Vitamin D deficency may be causing your problems

[blue moon]

Plenty of sun and wide open spaces down under,come on down

[sial72]

Hi guys
I have pharma induced polyneuropathy. Since you seem to know a lot about supps... I am on B-vit complex, magnesium, iron, vit D, vit C and Reishi...anything else you would suggest? Also any idea if it is bad to take any of these for long periods of time? Thanks xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hello, all!

I would like to chime in here on the need for vitamin K2. I am finding numerous scientific studies which confirm the roles of K2 in bone health and the prevention of atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries caused by calcium deposits). Still there is no RDA for Vitamin K2, nor routine blood testing. My own doctor dismisses the findings of the Japanese women's study in which bone fractures in osteoporotic women were prevented by K2 in doses of 45 mg per day. I have in past had results for osteopenia in bone scans, yet he refuses to test my levels.

There has never been an issue with harm from overdose with K2 reported, and yet I cannot find a supplement containing any useful amount in Canada. I feel I will be forced to order 5 mg K2 online (made in US) pay the duties, and hope I receive it, since rumour has it that anything over 1.5 mg is not allowed in the country (and I am unable to find even that distributed here, online or otherwise).

My main caution to anyone at present taking higher doses of Vitamin D is to bear in mind that without vitamin K, the calcium it supports may very well end up in our arteries and joints instead of our bones and teeth! This is not conjecture or bad science. It's the truth. Vitamin K2 is what shunts calcium around, it is not self-directed at all.

Consequently, I have once more moderated my daily supplementation of both until I am able to take a decent K2 supplement to go along with them. (Yes, there are food sources, but unless one is eating natto (the fermented soybeans) at least 3 times per week, it simply is not going to be adequate.) I have exhaustively researched food sources, and was shocked to learn that, contrary to popular nutritional citing, vegetable sources once digested are woefully small, even in spinach etc., and cheeses such as Brie and gouda outside of Switzerland are heat-treated (pasteurized) in such a way as to nullify their natural vitamin K.

Also, I had hoped that my omega supplement would contain vitamin A (also plays a role), it doesn't, so I am seeking a good beta carotene supplement for my body to use for this. I dare not take Vitamin A and risk toxicity with it, because ... you guessed it, this is only prevented by an adequate level of Vitamin K!

For the life of me I don't know why the medical establishment is so willfully reluctant to support the roles of these crucial elements and vitamins which we DO NOT get from our diets and northern climes!

Vitamins A, D, C, K, (particularly K2 (K2-MK4 for osteoporosis treatment), magnesium and calcium are all of needs, synergistic, and critical to our physical and mental health. Taking one or two without the others is to put ourselves at risk of harm through imbalance. But good luck finding a doctor who will acknowledge and support this, they really only study pharmaceuticals!

Rant over ...

Marie,

How about the K2 in goat's milk?

Also, K2 is produced in fermentation, I think, so kefir will contain it too.

Just a thought as you could do goat's milk kefir.

Not sure about veggie ferments but it would be worth a look.

[SADnomore]

Blue_Moon! Just post directions and I'll be right over ... as it gets colder here, it's warming up there, right? Perfect, lol!!

Sial72, hiya! It sounds like a great protocol you're on, the only one I can think of that warrants a caution on long-term use may be iron? Only because it can build up and create an excess, but regular blood testing ought to give the heads-up to prevent that. I was vegetarian for a good 8 years before my iron level dropped to where I needed supplementation, and then the minute my bloodwork came back normal, the doc had me stop taking it. ... They say it's quite readily absorbed in our diet, although as I say, I don't eat liver and I limit spinach and the like because of the oxalates (exacerbates pain from arthritis). As with food sources, you will want to take your Vitamin C or eat a good C source at the same time as you take your iron. I am no expert though, so I would do some research on natural treatments for your polyneuropathy, there may be additional supplements recommended?

Terry, that must be what I also read awhile back! THAT's what I have been wracking my brain to remember - goat's milk kefir and why to use it! I mean, I bought and tried some when in BC awhile back, but even then i couldn't think of why I had made a mental note to look for it there. Sure, it's a good source of calcium, but I'll bet it was something to do with goat's milk especially as kefir being a high K2 source that was behind that! Lol, I gotta start writing some of this stuff down ...

---------- Post added at 20:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------

p.s.
Talked to my doctor about a "K test" today, and firstly, he listened to why I wanted it, then he told me I "read, waaay too much!" Lol! However, he agreed to send me for a "clotting factors panel". Says this is what is done: if there are no clotting deficiencies, then there is no Vitamin K deficiency. Says he has never had a healthy patient who had a Vitamin K deficiency. So, I do feel better, but will still take the 1 mg/per 5-10,000 units of D.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Sial72,

Dr Andrew Weil is a longtime naturopathic physician in the US. Here is what he has to say:

"If you have no underlying disease, you can try one or all of the following strategies:

Take one B-100 B-complex vitamin daily. The B vitamins are necessary for normal nerve function, and supplementing is a good preventive measure. Do not take more than 200 mg of B-6, as higher daily doses can actually cause symptoms of neuropathy.
Take 100 mg of alpha-lipoic acid daily. This antioxidant protects microcirculation to the nerves. You can gradually increase the dose to 300 mg twice a day over the next month.
Acupuncture can help relieve the pain of peripheral neuropathy. Additionally, a practitioner of Chinese medicine can provide you with herbs that may speed recovery. You might also try reflexology for neuropathy of the legs, feet and toes. If a toxic exposure is the cause, time is your greatest ally - injured nerves will slowly recover, as long as the exposure has stopped."


Marie

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think it was 100mcg that I read for K2. But I only did a quick search for a decent source after spotting someone on Amazon reviews talking about it. So, I suggest you check that as I started looking for 100mcg tablet forms.

There are online articles about goat's milk if you Google "vitamin K and goats milk" so it must be a natural source itself but if you also Google "vitamin K and kefir" it brings up articles too so I thought it might be a good fit for you. Remember as well that kefir grains eat the lactose so dairy is less of an issue for lactose intolerant people with this type of product and some online discussions are around from people that are trying drinking kefir before a meal to then eat dairy as the kefir prevents digestion by eating the lactose before you digest it. It's interesting stuff and very healthy...and over 2,000 years old.

I think my GP would look at me blankly if I asked him something like you do. he wouldn't know. The thing is though, it's either do your research and try things or go with the meds routes and ride the rollercoaster but even then you are not maximising your gains if your diet is poor. The funny thing is, we have a whole world of nutrionalists telling us to change how we eat and even our governments running awareness campaigns but GP's often have a poor attitude to it unless you have a physical problem that means you have to change your diet!

Lack of vitamin K is something I have heard a few times on the cardiotheracic ward in Holby City. BUT they are talking about dangerous deficiency and even though you may not be dificient, I can can see how a lower reading could be a signal to you because your higher doses of D3 could be causing that and it would make sense to make a small adjustment to counter it.

Great news on the serrapeptase then. I thought I could recall something because I remember arterial plaque being mentioned and a specialist in either Germany or France that actually treats his patients in hospital with it in certain cases.

Sial - magnesium is an essential mineral used on over 300 processes and it's also known as a "calming mineral" as it works on the CNS too. It is very safe. Just a thought though, what type of magnesium are you using? Some are not very well absorbed and whilst they say 400mg, it's only thr "elemental" magnesium that is delivered and the rest is fillers and additional elements to help delivery & absorption. From that, some won't be absorbed anyway so it will be even lower. There are more efficient forms of magnesium and with your condition I'm wondering whether the topical versions would be beneficial i.e. transdermal magnesium. The benefit of this is that it can be applied to areas that are deficient as well as them being absorbed through the skin is is far better than digestion so less if lost. I apply it to areas I'm having trouble with e.g. knees, hips, sciatica and it does show it is helping so perhaps this would help with specific areas where your nerves give you pain?

I don't know anything about your condition and the others vitamins are something Marie knows more about. The best vitamin C you can get is liposomal vitamin C. This is a turbo charged version and gets into the cells. It is a far superior form to the pills we buy. There are some companies making it. You can actually make your own and it's not much work but it's not true liposomal but more an enzyme but it is still superior to the standard vitamin C piils.

Things that work on GABA might be useful e.g. Taurine. That can be calming too and it is used throughout the body so I wonder whether it has any impact on the rest of the CNS? I would have to check up on that. GABA supplements have been shown to cross the blood-brain barrier (BBB) even though it was previously thought they weren't but this was because some studies have shown it where people have health issues so the question is whether they mean the GABA does cross the BBB due to a permeability problem. I'm not sure whether that would help you but GABA was known to also calm the rest of the CNS down and they put that down to how people felt calmer. So, if it doesn't cross the BBB, would calming down the rest of the nervous system help you out? Not sure on that so needs some more looking into.

[SADnomore]

Oh, sorry for misreading: 100 mcg K2, well that should be much easier to find! After speaking with the doctor I am very optimistic that I don't have a Vitamin K issue, will go ahead with the blood test to be sure.

Getting testing from my doc is often tough, he first said "no" but hearing my explanation re: my lack of food sources, my high supplementation of D, he said he "understands how it all works", and proposed the clotting test to rule out deficiency. I was surprised! He is just as likely to scream at me and huff out the door. Yes, really.

When I get the expected good news re: my K, I will go ahead with a bit (just a little!) of the skin source D, and incrementally resume increasing my supplemental D. I would like to commence then with food sources of K (some of which contain calcium too), kefir if I can find it and other fermented foods if only for their awesome digestive help. Then I can make sure of the calcium I need from food and supplements (if needed), and track all of it for awhile until I am on a roll, balance-wise!

Panicface, thank you so much for starting this thread! You are SO right about Vitamin D! My doctor won't even send any of his patients for D tests anymore, as he says he has concluded that we ALL in Canada are deficient! Sad but true, however, forewarned is forearmed, right? Glad you have your calcium number too, and are on your way to relief! Good luck!
Marie

[blue moon]

Marie

First pack your cozzy,hat and thongs,then jump on qantas(I prefer Etihad) get off at Brisbane,we call it Bris-Vegas...lol,then you walk around to Virgin gate 47 to Townsville.I will meet you at airport,with a big sign and big smile.See you soon.

[pulisa]

Can I just ask why you are taking such high doses of D3? I just swig down a 1,000iu tablet and think I'm covering myself against all known evils I'm probably taking the wrong type of tablet but it has effectively raised my D levels.

[sial72]

Thank you so much Marie and Terry!!
Terry I take Magnesium Bisglicinado (in Spanish, maybe bysglicinate?) plus I also use transdermal. I taje powdered vit C, I will look into liposomal vit C.
Marie I will look into the alpha-lipoic acid.
Thanks again! X

[SADnomore]

Pulisa,

For covering off most all the things related to health that are dependent on it, you probably do have your bases covered with the 1,000 units of D you take now. But for example if you have the problems Panicface lists in his opening post here, then they may be the result of a severe Vitamin D deficiency as in his case. ... Sub-optimal Vitamin D is linked to depression, which I can believe is probably at least partly responsible for my SAD. I just started last year bumping it up for the winter, but since I have been reading more on its role in calcium absorption (K, too), I am keen on balancing it to keep that calcium going into my bones! My mother had osteoporosis, which makes me a bit more at risk for it, but my last bone scan was normal and I am happy about that!


Marie