Self medicating / buying online

[justinb74]

I just spent nearly half an hour trying to reply to everyone and it didn't post. Any legal aspects please listen to, MyNameIsTerry as he is far, far more aware of the law than myself, and sounds like someone who knows what he's talking about. I will post a more detailed reply to try and cover all questions later.

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:27 ----------

I would just like to add that I do not wish to encourage others or condone the route I have taken. I feel it works for me, but would definitely advice trying every other option first.

---------- Post added at 16:44 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

This is a question for MyNameIsTerry. I once ordered from a site within the EU that give you a telephone consultation with an EU doctor, then they write you a prescription and send you them. it's my understanding that this is legal, am I completely wrong?

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

Answer to MyNameIsTerry. I really don't know, of the three I use one will only take Euros. They are all very reliable, but one in particular will deliver them to you within 2-3 days max in my experiance. I obviously don't have the ability to test exactly what I'm getting but after 18 years I have a fairly good idea.

[mikewales]

There is no way to legally get prescription drugs in the UK other than from a pharmacy with a proper prescription from a UK GP. All the companies that sell from abroad know it is illegal, and having a UK distribution centre doesn't make it any more legal. Even if you personally went overseas, got a local prescription and bought them, they would be confiscated when you came back in to the UK.

The overseas websites all have in their small print that shipments can get seized, which if it was legal wouldn't happen !

As others have mentioned, the main danger is that you don't know what is in the tablets you are taking. Also, most of the prescription drug trade is run by organised criminals, so you are funding them by buying from them.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Even if you personally went overseas, got a local prescription and bought them, they would be confiscated when you came back in to the UK.

Do you mean in the case of something on the MDA list Mike? If not, then this would be the case for legitimately prescribed medications eg if you lost your medication and were issued a temporary one until you returned to the UK or pain medication prescribed due to accidents abroad.

Justin has asked if it is legal for a doctor in a foreign country can prescribe to allow medication to be sent. Unless this is covered in legislation, then it would be legal so can you explain your information source please? There is a section in The Medicines Act which allows a doctor or dentist to import for their patients but I'm unclear as to whether this allows for foreign doctors to export it, thus it becoming an import to their patient. There is a subsection that covers seizure of goods by customs under their seperate Act but it relies on them being a class specified under The Medicines Act. So, whilst I can see Diazapam being within that seizure class already, it doesn't actually state anything further than the ability of Ministers to seize it and this would cause all imports of Diazepam to be siezed whether licenced or not, hence it can't be relevant in this case.

[mikewales]

If it were legal for people to personally import Diazepam, then it wouldn't get seized. Obviously large scale importation by registered suppliers is perfectly legal ( as with alcohol, cigarettes etc.. ).

If you were given something abroad that is a controlled drug in the UK, when you bought it into the country you would need to prove that you already had a prescription for it in the UK, and it was an emergency supply, or it will be treated as importing a controlled drug. Speed tablets could be legally bought in various European places for years, but you couldn't bring them into the UK, likewise Valium can be bought over the counter in some countries.

In the same way if it were prescribed overseas and posted here. It is not legal to import any controlled drugs into the UK, whatever loopholes you try and use. If you are in doubt, ask any customs people, and ask them why they are seized when found.

[SarahH]

Wracking my brains about my police training (retired 4 years). The Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 states that prescription drugs are a Class C drug and can only be prescribed in this country by a licenced medical practitioner. If that drug is sold or GIVEN outside this remit it becomes a Class A drug and the offence is "supply" not "possession" . For instance if I give one of my sleeping tablets to a friend I am committing the offence of "supplying" a controlled substance and my friend commits the offence of "possession".
Now I accept that the law may have changed since then, however if it is imported without a licence (to import) then it is a pretty serious offence.

Be Careful

Sarah

[mikewales]

Quite apart from that Sarah, Diazepam is a horrible drug to get off, and that is why doctors don't like to prescribe long term anymore.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Wracking my brains about my police training (retired 4 years). The Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 states that prescription drugs are a Class C drug and can only be prescribed in this country by a licenced medical practitioner. If that drug is sold or GIVEN outside this remit it becomes a Class A drug and the offence is "supply" not "possession" . For instance if I give one of my sleeping tablets to a friend I am committing the offence of "supplying" a controlled substance and my friend commits the offence of "possession".
Now I accept that the law may have changed since then, however if it is imported without a licence (to import) then it is a pretty serious offence.

Be Careful

Sarah

Hi Sarah,

There are provisions in the MDA for specific groups. For instance, Diazapam is in the tranquiliser group and only 2 of those, not Diazepam, are chargeable with possession. So, its a confiscation only thing with the rest.

Importation is a trafficking offence and its classed the same as supply or manufacture.

As far as I know, supply is split between the 3 categories because Class A has a maximum of life + fine whereas Class B & C has 12 years + fine and the MDA clearly represents them seperately in their classes even when the same clause is to be applied. I couldn't see anything about everything becoming Class A so perhaps thats been amended?

Its all far from easy to understand thesedays. Look at anabolic steroids. These are a Class C but its a waivable offence as possession although there have been some successful prosecutions where the steroid is not in the form of a medicinal product (whatever that means?!).

There are other drug laws as well such as The Misuse of Drugs Regulation 2001 which are an add on of sorts to the MDA. This Act also provides schedules which show what is currently classed as a drug, although its not a complete list I think, its just what is known so could change. I suspect it likely will due to the legal highs issue raising its head again.

The thing is, not everything on these lists has been proved to be a drug or bad for health anyway. Can you remember the doping scandals in the athletics community? They caused certain sports supplements to be reclassified as Class C despite having nothing to back it up. There was also the date rape issue that emerged from things like GHB which was added to the list but it took GABA with it, which was a sports supplement and didn't have the same effects, because it had a similiar method of action. You can happily buy these supplements in places like the US and supplements companies were trying to change the status at some point but I don't know whats going on now, but then again new supplements may have overtaken them anyway nowadays.

So, its a very complicated affair. I remember buying DHEA from the US because I was due a new order and couldn't find it on my UK sellers website. It came through fine. I asked my seller why he had stopped selling it and he advised it had been made a Class C! So, I had imported it illegally, but how was I to know? I know that the law doesn't care much for the excuse of ignorance but unless someone publishes this stuff, how can anyone know without reading through the governments legislation website? I know a member on here has done this more recently and I've mentioned this so she knows not to order it again, without understanding the risks.

I'm thinking in the OP's case, customs opened it for whatever reason (my DHEA would have been marked 'health supplement' for instance, and its not illegal to import other health supplements not classed as banned) and decided it was a personal use issue, hence not caring much as they haven't got the resources to chase something so minor.

---------- Post added at 06:33 ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 ----------

If it were legal for people to personally import Diazepam, then it wouldn't get seized. Obviously large scale importation by registered suppliers is perfectly legal ( as with alcohol, cigarettes etc.. ).

It may have depended on how the label was marked. If it had been 'health supplement', maybe it would get through? Other Class C's do get through such as DHEA. DHEA is still illegal but the question is always going to be how do they know? They probably have issues overthings marked 'health supplement' from certain countries that legally sell Diazepam as you said hence stopping more of them but if they did this for the US, they could be stopping legitimate sports supplements too in order to check but this would at least pick up the DHEA issue.

Also, it is perfectly legal for the prescriber to obtain the drug for their patient. On that basis, there is always the opportunity for importation. Customs may stop it, but they would just make enquiries as they have done with the OP by asking them to claim the package with proof as to why they can have it. I expect they check the postage names for any drug companies and licenced pharmacies and not seize those though.

If you were given something abroad that is a controlled drug in the UK, when you bought it into the country you would need to prove that you already had a prescription for it in the UK, and it was an emergency supply, or it will be treated as importing a controlled drug. Speed tablets could be legally bought in various European places for years, but you couldn't bring them into the UK, likewise Valium can be bought over the counter in some countries.

I agree, and I expect customs would contact your doctor if you gave them the details when intercepted, as with the police I would imagine, although it might be less of a concern if travelling between England & Wales to NE or Scotland to NE and vice versa given The Medicines Act covers all 3 as the same regulation is in place to prevent illegal supply. However, I would hope they would have a policy for regular or emergency medication as I can't see how they could confiscate it and send you home without it so they may use a doctor onsite to check usage in medication that is not likely to be abusable e.g. an asthma inhaler.

In the same way if it were prescribed overseas and posted here. It is not legal to import any controlled drugs into the UK, whatever loopholes you try and use. If you are in doubt, ask any customs people, and ask them why they are seized when found.

The Medicines Act is quite specific in that it states licence must be granted under the Act by the Secretary of State. So, I would expect any licenced practitioner who conforms to the 5 classes allowed to prescibe as being subject to this Act. However, is there a wider issue with EU legislation allowing for this which overrides this section of the Act allowing for a foreign doctor within the EU to prescribe abroad? And does any such EU legislation make any reference to waiving importation under The Medicines Act? Aren't there things like this when it comes to legal highs which has recently been discussed as a problem between the EU and our laws?

If there is no EU legislation to do this, then its possibly not illegal for a foreign doctor to prescribe abroad and for him/her to send medication or request a pharmacy to send medication, unless they have a comparitive law to ours. If they don't, obviously the patient accepts the risk and becomes the importer regardless but its strange that we have licenced doctors doing this when surely their medical licence doesn't allow them to prescibe to patients abroad?

It just makes me wonder why the issue even exists unless there is a loop hole somewhere allowing them to do it and then meaning customs have to intercept them all, which they probably won't do.

I don't condone any of this Mike. I don't go near Diazepam other than using it to reduce side effects of new medication, and only them when it becomes unbearable, but I'm concerned when I hear this and how easy it all is and why it seems it is being allowed when these countries are part of the EU.

As an example, I could show you a large natural health company that has been trading for a lot of years and they openly sell DHEA in £'s on their website with a UK address. From what I recall, they post it from the US thus making it the importers fault...which is very unfair given they are conducting the sale in the UK. This isn't a small dodgy seller, this is a large one thats been around a long time.

So, when you see things like this, its hardly likely that people are being mislead into breaking the law, as already shown on another thread on here.

[mikewales]

All of these websites ( as with the ones who sell cheap cigarettes etc... ) put the onus on the buyer. They mention things may get seized, and it will be up to the buyer to prove they are allowed them, or pay any duty owing.

They all know what they are doing is illegal, but rely on customs only catching a small percentage of the parcels sent through ( as do the buyers ). Obviously they won't mark the parcel with what is actually in it, and given the millions of parcels that come through every day, customs will only every find a small percentage just by luck.

Also, most of the websites are actually in countries that have very lax or non existant drug laws for medication ( normally not the USA or EU as they may claim ), so they are unlikely to get shut down by the local authorities. Certainly any that was actually based in the UK, and held stocks here would be investigated pretty quickly ! ( a bit like a heroin dealer having an online ordering service )

I can't imagine any legitimate GP giving out consultations over the phone to prescribe controlled drugs either !

[MyNameIsTerry]

All of these websites ( as with the ones who sell cheap cigarettes etc... ) put the onus on the buyer. They mention things may get seized, and it will be up to the buyer to prove they are allowed them, or pay any duty owing.

They all know what they are doing is illegal, but rely on customs only catching a small percentage of the parcels sent through ( as do the buyers ). Obviously they won't mark the parcel with what is actually in it, and given the millions of parcels that come through every day, customs will only every find a small percentage just by luck.

Also, most of the websites are actually in countries that have very lax or non existant drug laws for medication ( normally not the USA or EU as they may claim ), so they are unlikely to get shut down by the local authorities. Certainly any that was actually based in the UK, and held stocks here would be investigated pretty quickly ! ( a bit like a heroin dealer having an online ordering service )

I can't imagine any legitimate GP giving out consultations over the phone to prescribe controlled drugs either !

The government are moving towards remote consultations so we will be able to with our doctors but it seems very dodgy for a doctor elsewhere to be doing it. So, I suspect this covers things at their end and they have no rule about their doctors prescribing outside of their own country, hence they are doing nothing wrong...if thats the case. Thats an issue for our government to sort out inside the EU which is quite easily done given the EU has lists for controlled substances that govern ours...or so a recent article I read seemed to be saying but I may have this wrong.

I know which websites you mean and I agree mostly (you even get them on places like Amazon from time to time!) but its ones like this that seem to be the exception:

http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthr...highlight=dhea

This company in London http://biovea.net/uk/product_detail....mg-300-Tablets is quite clearly marketing DHEA (prasterone) to the UK, they don't have the usual disclaimers and it clear that in Tish's case (who quite harmlessly purchased it after getting the run around by her GP who couldn't be bothered to check what it was and may have indicated she get it from a pharmacy which could suggest without a prescription, which the pharmacist refused, hence could make someone think they could purchase it and it was recommended by an NHS gyno already taking it!) that it was purchased through this website with a US domain but prices reflecting £'s thus putting it in the realms of the Advertsing Standards Authority (ASA) domain for complaints. These guys have over 5k Trustpilot reviews and have been around since 2001.

I can't find them on Companies House so I suspect they are US based but the ASA have successfully ruled against them in the past and they are a powerless self regulation body. Biovea cooperated withe ASA as they are not listed as a non compliant online advertiser. I can find a document that states Biovea has a post office box in the UK where mail is forwarded to an addressee in California and there were questions raised over Biovea's legal business entitiy status in the US but the president of Biovea did admit responsibility to them.

DHEA is nothing like Diazepam, it probably shouldn't even be on the controlled list really as it went there for political reasons and there are studies to show it can be useful, its just not been challenged yet.

Melatonin is also a POM and I've seen threads on the Natural Remedies board about using that since I joined. You can buy that too from Biovea. Here is one off another forum where a GP has instructed them to purchase it http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/in...urchase-in-uk/

It looks like a shady company to me after checking against their address but they have a skip website clearly pulling in loads of sales from all sorts of legal products as well.

But when you see something like this, its no wonder people are making mistakes that could get them in serious trouble. The law has a habit of not accepting ignorance of an act as a defence but this is a very complicated and largely obscured issue that it hard for people not to fall into traps like this.

The OP mentioned paying in Euros, so I'm guessing the continent, but that could also be ROI. Getting it here in 2-3 days is also a concern and it makes me wonder whether that is actually coming from outside the UK...if it is, I need that postman!

[mikewales]

Biovea could be based anywhere, the London address is just a 'virtual office' for mail forwarding. The fact they don't have a legitimate UK base, shop etc... should ring alarm bells anyway. If you look at their main page, you can pick from loads of countries they are apparently based in, and all seem to have a local office !