Top Trump: A Poem

[MyNameIsTerry]

They're not wrong, they're and most of all of us are absolutely getting screwed over. I'm just stating the data. It was something like 80% of white men with no degree, voted for Trump, whereas white men with degrees were about 60% voted against Trump. I do think it was an odd choice since he is one of those very same elites that does the screwing (and I'm not talking about his personal life!). Again, that very lack of any semblance of critical thinking - they just swallowed the line without looking at Trump's extensive business history of screwing over the little guy and profiting off of their hard work. There were plenty of other conservative candidates they could have chosen (who also may have supported this medical law, not saying this one is Trump's fault).

Terry - I suppose if it were a betting proposition, that the wiser bet would be that a sensationalist case would happen in those areas, but I suppose it could happen anywhere, just depends on the person involved. Plus if it's in a big city, well it would be easy to just find another doctor.

As for Alabama abortion laws, I'm not familiar with that one, but the general trend in deep red (conservative) states has been to try and pass laws that limit and hinder abortion access, yet aren't considered a direct conflict against the Supreme Court decision that legalized it in the first place. Although, there are now efforts to get a new case to the Supreme Court since it has been pushed to the conservative side with Trump's two appointments.


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But that still says 20% of them voted for Trump. When I've seen all this trotted out it has been along the binary lines of educated vs uneducated, racism vs liberal, etc. The reality is there is a mixture. Lots of women voted for Trump and they were dismissed in The Guardian as voted the way their husbands expected them to. But there are numbers of black, Hispanic, Muslim, etc who voted for Trump too.

The nature of much of our politics over here is a mixture of true believers, better him than the other bloke and the apathetic. Surely this is the case in the US too? Therefore the binary narrative being flogged was just a way to stoke up more division and not look at why people vote the way they do?

As for the elites, it might depend on who you regard them as? Certainly the billionaires but I think it's also about attitude. As N mentions, the educated elite who see themselves above others (well some of them, many don't as they are people and as diverse as the rest of us). Many politicians are in the elite, in my opinion, as they will rake in the cash whichever way it goes riding the gravy train that is career politics and many have no clue about the lives of the rest of us. These types of people argue they know better than we plebs. But we've spent hundreds of years fighting to get the common man's vote, the women's, vote, the equal rights of immigrants, etc so it's a very slippery slope back into the old days of us working ourselves to death for the great landowners if we want to go down the route into "our betters" doing the voting for us. Our histories differ on this but your civil rights movement springs to mind as a very good example.

Of course, there will be all the usual people who just read the front page of some scaremongering media outlet and go along with demonising people. But also in this age of the internet we actually have ways to research things that before were very limited to the communities we were a part of. Therefore many without a degree can be just as savvy. It never washes anyway as the non degree educated don't walk around wondering at the world around them and how a mobile phone works. Just as you can come across graduates who are a thick as brick or naïve. And all degrees are not equal.

[jray23]

But that still says 20% of them voted for Trump. When I've seen all this trotted out it has been along the binary lines of educated vs uneducated, racism vs liberal, etc. The reality is there is a mixture. Lots of women voted for Trump and they were dismissed in The Guardian as voted the way their husbands expected them to. But there are numbers of black, Hispanic, Muslim, etc who voted for Trump too.

The nature of much of our politics over here is a mixture of true believers, better him than the other bloke and the apathetic. Surely this is the case in the US too? Therefore the binary narrative being flogged was just a way to stoke up more division and not look at why people vote the way they do?

As for the elites, it might depend on who you regard them as? Certainly the billionaires but I think it's also about attitude. As N mentions, the educated elite who see themselves above others (well some of them, many don't as they are people and as diverse as the rest of us). Many politicians are in the elite, in my opinion, as they will rake in the cash whichever way it goes riding the gravy train that is career politics and many have no clue about the lives of the rest of us. These types of people argue they know better than we plebs. But we've spent hundreds of years fighting to get the common man's vote, the women's, vote, the equal rights of immigrants, etc so it's a very slippery slope back into the old days of us working ourselves to death for the great landowners if we want to go down the route into "our betters" doing the voting for us. Our histories differ on this but your civil rights movement springs to mind as a very good example.

Of course, there will be all the usual people who just read the front page of some scaremongering media outlet and go along with demonising people. But also in this age of the internet we actually have ways to research things that before were very limited to the communities we were a part of. Therefore many without a degree can be just as savvy. It never washes anyway as the non degree educated don't walk around wondering at the world around them and how a mobile phone works. Just as you can come across graduates who are a thick as brick or naïve. And all degrees are not equal.

Here in political demographics, anything above a 60/40 split is massive. Even in Texas or Georgia, Republican strongholds, there are still about 30-40% who vote Democrat. Even in California or New York, Democrat strongholds there are still 30-40% that vote Republican. So when they or I say "X" went strongly for that candidate it is just a blanket statement. Of course there are Hispanics for Trump, and there are African-Americans who voted against Obama, and there are gun-toting cowboys in Texas that voted for Hillary.

I think a lot of the US is "better him than the other guy" with each side having somewhat of a true believer base. I say screw both of them. Vote for the third-parties and independents.

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[jray23]

Hm. Noivous I am questioning those numbers. I'm a math/stats nerd (even though I'm not really great at it) and after the election I was looking at a ton of breakdowns of vote, not just education but location, city vs rural, all kinds of things. I recall the college education split being pretty massive. I wish I could remember what source I had been looking at. But perhaps we're all just looking at different exit polling. I found one pretty quick that shows a pretty strong split:.

Then there were post-election statistical analyses like this one:. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ote-for-trump/

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[MyNameIsTerry]

Here in political demographics, anything above a 60/40 split is massive. Even in Texas or Georgia, Republican strongholds, there are still about 30-40% who vote Democrat. Even in California or New York, Democrat strongholds there are still 30-40% that vote Republican. So when they or I say "X" went strongly for that candidate it is just a blanket statement. Of course there are Hispanics for Trump, and there are African-Americans who voted against Obama, and there are gun-toting cowboys in Texas that voted for Hillary.

I think a lot of the US is "better him than the other guy" with each side having somewhat of a true believer base. I say screw both of them. Vote for the third-parties and independents.

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Yes, it would be here. But behind those %'s we have real numbers too and there obviously has to more willingness that they stand for both sides than denigrate the opposition, after all they are voters and not their political sparring partners. Otherwise we end up with lost groups of people who feel edged out. That's a reason why you are where you are and we are where we are (Brexit).

I agree with you, 2 party holds us back. It encourages them to not care as much as they could as they know it will just swing back and forth so they just bide their time. In Europe coalitions are much more common and we probably need more of that. At least a weakening of the 2 big players is needed. We are seeing some of that at the moment (local council elections took place this week and both major parties got panned in favour of third party and even independents. But these aren't MP's, they are local government).

[Noivous]

The educated elites are folks who say things like - "Most of the people who voted for Trump never went to college." I mean what is the point in saying that. They confuse college education with intelligence. Education is nothing more than exposure to something. Whether it be in the hallowed halls of Harvard University or the back alley bar rooms of the Bowery no one is uneducated. Intelligence is another matter entirely.

In Trump the working class (both with and without college degrees) saw a fighter and likely champion for the things that mattered most to them and their families. Primarily jobs and wage growth that had been stagnant for 8 years. During the 2016 campaign Trump and the GOP became the party of the working class in America. And I don't believe that is going to change anytime soon.

N.

[MyNameIsTerry]

The educated elites are folks who say things like - "Most of the people who voted for Trump never went to college." I mean what is the point in saying that. They confuse college education with intelligence. Education is nothing more than exposure to something. Whether it be in the hallowed halls of Harvard University or the back alley bar rooms of the Bowery no one is uneducated. Intelligence is another matter entirely.

In Trump the working class (both with and without college degrees) saw a fighter and likely champion for the things that mattered most to them and their families. Primarily jobs and wage growth that had been stagnant for 8 years. During the 2016 campaign Trump and the GOP became the party of the working class in America. And I don't believe that is going to change anytime soon.

N.

I wonder if they think these people are just stacking their shelves and carrying stuff about for them? Exactly how educated are your police officers, infantry soldiers, etc. These people do a damn sight more for our countries than an accountant does.

If 80% of those with college degrees voted for Clinton, the educated, what exactly makes the 20% who voted for Trump less so? When does 20% become millions of people? Percentages hide many truths and it's worth considering the real numbers. If you said 20% of black people voted for Trump would they be dismissed so easily by those arguing "well, 80% of black people voted for Clinton"? Wouldn't that be like saying some black people matter, others not so much?

There also needs to be consideration for other factors e.g. people with degrees tend to move away. If you want to earn big bucks in the UK you move to London. In my city a degree is largely moot unless you have a profession e.g. doctor, accountant, lawyer. Otherwise you will packing boxes or working in a call centre alongside those who didn't study for a degree.

And you have to be careful making points about education. This narrative about "the educated voted the right way", something that was pushed over Brexit, led to lots of superior sneering. That doesn't encourage voters to your side, quite the opposite. Again, next time you call the police perhaps consider the people turning up won't be your educated set but they will protect you from those you fear.

[jray23]

I wonder if they think these people are just stacking their shelves and carrying stuff about for them? Exactly how educated are your police officers, infantry soldiers, etc. These people do a damn sight more for our countries than an accountant does.

If 80% of those with college degrees voted for Clinton, the educated, what exactly makes the 20% who voted for Trump less so? When does 20% become millions of people? Percentages hide many truths and it's worth considering the real numbers. If you said 20% of black people voted for Trump would they be dismissed so easily by those arguing "well, 80% of black people voted for Clinton"? Wouldn't that be like saying some black people matter, others not so much?

There also needs to be consideration for other factors e.g. people with degrees tend to move away. If you want to earn big bucks in the UK you move to London. In my city a degree is largely moot unless you have a profession e.g. doctor, accountant, lawyer. Otherwise you will packing boxes or working in a call centre alongside those who didn't study for a degree.

And you have to be careful making points about education. This narrative about "the educated voted the right way", something that was pushed over Brexit, led to lots of superior sneering. That doesn't encourage voters to your side, quite the opposite. Again, next time you call the police perhaps consider the people turning up won't be your educated set but they will protect you from those you fear.

And our police officers, firefighters, soldiers, etc. do not get paid nearly enough for what they do. Most of them don't even make an average salary. It's a shame really. Is it like that in the UK too? And they are quite educated for their line of work of course, even if they aren't formally educated.

To campaigns though Terry, the demographic percentages do matter quite a bit. A campaign is essentially a giant marketing strategy. They crunch the data and figure out which demographics are to be their target audience. Which votes are they most likely to swing. Which need that little extra nudge to get up and go place their vote. They're going to go after convincing 5% of a demographic that's 50/50 to turn their way rather than trying to convince 5% of an 80/20 because the time and resources are limited. For example, Trump spent very little time on trying to convince African-Americans to vote for him other than a few tweets here or there or one-liners about creating jobs for them. It's not to say that someone who's bucking the trend doesn't have a valid opinion. They might even have a more well-thought out opinion than the majority of their segment.

Noivous is correct that education does not equal intelligence, and that intelligence is a more important factor when voting (or basically anything). (Although quite frankly almost none of us are intelligent enough about complex world political issues to make a qualified vote...but that's another topic I could go on about with a very unpopular opinion) However, there is a correlation between education and intelligence. If you take 100 random people without a specific educational level and measure them up against random 100 people with that level, there will be some overlap and maybe even the smartest one of them all will be in the non-education batch (I mean look at Bill Gates, he dropped out I don't think anyone questions his intelligence!) but the average intelligence is going to be higher on the side with higher education if the sample size is large enough. Could the more intelligent group make the wrong decision though is basically the question we are discussing. Yes, that can happen. But it's less likely to happen than the opposite way. Education does matter. This idea that it doesn't (which is pervasive here in the US) is ludicrous and ass-backwards. It shouldn't be a cause for superiority or snootiness, just as physical fitness shouldn't be, but it should not be demonized. Education should be a valued idea to be aspired to. Even if it means getting educated through an unconventional route as N suggested.

As for cities, that is a great point about moving. In the 2016 election (again can't remember the source I saw two years ago. I may have even just looked each of the 40 up individually to see the winners), 37 out of the 40 most populous US cities went for Clinton. Over 90%! That included cities in VERY conservative states, such as those in Texas, Atlanta, Louisville, Nashville, Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, etc. If I recall correctly Phoenix and two other smaller ones (Jacksonville, FL one maybe?) were the only of those 40 cities that Trump won in. The movement of educated people to cities could be a role in that result although I believe the higher racial diversity of most cities probably was another factor in that result. That result is also reflected in the breakdown that Trump supporters like to brandish, about how about 95% of all counties in the US favored Trump showing a US map of almost all red. Well they did. And the cities favored Clinton. It was very consistent throughout the country that way.

As for Trump and the GOP being the party for the working class. Sure, they're marketing themselves that way. But their actions don't show it. They just gave a permanent 14% tax cut to corporations even though our debt is higher than ever, while giving the working class a temporary tax cut of only a couple percent. There is no party for the working class in the USA. Neither of them give a hoot about us except if we give them our vote or not. Wage growth has been stagnant for 30+ years, not 8. It's not because of any one leader.

[Hollow]

Along with Syria, Venezuela is now taking the war to the Globalists. The failed coup against Maduro shows that the dying American empire does not have the strength to overthrow legitimate governments at will.

[Hollow]

As for Trump and the GOP being the party for the working class. Sure, they're marketing themselves that way. But their actions don't show it. They just gave a permanent 14% tax cut to corporations even though our debt is higher than ever, while giving the working class a temporary tax cut of only a couple percent. There is no party for the working class in the USA. Neither of them give a hoot about us except if we give them our vote or not. Wage growth has been stagnant for 30+ years, not 8. It's not because of any one leader.

Does America Have an Economy or Any Sense of Reality?

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...se-of-reality/

We are having a propaganda barrage about the great Trump economy. We have been hearing about the great economy for a decade while the labor force participation rate declined, real family incomes stagnated, and debt burdens rose.

I have pointed out for years that the jobs reports are fabrications and that the jobs that do exist are lowly paid domestic service jobs such as waitresses and bartenders and health care and social assistance. What has kept the American economy going is the expansion of consumer debt, not higher pay from higher productivity. The reported low unemployment rate is obtained by not counting discouraged workers who have given up on finding a job.

[KK77]

Does America Have an Economy or Any Sense of Reality?

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...se-of-reality/

We are having a propaganda barrage about the great Trump economy. We have been hearing about the great economy for a decade while the labor force participation rate declined, real family incomes stagnated, and debt burdens rose.

I have pointed out for years that the jobs reports are fabrications and that the jobs that do exist are lowly paid domestic service jobs such as waitresses and bartenders and health care and social assistance. What has kept the American economy going is the expansion of consumer debt, not higher pay from higher productivity. The reported low unemployment rate is obtained by not counting discouraged workers who have given up on finding a job.

Ah! You mean rather like the UK economy and the sleight-of-hand "low" unemployment stats, comprising folk with what I call "semi-jobs": self-employed, many on zero-hours contracts, and even more juggling two or more "semi-jobs"

And we all know one cannot get very far with a "semi" of any sort