SAMe for depression

[MyNameIsTerry]

I've seen ratios for 3-6 but I thought it was 1:1 or 1:2? I've seen one 1:3. Have I got those the wrong way around? I likely get a fair bit of 6 and this concerns me as well for my asthma with that being an inflammatory condition but there are safe limits on 3's as well so I'll have to see if I can go up to that. I also need to read the article I posted in Oosh's thread again to check on the DHA & GLA impacts.

I didn't know that about Chia, I thought it was the other way around. Flax are cheaper aren't they? Chia seemed to be the new in thing. Pricey though. You can get flaxseed oil as well, can't you?

Have you looked at hemp? Usually it's seeds but you can get (or make your own) hemp oil. In my local supermarket they have Hemp milk and there won't be any EPA/DHA in that but I know it's got a low SDA value so I suspect the rest if the dose is ALA. It's reasonably priced like but milk so maybe an alternative?

Glutamine is one I'm unsure about. I know it can be used to create glutamate and too much of this will be a bad thing, especially for anxiety, but maybe it would be useful in depression? I know they are working on meds that hit that neurotransmitter so maybe there is some research out there for them that offers some hints? NoPoet has a new meds thread where several are mentioned and I think they were in the vein of SNRI's in that it would be perhaps HRI or HSNRI, HDSNR, etc? With OCD this is tricky for me as some supplements that are emerging to help with OCD (some have shown 40% effectiveness for related spectrum disorders) that work on reducing certain glutamate rich areas. But glutamine is used for muscle energy (hence thinking about depression & brain energy) in great quantities so in any protein powder or weight gainer. I guess it's going to be another one of those you try and then hit a ceiling with where it becomes too stimulating.

On the subject of brain energy, L-Carnitine is one I've seen mentioned. That works all over as well though so perhaps the same issue unless you load it with a carrier?

I've not looked at Glycine much myself. It's another major one in protein powders so it will be used throughout the body and I seem to recall it has competition with some other neurotransmitters. It does seem to be a popular chelate with magnesium...and it's cheap!

Transdermal magnesium won't go anywhere near your digestive system, it's purely absorbed through the skin which is much better anyway. I'm not sure on the fat, so one for a Google I think. It may be the type of fat as well as they all have their different impacts on other substances and some are carriers.

How much D3 do you take? I know this one will be very important to you and I expect you have researched it a lot. I was looking at my cod liver oil and it only has 400UI which I believe is really low. Part of my problem is lack of sunshine with my sleep issues and I noticed I felt more tired when I started seeing the sleep schedule slip. Part of this may be an effect by my meds as well but it won't be helping. I'm thinking of getting some of these to help me with this issue as I have fatigue a lot but I was reading about it and how the RDA's are considered too low. The upper limit seemed to be where the supplements end (10,000UI?) but I saw someone talking about how once you hit 10,000UI you needs to add in K2 or you are making things worse as it can cause calcium to leech from your bones. I've also read that it's more around the 8,000UI level you need to even increase your blood plasma levels to make a positive shift if you are low. (I was a bit shocked to read that doctor's use D2 in their prescriptions which is a far inferior version!)

Interesting one for you on antioxidants here:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...pplements.aspx

That ties in with your ALA. It looks like supplementation isn't easy with this but it's more about precursor material, synthesis supplements and inhibitory supplements. It's interesting. I only came across that because I was looking at NAC, which is coming along in med trials for OCD sprectrum disorders. NAC converts to it.

Do you know anything about NAC? It says it's one to be monitored by a doctor on if you have asthma but it's used to treat various lung disorders and there are testimonials by asthma sufferers. This might be a boon to me as my current med feels too activating.

[blue moon]

Hemp milk? I am moving to your place Terry

I make LSA use it in everything,it is nice with yoghurt and salads. Chia,Gobi Berries are on trend and are expensive,I have papita seeds and flax seed on cereal with LSA.
Just thought I would mention that,hope it does not kill the thread.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Whats LSA, Petra?

Yeah, hemp milk in the supermarkets...it's hemp seeds though so not what you will be thinking It's supposed to be good for the Omegas and other things.

[blue moon]

LSA is Linseed,Sunflower and Almonds you put them in a blender.I make it up for my sons and a couple of docs at the hospital...So it is medicinal Hemp?

I am now trying green lipped mussell capsules spose to be better than fish oil and Krill,probably a load of bull but will give them a shot.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Ah, ok.

I had seen a product advertised as the new in thing after krill oil so these lipped mussell capsules must have been that.

You can make hemp milk in a blender from hemp seeds and water. It's only got trace amounts of what you find in cannabis so you wont be getting stoned off it They do have a decent amount of magnesium in them too but the Omega ratio is 3:1 6-3. It won't be medicinal, thats a drug isn't it?

[SADnomore]

Further research is telling me nothing further about magnesium and dietary fat, argh! However, it has revealed that it is apparently best absorbed when taken apart from competing minerals. This would include the mineral-form C fizzy drink I take, soooo I will try taking it later with lunch, and at bedtime still.

Yes, I knew but had not been thinking about the need for K2 as "policeman" to calcium, so that the calcium doesn't deposit in joints and arteries instead. That has lit a fire under me to get back to the health food store and pick some up! Indeed, I have been taking increased doses of vitamin D since spring, when I asked my doc about going with 10,000 units and he said by all means! These past couple of weeks I have increased again to 20,000 units, at my DIL's urging. She lives in a cold climate, too. It has long been known that those of us in northern countries get little vitamin D from the sun, and a study done in Canada discussed how the "quality" of the D we get from the sun, especially in winter, is not adequate either. My doctor has stopped testing his patients for D levels, as he "knows" we are all too low. I will run by him that I am now taking 20,000 units next time I'm in. I just take the liquid drops, in each spoonful of omegas, but some instructions even say they can be licked off the back of a clean hand! Honestly, I just buy whichever drops are on sale, but they're really cheap.

Chia seeds are pretty cool in mixtures, aren't they? I used to add a few big spoonfuls of Greek yogurt, stir, and wait a few minutes while it turned all fluffy, then stir in berries and enjoy, but then the dreaded lactose intolerance reared its ugly head ... Still, it would be lovely in smoothies for thickness, especially if not using bananas. It's possible you are right about the higher omegas? I'm just going by an interactive nutrient profiles online site.

Lol! Now that you mention it, I happen to have a bottle of flaxseed oil in my fridge, purchased just before we went away, so I can use it to make my own salad dressing "to order".

Calcium. I have some lactose-free cheese in the fridge, and am going to get on that. I am trying to get most calcium from my diet, as it really is the best way for it to absorb, they say. But having said that, I am now taking a good cal-mag supplement again, one per day, I think it's only 650 mg calcium, but I have read that we can only absorb 500 mg at one time anyway. Because of my arthritic joints, I am being more cautious about supplementing with calcium, and as I say, if I can ever establish dairy again I will get up to at least the new RDA with that!

*http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...itamin-k2.aspx

Haven't looked into the other things you've mentioned; I was using almond milk in my oats but there are so many additives and I don't have time to make my own, so, will be eating nuts and taking a run at lactose-free milk now.

Lol! Petra, at first I thought the LSA you were referring to was an acronym for a partner with whom you share your breakfast! Pepitas,or pumpkin seeds, are a great source of protein too! I sprinkle them on everything.

I bought a new vegan protein powder made with sacha inchi, a Peruvian seed/nut. Naturally high in protein, and is supposed to have omegas and antioxidants as well. I plan to use this on my "vegan days". Kind of expensive, I wouldn't want to rely on it totally, but it will top up my needs on those days. I bought a book on sprouting lentils and such, and look forward to lots of hot soups and other bean dishes this winter!

Terry, I was looking at SAD lamps and found one for about $85, over 10,000 lux, which is what is recommended. It even has battery backup! Maybe you could save up for one? I will be setting my alarm and getting up to have tea and look at my emails of a morning. My local health food store manager confirms that she will be bringing in a couple of different models this winter. I have looked online, but there are a lot of inferior ones there :P I really hesitate to tinker much more with meds, venlaxafine is stimulating too, another reason I don't want to use any more than I have to. 300 mg kept the depression at bay last February, but I was more propelled around to do what's needed, than self-motivated, lol!

---------- Post added at 17:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

Time to split some of these other great topics off, yes?! Lol!
Petra, are you by chance vegetarian too, or vegan?

[MyNameIsTerry]

I was looking at the lamps last year. The only issue for me right now is the risk of mania and the side effects of this med I'm on as I'm not sure whether I've suffered some slight mania with them.

Lactose issues - may have a solution for you. Ever heard of kefir? It comes as milk kefir and water kefir. It's an old thing, water has been around hundreds of years and the milk one for thousands. It's just fermenting from a starter culture. But the interesting thing is, the probiotic colony eats the lactose so if you leave it long enough, it eats it all. This is the common stage when you transfer the batch to the fridge anyway and start a new one as leaving it longer starts to increase the alcohol content from very low to something that can be beer strength.

When I was researching this to start brewing, I noticed articles where people have stated they are lactose intolerant but have no problems with it. there are even articles about people who drink it before a lactose meal and tolerate it fine which is presumed to be because the probiotics are in the stomach and eat the lactose so it is not digested.

So, perhaps that could be a solution because you could use normal milks so you get the calcium and this would give you a massive probiotic boost too because kefir is far richer than anything you can buy OTC in probiotic supplements. It's very cheap as you buy a starter culture, some brewing jars (which I bet you already have), cheesecloth or towel, elastic band, a sieve and then you just keep buying the milk you need. You will end up with too much culture too so people give it away, sell it, eat it for a massive massive boost or give it their pets. I know water kefir gives about 1-1.5 trillion bacteria (I think some say 5 trillion but I haven't checked that out so unsure whether it's accurate or not but I think it's about quantity when comparing to other probiotics like yogurt) across a number of strains. Milk kefir has a load of strains in it and I think delivers about the same. It only takes a couple of days to brew it in the pantry.

I'm going with water kefir as I lack the fridge space and need to store it in the pantry. The strains differ between the 2 but they contain many more than what you will find in cultured products in supermarkets. There is only 100 trillion healthy bacteria in the human body.

http://www.growyouthful.com/recipes/water-kefir.php
http://www.growyouthful.com/recipes/kefir.php
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...e-on-gaps.aspx
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/wat...bacteria-yeast
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/mil...bacteria-yeast
http://www.orhaolam.com/uploads/KefirInShort.pdf

Milk kefir is also pretty versalite and some people make cheese with it or yogurt. So, how about some probiotic cheese you make from the milk you put through your ferments and then drink a little bit of the kefir brew? (assuming you don't want to drink that much of it?) I wonder if making cheese from it will allow you to prolong the life a bit? People use it like yogurt in receipes too.

You could always culture cerain veggies too like sauerkraut, pickle, etc. (I know you like your veggies) I'm just thinking all this could be a way to work your probiotics in off your link in the original post.

I wonder if this is why I am so fatigued as well and why I have started to have joint problems and this sciatica? I eat probiotic yogurt, probiotic cheese (Quark) and have an actimel drink a day at the moment. Maybe the calcium just isn't getting used due to low vitamin D due to my lack of sunlight?

I was looking at K2 after seeing this and it's not cheap. It's far cheaper to buy it with the D3 included from what I've seen so far. I was going to go for 5000UI so I thought I may try D3 on it's own at first unless there is a good price on a combined product. Just be careful about the MK issue. 4 & 7 are supposed to be the best with 7 seeming the popular one from what I've seen so far.

[SADnomore]

Hmm. I hear you on the mania thing. Except for me, the "high" doesn't include good mood and delusions of grandeur. Just nervous energy :P No, I trust my diagnosis of SAD. ... And, as much as I have read that SSRI drugs can induce mania, these cases are normally those who were bi-polar, diagnosed or no. In my gut I feel that by this point in my life, I would have had the extremes that would qualify me already. But I understand your fear. ...

To me, it seems like all the more reason to try to manage on the lowest dose of med that works. I took another L-tryptophan this morning, empty stomach, an hour after my serrapeptase which was also on an empty stomach and so far so good. Now, the other day, mid-afternoon after taking the L-tryp I became suddenly very drowsy so I figure something (fat maybe?) hadn't quite digested from my lunch yet, and so it converted to melatonin instead of serotonin, lol! I want to get the "stores" up, so will continue with taking it probably every other morning or so until about mid-month. I think I will forego the SAMe after all, as it's main function is to increase serotonin as well, and by mid-October I expect to be doing an increase with the Effexor to 150 mg (and more yoga!)

Thank you so much for all the info on kefir, both milk and the water type that seems like a good fit for most of us. I had read a bit on it a while back, and goat kefir was being touted as the "best", can't remember why. I thought, hmmm, well, if anything is going to put me off it, the goat version will be the one, haha! So I bought a bottle at the health food store, plain, and also with blueberries. The blueberry was quite tasty, and actually the plain was fine too. A bit thick for using on cooked oats, I thought, but palatable which is key! Didn't get to finish them before they went out of date, sadly. More control with the water kind it seems, which is good.

Yes, I have read that also about MK-4 and MK-7. It is of note that MK-7 partially converts to 4, so I don't think it's critical to get an MK-4 exclusive source, but as the 4 is the one that binds most to calcium and ferries it where needed, I would still choose to feature it. I noticed the same as you, the kind with vitamin D is cheaper, oddly enough. But since the whole point is to be sure we are complementing increases of calcium with D and K2, any one with the others, then that may explain it! A good thing.

Not being vegetarian, maybe you could try having some pate, either goose liver or beef, as they are very high sources of K2? Not sure how you feel about those! Eggs contain roughly 50 mg each, and some cheeses such as Brie and edam are considered good choices too.

But, if we are going to be taking as much as say, 20,000 iu of Vitamin D, then a K2 (4) supplement of 5,000 mg does seem a good choice. This I say without knowing exactly what the ratio is of each of D and K2 as they relate to calcium, but wanting to increase the latter along with the D.

Here is one that fits the bill, and should keep us going for 180 days! Pricey to buy but cheap over the long haul!
http://www.amazon.ca/Carlson-Labs-Vi...V2PC6P7YBYFEWY

[SADnomore]

Update. Went to the health food store only to find that the only ones in stock were all made up of mk7! :P Came home and had some cheese and a pickle, lol!

Will try the other health store further out, before week's end.

This supplier ships fast to the UK, same Carlson MK4, bottle of 60, lower price!
http://ca.iherb.com/product-reviews/...ules/6116/?p=8

[MyNameIsTerry]

Some of the MK7's are made from natto to add further confusion. In fact, I was looking at this last night where it said that if you go for MK7 it should always be from natto! So, why not have MK4? What's the difference? I had read that MK7 is better than MK4.

Well, I eat about 100g of Quark on a couple of crackers each day and thats a curd cheese I believe (it's similiar to cottage cheese without lumps though, so like a sour cream cheese) and I've read curd cheese is good for one of the other MK's. I love eggs too and eat those once or twice a week (may have to hard boil a few which I like and you can just down them as a snack easily).

I picked up some cheap D3 5000IU last night off Ebay. The wrong type of label colouring had been used so they were seconds. 354 for £6.99. I also found a MK7 (from natto) product that works out cheaper to buy on it's own along with D3 so this helps me out but it's not 100mcg, it's only 75mcg. I guess I will make a start and maybe add some in here & there but look towards diet where possible.

I saw a guy on one of the Amazon reviews stating above 10,000IU means adding K2 but came across a clinic's site saying from 5000-10,000UI they recommend adding K2 and they were talking about dosing up to 50,000 for their patients as once a week doses to make corrections.

People make kefir with coconut too but the problem is you need a high lactose content or they won't grow or ferment. So, only certain milks can be used. Whilst coconut can be used it will ruin the SCOBY so you need a backup to keep going. Changing the milk can alter the taste I seem to recall. Just be careful you don't add things like honey into the ferment, add it afterwards because it's antimicrobial properties will kill the kefir grains.

Have you read much about the brain-gut connection? There have been some reputable studies of this. There was one in rats/mice where they even severed the connection from the brain to observe that the fight or flight response was invoked by the gut-to-brain pathway. There are certainly some mood studies out there and one of the flora has been shown to impact on serotonin production. This is why I thought kefir would be good for you as it is very high and time tested.

Eggs seem like a double whammy here, K2 plus high in tryptophan (1g in 100g of egg whites). Is it the yolks or whites for the K2?

I've seen that turmeric can help with serotonin too as the curcumin in it crosses the blood-brain barrier and impacts on both serotonin and dopamine. Might be worth a look into that. Turmeric can be useful for inflammation and it's one that can help asthma sufferers so potentially a very useful (and cheap) supplement there.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929771/

Ven gets a mention in there for depression and how curcumin enhanced it.

http://kellybroganmd.com/article/mov...th-depression/

I saw on one website where it said it can be combined with SAMe safely.

I've seen people on here say turmeric helps them, I recall MrAndy mentioning it a few times. I wonder if this is why?

---------- Post added at 08:37 ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 ----------

I think I might give the linseed a go myself. I eat yoghurt daily anyway so it might make a good addition. Never tried it before.

I'll have a lookout for pumpkin seeds too as they seem to be good for tryptophan so would make a good addition to the linseed, maybe?