View Full Version : Relapse after trying to wean off beta blockers
Skin'eadWesty
25-01-11, 00:26
I attended a CBT introduction a few weeks back. The woman was really helpful talking through my issues, but she said i should try and wean off me beta blockers to make better use of the therapy.
I went a matter of hours off them, trying not to think about it, then I had a really bad attack, as bad as the ones I called an ambulance for at the very start of my panics. It's knocked my confidence and positive thinking about recovery big time. My heart must have been going triple speed, scared the hell out of me. And now i keep getting flutters and what feels like muscle spasms in me chest. Just as I thought I'd reached the peak and was turning for recovery :(
Anyone else get these spasm feelings?
Cannot say I have but being told to 'wean yourself off' of something is different to going cold turkey.
If you are feeling like you can't cope without beta blockers it is best you take them, and discuss the issues of coming off them with your doctor. Also; as far as I know beta blockers are not mind altering and, as such, you should never really have been advised to come off them to focus on your therapy. Therapy is something to be used as well as medication. They are not mutually exclusive, nor does one usually negatively effect the other unless you're out of your head on sedatives!
My advice would be to take a beta blocker, visit your doctor to discuss the symptoms after coming off them, and tell your therapist how you felt after stopping taking them also.
Ultimately, you should try (probably with distinct futility at this point) not to panic. Cutting down/cutting off medication is always difficult, but the withdrawals fade in time. But if you ever feel like you cannot cope, make sure you speak to your doctor. Therapy is great, but your body responds different to your mind to different things and, both need to be in sync for either treatment to really work.
I agree in that it is never a good idea to come off medication, regardless of the medication, from one moment to the next. Cold turkey is never a good idea, but to come off gradually provokes much less of a reaction and has a much greater chance to succeed.
As for the "relapse", I think that is to be expected. No matter what you do, it is highly unrealistic to believe it is possible to switch a lever, and hey presto, one's emotional state goes from severe panic attacks to virtually nothing. It's not going to happen.
The trick is to learn to actively deal with the anxiety. And this can only be done step by step and over the course of time. The physical reaction might be extremely unpleasant, granted, but if you are a reasonably healthy person and have been checked out medically to corroborate this, it's not very likely to actually harm you. The drama and high emergency is predominantly in your head, and this is called a 'cognitive distortion'.
As for the medication, you can't stay on it for the rest of your life, and there comes a time when it will be a good idea to wean yourself off. What with the CBT in the background and the support you are getting, why not use the opportunity and try to come off it now?
And again, don't allow the physical sensations to bully you into submission. They are extremely unpleasant, yes, but the more you avoid them and run away from them, the more your brain will store these experiences as a 'real' source of danger, which has the effect of multiplying the anxiety and keep it potentially ruling your life for years, if not decades.
Avoidance and anxiety are very closely linked, and the more avoidance there is, the more anxiety there will be in its wake. But the choice is, of course, yours: You can shirk and run and avoid, or you can "feel the fear and do it anyway".
All the best. :)
olderfella
25-01-11, 18:28
why cant anyone stay on medication for the rest of their life?,i will more than likely be on bb,s for the rest or my life as its part of my high blood pressure treatment,why do people make such statements?My advice is stay on it as long as it works for you:)
"why cant anyone stay on medication for the rest of their life?" >olderfella
Because it doesn't cure you?
Because it has all kinds of side-effects?
Because it has all kinds of negative physiological effects (a lot of which haven't even been researched properly, which means this is potentially a Pandora's box with some nasty surprises!) when taken long term?
Because it doesn't empower anybody to actually deal with their problems, but just has a tendency to gloss over the symptoms?
Because it doesn't address any root causes?
Because it causes dependency - if not physically, then at least psychologically?
I'm sorry, olderfella, but I can't help finding statements like yours above abjectly irresponsible! :lac:
olderfella
25-01-11, 19:07
Fact medication can stop peoples panic,fact people can stay on medication long as their doctor deems necessary.Fact medication in a lot of cases enables people to get on with their lives panic free. Fact telling people they cant stay on medication could cause them to panic at the thought of having their medication stopped that is irresponsible, as stated so many times on this forum one cure does not suit all and my advice remains if your meds were prescribed by your doctor and they stop your symptoms and youre a much happier person for taking them stay with it:)
"Fact telling people they cant stay on medication could cause them to panic at the thought of having their medication stopped that is irresponsible">olderfella
I have never told anybody they can't stay on their medication, as I have neither the power, nor the will to do so. Everybody, including myself, is only responsible for themselves.
I've merely pointed out that medication is not a long term solution on the basis of the points I've made above. And I'm sure there are others who would happily expand on my list.
Oh, and one other thing: Personal responsibility doesn't mean handing it over at the door of one's GP's surgery.
I have never told anybody they can't stay on their medication
What about when you said:
As for the medication, you can't stay on it for the rest of your life,
Totally agree with you Olderfella. And once again Euro, there are plenty of medications for all types of conditions that don't cure - they treat. Doesn't mean a person should stop taking them.
"As for the medication, you can't stay on it for the rest of your life," >European
I am standing by this statement. I think no doctor worth their salt would tell a patient to put themselves on medication for the rest of their lives. It wouldn't be part of their Hippocratic Oath, and a doctor who did this would probably be struck off soon on the basis of grave negligence.
Isn't it funny that we have a condition here that has avoidance very much at its heart - and yet all some of you people have to say is: Avoid!
Logically, this makes as much sense as telling an Alcoholic to drink or a heroin addict to shoot up.... It's just absurd!
I am standing by this statement. I think no doctor worth their salt would tell a patient to put themselves on medication for the rest of their lives. It wouldn't be part of their Hippocratic Oath, and a doctor who did this would probably be struck off soon on the basis of grave negligence.
That makes no sense form start to finish. 1) A doctor 'telling a patient to put THEMSELF on medication? Surely it's the doc who does that? And 2) Docs put people on meds for the rest of their lives all the time.
Isn't it funny that we have a condition here that has avoidance very much at its heart - and yet all some of you people have to say is: Avoid!
Logically, this makes as much sense as telling an Alcoholic to drink or a heroin addict to shoot up.... It's just absurd!
You really do posters on here such a vast disservice. Most people are aware of the dangers of avoidance and rarely is anybody advised to avoid anything. As for the second bit? Well, you're jut getting ridiculous now IMO.
"Docs put people on meds for the rest of their lives all the time." >JaneC
For all kinds of chronic and terminal diseases, such as diabetes, cancer and HIV, yes. But it would be a massive exaggeration to claim that anxiety and panic disorder are on the same level, and I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of health professionals would tell you otherwise.
Only because our condition feels dramatic (and I know it does, or rather: did, at least in my case: It was terrifying!) doesn't, however, mean that the drama is real. It's a cognitive distortion, that's all. And I'd rather suffer from anxiety than cancer, thanks very much!
i think i may be able to shed some light on this
if you do CBT the purpose is to feel the panic and beta blockers stop that - what this person should have said is try and reduce them slowly although not addictive stopping them suddenly cause the reaction you had which in turn effects your confidence
hope this helps
i am a CBT therapist and i would never say that to anyone
sam x
"As for the medication, you can't stay on it for the rest of your life," >European
I am standing by this statement. I think no doctor worth their salt would tell a patient to put themselves on medication for the rest of their lives. It wouldn't be part of their Hippocratic Oath, and a doctor who did this would probably be struck off soon on the basis of grave negligence.
Isn't it funny that we have a condition here that has avoidance very much at its heart - and yet all some of you people have to say is: Avoid!
Logically, this makes as much sense as telling an Alcoholic to drink or a heroin addict to shoot up.... It's just absurd!
You must be a Scientologist Euro.
I think you confuse "the rest of your life" with long-term. There is a difference. People stay on meds for as long as it's helping them. We've said it's not a cure. We've said people need to look at root-causes and see meds as a means to an end - not the end.
What does "doctors worth their salt" mean in your opinion? Doctors that don't prescribe ANY meds and refer their patients to CBT? If this is the case then VERY few doctors are "worth their salt".
You seem to be repeating the same things over and over again.
"You must be a Scientologist Euro." >Melancholia77
No, I'm not. And I find this presumption rather arbitrary and offensive to be honest!
"We've said people need to look at root-causes and see meds as a means to an end - not the end.">Melancholia77
You know as well as I do that in the real world 'a means to an end' quickly becomes 'the end' in this context.
I have a good friend who came down with panic attacks at the age of 17 - he is 55 now and has been on medication of some sort all through those decades. He hasn't got a job, only manages to feed himself or go somewhere when his partner does the shopping and drives him, and the side-effects have made him a considerably bigger mess than he used to be before taking any medication at 17.
In all likelihood, he will be on medication for the rest of his life, as it has completely disabled him to deal with his life. And the irony of it all is, that he is the one suffering the most, going up and down in waves, sometimes being almost suicidal at the dissatisfaction and complete failure that he regards as his life. Can this abjectly miserable state of being really be called a solution?
And yes, my friend might be an extreme, but to my surprise and horror I've met quite a few people like this throughout my own odyssey in terms of finding some way to deal with my anxiety and panic - there are much more cases like this (and some worse, when it comes to a proper benzodiazepine (diazepam, valium, etc) addiction!) out there than anyone here would think.
This is not a mere trifle, but it can affect people and everybody around them in a very destructive way! And yes, I stand by what I said: Advocating this and playing down the potential effects is irresponsible!
European,
I like the fact that your incredibly lengthy diatribe to justify your quite blinkered opinions seems to blame your friends condition on medication?
If his condition is that extreme, as you seem to describe I get the distinct feeling he would be just the same (if not possibly worse) without his medication than he is with it.
Either way that is one story in a long history of anxiety sufferers who through medication, therapies (both usual and alternative), lifestyle changes, hell even blind luck have managed to overcome their condition and not be dependent on medication all their life.
"If his condition is that extreme, as you seem to describe I get the distinct feeling he would be just the same (if not possibly worse) without his medication than he is with it.">mercer
And what makes you come to this conclusion (or "distinct feeling"), exactly?
Wouldn't it at least require to know the person in question, and his circumstances, ever so slightly in order to come up with a judgement like this?
I think you've just done precisely what you accused me of: Come up with a "blinkered opinion".
I must admit that I can see both sides of this.
I can entirely relate to the initial post about coming off Beta blockers. I stopped taking them about a year ago for some months, but found that all sorts of wierd anxiety related symptoms started rearing their ugly heads, so I took my doctors advice and started taking them again, albeit at the lower end of the recommended dose. I generally feel much more comfortable taking them, and my Doctors view is if they appear to suit me, not to worry about taking them. However, I don't like taking any medicine if it can be avioded, and this is something I will be discussing with the Doctor in March.
However, I find European's blanket statement that you shouldn't take a medicine long term a bit alarmist, and opinionated. Would you tell someone suffering from Asthma not to take an inhaler for the rest of their life? no, you would recommend them to use it when needed, but not to use it unnecessarily.
I recently went a day without taking a beta-blocker, and had one of the worst multiple-palpitations I have experienced! Maybe some people are just prone to excessive adreniline production, which causes the palps, and need some chemical assistance to redress the balance?
I have a good friend who came down with panic attacks at the age of 17 - he is 55 now and has been on medication of some sort all through those decades. He hasn't got a job, only manages to feed himself or go somewhere when his partner does the shopping and drives him, and the side-effects have made him a considerably bigger mess than he used to be before taking any medication at 17.
In all likelihood, he will be on medication for the rest of his life, as it has completely disabled him to deal with his life. And the irony of it all is, that he is the one suffering the most, going up and down in waves, sometimes being almost suicidal at the dissatisfaction and complete failure that he regards as his life. Can this abjectly miserable state of being really be called a solution?
And yes, my friend might be an extreme, but to my surprise and horror I've met quite a few people like this throughout my own odyssey in terms of finding some way to deal with my anxiety and panic - there are much more cases like this (and some worse, when it comes to a proper benzodiazepine (diazepam, valium, etc) addiction!) out there than anyone here would think.
He may be alive today because of his medication. Have you given this a thought? Or you saying that death is better than this "abjectly miserable state of being"?
I'm afraid your attempts at emotional blackmail and sob stories don't wash. Go and help him to see the benefits of CBT instead of venting your anger here.
"He may be alive today because of his medication. Have you given this a thought? Or you saying that death is better than this "abjectly miserable state of being"?" >Melancholia77
I think you're being a tad over-dramatic here, and I have a hunch my friend would probably agree with this. I think he started off with a problem but got more and more lost. And I have no doubt that the medication played its part in this.
"Would you tell someone suffering from Asthma not to take an inhaler for the rest of their life?" >Meltdown
Of course I wouldn't. But then an Asthma sufferer could die from an asthma attack - whereas an anxiety sufferer couldn't die from an anxiety attack. There is a difference!
It's important to note that everyones road to recovery/making life better will be vastly different. Sone will get their without medication at all whilst others will need medication of some sort at some length of time to help them through. Others may need medication all their life. Anxiety and panic is not a one size fits all disorder. There are different elements at play like GAD, OCD and depression can also come into play.
With panic attacks and phobias I think tackling it head on is key, exposure therapy is essential. But also some people might need the help of medication, everyone circumstances/causes of anxiety can be vastly different.
With euro's mate who knows if he hadn't taken medication where he would be? None of us. We can speculate but ultimately he could be better, worse or the same. He is just one case of many on medication. Remember a lot of those for whom medication has worked are likely living their life and not on here reporting it.
As for the original post I think if it's getting too bad, get back on beta blockers for the time being and work slowly at tackling your anxieties in conjunction with coming off the beta blockers at a suitable pace. Ultimately, speak to your GP, your therapist shouldn't really be working on your meds without your doctors input.
European,
No one here is trying to discredit your opinion. We are all entitled to believe what we wish and, indeed your stoic belief that something that is all in the mind can be dealt with by the mind (and without medication) leads you to often give incredibly good, and positive advice.
But you also have to accept that medication is, to most people, the quickest and most easily available option to at least begin the process of dealing with their anxiety. While some people can abuse this, i.e. by relying solely upon medication instead of focusing on the root causes of their condition, most people merely utilise medication on a short term basis.
Indeed, before I was even fully better from the worst of my anxiety troubles over the past year, my GP and therapists were in communication discussing getting me off of medication!
While your experiences may be different, and lead you to believe otherwise, medication can work on the extreme physical symptoms and provide the objectivity and focus an individual needs to assess how they can get over their condition at times when everything seems hopeless.
I respect your opinion; I really do, and as I said, it allows you to give people some exceptionally positive advice at times. But often, when it comes to people having anxieties about their medications, it could make the situation worse.
Skin'eadWesty
06-03-11, 21:58
Thanks for all the advice, thanks not so much for the arguments!
I must agree with european in that I cant be on them for the rest of my life. Not because of a demand, or because I believe its 'not allowed' but because I dont want to be on them, it knocks my pride and confidence knowing I have to be on something to cope with daily life. And frankly to get off of them completely would be a huge step for me. People are welcome to stay on them for the rest of their lives, but I really dont think that achieves any kind of balance. My therapy stands to help me recover, my beta blockers stand to dampen my symptoms and not to achieve any long term gain. So surely the therapy without the meds is a more lasting and confidence boosting option, even if it is a hundred times more difficult.
As for people on them for heart problems and high blood pressure, it is reasonable to say people may not neccesarily get off them, but I'd say thats a different story, when they do wonders to keep people alive, then fair enough, but my issue is largely mental and It doesnt help the mental side by taking a little orange pill that 'stops me panicking', all that does it makes me feel dependant, thats my own opinion
Erm, if I can just add a bit to this from the point of view of how the medication works.
Just as a comment, I take beta-blockers myself, to help prevent migraine attacks (as that's another established use for them). I've taken them for about 12 years now, and I'll probably be on them for the rest of my life - which is infinitely preferable to having a migraine with aura every 3 or 4 days.
I worked in a hospital pharmacy for many years, and as a result of that was always able to find out how drugs worked from the pharmacists, which was very useful. So:
* beta blockers work by blocking the release of noradrenaline, which is one of the stress hormones - therefore this slows down the heart, lowers blood pressure, and for anxious people, it helps stop the tremors and shaky feeling. They don't make us impervious to stress though.
* often when you're prescribed beta blockers, there will be a warning on the pack which says "do not stop taking this medication suddenly - you can get rebound reactions which will mean that your heart rate will increase a lot and your blood pressure will go up. Obviously, for a patient with very high blood pressure, this can be dangerous. The increase in heart rate can also be pretty unpleasant - I've experienced this a few times myself
* if you've been on them for a while, it's a good idea to come off them gradually by reducing the dose, as it can help stop rebound effects
*
Yorkmackem
16-03-11, 16:54
I can personally vouch for the effectiveness of Beta Blockers (Propranolol in my case) - have recently started on Valproic Acid (Depakote) as a mood stabiliser and the side effects in terms of panic / anxiety have been horrendous. So much so that I've re-discovered and re-registered with this site after an absence of at least 5 years !
An increased dosage of Propranolol (which I was also taking anyway) has been really good in calming me down through the anxiety - in respect of use over the longer term though, I worry that the body builds up a gradual "resistance" to it and becomes less effective with time. So hopefully I can vary the dosage as and when necessary.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.