with nothing better to do than sit here writing about my problems, part of me doesn't want to go!
So it appears the problem is this:
* I am unhappy because my life is empty; I can see what I need to do and what I want to do to change this.
* I am too scared or demotivated to actually make any changes. The thought of making my life busier or more complicated, for example by meeting someone of the opposite sex, fills me with fear; the thought of going out for the day makes me want to mope at home, because I don't feel like I've got the energy or enthusiasm.
Now maybe as my tablets and therapy kick in, things will start getting easier for me. I also think that going to bed at 1am every night is not helping at all!
Well, it's day two today, I am yet to take my second dose of cit, I'm waiting til dinner time. I went to bed far too late last night and feel totally knackered.
As I think I've already said, a big reason for my low mood and anxiety over the last few weeks has been the realisation that I've got nothing in my life except work. Apart from that I see my mate, who is depressed, or I sit at home. Normally when I'm feeling well I am happy to potter about reading or writing or playing the XBox but over the last couple of weeks I've been feeling like my life is empty, without greater purpose. That really, really got to me.
Now that I've started to accept this, it no longer hurts so badly and my anxiety is at a low level for the moment. On the other hand I know WHY I have got nothing else in my life: I feel more anxious at the thought of going out. Me and dad are planning to go out this afternoon and for some reason, despite being bored at home with nothing better to do than sit here writing about my problems, part of me doesn't want to go!
So it appears the problem is this:
* I am unhappy because my life is empty; I can see what I need to do and what I want to do to change this.
* I am too scared or demotivated to actually make any changes. The thought of making my life busier or more complicated, for example by meeting someone of the opposite sex, fills me with fear; the thought of going out for the day makes me want to mope at home, because I don't feel like I've got the energy or enthusiasm.
Now maybe as my tablets and therapy kick in, things will start getting easier for me. I also think that going to bed at 1am every night is not helping at all!
To be honest I could have written alot of your post and you know I think the whole thing boils down to anxiety so maybe when our meds have adjusted properly we can take steps to start enjoying a more fulfilling life, here's hoping
I am wondering if this should turn into another survival diary like the one I made when I first joined NMP, as I have had a lot of PMs about these posts and I think it might help people. On the other hand I am wary of bombarding this forum with another 50 pages of self-absorbed rambling. Let me know if you want to read more of my thoughts, I'm happy to do it if it helps anyone.
So anyway - today I went out all afternoon with my dad and had an amazing time. The anxiety has significantly backed down (to about 5-10% of its previous level) since I chose to accept my depression, and despite some flare-ups, the anxiety has not taken hold and does not threaten to try.
Unfortunately when we got back home I instantly felt my mood lower. That's because of all the negative associations with being at home: having nothing to do except wait for work, phoning Samaritans, etc etc. Learning to deal with the demotivation and the low moods is tough but I have felt worse and come through it, so I don't let it get to me too much.
Also my second dose of cit had the same effect as yesterday's dose: it made me feel as sick as a dog.
I did notice a few side effects which I also had the first time I went onto cit in 2009: a very faint buzzing in my temples, mild feelings of anxiety and chest tightness. These are nowhere near as severe as in 2009 and I am far more in control (today's key words) than I was back then and I'm only taking 10mg this time, so the side effects can't hurt me. You hear me, side effects? You exhausted your bag of tricks two years ago, so good luck bothering me now, after everything I've been through.
So I texted my mate to arrange an evening out in the week and I made sure I've got something planned all day for Thursday, my next day off from work. This evening has been a chore as I really don't want to do anything except discuss my problems; I console myself by knowing my counselling starts soon, and by reminding myself what I'm unhappy about and what I need to (eventually) do to change it.
It's baby steps this time, no huge dramatic war like the first time around. I'm not fighting myself any more. And this time I'm going to make bloody sure I am "fixed" before I consider coming off the meds again.
EDIT: Asha - you posted that while I was still writing so I didn't see it :) Yeah you said you and I seem to have certain things in common and it's unbelievably helpful to see that someone else is going through the same things. Any insights you have are appreciated. In the meantime we just keep going.
Not sure if you have trained yourself to react to it. So perhaps the thing to do is to take the pill and plan some low pressure activity with someone right after that, something to take your mind off of it. I think you can do it.
I initially thought I had to take it at night, I did that the first 2 weeks. It turns out I can take it pretty much anytime, as long as I stick to that new schedule then.
Well that's it PsychoPoet - we just keep going, there is no other option anyway. I don't know if its the upping of my dose or what but I have this fear that feels like a churning in my stomach that tells me that throughout all the trauma of getting depressed in in the first place, trying out meds, trauma of going on them, all the awful blips I've had has scarred me for life. In a way that I feel it has completely changed me as a person and this is ME now for life. That there is no chance for me looking back in a couple of years and looking at it as an episode that I got through but I'm totally fine now. I get this dark gloomy vision of the future being doomed for me now. And even though I have everything around me that I need and love, I am the burdon because 'I'm not right in the head' - well I must not be because I'm on meds 3 years now and still not right. I'm still suffering with bouts of depression and alot of anxiety. Only difference is now I can function with it.
So that's the anxiety I've been getting the past while - HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tero - you're right, a lot of it is "fear of fear", so it's hard to tell what it real and what I've brought on myself. My dad reckons I make myself ill with worry. He's right. It's something that needs to be addressed in therapy. If I find a method that works, I'll share it in this thread. Like you said, cit can be taken any time of the day but you should try to take it around the same time each day (it doesn't have to be exactly timed).
Asha - you once said to me you could have written my post; I could have written yours! So it seems we are going through basically the same thing after all :) I'll PM you in a bit.
It's very harrowing, but what gets me through is knowing that things will get better in time. I learned this back in 2009. I've got no idea at all how I made it through that hell and there were times I thought I was going insane but I came through it.
Reading my old threads on this forum is quite therapeutic and some of the answers (like depression being a major issue) seem obvious.
Facing this combination of fear, helplesness and dread is the toughest thing I've had to do in two years. Let's see what happens.
funkymonkey
14-03-11, 23:55
Hi, hope you don't mind me posting as a newbie.......just that I have been reading your survival guide etc and have found it, well, amazingly helpful.Won't bore everyone with the details but basically I took citalopram for depression/anxiety (not 100% sure which was the biggest issue tbh) from 2008 -May 2010. Worked a dream, 20mg. But thought I was bit big time so weaned off it, felt ok, hunky dory whoop de do. Anyway, been quite anxious and suffering severe IBS last few months so decided to do something about it. Was a bit put out by GP suggesting cit again, but then decided enough was enough, so have started taking 10mg each day for the past 3 days.
Feel very nauseous & no appetite at present but hoping that this will settle eventually. I live in hope that it will help me again and bring me back to the person I should be. I guess I wanted to share that cit worked so well for me that I do have faith it will help me again. You post with such honesty that I felt I had to register and comment/respond - hang on in there, you need to ride the waves a bit (thats how I view it lol, even if a bit cheesy!) then we will sail into the calmer waters, all being well eh? :-)))))))) P x
Hi Funkymonkey, welcome to the journey. It's interesting that we both suffer from severe nausea - to be honest that has been getting worse for at least a full week before I went back on to cit, but 1-3 hours after taking a dose of cit I feel proper bilious. (Be warned: the rest of this is the kind of ranting No More Panic either loves or hates from me.)
Funny how our experiences seem to parallel each other: we both felt bigger than maybe we were, then found out that we're still human after all, and we made the reluctant decision to go back onto the cit at the same time. The things you say about wanting to just feel better and be what you consider normal is something that strikes a real chord with me, but I wonder if wanting to be who we WERE is the right strategy. That was my original goal when writing the Citalopram Survival Guide: that ANYONE can make a COMPLETE recovery.
But it occurs to me that we are changed by what we go through, and it's that change that initially makes us feel worse when we feel alien and isolated, and the world seems a different place; then the change continues in a more positive vein when we start to make progress with therapy and self-help, and we become more mature, more enlightened maybe, more experienced and hard-bitten certainly. The CHANGE in how we see ourselves, the world and our place within it seems to be the defining characteristic of a battle against anxiety and depression - for better (during recovery) and for worse (during the initial decline).
I'm willing to bet that no-one is the same person after anxiety and depression, no matter how much they recover, but is that a BAD thing? Is it something to be AFRAID of? I know that I didn't recognise myself during the earliest days of my anxiety and depression, but I also know I didn't recognise myself when I started to come out on the other side. Yes, that was scary, but on balance the changes in me were GOOD. The fact that I'm still where I am now is down to me not pushing me advantage. I started to recover, and as soon as I felt better, I went straight back to my old habits. Two months later, ta-da, welcome back citalopram.
So should we really be trying to get back to who we were? Or should we be looking ahead, to improving ourselves and being somehow BETTER than we were? If we go back to how we were two years ago, ten years ago, will we end up making all the same mistakes? Coming off cit the way I did has set me back 2 years, or even worse - it feels like I've gone back to how I was when I was five years old, a needy child scared of the world yet wanting to be part of it at the same time.
Now I am fully confident that I can get back to where I was given time (and much unnecessary suffering), and I have the same confidence in anyone who actually feels in their heart that they can be more, they can be better, that there is hell to come but what awaits on the other side is worth striving for. I accept that like my counsellor says, it's going to be 6 weeks before the counselling starts making much impact. I accept that the cit is going to make me feel like shit for a while, that I'll get up in the morning feeling dread and low moods, because I KNOW that it won't always be like this.
Ladies and gents, I think we need to face up to something: we may always have the shadow of anxiety and depression in our lives because, like being in a warzone, we experienced our own personal hell. The objective may not be to make a "complete recovery" - how do you make a complete recovery from life? Shouldn't we embrace it, for better or for worse, instead of sulking about how depressing things are, how things are getting worse, how Gordon Brown is already cashing in by starring in crap adverts, etc?
We will always be more vulnerable to anxiety and depression than other people. We've been there, we've had it in our heads, we've hated it and fought with it and at the same time it has been a constant in our lives, the one thing that stayed the same in an ever-changing world. The solution is to work on COPING STRATEGIES so that if this illness rears its ugly hydra-heads, we don't waste strength cutting them down and seeing more heads grow to take their place; we smoothly avoid the whole issue altogether by staying in control and putting our own happiness above the seductive lure of feeling bad.
Like it or not, in one way we will always be different from other people.
They don't know; they weren't there.
--
Today has not been anywhere near as bad as the last 2 weeks, mainly because I worked a 9-5 shift today so I didn't have the horrible anticipation of my usual 12-8 shift. I woke at 5am this morning (a chance to relive old times, thank you citalopram) but had such a relaxing, restful doze without any negative mental chatter that it lifted me for the whole of today. I recognise the old tension as I expect the horrible feelings to come back. It is definitely worse at home. I'm switching to taking the cit in the mornings again.
After phoning Anxiety UK for a reassuring chat on my lunch break I decided to check this Mindfulness thing out. The lady at A-UK said people have told her the change in them has been "miraculous" after getting into Mindfulness, she personally swears by it, and she even suggested I find a local Mindfulness support group and physically attend group therapy sessions.
To be honest it's such a good idea I'm checking it out tonight. There is definitely a change in me today, though how long it will last is anybody's guess. I'm taking it a day at a time these days, rather than expecting every break in the clouds to be a sign of imminent recovery. I let the glimpse of blue sky act like a tantalising reminder that I can feel better. It's only day four.
Good luck. Get to a routine.
I had my annual checkup and we will stay at 10mg, though the doc was OK to go to 20mg. But, as Long as I can function, I will go at this dose. I weigh 180lb and am 6 foot tall so it is kind of a lower end dose.
funkymonkey
16-03-11, 09:58
Well, day 5 today on 10mg, last night (I take it @6pmish) seemed a bit better, not as sickly and lightheaded. Darent think that it could be this easy but just taking it a step at a time and defo don't feel as nauseous this morning too. I think that there is some truth in what you say Psychopoet but I also feel that maybe we tend to look too much into it, why not just accept that citalopram makes us feel so much better and that feeling in turn helps us to access the other helpful approaches? You are right though that we will always be different, but hey, that isn't a bad thing. Like all life experiences, we become who we are by what we do, see and live, my experiences with depression/anxiety have been at times horrendous but yet when I look back they have also helped to realise the positives/good in my life, and I seem to appreciate them more. I do a very stressful and emotional job and my own experiences help me support those people I see who are going through such hellish situations because I think I can empathise in a different way to those who haven't had a glimpse of hell, if that makes sense?
I don't want my family to think of me as that stroppy miserable cow who shouts at everyone lol, so I have to give this a try and am doing as you are in trying to address some of my other "issues" - taking time for me, not working over my hours, running more etc etc, I know that all of this will help me too.
Hope you are having a decent day today, nearly a week down just remind yourself that eh?
Take care, P x
Well, day 5 today on 10mg, last night (I take it @6pmish) seemed a bit better, not as sickly and lightheaded. Darent think that it could be this easy but just taking it a step at a time and defo don't feel as nauseous this morning too. I think that there is some truth in what you say Psychopoet but I also feel that maybe we tend to look too much into it, why not just accept that citalopram makes us feel so much better and that feeling in turn helps us to access the other helpful approaches? You are right though that we will always be different, but hey, that isn't a bad thing. Like all life experiences, we become who we are by what we do, see and live, my experiences with depression/anxiety have been at times horrendous but yet when I look back they have also helped to realise the positives/good in my life, and I seem to appreciate them more. I do a very stressful and emotional job and my own experiences help me support those people I see who are going through such hellish situations because I think I can empathise in a different way to those who haven't had a glimpse of hell, if that makes sense?
I don't want my family to think of me as that stroppy miserable cow who shouts at everyone lol, so I have to give this a try and am doing as you are in trying to address some of my other "issues" - taking time for me, not working over my hours, running more etc etc, I know that all of this will help me too.
Hope you are having a decent day today, nearly a week down just remind yourself that eh?
Take care, P x
Hi that's great you felt a bit better. Onwards and upwards. I know what you mean with not wanting your family to see you as a stroppy miserable cow, I was like that last week! Biting everyone's heads off!
Tero - 10mg is a bit low, but I suppose if you feel you can function on that dose then stick with it. You know what's best.
Funkymonkey - I have changed to taking it in the mornings now and while my nausea has not been that bad, it's pretty much the anixety that stopped me having any lunch at work today and I think that made me feel worse (low blood sugar).
Actually I have felt a lot worse today and am in a state of high tension at the minute - I am very wound up. But I got through work, I'm going to my mate's soon and I start counselling tomorrow.
I'm not bothering to analyse what is depression, what is anxiety and what is the medication (I'm definitely having side effects already). Today has been a low day and I've felt strung out all evening - but I remind myself that I went through something like this before in 2009 and I made it then, so I've just got to keep going until things improve. At least I can admit now that I'm depressed, rather than make myself anxious by fighting the truth.
Counselling starts in 1 hour. Sod it, I'm going to write another survival diary. I think my sanity demands it.
Days 1-4 (Sat 12 March 2011 - Tues 15 March 2011)
Scores given are highest good mood/anxiety/depression.
STARTED TAKING 10mg CIT ON SATURDAY, IN THE EVENINGS. Anxiety greatly alleviated on Saturday and Sunday by accepting my depression for the first time, after a session of hypnotherapy. Spent Sunday out with my dad, had an amazing time which kept my anxiety and depression low, but my mood dropped and fear set in as soon as I came home. My moods always seem worse in some ways when I'm at home.
Felt very low and anxiety through the roof on Monday due to returning to work - not a good day at all. Tuesday was far better and was a calm day, generally anxiety-free, but as bedtime came around I felt very low and quite anxious again. I missed Tuesday's dose as I wanted to start taking cit in the mornings rather than the evenings.
Cit side effects so far were mild: faint feeling of pressure in temples, worse feeling of nausea after taking dose and especially after eating. Recognised these from back in 2009 and they are less severe now.
Sa: 8/10/8
Su: 8/9/8
Mon: 4/10/7
Tues: 7/7/7
Day 5 (Wed 16 March 2011)
6/10/9
In the evening I was hyper, wound up, feeling like I was going out of my mind. It was pretty terrible. The Samaritan I spoke to said I was talking at 100 miles a minute which I haven't done for ages. I nearly stayed in last night as I felt so low and strained but I went to my mate's house as planned.
I'm so glad I did. We had a laugh, talked about how I felt, his girlfriend is very sympathetic as she has low moods as well and her dad is depressed. I even got special attention from their dogs who always seem to know when I'm feeling rough.
As I got some perspective I realised this "wound up" feeling might simply be the citalopram having side effects. I remember a constant feeling like I was coiled up inside and might snap. I seem to have a morbid fear of losing control of myself, which links into my morbid fears of going mad or becoming suicidal - neither of which has happened to me so far, so why does it still scare me?
Counselling starts in 1 hour. Sod it, I'm going to write another survival diary. I think my sanity demands it.
Days 1-4 (Sat 12 March 2011 - Tues 15 March 2011)
Scores given are highest good mood/anxiety/depression.
STARTED TAKING 10mg CIT ON SATURDAY, IN THE EVENINGS. Anxiety greatly alleviated on Saturday and Sunday by accepting my depression for the first time, after a session of hypnotherapy. Spent Sunday out with my dad, had an amazing time which kept my anxiety and depression low, but my mood dropped and fear set in as soon as I came home. My moods always seem worse in some ways when I'm at home.
Felt very low and anxiety through the roof on Monday due to returning to work - not a good day at all. Tuesday was far better and was a calm day, generally anxiety-free, but as bedtime came around I felt very low and quite anxious again. I missed Tuesday's dose as I wanted to start taking cit in the mornings rather than the evenings.
Cit side effects so far were mild: faint feeling of pressure in temples, worse feeling of nausea after taking dose and especially after eating. Recognised these from back in 2009 and they are less severe now.
Sa: 8/10/8
Su: 8/9/8
Mon: 4/10/7
Tues: 7/7/7
Day 5 (Wed 16 March 2011)
6/10/9
In the evening I was hyper, wound up, feeling like I was going out of my mind. It was pretty terrible. The Samaritan I spoke to said I was talking at 100 miles a minute which I haven't done for ages. I nearly stayed in last night as I felt so low and strained but I went to my mate's house as planned.
I'm so glad I did. We had a laugh, talked about how I felt, his girlfriend is very sympathetic as she has low moods as well and her dad is depressed. I even got special attention from their dogs who always seem to know when I'm feeling rough.
As I got some perspective I realised this "wound up" feeling might simply be the citalopram having side effects. I remember a constant feeling like I was coiled up inside and might snap. I seem to have a morbid fear of losing control of myself, which links into my morbid fears of going mad or becoming suicidal - neither of which has happened to me so far, so why does it still scare me?
Hi the wound up feeling I believe is definitely a side effect of citalopram. I have it with each dosage increase and both times I began the med initially. Hope you enjoy your counselling session today I'm sure it will be of great benefit. Hang on in there, you're doing great.
Hi Asha, I still have the wound-up feeling and I felt a bit out of my mind this morning before counselling, but I try to take comfort from knowing it's the cit and I have been through this before.
When I think about having to wake up tomorrow and go to work it makes me feel sick and trapped which has been the worst thing about this blip. It's this feeling that really does the damage. Also I am still not eating properly. My body gets hungry but I have to force food down with lots of drinks. These feelings are similar to how I felt when I first became ill in 2009.
The counselling went well, she says she can help me and she did find a few positives despite me being generally anxious and unhappy. Again she told me depression is a kind of anxiety. We didn't discuss a quarter of the things I wanted to talk about (I've got enough issues to fill half a dozen sessions of pure venting) but we did concentrate on the most immediate things. My next appointment is in 9 days' time.
She has given me a couple of breathing exercises: the usual "breathe from your abdomen and not from your chest", along with "hold your breath, count to 10, exhale gently and smile". That second one is her favourite and while it sometimes makes me feel worse (trying to force a smile when I feel low is very hard), she said to keep practicing as it gets easier and it helps her a lot (she is from Anxiety UK and is an anxiety sufferer herself).
Day 6 - Thurs 17/3/11
Highest scores for good mood/anxiety/depression: 6.5/10/9
I re-took the anxiety and depression tests on Livinglifetothefull. I was more honest than I used to be. My anxiety and depression scores were both off the chart, a lot higher than my previous scores. Previously my depression score was between 4 and 6. Today it was 20. My counsellor told me to stop doing things like this because all it does is scare the crap out of me.
that sounds very promising indeed. I'm almost envious that you got to see one lol. Can I ask, are they expensive per session?
Hi Asha, the phone therapy costs £20 per session for most people (it's based on a sliding scale of household income) and face to face therapy is usually £25. I get my therapy through Anxiety UK.
You have to pay to join them for a year, which is around 20 quid, then you pay a £5 admin fee if you want to receive therapy from them. They send you some forms which take about 5-10 minutes to fill in, then you email them back. I strongly recommend calling them the next day to make sure they have got your forms and are processing them, because there was a delay with mine which could have cost a lot of time.
Today the breathing exercise has started to work for me (especially after I did it in front of a mirror as the counsellor instructed) and while I'm still very anxious, I have been quite positive this morning. It's all about staying in control and not letting the anxiety run away with you, because that's when I start feeling depressed. I'm back at work today but trying not to dread it. After all, work is boring but it's not exactly the stuff of nightmares. I'm just used to feeling like crap when I'm there, so I naturally associate work with being ill.
EDIT: I forgot, the counsellor said she can do CBT with me, but she said I am not ready for that yet because I am still struggling with motivation and anxiety.
Ah but I''m in Ireland, where the mental health system is ridiculously poor.
I actually am OK at work, 30 years of similar lab jobs. I find the routine comforting and it takes care of 8hrs with no major anxiety. I get to work on my own most of the day.
There are times that certain work situations triggered a major migraine, though. Can't have it all.
Take care Poet.
Evening all. Yesterday was actually a good day with the lowest anxiety for a while, mainly because the things I learned in counselling had time to sink in and I now have an effective coping strategy for the first time (the deep breathing exercise).
Asha, thank you so much for recommending the Claire Weekes book "Self-Help For Your Nerves." I got it today and it has already made a difference. I will definitely be tweaking the Citalopram Survival Guide, although I am surprised and pleased how closely some parts of the Guide (and its spirit of optimism) mirror what is in Dr Weekes' book. My Guide missed her most important point though: almost everything that affects us is driven by fear.
I'd recommend this book to anyone and I completely agree with the blurb on the back: "Many readers believe if they had found this book earlier they would have been saved years of unnecessary suffering."
I'm not going to be measuring my anxiety and depression day by day any more. Acceptance won't come if I hide behind statistics and immerse myself in things that make me afraid.
Tero: It's good to hear that you are functioning so well. My only concern is what happens when your routine gets broken. I'm willing to bet that might provoke the most basic reaction that drives all of us here: fear. But fear can be dealt with. So if something does happen to break your routine, remember that it's just fear that you feel, nothing more, nothing less.
EDIT: Today is the first day in over 2 weeks that I didn't phone Anxiety UK or the Samaritans! It doesn't matter if I need to phone them again tomorrow, I'm learning to accept that some days will be good and others crap, it's not a race to recover (not any more) and I trust that in time my self-help, my therapy and my natural mental defences will help get me back on my feet.
It is good that you have some support person to talk to. Though I have the support of family, about all I have convinced them is that I may not be fully functional while under anxiety, so they do not ask me to do things I cannot do. When I have migraine, it is more obvious, they leave me alone till recovered.
Tero - family tend to bear the burden of our problems but they can't do a great deal to help as they aren't qualified for it, so it can be very hard on them. That's why I use Samaritans and Anxiety UK instead. I'm sure there are loads of support groups in the USA? I tried to find a local support group but apart from Mind, which in my town attracts people who are very, very ill, there is nothing.
I haven't posted for a few days as I have been up and down a lot. If I wake in the morning feeling spaced out and anxious, it is going to be a bad day; if I wake up calm, I know I'll have a good day. That simple rule has defined my life for about a week now. The pattern seems to be good-bad-good-bad at the moment. Today was bad.
The bad days are very difficult to get through because I'm tired (waking up at 6am every day and not working til 12), and it is very obvious that this level of tiredness is making my anxiety worse.
I remember that I have been here before with no support and no knowledge, so this time I have all the advantages. I'm seeing the hypnotherapist again on Thursday and am in counselling on Sunday.
I have learned that my problem is a fear of everything; I'm afraid to live and I'm even more afraid to die. This is something that I must change, otherwise I will never be able to enjoy my life to its fullest and I will always be trapped by fear. It is not going to be easy or quick but then again, nothing of value ever is.
The Claire Weekes book has been invaluable and I've recommended it to everyone I've spoken to. With its reassurance, I've been able to go without phoning the Samaritans and Anxiety UK, but only on good days. I'm having a lot of trouble with the "floating" strategy she suggests as she mentions it constantly but only spends about 2 sentences telling you what it is.
I had a good day today. It started off with anxiety at 6am, which is not a good sign, but I held my nerve and I had a laugh with my colleagues today. I feel like I'm actually part of a group now which is rare for me in the workplace.
I've ordered Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, and placed an advance order for a new book called When Life Gives You Lemons, which teaches you how to make a gradual recovery from depression just by spending 10 seconds a day following its rules. I read a superb and very honest review of that book today.
I have learned a lot about myself and my problems over the last 24 hours and I think that in the long run, these 24 hours will prove to be life changing.
Yesterday I had another session of hypnotherapy which upset me very badly. Basically, my therapist said what I've been dreading all along: I know everything I need to know in order to get better, now I need to stop relying on other people for my happiness and work towards it myself. It's the time for actions, not words.
As I have gradually come to terms with this, for perhaps the first time in my life I have started trying to rely on myself today. It's not easy to start at this age and I have little prior experience but I have made and accepted my decision to learn how to support myself, without having to hide behind support groups and self-help books, which are essentially useless if you're not prepared to act on what you've learned.
I went up to 20mg of cit today: I accept that in my current state I do need the citalopram, and although I don't want to be on it forever, I accept that I won't be putting any timescale on my recovery this time around. As the meds lift me, I can then more effectively find ways to change my perspective in order to recover and get my life back on track.
Had my second counselling session today. The therapist said I sounded much better than the last time we spoke and we discussed how I've started taking responsibility for my recovery.
I haven't phoned Anxiety UK or the Samaritans for 3 days now, not because I'm cutting myself off, but because I need to learn to distract myself and be a part of the world, rather than running off and wrapping myself in my problems. I've put all the self-help stuff aside (apart from the occasional reference back to the Claire Weekes book, which has been a godsend).
This has helped me to stop obsessing so much and it's given a genuine shot of self-confidence. I was dreading today due to the counselling and the fact that it's a day off. My last 3 Sundays have been horrendous.
Instead of worrying, I spent today helping my dad to clear the back garden, then I sat out there for ages reading and writing, and I've been at my mate's all evening. His girlfriend said I look a lot better than this time last week. In the afternoon I actually took the phone upstairs to phone Samaritans when the anxiety came back but then I put it back and started interacting with my family instead. This is the first time in a month that I've sat laughing and joking at the dinner table.
I'm proud of myself for taking responsibility over my recovery - something I tried to do in 2009, but never really managed.
Dragonsblonde
28-03-11, 12:58
Hey
Sorry to hear you are going through the Mill again, but I will say this which may help a little. I only really started to "recover" after I had "fully recovered and then crashed again".
Basically I thought I had it beat with meds and some work on counselling etc, but it wasn't until I fell back to the beginning and looked through fresh eyes that I worked my way out of it.
The tools of the trade so to speak for me were the Citalopram, to give me the rest I needed to see clearly. The Claire Weekes programme was the best I found and the acceptance principle is the key I think. We can live with it of course we can, but it doesn't have to rule us. My counsellor once said all our feeling and emotions are a part of our own internal family which sometimes falls out with itself. If you listen to all the family however and give them all a little of what they need they balance back out again. (hope that makes sense)
The third thing which I couldn't do without now is that practice of mindfulness. It has taken a long time of pratice with it, but now I find myself with a new outlook every day and I move through the days calmer and happier in general as it slowly becomes part of you, rather than just a relaxation technique.
I guess trying to sum up is I am just saying there is always peace to be found, just never as quickly as we would like
Hi Dragonsblonde, thank you for that very helpful reply, I agree totally with what you say. It seems more clear every day that I had reached a "plateau" in my recovery until I came off the medication. Becoming ill again has shown that I am NOT recovered yet. It has shown me that I still need help, I had no coping strategies, I just relied on the medication or other people to make me feel better. How many other people are in the same situation without realising it?
The Claire Weekes stuff is really helpful although I haven't achieved acceptance yet - when the fear comes, it is vague, like a freezing cloud, and I find it very hard to deal with. I haven't really got into Mindfulness yet since I was overloading myself with self help. I AM starting to see minor benefits from self-encouragement and distraction, and it is quite heartening to realise that I am finally taking some responsibility.
On the other hand, I am actually starting to feel like I am ready to confront the real issues - which I realised today, during an overheard conversation, is a morbid fear of death. Now I've always known I had that problem but I have never confronted it, so that fear has remained constant and lately it became overwhelming. I've left a message for my counsellor asking if we can bring my appointment forward as I don't fancy waiting another 9 days to talk about this.
Finally, I am having unpleasant side effects from the 20mg dose. It's like the "good old" days: tension of the jaw, tension headaches in the temples, heightened feelings of anxiety.
EDIT: I just read my old citalopram thread and in it I described myself as feeling "frazzled", thinking the anxiety had heightened the side effects of the cit. Frazzled is the perfect word for how I feel at the moment. I realise now the medication made the anxiety worse, not the other way round. If I still feel like this in another couple of weeks I'll look at changing medication; this isn't the first time I have wondered whether citalopram is right for me.
Dragonsblonde
29-03-11, 13:16
I totally understand the overloaded feeling. When I first started looking at therapy I cast the widest net there was and almost driven by the panic I started off trying everything and then when it didn't have an instant effect building something else on top of that lol
When the CIT kicked in and I calmed a little I was able to structure what I needed to do a bit better. I started with some person centered talking then some CBT. I ran the mindfulness alongside it all as that I did at home, had some MP3 sessions on my pod and when I had trouble sleeping would do the longest session laid in bed.
Then I stopped all the good habits I had and thought I was fixed - hurrah! miracles do happen.........then I crashed and started again. This time with a better understanding of who I was and what my anxiety was. This time has been a gentler recovery and I think that sums up how I feel about things now. I am just more gentle with everything
and I was the one who asked my counsellor "I think I have accepted , my anxiety..BUT how do you know for sure" lol. By the way the answer is, when you never think of asking that question..
Heh, that part about "how do you know when you've accepted it" made me smile, because it's so true: you KNOW when you've accepted it. If you have to ask, it hasn't happened yet. It hasn't happened for me yet and in a sense I accept THAT!
It's funny because my experience seems to parallel yours; the second recovery is different because you go into it with your eyes open. It's not all a frightening blur, unlike the first time round, even though it is still tough and often harrowing. When you are feeling ok it is a deeper and more peaceful sense that you are actually making some kind of improvement.
I phoned my counsellor to bring my appointment forward to this Thursday. I told her that I am starting to feel ready to discuss the deeper issues, because all I've done so far is tackle the symptoms of my anxiety/depression rather than the cause, and waiting two weeks was too long. She actually said she had regretting scheduling my sessions 2 weeks apart so we've agreed another 3 weekly sessions.
At the moment I'm suffering from the increase to 20mg but I am sleeping a couple of hours longer and my appetite is nowhere near as low as last week. The scary thoughts and feelings are still there but they all start with "If" and I am determined not to let the ifs and buts rule my life any more. The fear, even though it is the ultimate fear - fear of death - is not quite so striking when you can actually say to yourself, with no tears or apprehension, "Yeah, THAT'S what I'm scared of."
The coping strategies I have learned do help, it's not much during the days when the anxiety is almost crippling but it is something I didn't have before and it does make a difference.
Counselling in 10 minutes... I've been quite tense for the last few days, partly because I am not looking forward to discussing my deepest fears, but also because of the increase in cit dose. I'm finding the 20mg dose quite harsh just like I did 2 years ago. It's harder to get to sleep at night, where before I was asleep when my head hit the pillow; my jaw is clenching just like it did back in 2009; I've got an increased and very uncomfortable feeling of tension in my temples.
Also I'm getting heightened anxiety which is definitely linked to the cit and I find that this anxiety is centred in my stomach and my chest. I have had instances where my throat feels constricted and I think this is what triggered my severe night-time panic attacks in 2009.
On the other hand the cit and my self-help techniques have definitely helped me and I am a lot better than I was 2 weeks ago, so I will persevere with the cit. Hopefully I won't need to increase to 30mg again. I know from experience that the side effects should start to resolve in a week or so and I've held on this long.
good luck today! I have recently started cit and your guide made for a helpful and interesting read - you have done so well and you still are!
you will get through today! you are stronger than you think - you have helped so many people with you complete honesty!
xxx
Hi Jemlou, thank you for the inspiring comment, I hope that the guide helps you while you get used to the citalopram.
My counsellor says I have made more progress since our last appointment. This is true in some ways as I have kept putting one foot in front of the other, I have continued to use my new coping strategies and I have only called Samaritans once in the last week (a marked improvement from calling them several times a day last week). I've had the usual fears that I might be bipolar, agoraphobic, beyond saving etc which I have now and then and which are a common feature of anxiety/depression. She believes that my problem is pure anxiety (depression counts as anxiety in today's treatments, apparently) with no serious health or phobia implications, otherwise she said I would not be able to socialise or go to work, which I do every day.
We are still talking through various topics and I am trying to sort my head out with the aim of one day, however long it takes, being free of my fears. So there were no big revelations today, just another productive session discussing my hopes and fears and working out how to make the hopes come true and the fears bugger off.
Well done - i know you said you were nervous about going yesterday, but you did it and got through it :)
Ok so maybe no big revelations but thats not a bad thing is it, slow and steady wins the race! just be content with taking baby steps - progress is progress no matter how small it may seem.
And the fact you have phoned Samaritans a lot less is a marked improvement isnt it - it shows that you ARE getting better at coping by yourself, but dont see it as failure if you do call them, just a helping hand on your road to recovery.
xxx
Hi Jemlou, thank you :) It is always helpful when someone else validates the good things :D
I still haven't phoned for support since talking to the counsellor. I had a really nice day out with Dad on Thursday afternoon but caught myself on the verge of freaking out a number of times, and managed to talk myself out of it. I'm impressed with the discipline I am learning, as I am quite slobbish and ineffectual with myself, and I am finally learning how to change that. Thursday evening was amazing.
Friday was a generally good day. I slept well and the anxiety was low all day, although I did feel tense in case the anxiety came back. Today was an anxious day again and I realised a couple of things: my current worst fears are the low moods, which terrify me even though I am not suicidal, and the side effects of cit, which seem to amplify the anxiety.
I've noticed that since reading the Claire Weekes book, my stomach does seem to be the most affected part of my body. When my anxiety is at its worst I feel sick and uncomfortable. I think my body is trained to go into "anxiety mode" and I tense up, get headachey and feel sick - this may be quite significant and if I can find a way to stop this, I might have made a massive breakthrough.
Funny how all the self-analysis I did in my threads for the last 2 years seem to have missed these crucial points.
Hi Jemlou, thank you :) It is always helpful when someone else validates the good things :D
I still haven't phoned for support since talking to the counsellor. I had a really nice day out with Dad on Thursday afternoon but caught myself on the verge of freaking out a number of times, and managed to talk myself out of it. I'm impressed with the discipline I am learning, as I am quite slobbish and ineffectual with myself, and I am finally learning how to change that. Thursday evening was amazing.
Friday was a generally good day. I slept well and the anxiety was low all day, although I did feel tense in case the anxiety came back. Today was an anxious day again and I realised a couple of things: my current worst fears are the low moods, which terrify me even though I am not suicidal, and the side effects of cit, which seem to amplify the anxiety.
I've noticed that since reading the Claire Weekes book, my stomach does seem to be the most affected part of my body. When my anxiety is at its worst I feel sick and uncomfortable. I think my body is trained to go into "anxiety mode" and I tense up, get headachey and feel sick - this may be quite significant and if I can find a way to stop this, I might have made a massive breakthrough.
Funny how all the self-analysis I did in my threads for the last 2 years seem to have missed these crucial points.
this is where i get hit the most with my anxiety straight to the stomach and i usually always notice my stomach is tensed 24/7 but if i am having an anxious day i just get the sickly stomach feeling right away x
Hi honeypie! Maybe we've found a source of the anxiety's power over us? I know that ever since i was a kid, if i was anxious my stomach would be upset. If we could overcome this, what kind of difference would it make to our lives?
Morning everyone. Had a really good night last night, but today (yet again) I woke feeling wound up and tense. I am certain that the cit is making me feel worse at the moment just like it did in 2009 so this is something that should hopefully get better since I've now been on this dose for a week and a half.
Also I am definitely suffering from the low mood - it's not like I just slump around everywhere depressed, most of the time I am pretty normal if a bit tense or upset, but the problem is I can't see any hope of actually feeling happy (in the long term) or relaxed at this point: I'm trapped in a rut which I'm too scared to change. I am frightened that I will only start feeling good because of the medication. I want to feel good because I am naturally happy and motivated, not because I've got citalopram in my body.
The daily routine I'm in has trapped me, and this means I go through the same motions every day. While I have definitely started some kind of recovery in the last 1-2 weeks, I'm worried that my recovery will only go so far.
It is some comfort to know that nearly everyone gets these worries, and I am making such progress in some ways that I feel stupid for doubting myself - but if I could banish those doubts, I'd be well again, so for now it's Catch 22.
EDIT: I've been browsing NMP on and off for several hours today, so I guess this counts as a "bad" day - I'm obsessing again.
funkymonkey
03-04-11, 20:39
Been 3 weeks on 10mg now, seems like nausea and swimming head have almost gone and I do feel some way to feeling less anxious to be fair. IBS still a nightmare tho, so will have to get that checked out I guess. Psychopoet, I have been following your posts and you are doing ok, if you re-read them you will be able to see it youself too, however small that progress may be, it is progress. Have oredered the book that you recommendtoo, hang on in there x
Funkymonkey - thank you, that is very heartening to hear! I guess when you're in the middle of trying to get better, it's easy to overlook the positive things that have happened, especially on an anxious day. This must be part of the "acceptance" thing, in other words you don't just need to accept that you CAN get better, you need to acknowledge and accept that you ARE getting better. I have some kind of fear of success and this is just one example of it. How silly we humans are - why would be be afraid to acknowledge that we are doing well?
It's good that you're having some success on the citalopram front. You will definitely benefit from the Claire Weekes book - I literally cannot stop recommending it to people. Everyone who hasn't got a Claire Weekes book needs to get on Amazon.co.uk now and get it ordered - if you respect the advice I give in the Citalopram Guide, respect this advice too, I beg you!!
Well I'm halfway through my second week on 20mg, which means I've been on the cit for 3-4 weeks now. The cit is helping and my new self-help techniques are working as well but I am still far from fixed; I've got a funeral on Friday which I don't think I am up to, half my family is ill with a nasty stomach bug and my Thursday morning counselling session seems a million miles away. I am still feeling "frazzled" from the cit and my anxiety occasionally twists out of my control. Also, we couldn't go out for Mother's Day yesterday due to members of my family feeling ill and I actually felt relief that we couldn't go.
Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday is the hardest part of my week (my days off are Thursday and Sunday). On the other hand I have only phoned for support once in a week and a half. I did try to call Anxiety UK this morning but all their lines were busy.
I think I need more support at this stage than just a single counselling session per week. I know it's only 7 days between sessions but like I said, this feels like forever. I try to comfort myself by using my self-help techniques and "owning" my recovery rather than simply relying on someone else to make me feel better.
The fact that I can talk about this calmly without being overwhelmed shows how far I've come over the last 3 weeks. Mornings are nowhere near as bad as before although I do feel strong flutters of anxiety from the moment I wake.
On the other hand I still have the fear that I may need to increase back to 30mg and if I do this, I am worried that any happiness or relief I feel will be artificial. I am tempted to stay on 20mg even if this means I have to suffer for a few more weeks or months, because it will be the only way to know whether I am genuinely recovering?
You have come such a long way and its been a tough journey for you and you have survived it all - you can get through this.
I'd say stick with the 20mg for a couple more weeks if you can, because if you give up you will always be scared of lowering your dose again in the future and it seems you have gone through some hard stuff to get to this point so try and ride it out! Easier said then done i know!
You feel you need more support from your conseller at moment but seriously you have been doing fab you have been using the helplines much less so you are bound to have a bit of a wobble and me searching for support.
Yes us humans are funny things, our brains do too much overtime i recon! I moved house this weekend and I was literally pooping my pants (ok not literally!!!) before hand but it kept me sooooo busy i felt much better normal! so many people came round and i was dreading having all the visiters..... my parents, my bfs parent, my nan, some friends, bfs bro and gf, bfs friends and i actually enjoyed all the company!!!!!! I had a few moments but wacked a mint in my mouth and tried to carry on and i DID!!!! Surprised myself infact!
Have you tried looking into the mirror and telling yourself all the things you are afraid of? and then all the things you are grateful for - its wierd how it makes you feel a bit better, but only works if its done outloud and in front of a mirror in my case.
I am the same as you in terms of my anxiety affects my stomach - my main symptoms are nausea and ibs effects. But if i am doing something new or different i kind of forget about them.... (swimming is a new thing for me as basically i suck at it!!!!! so i have to really concentrate on keeping my head above water haha) takes my mind of things and isa good form of exercise meaning i am tired in the evenings and sleep better. Do you do any activities that your not very good at so to speak/ tried learning something new? Its amazing the focus it provides.
no internet set up at new house yet tho, so am missing this forum a bit. (just at parents at the mo - collecting 200more bags of clothes which i have no where to put lol) but i will try and check in with you again soon!
Chin up matey, you are doing your best and your best is good enough!!!!! xxx
Jemlou, thank you for a very inspiring post. I find it easy to point out the achievements of others, and in my good moments I can be proud of my own, but when I feel anxious it's like all the good stuff stops meaning anything - not in a depressive way, it's more that the anxiety overwhelms everything and makes it hard to see things from a positive perspective.
Claire Weekes has it down perfectly when she says people in our situation are tired or exhausted. It makes such a difference when we are feeling rested, and my good days coincide with feelings of restfulness.
I guess I've gone from blanketing myself with support, to looking out for myself (or trying to). It's a bit of a shock to be honest.
I actually started getting into Warhammer (embarrassingly enough) as the idea of building and painting something has always been scary to me and I thought it would be a nice, deep hobby to get into and a chance to do something totally different. I might be able to develop my creative side in a way I never thought of before. The anxiety has chucked all that out of the window - for now.
Jemlou, you seem to be doing very well and you've given me a few solid ideas to work with. After the heightened anxiety of the past days, I can only say: thank you.
I should just add, I have a real brainwave today: I put my Claire Weekes mp3s onto a USB stick so I can listen to them on the way to and from work - today was the first day I did this and it really helped me to enjoy the journey. I didn't get much benefit from it on the way back as a Porsche 911 Carrera started chasing me on the duel carriageways, although my battered Impreza STi managed not to embarrass me!
Hey Poet, where did you got those mp3's? Sounds like a good idea, I can use them on the train, where my anxiety goes through the roof.
Yeah it is hard to point out your own positives i agree! I also struggle with that myself! But I guess thats what the forum offers us all - support and encouragement! You def arent the only one that struggle, I find it easy to read through your posts and pick up all the positives (which there are lots of!) but sometimes on a bad day I cant see any of my own!!!! we will get through it tho because thats what we do!!!
Oh good idea listening to them on the way to work! I've not tried her stuff but I am going to as it has been highly recommended by a few people not just yourself on here.
Well I wish my battered MG would try not to embarrass me - yesterday the door wouldnt open from the inside and i had to clamber out the other door in the supermarket car park with people looking at me like a was a complete fruit loop! Nearly broke my neck haha - when I got out only then did it occur to me that i could have just wound the window down and stuck my hand out and used the outside handle! Stupid car! haha.
Had a docs appoint today and upping, my dose to 20mg - very nervous as it makes me feel pants - will sort out a post of my own infact to not hog yours!!!!
Jem
Hi everyone! Today has been a GOOD day!!
This morning I took the step of going out with my mate before work. To me, this is a HUGE change in my way of life and it caused me a great deal of anxiety - I've let my mate down twice in the last 2 weeks, so today was the day to turn that around.
Although I was quite agitated to begin with we had a really good time playing with his kid and the dogs, and laughing at adults making idiots of themselves on Ceebeebies. I was more laid back at work than I've been in weeks and although the negative thoughts tried to come back a few times, well, I've been listening to Claire Weekes and I am taking on board the things she says, so I was able to relax and not allow the feelings of fear to take over.
The feelings tried to return on the way home but after listening to more of the mp3s I was ready to listen to some music for the rest of the journey. I've been ok all evening.
As for the car-clambering episode Jemlou, all I can say is D'OH!
:D
So pleased you had a good day and fun with your mate. These days or half days or even 10 minutes of feeling good, these are the times you need to hold onto, as they are telling you that you are heading in the right direction! Keep up the good work!! :yesyes:
Hi Heavenly! You speak words of wisdom - are you Mr Miyagi in disguise? :D
Today I woke up feeling nowhere near as anxious as normal. While I still only got about 6 hours' sleep and am consequently knackered (again), I am still buzzing from a day that was largely anxiety-free. I did have moments at work yesterday where I could feel it coming back but I breathed deeply, relaxed into it, made some notes for counselling tomorrow (I find it helpful to occasionally indulge the obsession rather than resist it or distract from it all the time) and got on with my work.
My dad just told me he's noticed a big change in me this week. Don't get me wrong, until yesterday this was quite a tough week, but I am much happier in the evenings when I get home these days where before I'd be nervous, upset and phoning the Samaritans. I have now only made two attempts to phone for support in two weeks; one where I got through, the other where Anxiety UK were engaged so I didn't actually speak to anyone.
Listening to Claire Weekes in the car has been a masterstroke. I've got myself a better mp3 player now with much longer battery life but once more, I no longer obsess with self-help mp3s and listen only to Claire Weekes in the car and one very relaxing mp3 when I wake up early.
If I'd taken my mate up on his offer to visit him last Friday before work, instead of putting it off until yesterday, I might have reached this crucial point much sooner.
I am no longer dreading that funeral on Friday although I'm not looking forward to it. I've got a lot to discuss with my counsellor and I was going to ask her for tips about not "relapsing", but I realise I already know what to do: relax, breathe deeply and tell myself not to be bluffed by thoughts or bad memories. This is a skill I will be developing and I believe it will be essential to recovery, probably more essential than anything else!
I'm starting to think bad memories of our worst suffering are what really keep us trapped in anxiety and depression.
I get random images popping into my head, like images of the countryside where I've been with my dad, and it shocks me and makes me feel upset and ill - but I don't know why. I guess it just reminds me of times where I was out and about but feeling low. I want to blunt the impact of these moments because they send me straight back into a state of anxiety.
such a postive post there matey! big thumbs up! Great that you challeneged yourself to going with your friend and then even better that you enjoyed it and are still buzzing from it.
Yes i think you are right about bad memories, for me even photos when i look at some from the past year, i dont see what everyone else sees, which is a 25 year old woman, smiling and enjoying life..... I see beyond that fake smile to how I was really feeling at the time - a mess basically and I am surprised at how well we manage to hide things for so long....
Big well done for the success tho! lovely to read!
Hi everyone!
Jemlou - Thanks, it's good to be able to post something positive at last and really FEEL it. I am definitely starting to come out of the "blip" through a combination of self-help and therapy, but this is mainly because my whole attitude towards the illness is changing. Instead of being overwhelmed by fear, I try to "let go" of my tension when I feel it build - this is something I have NEVER been able to do, and I am learning it day by day.
By letting go rather than tensing up, the whole escalation process is avoided: I react not with fear or distress (although this is something I'm still learning and is not something that suddenly comes to you overnight), cos if I did that I am simply adding more fear to the initial flash of anxiety - THAT's what traps you in the anxiety loop, or the cycle of worry as I call it in the Guide (which is still being updated on my computer). You add fear to fear.
Therefore, you neatly sidestep the punch of panic. Life is not like the Rocky films, you cannot take every single hit on the chin. If you do that you end up a wreck.
So if you RELAX and remember that you are simply being affected by bad memories of your earlier suffering, you stick to your coping strategies and most of all you DO NOT CREATE MORE TENSION BY RESISTING THE ANXIETY, well, in the last two years I have found NOTHING more effective than that.
Paulmoldeeside - I really appreciate that mate, thank you. I'm glad you are doing so well. Unfortunately there are times I think "ooh Christ I wish I hadn't POSTED that" but that's by the by ;)
So here is how I got myself out of the pit of anxiety:
* Put Claire Weekes on my car's mp3 player (reduces the fear of going to work)
* Breaking the morning habit of worry - going out with my mate, listening to music, talking to family, setting myself up with things to do on my days off
* Taking deep, relaxing breaths, and smiling as I breathe out
* Gently, respectfully declining to allow flashes of panic and worry to escalate (not adding fear to fear)
* Declining to allow bad memories to dictate how I feel now, or to shape my view of tomorrow - reminding myself that these are only thoughts and memories and are of no consequence
* Making sure I eat when I'm hungry and not simply surviving on adrenaline
* Not missing a dose of citalopram
* Taking inositol powder morning and night
PyschoPoet - great post.
Looks like you are doing something similar to me. I'm currently on week 3 of Jon Kabatt-Zinn's Guided Mindfulness Meditation audio CD, picked it up on Amazon. I think its going to really help long-term.
Hi Slowfish! I've got some Mindfulness stuff, I haven't got into it yet though. I've been with my mate and his girlfriend today, had lunch and a good laugh for a few hours, but when I thought of coming home I started to feel upset and scared again - and I've had patches of feeling upset today. I think this is because of counselling to be honest.
Still, I'm home now, I've been helping Mum around the house and I'm about to spend a couple of hours reading in the back garden. When I get nervous I start to get an agitated feeling like I need to be doing something - this can lead to me questioning my entire existence, which is something I must learn to control and eventually overcome, as it is one of the worst parts of my anxiety/depression. In fact it might be the root of it. I'm sure many of you know this feeling.
So, I've learned that I may be at my worst when I'm at home with a few hours to kill. At least I am getting some kind of perspective on this. In 2009, the fear of being at home was a lot worse than it is now and I had no real defence against it. This time it's different. A significant part of my first recovery was overcoming the fear of being at home. I'll just have to do it again, but do it properly this time.
Well this is the start of my third week on 20mg of cit. Unlike 2009, I feel that I can stick on this dose rather than increasing. I know this means I will continue to have more bad days and feel some anxiety, but that's precisely why I need to stay on 20mg. If I increase my dose and the anxiety goes away, I might find myself with no motivation to carry on with therapy. I'm making a choice here - I'm not a helpless victim and I'm not a martyr, I'm doing what I think is right.
Counselling made me feel rough yesterday and this was not pleasant after two consecutive days of being well. I tend to feel empty and lost after counselling, wondering how I'm going to make it through another week alone. To be honest I need support after therapy so today I rang Anxiety UK just to vent. I'm not going to bother counting the times I ring for support. If I need it I'll get it, if I can do without I'll do without.
I thought the cit side effects were dying down but now I'm anxious again I feel really sick and headachey - I have always been a hypochondriac and I think this is why I suffer worse from side effects than many people. Also, I am still waking fairly early each day even if I go to bed late, and the tiredness is certainly a factor in my anxiety and side effects.
I have never had a defence against my hypochondria - it links directly into my fears about death - if I'm going to be able to enjoy the rest of my life the hypochondria has got to go. My health anxiety has definitely improved over the last 2 years but it is clearly still here and it's still an issue.
My doctor told me the stronger the side effects are the more likely it is to work. I guess the side effects indicate that the drug is strongly blocking the serotonin re-uptake, and you need time to adapt to that.
you sound like me - i feel sick because i obssess about feeling sick, and if i feel fine i'm like "oh i dont feel sick - immediatly then i get nausea)
Ok so conselling made you feel pants and you didnt have the best day but you have had a couple of really positive days so a bad day was bound to wriggle its way in there sometimes soon wasnt it.
Yeah remember its not a fail to ring anxiety uk they are just another tool in your recovery - its great if you dont need to call, but its ok if you do! it doesnt mean your going backwards its just getting some extra help...
being tired defo wears you down tho! but your doing great! xx
Hi everyone, thank you for your replies. It's true that the cit does work for me, it just takes time to get used to its effects. I keep telling people that the early days of recovery are the hardest because the apparent backward steps are hard to deal with once you've started feeling better. Funny how easy it is to tell people that but how hard it is to accept myself.
I could have done with a few extra hours' sleep today (it's all these early mornings, they're tiring me out) but I had the funeral to get through. Actually everything went ok, I just felt that my family stayed too long in the pub afterward as I've got plans for this evening, so again I have lost the chance to get some rest.
When I think about how the negative thoughts (which, again, are basically memories) make me actually FEEL, my mind goes straight to my stomach, which Claire Weekes says is the epicentre of our condition. When I think about it like this, it is nowhere near as scary and tends to go away until the thoughts strike again.
Did you know that scientists recently discovered that bacteria which naturally occurs in our gut can influence our mood? They think this might be a partial explanation of nervous illness eg anxiety/depression.
Had a good evening out with my mate and I'm going to bed now, a bit earlier than usual. Felt burned out in my head all day - that's not just tiredness, that is definitely the cit. I forgot how much I hated being on 20mg of cit. Hopefully this burned out feeling will bugger off soon.
The negative thoughts stab me in the temples like spears and I am trying to adapt to them so they don't ruin my mood. I know that dealing with these is critical not just to my recovery, but to my overall enjoyment of life. It helps a lot that I recognise exactly where the main threat lies.
Also I hope I start sleeping later in the mornings. Waking up at 7am is not exactly a worst-case scenario (even though I work 12-8 shifts), but I could do with a couple of extra hours' kip per day. I learned a bad habit in school: staying up late to delay the arrival of tomorrow. I have never shaken this habit. It's become a phobia that still plagues me 16 years after I left school. So when I wake early, I am tired and run down for the whole day, and the whole cycle repeats.
There are certain people who are utterly consumed by the way they feel - I am one of them. Much of my suffering is caused by me, being unable to shut my brain off to get some peace. This is a problem I've ALWAYS had and it's led to me being a permanently wired, nervous, over-exciteable person who is not fully in control.
What I've started doing is calming myself down when I feel good so I don't get too giddy (without ruining my good mood). So the breathing and relaxation techniques that help me when I'm feeling anxious also help me when I start to get hyper. A nervously ill person tries to do too much on limited resources and getting over-excited is just as bad for your energy level as being anxious.
I guess my point is that we are all operating with very limited (and therefore very precious) reserves of strength, resilience and stamina, and our anxiety eats up a load of those reserves before we get a chance to use them. So it makes sense that we should avoid placing extra stress on ourselves by taking too much on or expecting too much from ourselves, and we should try to replenish our resources through relaxation and acceptance (and validating our own strengths and achievements) as much as anything else.
EDIT: If a lot of this stuff sounds negative, I'm sorry, I don't mean it like that. I guess tonight is a night of revelations and most of them are bad. But at least now I know what I've got to deal with.
Hi all, had a couple of good days. It feels like I'm starting to actually make progress with re-training my thoughts.
Something Claire Weekes said which I've already mentioned feels like it has the answer. It's about our anxious states being prolonged/made worse by a collection of bad memories. What I find is that when I actually examine my upsetting thoughts, they are nearly always of my past but distorted to feel very painful or depressing, with these feelings and images projected onto my imagined future.
So in effect, I am expecting to experience those bad things over and over again, as if my life is simply stuck in a repeating loop.
Now that I'm getting better at coping with these thoughts, it seems more and more obvious that much of my pain is nothing more than memories and imagination. I am starting to see the logical mechanism which lies behind the anxiety loop. Many people will argue there is no logic whatsoever to anxiety and depression but I am finding that there is structure, there are patterns, and therefore anxiety and depression are not unfathomable monsters of destruction. They obey a set of rules which do not change.
Today I had to work a full day without my team. I was privately dreading it but didn't say anything. Instead of seeing it as a gruelling ordeal, I tried to view it as an opportunity to learn and develop my coping skills. You know what? It worked. I brought a book and an mp3 player for lunchtime, but I have started needing the Claire Weekes stuff less over the last couple of days; I don't need quite so much reassurance, and I am actually learning and practising what she says. (The book, in case you were wondering, is not a self-help book, it's Prospero Burns. It's superbly written and I love the characters, but I'm up to page 300 and nothing has actually happened yet.)
I feel that I am getting closer to vanquishing my anxiety. This won't be any time soon but I am starting to see the chance of a life free from the prison my anxiety has built for me.
Hello, glad you had a good couple of days, and it sounds as tho you are really starting to get underneath all the layers that anxiety uses as boundries to protect itself, you are breaking them down one at a time or at least understanding more and more about how to break through the next one.
I find your posts fasinatating as you never seem to really be just feeling sorry for your self you are always working away in the background doing something positive to overcome your fears.
well done to you for getting out and about this weekend and a massive well done for getting through the funeral - as you were quite worried initially about it, but you did it! big thumbs up to you lovely.xx
Hi, thank you! :D I wish I DIDN'T feel sorry for myself. I've got a real problem with doing this! That doesn't come across in my posts on NMP.
I was starting to think that anxiety and depression could not be fought with logic but they do obey certain rules and this takes a lot of the fear away from them. I'm convinced that fear is the overriding problem and I am re-training my thinking so that I am less afraid of what I'm going through. I am really starting to think that I am finding my way out.
There's still a long way to go, loads of bad memories to replace with new, happy ones. I am coming down to the major core issues and my next few counselling sessions will be dedicated to them.
This is my third good day in a row, the first time I've had this many consecutive happy days in two months. Actually today started when I woke from a bad dream and I had that horrible, frazzled feeling, but I was able to overcome it. Normally that frazzled feeling would be a harbinger of anxiety.
Hi, I slept for over 8 hours today which is the first time in a while I got this much sleep. I felt quite low when I woke unfortunately - when I feel depressed it's like the anxiety without the anxiety, if that makes any sense. A cold, creeping sense of fear comes over me a few minutes into the depression. I got up, had a shower and I've got plenty of time before I need to go to work, and my spirits are already lifting. At this moment I don't really know how to deal with the occasions where I feel low without the anxiety/panic. I use my usual coping strategies and they are quite effective - I just HATE feeling low like that, especially when I should be pleased about getting a good kip.
Still yesterday turned out to be a good day and I have high hopes that today will be the same. I know basically what I need to deal with and I have started working towards that, so we'll see what my counsellor says in 2 days... I can't believe I've made it through three working days without really having a problem. Funny how a week can seem so long when you're anxious but it goes quite quickly when you're feeling ok.
EDIT: Has anyone else noticed how hopeless and doomy you feel when you're at your worst, like you cannot enjoy life and you can't do anything to cheer yourself up, but when your spirits start to lift you find yourself contented and enjoying life without having to do anything special?
Had a bit of a crap day today. Technically there was nothing wrong, I just felt down when I woke up, and when I got to work I found out there's been a cock-up at my bank which has left me overdrawn by two grand.
My two main problems at the moment are feeling down, which comes as a shock and is still very hard to deal with, and the feeling of tension in my head. My coping strategies don't seem to work against these problems and because I fear them, they are keeping me trapped in a state of anxiety and upset. Hopefully tomorrow will be better! Ironically I would have enjoyed today if it wasn't for these things, which is a big improvement over previous bad days!
funkymonkey
12-04-11, 21:17
Sorry to hear that you had a rough day but glad also that you can see where there is still some improvement eh? Have to say though that 2k overdrawn would be a test for most peeps I guess lol!!!!!
Yeah it was very harsh and I'm glad I didn't lose the plot!
I'm still afraid of the depression and weird feelings in my head (although the head-feelings are probably cit side effects to be honest). I'm trying to lose my fear of things, and while that is working in general these are still the early days and I can still get lost in fear.
I'll be spending some time discussing this with my counsellor in 2 days.
Well the low mood has gone but I'm very tired and I need to do something about going to bed so late. Like I said, this has been a problem for years. I freak out at the thought of going to bed early most of the time. So tiredness is one of my major problems, it always has been, and I'm sure it contributes to my lifelong negative outlook and lack of motivation. Funny how this whole issue has become a big, frightening thing for me, when it's simply a matter of getting more sleep!
I am finding it hard to accept my "fear of fear" and I still over-react when I feel low or anxious. I simply do not know how to achieve acceptance. Acceptance is normally something that just "happens" to me one day. Maybe the same will be true of this anxiety.
On the other hand I continually remind myself that I am trying to change the habits of a lifetime and I've only been doing this for a few weeks. I accept that negative thoughts are not hard-wired into us, they are learned. I know that my anxiety, my nervous thoughts, bad memories etc, follow the same pattern every single time and I know that I am "sensitised" to them which makes the sudden strike of anxiety feel much worse.
I don't know how my problems first started in childhood, it doesn't matter anyway because it was too long ago for the original cause to count for anything, but I am sure that I suffered from "seperation anxiety" as a child and this was never properly resolved, leading to low confidence, feelings of sadness and loneliness and the inability to cope on my own. This in turn made me feel vulnerable, a victim of life, and led to hypochondria and other problems.
Finally, the difference between my good and bad days is that during the good days, I am successfully able to take care of myself: reassure myself, distract myself, take interest in the world around me. When I'm having a bad day I am clingy and desperate for someone to make the fear go away; I withdraw into myself and surround myself with introspection about my problems.
If anyone is still reading this thread, you're seeing someone starting to make sense of their suffering. So it proves that nervous illness can be understood. Nervous illness is not a terrifying, unconquerable monster - it just feels that way when you're lost in anxiety.
We are all trapped by our fear of fear!
I'm aggitated about my lack of sleep, 3-5 hours a night now for the past 18 months. The two weeks before my health scare that triggered my anxiety I can remember on holiday sleeping from 11pm to 9am solid for the whole week. Anxiety about poor sleep is the god damn cause of the poor sleep.
Hi Mohc! Yes, the "fear of fear" is what does it. We get the inital flash of panic and then we seize on it, tense up, then inevitably end up withdrawing into our own little world of fear. Recovery comes by breaking this habit, re-training ourselves to accept the flash of panic without freaking out. It's about letting go rather than holding on.
I know that for myself and many people I speak to on NMP, holding onto our fear seems important somehow, like if we let it go we'll be empty or something terrible might happen.
I had counselling this morning and it was very productive. We still didn't have enough time to discuss everything but we are really getting to the core of things now.
I accept that the negative feelings which come afterward are simply a normal reaction, the counsellor has gone, the "safe" feeling has dissipated and it's down to me once more. This really affected me last week but today it's not so bad.
I have been dreading today because it's a day off which I'm spending at home. However after discussing this with my counsellor and trying to resolve the conflict of feeling safe and scared about being at home, I feel like I am ready to start treating days off like ordinary days, rather than holding them in special regard for anxiety.
We discussed how bad memories and negative associations seem to be a major problem at this point. I also told her that I feel terrified and distressed on the occasions where I feel low or depressed instead of anxious; she told me to treat the depression in the same way as anxiety, by using my coping mechanisms and distraction.
While I do intend to try this, I feel that the cure for nervous illness lies in acceptance as Dr Claire Weekes says; acceptance that some anxiety is normal, some days will be bad days, recovery is happening and I can come out of low moods. The low moods hit me this hard because I am still afraid of them, therefore I haven't accepted them.
I had a meeting at work yesterday and started feeling really bad. I realised that the bad memories of previous suffering were responsible. I was able to simply let these memories go for the first time, and I realised that my negative feelings were just normal anxiety which I was able to resolve within a few seconds. It was the memories that made me feel so rough: memories of times when I didn't understand what I was going through and therefore felt helpess, hopeless, sad and scared. I know now what is happening, I know the mechanism by which anxiety works, and my life has moved on a lot since those dark days in 2009.
How many people are actually suffering from BAD MEMORIES, which fool them into thinking they are still nervously ill?
Well thats positive, that you arent feeling as daunted my everything this week after your session :)
Have been listening to Claire weekes myself, I can totally relate to so much of what she says and i agree we do try and hold it all together and this just cuases tenseness and anxiety, its hard tho isnt it to accept. I mean I find some of the symptoms easier to accept than others.
Great stuff about your "practice" session yesterday in your meeting then, infact i;d say thats a massive step forward you really got a handle on dealing with it and managed to carry on your day! Brill. Well done you!
Thanks Jemlou! I was dreading working 5 days through and although I had a fairly tough time on Tuesday and Wednesday, I still enjoyed my evenings at home and I was very relaxed yesterday. When the nervous/anxious feelings come on today at home I simply breathe deeply, use my coping strategies and distract myself with my hobbies and it's going ok so far.
EDIT: Well it's now after midnight and I had a good day; this was a chance to further my recovery by proving to myself that I can have a good day at home. I proved it. But I'll need to prove it again and again until it sinks in, and enjoying myself at home becomes a habit once more. I'll keep you posted and I hope that people continue to draw inspiration from this thread.
Hi everyone, hope you are all enjoying the sun. If not, don't worry, have faith in yourself and one day you will. :D
I was keeping a mood and sleep diary and reading it to my counsellor during each session. She told me I have no real sleep-related problems and I know my early waking is down to a habit caused by weeks of anxiety. So now I'm just keeping a mood diary. I tend to have several good days followed by several anxious ones. Normally the days leading up to counselling (and my days off) are tougher. I still believe this is because I spend more time pondering my illness and thinking of things to tell my counsellor. On good days I am not really thinking about anxiety etc, I'm getting on with my life.
I have started "narrowing the field" to a few key negative thoughts, feelings and memories. I am not used to feeling anxiety-free, I am not used to feeling positive for long stretches of time, and I still have morbid fears about death, suicide and so forth. I have actually started writing these thoughts down along with how they made me feel and what triggered them.
There are very clear patterns being established. A negative thought/memory or "flash" of fear occurs to me, then I'm whisked back into a world of introspection. I sometimes find it hard to drag myself out of this. On the other hand I have realised that I'm suffering from the "hangover" effect of citalopram, my stomach feels nauseous at the same time as I feel anxious, and I have realised that I am still afraid of these side effects even though I overcame them before and they are easing slightly with each passing week.
So I am getting closer to the "core" fears. My counsellor tells me to ignore and distract myself from negative thoughts when they occur but I fully believe that if I'm ever going to be free, I need to RESOLVE these thoughts and emotions. I think that's the way out for me. If I can resolve them, they won't come back to plague me in years to come.
There are so many individual fears and neuroses but it all boils down to accepting them, resolving them and moving on from them. Once I learn how to do this I believe I will be able to deal with issues as they arise without having to write laundry lists of thoughts and feelings.
I really do feel like I am getting somewhere with this.
Hi everyone, I've had 5 really good days in a row, smashing my previous record (although I'm trying not to keep too close a count!). Sunday, a day I had been dreading, was one of the best days of my life. I am quite sunburnt.
My mood has lifted so much and my coping strategies are working so well that I have started planning for my future again: trying to book days off, ordering myself a white Samsung Galaxy S, planning to repair and maybe modify my Impreza and so on. Four weeks ago I felt flat, like I would never be able to feel happiness again, but recently I have found myself enjoying life in a simpler, deeper way. Part of this is because of the cit but it's mainly due to my positive thinking, my understanding of how my illness works, and the more active role I have started playing in life. I've started taking more joy in my car despite its rather ragged condition.
My car looks like the one on the right:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q255/nopoet406/wrx3.jpg
So, after a few bad months, it is all starting to come together. I am going to ask my counsellor if we can now focus on facing, accepting and moving on from bad memories, and I also find myself too attached to friends and family rather than being capable of trusting myself to face life on my own terms. I think I'll be in counselling for a while; I'm sorting myself out once and for all.
That post of yours filled my heart. Keep up the good work!! :D
Thank you :D
Well I've now had 8 good days in a row but the anx came back a bit this afternoon, mainly due to tiredness. I've been so happy all week, and I got up early this morning to get a few things done before counselling. I was watching a film with my brother this afternoon and the anx struck about halfway through. We haven't watched a film together for ages so I was somewhat worried that it would evoke bad memories of the days I was ill.
Since the film, I've lost the "buzz" I've had for eight blissful days, but I'm trying not to worry; I have some very bad blips in the past and I have discussed these horrible memories with my counsellor. She said at the moment I need to focus on the present, but said if I do want to get into exploring my past to lay those bad memories to rest, I need to get referred on to a psychotherapist.
When we discussed my progress over the last week she actually asked me if I still need to see her. I said yes as I don't want to give up on therapy as soon as I feel well. We are going to consider switching to fortnightly sessions after my session next week.
So as I said I have felt rough all afternoon but this is a combination of tiredness, exertion and citalopram, and I am not letting it get me down.
8 good days is a massive massive improvement tho isnt it! bound to have a bad day but you are really doing brilliently!
Really fantastic. you will get through the odd bad day and enjoy the good ones all the more
Well I wish I had '8 good days in a row'!
It's important not to dwell when we do have 'bad days' Poet. Don't let it mar or undo the progress you've made. It's not a sign of failure - it's the natural progression of the recovery process. I think you're astute enough to recognise triggers - so you can see areas where perhaps more work is required. When I have a bad day I know it will be followed by a good one - eventually. Don't let secondary fears creep in, compounding the problem - ie, fear of failure, regressing, despair etc.
I don't believe there is an 'ideal' recovery and at times it feels like one step forward, one step back. But you're still moving forward - slowly but surely. It's where you are that's important, not how many steps you've taken to get there.
Continue your good work.
Tha.ks guys, it means a lot to hear you say that. Im still working on reducing my fear of fear with marginal success but at least there has been some movement. At themoment I'm feeling dizzy, weak, headachey and nauseous. I've been taking 2x10mg cit pills, could this be the cause?
Certainly sounds like the culprit. Maybe try 15mg if it continues but I'm sure it will pass. How long have you been on 20mg?
About 5 weeks now mate! Couple of my mates reckon it's hayfever, which apparently make you feel dreadful. If there's nothing to worry about, we find something, eh? Recovering from anxiety is like pulling weeds, new and unexpected kinds spring up all over!
Well I think I've entered a new phase of my illness/recovery. I find the negative thoughts which troubled me so much before have receded, to be overtaken by the fear of my physical symptoms: the painful pressure in the temples (which has got a lot worse lately), the chest symptoms (which is a mixture of anxiety and acid reflux) and the sense of nausea.
I think I just don't tolerate citalopram that well. I fear these physical symptoms because I have trained myself since childhood to be terrified of feeling unwell. Even when I catch a cold I am frightened that it will turn into a serious chest infection and I freak out if I don't feel better after a week.
So now I am forced to confront this issue. I find that if I'm not worried about the pain in my temples, my nausea kicks in and I worry about that. It's got quite bad over the last 2 days. On the other hand I know it's likely to be a combination of citalopram, tiredness and maybe hayfever, so I know there is nothing to worry about, I just do it out of habit and it catches me unawares.
So can the fact that I am currently taking 2x 10mg tablets instead of 1x 20mg tablet be responsible for the increase in my physical symptoms? It certainly seems to coincide. Then again it also coincides with the increase in air pollution and the high pollen levels, and although I don't feel bunged up or sneezy at all, I do have painful pressure behind my eyes and nose which might indicate hayfever, I've just never had it like this before (that I recall).
Anyone got any suggestions?
Well, I am not feeling quite as bad today and I wonder if the headache etc are just burnout after the weeks of illness and recovery. I am actually wondering if this is a good sign since it suggests I am no longer runnning on adrenaline?
Also, today I started a new tactic: positive reinforcement. I told myself over and over that "i am recovering and I love it" and "today is a good day" and, to my amazement, I found they lifted my mood and boosted my confidence for the whole day. This is something I plan to make extensive use of, and the fact that it actuslly worked shows I've been more successful at reprogrammingmy thinking than I realised - yet another victory giving me strong and undeniable hope for victory!
PP, positive reinforcement, this makes so much difference and the cit amplifies the positive thoughts even further. Our anxious brains have so much re-programming to do, but over time we will get there.
nausea and ibs are by far my worse symptoms and its so hard to try and focus on something else when you are feeling sick isnt it. I skip from one thing to another tho, I can suffer from a belly ache for weeks and then skip to a sore throat at which point my belly ache complelty dissepears - funny that isnt it!!! haha
You are doing really well tho and your last post is really positive.
Hi Mohc and Jemlou, thank you for your input.
Mohc, I cannot tell you how much difference positive reinforcement has made in the last few days. This never really worked before and even made me feel more anxious, but I have learned how to take a compliment, I have a strong belief (even if it's occasionally hidden behind clouds of anxiety) in my eventual recovery, and the Claire Weekes stuff has made me once again believe that a total, lifelong recovery is possible.
Jemlou - for me the headache has been worse but it's been nowhere near as bad these last few days. 20mg of cit is known for making me feel like crap physically, but it has helped me drag myself out of the pit, so who cares!
Well things have got really tough at work, but I seem to have risen to the challenge; my stats these last two months have easily put me in the top 10% out of nearly 3,000 people, and I have just scored 100% on my quality, something only one other person on my team of 12 has managed. So things are far tougher to the point of being unfair, but I have risen to the top. How does that work?
My team leader said she could tell there has been something wrong with me these last months but has recently seen a "100% turnaround" in my attitude. Before, I could on occasion be quiet, snappy, demotivated, angry, but now she says I have totally gelled with the team. She said she loves me to bits (she actually used those words), she says the team have told her how much I make them laugh (unfortunately this isn't always intentional!), and she says I have become extremely positive in my attitude towards my customers and my job.
Two-three months of hell seem to be paying off gradually, but with increasing momentum. Recovery can be like an avalanche, just as falling into illness can be. The negative side of our illness doesn't have things all its own way. Positivity can be just as powerful, if not more so, you just need to learn to accept it and roll with it. "Don't push the river" as they say, just let it carry you. It saves you monumental and pointless effort.
Another colleague who is new to our team told me yesterday that she has also seen a dramatic improvement in my mood and attitude yesterday. I did not ask her about it, she just told me. I am getting confident enough to trust my own feelings and my feelings are that I have come out of my withdrawn state and spend a lot more time having fun these days. So I don't go around asking people about how I come across any more. I guess this is the beginning of self-confidence.
I have had some low-lying anxiety for the last week and once again I note this coincides with days off, mornings before work, tiredness and also the continuing side effects of citalopram. I am feeling woozy and hungover this morning and I recognise this as the cit. (Also I always go to bed too late.)
I've changed to taking cit at night which to me represents a huge victory. I started this on Friday night and I wasn't so tired or drained on Saturday. Hopefully this strategy is going to help out and I'll be sleeping through any side effects.
Unfortunately I just realise I took a dose this morning and a dose last night, FFS, so today I am effectively on 40mg. I'll probably feel knackered by 3pm. So I'll skip tonight's dose and resume tomorrow at 9pm.
Does not sound good, try to keep the dose constant. If I am in doubt, I skip a dose. I take all my pills at night all at the same time.
For me, skipping a 10mg dose does nothing at all. I think there is always some level left from the previous pill, or else the whole thing is one hell of a placebo. :D
Good luck.
Hi, I had no real side effects from buggering about with my dose and I am now overdue for tonight's dose (I hate changing an established pattern). From now on I'll be setting an alarm for 9pm every night until I get used to it.
Taking the pills at night does seem to make a difference as I am less tired at work and I have more energy when I'm out with my mate playing with his little daughter and their dogs. I can actually jump around on their trampoline now without needing to sit down after 2 minutes.
My recovery seems to be moving on slowly, as I am still sometimes troubled by upsetting thoughts and feelings and I still get some headaches and uncomfortable head sensations from the cit. I recognise these sensations from 2009 and now I know it's just the meds - this caused me a shitload of anxiety back in the day and seemed far more severe because of it.
I still have distressing or uncomfortable moments and I am worried that I won't be able to get past these moments. When it happens I find I don't want to do my coping strategies, it's easier to be consumed by the anx, which is obviously the way straight back to a blip.
I've noticed that my blips are not as severe or noticeable this time round and I feel this shows how much progress I've made. I am doing better at work than I've done anywhere else and my scores are very impressive. This of course leads to fears that it's all too good to be true, it's a symptom of mania or some other illness, or it's all going to come crashing down...
So you can see how deeply entrenched the negative thinking is in me and this entrenchment is making it very hard to break free. But in my lighter moments I have no doubts whatsoever that it will happen in time.
Hi, I'm back to taking the pills at night and I am still finding that I am less tired in the day and am starting to find it easier to wake up in the mornings. So my advice about taking the dose is: once the increase in your anxiety level begins to climb back down, switch to taking them an hour or more before you go to bed.
I won a bottle of wine and some sweets at work for achievements at work over the last month. I got a round of applause from all the section managers and a card thanking me for my work!
On the down side my Impreza engine has died, the entire bottom end of the engine has given up and it just sounds like grinding metal. I've spotted a Peugeot 406 coupe that I'm keen on:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q255/nopoet406/406coupe1.jpg
What do people think? (That's the actual car I am looking at)
I take my Cit at night, mainly to combat the nausea i get, altho my sleep has been a bit disturbed but over all it has worked for me.
Fantastic news on the acknowlegement at work - you should be really proud of yourself, as not only are you managing to hold down a job but your managing to hold down and do a brillient job!!!
As for the car - being a typical girl I would say.... its a nice colour ;P
Hi Jemlou, how long have you been taking cit at night? I have not had any sleep problems at all after switching to taking the cit at night and in fact I find it easier to wake up in the mornings and I am less tired through the day.
Well I heard it on the grapevine that this thread is still proving useful to people so here is today's update.
I spoke to my counsellor and also the Samaritans as I still need support and encouragement, and I have been struggling with that persistent, painful and very distressing fear that I will one day become suicidal. I think I made a breakthrough with this as I know the thought is not realistic and it is one of the few remaining issues from my illness.
I am starting to think I have recovered from the illness but I still need support to make sure the recovery takes a firm hold. My counsellor and I have agreed to stick with weekly sessions until I have overcome my fears about death, suicide and relapse, and also I have learned to balance my moods out, but we have also agreed that I have come such a long way that it's possible I am not "ill" any more or am reaching the stages where I am overcoming the illness. My problems are starting to be normal, everyday problems again. Issues of assertivenes and confidence, relationships, that sort of thing... what a relief it is to have normal problems again.
So at the moment it's mostly bad memories and irrational distressing thoughts that are slowing my recovery. Once I've overcome these, who know what will happen? I'm scared of recovery because I am overcoming* fears that I have had forever and I will feel empty without them. How perverse is that? But it's a bizarre, illogical fear. I'm scared that if I let go of my fears, I will simply fill up with depression and negativity which will be even worse than what I'm experiencing now.
So when you think about it, I am scared that if I let go of my fear, it will be replaced by the same fear! How could that possibly be? You can't let your fears go until you have accepted or overcome them. The very act of letting go of my fears suggests that I will be highly resistant if the fear tries to come back, so why should I be afraid...? This is giving me a headache. But it's the kind of tangle we need to unravel if we're ever going to be free. It's worse than peeling layers from an onion.
* Note the use of the word "overcoming", which means I have confronted and dealt with these thoughts rather than just burying, ignoring or denying them.
PS I'm picking my new car up tomorrow. It's not the car pictured above.
I've always taken it at night other than the couple of days i tried cit last year but it made me sick and then i didnt take it again - its been 6 weeks now, and when the doctor prescribed it this time he said to take at night to combat nausea.
I agree your post is useful, i'm struggling a bit the last few days but this forum does help
Hi jemlou, I've also benefited from taking cit at night and am glad I made the switch. I am speaking to my doctor this week about possibly switching to escitalopram as cit seems to give me lots of headaches. In the meantime I am still dealing with negative thoughts but they haven't been too bad lately; I am finding that I was in a blip last week and realising this made me suddenly start to feel better. My blips, touch wood, are not as bad these days and I do not get that horrible morning feeling any more.
Hi everyone, well it's been a few days now and in general I've had a nice week off work, but I've noticed that my anxiety has been up and down all week. I've had quite a few insights into the anxiety.
Firstly, I have been able to repel blips not once, but twice, beating them before they took hold. This is pretty significant as it is not something I've been able to do before.
Secondly, I have been able to talk myself out of going into anxious moods. Unfortunately as the week has gone by I have lost some of my ability to do this. It's the first time off I've had since I became ill and the fears about being at home have sparked off a weird kind of blip that I am still dealing with at the moment.
This second point made me realise something important. My anxious thoughts and my anxiety itself are starting to seperate. This means that while I still get anxious, it doesn't provoke so many negative thoughts. When I do get the negative thoughts, I have realised something critically important:
The content of my negative thoughts doesn't matter. The negative thoughts do not cause my blips. Instead, my anxiety has physical effects (tense feeling, feelings of anxiety and low mood), and mental effects (negative thoughts). Quite literally, I could think of ANYTHING while in a blip and it would seem terrible. Therefore, my negative thoughts are just a symptom of the anxiety and are being made worse by that anxiety.
It's a self-sustaining loop: I feel anxious, it triggers thoughts, those thoughts feed the anxiety and so on.
On the other hand, it's true that spending a lot of free time at home has made me more anxious in some ways. Now when I'm anxious instead of being bombarded by negative thoughts I feel cold, tense and like I've got those weird headache sensations (probably tension and unconscious jaw-clenching). So I get PHYSICAL symptoms rather than mental ones (negative thoughts).
Also I have taken one particular negative thought/image/memory and actually been able to make it positive and reassuring! Again this is a brand new type of victory and I am really proud of myself for achieving this. Basically I always had a weird sensation when seeing fields, particularly full of golden flowers, rising up against the blue sky. While most people would see this as beautiful I have always found it suffocating and claustraophobic, as if it was artificial and nothing was beyond the horizon. I very recently realised this is due to some almost-forgotten memory from childhood. With some effort (but not as much as expected) I managed to take the fear out of this scene by looking at it as beautiful and tranquil, which is how it should be! Now the thought actually gives me reassurance, where just 2 weeks ago it brought a sense of heaviness and depression!
Now don't get me wrong, on the whole I am still recovering, it's just that I am still going through up-down stages. The thing that helps me the most is to realise that in general I now have some power over my blips which I never had before, and that my anxiety and negative thoughts are starting to seperate, so hopefully I can focus on dealing with the root of the anxiety without being distracted by lots of symptoms.
Some encouragement or advice would be nice folks :)
Dragonsblonde
17-05-11, 09:35
Hey, well I have been gone for a while again, but have just caught up now with your thread and I have to say from the outside you are doing brillantly well and should feel justifiably proud of yourself for all that you have achieved so far!
One of the things you mention above is the seperation between physical and mental and I always think we need to remind ourselves of that regularly, especially when on Cit. I found that once the Cit had started to kick in properly my physical symptoms changed a lot and that scared me at first. Then I realised it was just the Cit helping me by putting a thin barrier between me and them, I still felt a panic attack, but rather just as a rush across my skin with no mental trigger of panic.
It allowed me to detach a little from one and concentrate on the other, so I could observe it for what it was without getting involved in it. (Hope that makes sense lol).
I am still on 20mg and have been on Cit for a year in July. Don't feel I am ready to come off of them yet (am in a blip at the moment lol), but my doctor has been great so far. I always find that when I start to take my mental health for granted (stop the meditation, ease up on the good practices of getting out and about with friends etc etc) is when I set myself up for a blip.
Anyway, as I say you are doing really well and you will make it
Poet
Thanks for your post, thought provoking as usual.
I wish you continued success in your recovery.
Elen
Hi there, I empathise with the physical and mental stuff, I really do. Past couple of weeks, I have had recurring headaches, nausea and feeling lightheaded. But I wasn't feeling anxious before I got these symptoms. So that confused me. But having these symptoms made me feel anxious as feeling unwell makes me feel anxious, so it's is a horrible vicious cycle, so I think we both need to keep working on how to separate the two, it sounds like you are at least working it out, you do inspire me, I really get a lot of help reading your posts. I need to try and the separate the two, that is the key. I need a bit of inspiration right now!! :wacko:
Hello everyone, thanks for the feedback and encouragement. It's been nearly 2 weeks since I posted in this thread! My last update seems like a lifetime ago. This is going to be a really long post so please stay with me!
There have been changes and most of them are positive. The negative ones are still a sign of progress, weirdly enough; beating one set of problems often allows us to see the underlying causes which are sometimes very different, so recovery can lead you on a long and random journey!
My last two counselling sessions have been almost excessively positive. My counsellor is delighted with my progress (but not as delighted as I am) and is very pleased I have responded to this type of therapy. The main reason for this progress is that as the weeks have gone by, I have actively taken on board our discussions and I have worked on specific points. Too many people who are nervously ill DO NOT DO THIS - they just complain about the same things forever.
When I started counselling she thought I wasn't strong enough for CBT. Now I'm thinking that I am ready to set myself tasks and targets in order to challenge and therefore strengthen my recovery. My body has a strong urge to move forward and be challenged. I am rediscovering a zest for life.
I've joined an online project to write reviews and make maps for a computer game. This has given me a tremendous opportunity to access my creative side and it's brought constant tangible results for all my hard work. The best thing is much of it is still ongoing and will be for a long time. So it's something to look forward to during my time off.
I am distracting myself a lot and enjoy working on my computer at home or relaxing with family and friends. Much of the "dread" I used to feel is now gone and I have had a high mood all week. I can't tell you how positive I've been for the last couple of weeks. My new car is proving popular and it's a real beauty which gives me all the practicality and performance I could want.
Now the bad stuff. It's all work related. Things have got tough and I've risen to the challenge, and I am consistently achieving high scores. My progress is so good that I've never really achieved like this in any other job. How is that bad? Well regardless of my achievements, I get talked to like crap by my colleagues and team leader. I am not very assertive in real life, I swing between being a doormat and being aggressive, and my counselling sessions are now focusing on this. I've downloaded a couple of EXCELLENT books about confidence and self-esteem to my new Kindle and I read them during my breaks at work. The whole work thing has put me on a downer though, bringing back a blip, and I am now having to deal with my first real anxious mood for a couple of weeks. I'm remembering Claire Weekes' words: blips seem worse as you get better, I have been through plenty of them and I KNOW that I WILL get over this one too.
So unhappiness at work has brought my anxiety on a bit (although I am still very far along the road to recovery). The general absence of anxiety over the last couple of weeks has given me breathing space to look around and realise many of my problems in life are caused by crippled self-esteem. Having anxiety again is tough and painful but to be honest I've got more important stuff to deal with!
So from now on I will be concentrating on improving my opinion of myself, increasing my confidence and learning how to be more assertive. I was going to change to fortnightly counselling sessions but am staying weekly due to making HUGE progress and, ironically, needing support and counselling more than ever.
Who knew that recovery could be a bitch?
My mate is now on citalopram 20mg, about time, and he has reported feeling a "pressure" inside his head that made it hard to concentrate, like his head was going to explode.
I'm still going through my blip and I feel like a little kid again, wanting to cry because it's time for school. Hopefully if I have a good day today it will put a real dent in this blip. I've got a weird headache, almost certainly stress and hayfever, but the headache and nausea always scare me even though I've discussed these with my counsellor.
dandanni2010
28-05-11, 12:22
I have been on 40mg of cit for 6 years now and over the 4 weeks I have reduced them by 10mg a week and am now cit free. It is only now 3 days of having no cit that i am experiencing slight dizzy moments, I am fine when laying down but when moving around i get minor dizzy spells that last for about 2 seconds, they almost feel like mini black outs. I feel sick and i'm very tired. I am more stressed at my 3 children but I am hoping this will all dissapear very soon.
Hi Dandanni, the dizziness does go away, it is a symptom of starting/finishing cit or changing your dose. Basically everything you said sounds like the effects of coming off cit. It does get easier over the coming days and weeks. It's not the ideal time to be stressed, so stay cool and keep going, you will be fine!
I'm still in a blip; it's definitely been started by taking more of an active role at work, as I have had a few "shocks" as I find it difficult to relate to some of the younger people who only want to go out and get pissed or take drugs. To them I probably seem really boring and strange, where to me they seem immature and empty headed at times. Fitting in to the world and not simply concentrating on myself has brought all kinds of new challenges. Also, my team leader quite frankly showed me where there is room for improvement despite my generally high scores; I do tend to let success go to my head so this is yet another thing I need to deal with. My team leader echoed what my counsellor said: I do not take criticism well at all and criticism is the reason I'm in this blip, not due to any fear of death or medication or whatever.
Unfortunately my blip continues, I've got the tension in my chest and a constant headache; I may ring NHS Direct simply to put my mind at rest. Fortunately I've got tomorrow off as well so I can have a rest.
It's very disappointing to feel like I've regressed by a few weeks but as Claire Weekes and Anxiet UK clearly say, it isn't YOU that has slipped back, it's your THOUGHTS. Curse these bad memories - they are so bad and so numerous I am simply nowhere near being free of them. The wounds are still too close to the surface.
The good news is I'm still doing well at work and keeping up with my hobbies, so in that respect progress is still being made. I want to use this blip to try to make progres towards recovery by effectively overcoming and defeating the blip.
Unfortunately I'm still in need of comfort and support; I always have and probably always will need a cheering section since at the moment I am not very good at motivating myself.
Sorry for the run of long posts but yet again the floodgates are opening.
I thought once again that my anxiety was conquered and for 2 weeks I've been concentrating on improving my confidence and self esteem. However, things have happened that have hammered both of these things. I now know why I always withdrew from the world; why I'm not in a relationship, why I'm still living at home, why I'm still scared of everything.
With all of these revelations coming so close after the apparent demise of my anxiety, it's thrown me straight back into the confusion and hurt. I'm also freaking about headaches I've been getting and when you combine all this, it adds up to another blip.
Part of me is upset that there is still so much to work through. The other half, the half that fought and finally accepted its way through anxiety, is whooping for joy: I've got new objectives and new horizons. Maybe now I'll learn to stop people talking to me like shit and otherwise taking advantage.
The major obstacle is the nearness of the anxiety. Maybe it's too soon to take all this on. I've got issues with self-esteem, relationships, motivation and time management. I can't really accept criticism and I definitely can't accept rejection no matter how I try.
I always delude myself that when I'm good at something, I should be totally superior at it. This is perfectionism and low self-esteem. It usually ends in bewilderment if I don't win or otherwise finish first, then self-berating, and a consequent low mood and lack of confidence.
Well I guess I've come this far, it's time to simply take this bull by its horns and confront my problems with the usual determination. Who knows where THIS journey is going to end up... my recovery from anxiety has led me back to the same situation in life, I'm just better equipped to face it.
Should I win the day, my life will probably end up totally different - I guess there's a message in there for me... I can only improve if I change some things.
I hope people will join me on this continuing journey.
Well, if anyone is reading this, it's time for me to vent again.
I'm still coming out of the recent blip. I guess I worked a few things out today and I realised I'm carrying too much. Sometimes when you take an active role in the real world you seem to "bounce off", and this doesn't help the low confidence thing. But the point is not to get too caught up in defeats, since defeats will ALWAYS come when you try something new - nobody ever really succeeds first try, and if they do the stress of maintaining that success can simply cause a stress explosion. Defeat teaches us lessons that are often so painful and shocking that we don't forget them.
I've been trying to deal with improving my confidence, joining in online projects, looking at my time management and generally taking too much on at once. My counsellor and I discussed this. We came to the conclusion that I'm trying to multitask far too often, and it will be better for me if I stick to just one or two things and complete them successfully, rather than giving myself permanent stress headaches and a number of new hang-ups by taking too much on and failing at all of it.
It's like with my stories and projects. I'm scattered across dozens of pieces of work - Doom levels, short stories, planned novels - and trying to finish all of them is a gargantuan task, almost impossible without total determination and hundreds of hours. The very idea of it stresses me out. I've had a permanent, bad headache which has contributed to my blip quite significantly, and it was diagnosed as tension yesterday. That diagnosis has taken the fear away and has shown me that I am failing to do what it best for me - what I discussed with my counsellor.
So I've been evaluating where I am now and what is keeping me trapped in this situation; why my anxiety keeps returning, and why when it does come back it has such a strong grip on me. I am paralysed in the rut I've created over the last 15 years. There are a number of reasons for this, and like my stories and Doom maps, they must be tackled one at a time until each has been finished completely and in detail.
I've FINALLY discovered why I am so paralysed. I've always known I am indecisive, ambivalent, but I never knew WHY. The search for answers has driven my recovery, it's improved my quality of life and has allowed me to help tens of thousands of fellow sufferers via the Citalopram Survival Guide. And the answers just keep coming.
I'm paralysed through indecision BECAUSE I ASSOCIATE BOTH PLEASURE AND PAIN TO CERTAIN IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE.
I love my family, but each of them has their own problems, some of which are quite serious, and I am terrified of something terrible happening to them, so while I love being with them they can trigger my anxiety.
I love being at home, but I've got so many horrible memories of anxiety that I am just completely confused by it sometimes, and the thoughts of being at home can be really unpleasant at times.
It's the same with work; I need a job but am so afraid of making my way in the world (away from the comfort of my home and family) that I rail against going to work. My self confidence is so low it can be excruciating to talk to the arrogant ****s I often deal with (and work with).
So I have dug up yet another layer, the deepest and darkest yet, and I'm bringing illumination to that darkness one painful day after another.
The blip is ending... but the journey continues.
Hi, I'm just wondering if anyone can give me any help or support on any of this?
LauraSmith27
03-06-11, 08:27
Hi Poet
I can relate to a lot of things in your post.
I am an absolute nightmare when it comes to multitasking too much. I too fail to do what's best for me and refuse to listen to my body when it is telling me to slow down. Before my major crash in January, I was on the go all the time - working, looking after the house, gigging (I'm a musician) and also trying to write a book. I now realise I can't do everything at once so I am going to cut my work hours when I return, postpone gigging for a while and just try to settle myself into taking one thing at a time instead of always rushing and exhausting myself.
I also get what you are saying about things in your life causing you both pleasure and pain. I love my family too, but they can so easily cause my stress levels to rocket. My mum also has anxiety and although I appreciate her support, sometimes she can be the worst person for me to be around. I feel stuck a lot of the time between wanting to see her and knowing she isn't good for me. Also, visiting my parents house creates a lot of anxiety related memories for me as it all started there.
The thing I struggle with the most is my love of music. On the one hand, it is a huge part of me and an incredible gift, but on the other, it's a curse. I love it so much, but at the same time, it can tip me over and cause me so much anxiety. I have really low confidence and still I manage to get on stage because I feel like I am wasting my talents if I don't. I wish it wasn't such a difficult thing for me as I just can't give it up.
Anyway, I hope this post helps.
Take care
Laura x
Hi Laura, I really appreciate that. While I've had a lot of support here, sometimes it feels like I'm just talking to myself!
I've started reading up on time management and have made some small changes, starting with listing the time I feel that I am "wasting" - and I already found that I am wasting up to 110 minutes in the morning before work! You should try this too, just list your average day, what you do in order that you do it and how long you spend on each item on the list. You will probably be surprised!
People in our situation are easily exhausted since we are living on adrenaline and we're constantly fighting an unwinnable battle in our mind. The key to breaking this cycle is to learn new, more positive habits: effective time management, relaxation and making sure we spend some "me" time every single day.
Instead of cramming a million things into each waking moment, concentrate on one particular task, making a conscious decision to ignore the other issues for the moment. It is the only way you'll make any progress: finish one task, then move on to the next.
Interestingly, someone told me something similar about coping with anxiety back in the early days. Deal with ONE problem, no matter how many issues are crowding for your attention, and ACCEPT that you are leaving other matters unresolved for now. I wish so much I'd actually listened and taken that in. I did eventually and it still helps me now. While I've only been working on my time management for a week or less, it's already reduced my stress levels and has given me a very powerful boost. It's good to be taking control again.
Hey lovely, i'm still about altho dont post much for the exact same reason you mentioned, i didnt think anyone was actually bothered about reading it and i was just talking to myself.
Sorry to hear about your blip, has one myself actually so know how frustrating it can be.
I tend to burn myself out taking on too much as i think i dont want to give anything up as it all helps me cope, for example pilates and swimming are new things which have really helped me deal with my anxiety good way of releasing it however after a full day at work then swimming or pilates then doing th horse, cooking dinner and spending time with my bf etc i'm knackered! so i find it hard to get a balance that is effective. They aid my recovery an di like to be doing productive things that make me feel good about myself but i oveer do it then leaving myself completly burnt out.
another example of this is i have 4 books on the go at the moment - why cant i just do one at a time..... haha
its as tho we fill our time to keep us busy and not focus too much on our problems and to an extent it works but over doing it causes us other issues.
Hope you are doing ok mate. xx
Dragonsblonde
23-06-11, 15:36
Been a while since I have been here at all and so have not been commenting at all.
I will say though about the comments re talking to ourselves on here. I think a lot of the time that is what most people who write blogs and updates end up doing, I know I did. However I don't really think that is a bad thing. What it allows us to do is talk openly in an environment, where whilst you may not get answers, you will never be judged harshly for your feelings.
Unlike the outside world where mostly we plaster smiles on our faces and go about our business, in here we can cry, vent, laugh (happily or like a maniac) and do it freely without constraint or fear. That's a healthy thing, so keep on writing, because you can look back at it when you need to see how far you have come or how bad you have felt in the past and still made it through.
As for the revelations - please don't see them as massive mountains to overcome. You are a smart guy, so break it down. The great technique of setting a time to think about these things - say from 4-5pm and only choose one of the things to think about. Say pick one family member a week to think about and work on that and that alone. When you have come to a level place in your mind about that, pick something else, but keep it within that time limit. That is a CBT excercise which I found so so useful as it mean't I wasn't just hiding things away or refusing to confront them, but i Wasn't allowing them to rule my life either.
If you feel up to CBT and your counsellor agrees it does tackle things like our usually wrong opinions of ourselves and need for reassurance or desire to conform etc. I didn't think it would do anything for me and yet I still find myself tackling problems by going back an revisiting that training.
I will just say, try not to be so hard on yourself. I remember once saying to be CBT mentor that my main fear was not being able to cope and she had me drill down further and further into it and then basically said "so what". If you can't cope, what does it actually mean and when I stared it right in the face it mean't nothing, just that I would actually cope with whatever it was because I alwyas had done in one way or another. These days I am much less demanding of myself and much more appreciative of my positives.
You can do it and you will do it, just give yourself the space and time to do it.
Wow, thanks for the replies ladies, I'd almost forgotten about this thread. I guess this thread marks a transitional point in my life. I am not the same person I was when I started this thread.
I've learned so much about myself and I have made huge strides towards changing my attitude towards almost everything. It's been quite overwhelming - so I learned how to break things down and deal with a specific thing at a time. Nothing is completely fixed yet. I have learned to think in terms of weeks and months rather than days. It's teaching me a kind of patience which I needed desperately (and still do).
Counselling has made a significant difference but I have put so much effort in. Sometimes I feel like I'm in danger of burning out. From what you both say, being on the edge of burnout is a common issue.
When we start feeling better, we're so giddy and so full of adrenaline we take on impossible odds. My team leader is trying to teach me this at work. I'm hoping to move to a better department and earn loads of bonus. Thing is, I have got a long way to go before I'm ready to move on from my current team (with all its attendant problems). I'm trying to change departments to build a life for myself, but ironically I need to build myself up and improve certain areas of my work to get there. So I can see why I have been accused of running before I can walk.
There's so much to say in counselling, far too much to cram into an hour. I'm worried that I am still being too analytical and too obsessed with my problems. I have joined a dating website again and am hoping it will go well.
Hi all! It's been a month since my last post but it feels like longer!
Things took a major nose dive at work a few weeks ago when someone wound me up to the point I totally exploded and nearly caused a fight in front of the entire department. Gradually things were resolved and now the atmosphere at work is very good. I'm doing well there and am pretty much contented now. Work is no longer a problem.
The dating site has been very interesting, I've already been in two short-lived relationships with unsuitable people.
At the moment I am having a blip. The anxiety is generally on the retreat and many of my problems are now either resolved or being dealt with, but I find that blips now involve feeling low or distressed rather than being outright anxious. I don't seem to need as much support these days but I still need the Samaritans and Anxiety UK when I'm having a blip. Blips are such hateful things.
My counsellor told me she is certain I do not have depression as I am able to lead a normal life. She says it's still just anxiety. Whatever it is, I am afraid of it, which is why it has such power over me. When I feel a "normal" bout of anxiety, I can crush it pretty quickly, but when my mood is low I can feel quite rough.
I have been using inositol for the last 3 weeks and have definitely found it helpful during times of stress or agitation.
I could make a massive post going through all my experiences but no-one would read it, so if anyone does give this post a read please let me know what you think!
www.nothingworks.weebly.com (http://www.nothingworks.weebly.com) I think you would benefit greatly from reading Chris,s experience .Sometimes its good to look at things in a different light .Obviously what you have been doing and how you are approaching things , doesnt seem to be helping you anymore .Hope it helps you on your journey of recovery .Sue
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.