Vitamin D deficency may be causing your problems

[MyNameIsTerry]

I've also seen an ongoing vitamin D study quoting 10,000IU per day to get people to the 40ng/ml level and this is still considered deficient. But there are some acknowleging <10,000UI per day to get into therange of 40-60ng/ml (50-70ng/ml being optimal):

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...pplements.aspx
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...the-truth.aspx

I did see some reference to how upping your count requires a bit of welly in terms of supplementation so that you shift it with a load more and then settle. I can't seem to find the reference now though. Marie, any ideas on this?

It does seem to be aboutreduction of risk factors and how old RDA's are a long way out of date.

My mum has osteoporosis and so did her mum.

---------- Post added at 08:16 ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 ----------

Thank you so much Marie and Terry!!
Terry I take Magnesium Bisglicinado (in Spanish, maybe bysglicinate?) plus I also use transdermal. I taje powdered vit C, I will look into liposomal vit C.
Marie I will look into the alpha-lipoic acid.
Thanks again! X

What type of transdermal do you use? I have the oil. From what I gather from the Ancient Minerals website, the oil is supposed to be best for levels of magnesium over things like the bath salt/flakes but not so sure on the creams. I wouldn't mind trying the creams though as the oil can make your clothes a little sticky unless you planon sitting in the buff for the 20 minutes of absorption!

Does the oil cause you problems because of it stinging?

Yeah, it is bysglicinate.

[sial72]

I use the oil and yes, sit in the buff for a while lol
I made my own oil from the flakes because for some strange reason they don't sell mag oil in Spain.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I'm having a look into making my own oil as it looks a much cheaper way and it would be good to have the odd bath with the flakes anyway. Marie posted a link on her SAMe thread so I need to have a read as Ancient Minerals were blogging about this and how the increase in certain contents if their flakes could be bad for people butt might just be their "mix" and I don't use their oil (far too expensive!).

I've just ordered some ionic magnesium. You might want to have a look at that too. I had to buy it from the US though! Far cheaper than the UK for the exact same product. Luckily the price reduction means it's under the VAT & Duty starting levels.

[pulisa]

Thanks for the explanation re what one should aim for with vitamin D levels. I'm sure I'm at risk of osteoporosis but haven't broken anything yet-touch wood. I've always tried to keep my calcium levels up without furring up my kidneys but, like everything, it's a balancing act!

[SADnomore]

Exactly, Pulisa! It's a balancing act. I know my doc thinks I go too in-depth about this, but you know what, I don't agree with their practice of not dealing with risk factors before the disease state is clear. The naturopathic physician I used to see took an extensive history from her patients, including parent's health and all. Among other things, this would reveal possible risk factors for disease, and then she could do in-depth testing for this. Firstly she started with a wide panel for bloodwork for all her patients, and went from there, which is a good strategy we just can't get from MDs here. Things come up that might not even show otherwise for years. She showed me the scale of "normal" for my thyroid results, for example, and how it was clear that my number was low on the "normal" range for this test. She then started me on a supplement that included porcine thyroid and re-tested in my next round of bloodwork. Voila, the number had come back up to mid-range of normal. And stayed that way! Disease prevention by managing risk factors and testing and treating (naturally). What a concept!

Unfortunately, no one gets such personalized medical care unless they pay for it. No way can I afford her any more! So I have accepted that my GP will, like most, only step in to test and treat once symptoms of disease have shown themselves. Prevention is up to me. I ask about any supplements I take that have any real risks attached to them, and listen to what he advises. Moreover, no matter how much I read, I know I will fail to grasp the significance of certain self-administration in terms of overall health, so, I keep things conservative. Supplements are a huge industry and they will have us believe we need huge numbers of them to stay healthy, but, as I say, we need to eat, anyway, so why not just eat to meet our needs, firstly? Then we can take into account the realistic failings of present day foods. For example, green grass feeding used to mean the goodness of the plants, from sun and soil, would go into meat, milk, and the butter and cheese made from them. Factory production relies instead on grains (chiefly corn which lacks most nutrients), and the animals no longer contribute what they did once, and high-heat processing pummels the rest. Soils are depleted of minerals, and these along with all the vitamins that we don't produce in our own bodies have got to be found somewhere, or our health will suffer.

This article is cheerfully optimistic about food sources, but hey, nothing wrong with that! It's a great place to start, particularly if you have access to farm-fresh produce and traditional dairy. (Methinks the monolithic industrial farms have likely not taken hold in the UK, so you lot may not need to worry about the "failings" bit so much.)
http://www.goodnet.org/articles/11-e...our-body-needs

One rule of thumb often discussed is that as we age, our bodies become less able to absorb what we need from the food we eat and other sources. Both men and women are affected, but for women this problem is even more pronounced.

"Older adults (50+), menopausal, and postmenopausal women: These individuals should consume vitamin B12, calcium, and a vitamin D supplement. Vitamin B12, calcium, and vitamin D, work together to maintain healthy bones and reduce the risk for fractures.

Vitamin B12 is absorbed less readily from foods as one ages. These individuals should receive vitamin B12 from fortified foods such as breakfast cereals, or through a dietary supplement.
Calcium may not be absorbed as well in older adults and this population may experience bone loss. A combination of calcium intake from both food sources and supplemental form is important.
Vitamin D is not produced as efficiently in older adults upon exposure to sunlight. Additionally, the ability of the kidney to convert vitamin D to a form that the body can use is also dampened with age." (Colorado State University)

Note that they don't mention Vitamin K. It is only now starting to become known just how it works in acting as a traffic director, shunting calcium away from joints and arteries, (and likely kidneys from our blood as well). The wide-scale supplementation of calcium recommended by doctors to older women may actually have caused the rise in heart disease in this population. Unbalanced by adequate vitamin K, it can and does end up in our arteries, new research has found.

Hence the need for a balanced, holistic approach to nutrition and supplements. THIS is why I am working so hard to balance out vitamins k and d and calcium. As I slowly raise vitamin D to offset lack of sun for the winter, I appreciate that it will boost calcium stores at the same time. I face the risk factors for osteoporosis but I am not willing to trade this off for heart disease. So, I am slow to supplement calcium as well, taking it firstly from dairy. That critical vitamin K is a challenge to introduce, partly because I get arthritis flares from greens. But since I don't currently have either osteoporosis or heart disease I have decided to be conservative with supplementation of K2, to start. As I increase vitamin D over the winter, I will increase my K2 as well. (K2, specifically the MK-4 type, provides direction of calcium into bones and teeth, but MK-7 does seem to help with arteries). A balanced supplement in a reasonable dose is what I am after.

I like the recommendation that Terry found for us; 100 mcg per 5-10,000 units of vitamin D we supplement with. Here is a 500 mcg K2 MK4 supplement I will probably take in mid-winter, along with 20,000 units of D. This should create an ideal balance for my dietary calcium plus supplemental calcium I will be taking by then.
https://m.vitacost.com/products/supe...rce-vitamin-k2

Terry, as you noted, the advisories for vitamin D vary widely, but personally, I honestly believe ALL of us in the northern parts of the world need to supplement with D, and in the winter, especially if we suffer from depression, by 10,000 units at least. But only IF this is balanced by K2 for the calcium deposits to bones and teeth. Lol!

Once again, here is that recipe from wellnessmama for homemade magnesium oil. I looked into those "manufacturer's links" she inserted. Again, call me a cynic, but the arguments of their commenters make sense; if the flakes are non-toxic in a bath, then they should be just fine as a topical oil. Read them if you like! I have concluded that they argue about making your own because they want you to continue buying their magnesium sprays and gels. It's easy enough to find out if the homemade works as well!
http://wellnessmama.com/5804/make-yo...magnesium-oil/
At the moment, I still have most of my bottle of magnesium gel to use up. I mix it lately with less of the distilled water than it says on the label, and it dries much faster that way. I'd get the chills sitting around long in the buff around here, ha ha!
Marie

[pulisa]

I know that here in the UK the GPs all push for vitamin D and calcium supplements for the elderly and housebound as a matter of course. I wonder how long it will take for the K2 "message" to hit home? Marie, you are way ahead of most of us on here and are probably the most Nutritionally Correct person on NMP! I bet my GP wouldn't have a clue what I was on about if I mentioned K2 supplementation...

I need to book in for an appointment with you, I think! I think I'm covered for Vit B12 as I'm a marmite addict!

[SADnomore]

Lol!! Well, I likely have to go to the big superstore in town, among the international aisles to find your marmite; (I wonder if it helps with iron as well?)

Indeed, I am afraid I have become OCD about the whole nutrition thing, mostly because I'm vegetarian, and it turns out we really do need to watch that we get enough of the things that are common in a diet that includes meat. Despite what all the vegan/vegetarian support pages have to say, the fact is that plants do not deliver the same kind of quantity or quality of important nutrients. And this includes protein, we only need to compare the nutritional listings to see it. So I still eat fish, shellfish and (when I can manage it), dairy. Eggs are nutritional powerhouses too!

I became aware that I needed to learn more when I tested low on iron a number of years after giving up meat. (I may have to look at the tablets again.) It came right with supplementation, but it got me started on reading about all the critical things our bodies can't produce. If I'm not eating something, then I look at the range of supplements I can find. From there, I have beaten to death every word about every single one of them, it seems, ha ha! But then, how else would I have found out about these imbalances? Really important to try to avoid those ...

I really have to say that just as we keep hearing, if we are going to consider supplements, we should optimize our dietary intake first. And enjoy little foodstuffs like your marmite, no doubt! So much of what we eat as whole foods has proper balance, and we may just need to remember things like having a vitamin C food with iron (like fresh orange juice!) and small amounts of fats throughout the day for vitamins absorption. Mangia, mangia!
Marie xx

---------- Post added at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:35 ----------

p.s., the Mercola links are probably the clearest I have seen for vitamin D requirements, and I can hardly believe it, but ... clearest too on the need to co-supplement with K2!

[MyNameIsTerry]

I will try and find that site about the 100mcg. It was some form of clinic doing high dose therapies but I don't know if it was a medical or naturopath one.

I agree with you on it all, Marie. I know it can seen like a lot of work and obsessive, but once it's done, we all benefit anyway. So, it's something we can maybe all piece together through places like this.

You want to look up liposomal vitamin C. Some docs are saying it rivals IV infusions. Near my house we have a main road and rosehips have spread all along it since it was built 18 years ago. Blackberries too. They don't spray them and the birds seem to leave them alone for some reason. Rosehips are supposed to be good for vitamin C, you just have to scoop out the hairs otherwise they irritate digestion.

On the subject of complete proteins, did you know that there are now studies of vegan proteins that have demonstrated a match to whey? Brown rice is the closest but it lack in one amino so they mix it with pea which is the highest in that amino so that you end up with a complete protein. I know you use pumpkin seed but thats less common from what I've seen. Hopefully that will gain in popularity though since they are a good source. I have toyed with just buying them and grinding them, which I used to do at first with my Nutribullet mixer.

On the K2, did you notice the problem with saturation? MK4 has a very short life in the body but MK7 is far longer. So, that seems a bit of a problem unless you plan on splitting it all out? Was there something about wastage too?

It's definately best to get everything from a food source if we can so we get all the enzymes & fibres too. It can be tricky though.

Sounds like a good argument to be knocking back the Serrapeptase too to eliminate the excess calcium deposits.

I will have a look at the link for making the oil (thanks again), just not had chance yet. Ancient Minerals were just saying how all ingredients in their flakes are much more concentrated because of the dilution of the bath so in an oil that could be a problem. They didn't say no, just advised against it so it sounds a bit ropey about whether those higher levels of other added ingredients (that are removed as they create the oil in a later process) are an issue or not. It certainly seems a lot cheaper doing it this way though.

[sial72]

Since I lost all my muscle mass due to illness my acupuncturist put me on hemp protein and it seems to be working.
Terry, I made my oil, very very easy to make and I find it effective although I can't compare to ready made oils because I have never tried one. I have only found it to sting a bit once, but I have been supplementing magnesium orally faithfully for about 5 months and I don't know if it is that but I am sleeping much better

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thanks, Sial. If it stings, it's obviously potent enough to deliver magnesium. I guess I will have to try it and see how it fairs against my current oil. It's an easy test for me because my knees ache and I can feel the change very quickly after applying it.

I've found it can sting, then stop, then sting again in the same area another day. So, I reckon I need something more regular on top of this to get my levels up as I've heard it can take a while. So, I've ordered the Angstromm stuff (ionic) to add a half dose (it's expensive).

I once applied it over a scratch I had done in my sleep. I didn't think with being in the routine. Yikes it did sting a fair bit for an our with it being a salt!

I haven't noticed any benefit other than to acheing joints. So, I'm probably not getting enough.