the EU & the UK

[mezzaninedoor]

I keep reading when you are talking about throwing darts at Tony Blair that you are throwing darts at me

I bought the Tony Blair Third Way until Iraq and Bush. 'twas a shame because he had some good centre Left policies but then also had the awful PFI's and the Iraq war.

Regarding Remainers moaning, I think its fair to say that there are some of us who are happy to debate the pro's & con's however there are people entrenched on both sides Leave & Remain who are just spouting rhetoric.

There are lots of reasons I wanted to remain in the EU and none of them were regards losing my cleaner or cheap labour or etc..... I also accept that the EU isnt perfect but you cant change something from outside of it. The EU isn't just an uneven community of members it also bullies Africa to some degree and has ensured that Africa is outside the Tent trying to trade but I feel/felt that the EU was on balance a positive for the UK, across the UK though I accept that locally there are definite hotspots ( partly due to the failiure of the distribution of refugess & the like ) where people feel unhappy about the EU. I don't accept the sovereignty argument.

[mezzaninedoor]

one of the issues with Churchill was that he wasnt very accomplished in peacetime and some of his peacetime policies were never going to command the peoples support.

I think you are right about marginal differences for some of us and extreme differences for some of us.

I understand what you are saying about people who had voted IN in the 70;s now voting to leave, has some weight. However doesn't the fact that the Young also generally support FOM have some weight as well, its there future.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Terry... when I was writing about a "close season on princes", I must have had half-a-mind on something else. Then you mentioned "shoving an apple in a spitted Andy's mouth" and I realised what my thinking was: Carry On Up the Khyber...!

Brother Belcher: That's the fakir's head! They've killed him!
Sir Sidney: Well, that's dashed unsporting.
Brother Belcher: Unsporting?
Sir Sidney: Yes, it's the close season for fakirs.
Brother Belcher: I don't believe it. I don't believe it!
Sir Sidney: No, it's true. Here (Looking in diary). Here we are. April 1st to September 30th.

(NB: This also just happens to be the close season on pedant shooting!)

Will it be a case of more tiffin while the masonry is falling around us until we decide it's time to reveal what's under our Brexit kilts?

[mezzaninedoor]

I guess we disagree on it being a high price. As a Leaver you see it as a high price, as a Remainer I see that there are benefits associated.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Mez… I wrote out a reply, posted it, then lost it when I added an edit. Never mind

The important part of my reply was my question to you: What do the UK’s young people get out of FOM? Is it worth the very high price we’re all having to pay.

What % of them use it? I don't mean holidays. I suspect few.

Which begs the question why they see it as so important? Surely the economic advantages are the main reason for unity? Regulatory compliance and political union and not forgetting equalisation of social standards. But no, it's FOM.

I find that strange as it's a nice to have for the vast majority of the country who will never use it beyond a quicker queue when passing customs. I question whether they have been told it's important.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Regarding Remainers moaning, I think its fair to say that there are some of us who are happy to debate the pro's & con's however there are people entrenched on both sides Leave & Remain who are just spouting rhetoric.

There are lots of reasons I wanted to remain in the EU and none of them were regards losing my cleaner or cheap labour or etc..... I also accept that the EU isnt perfect but you cant change something from outside of it. The EU isn't just an uneven community of members it also bullies Africa to some degree and has ensured that Africa is outside the Tent trying to trade but I feel/felt that the EU was on balance a positive for the UK, across the UK though I accept that locally there are definite hotspots ( partly due to the failiure of the distribution of refugess & the like ) where people feel unhappy about the EU. I don't accept the sovereignty argument.

This is why I mentioned you specifically because I was bringing up some views , which to me don't fit people like yourself who want better for everyone. I've found many of these vocal Remainers on politics forums show their argument is primarily about money and they let slip things like cleaners, not having more expensive cars, and lost profits for their businesses, etc and I question how they see themselves as fitting with many of the people struggling? Some of them, in other threads, talk about not touching the NHS anyway and have private health treatment. Maybe they are LibDems but they sound so Tory to me. Middle class. Other than their money it doesn't seem to many others touch them. They are annoyed by standing longer in a queue in an EU airport than they should be about domestic issues many of us face.

I understand what you mean about being inside the tent. Initially I thought this and I had to weigh it up in my vote. In the end I went with change because there is only one way the EU will go and we are holding it back on that course but who knows in the future. We can't say for sure it will remain as democratic as it is and it doesn't sit right with me anyway that we have an Austrian far right so high up now who may try to influence it farther right.

You mentioned sovereignty earlier. I agree, I think that one has been whipped up the media and the agendas of the out group of politicians over the years. But I do take issue with the EU Commission. It is elected, fair enough, but by people we put in power. But the EU is too large and some of these countries are veering into political groupings I know I don't want to aligned to. I question how much control we have if other countries are set on a different way. Some want federalisation and I'm against that. Some want to veer farther right and I'm against that. I suspect this will ebb back & forth but I do expect federalisation to take place or try to.

I've seen an argument against this "taking back control" where the House of Lords has been cited as an unelected body. But I suspect a referendum to replace them would be much clearer. And I want all levels of government accountable and changed for the better. The argument this now makes us hostage to our own government is moot because the EU is only one element of change.

Leaver = racist, xenophobe.

Scottish Nationalist = patriot.



The Scots dislike Westminster because the SNP have so little say in our voting due to the size of the main parties. Many of them don't like those main parties, some want independence and others might prefer SNP policies for other reasons. But don't they have a view their votes counts for naught because they are a minority in Parliament? That sounds just like the EP to me. We can vote in a MEP but unless you have a cross-nation grouping working together he/she might as well be an independent MP or small party. What power do they have to push things or steer them?

That doesn't sound so different to the argument of many of us outside of London. They care about London, not so much the rest of us.

We have an example right now in the changes to online digital content rights. The Tories get a lot of flack over trying to introduce internet controls, and I'm for & against when it comes to the internet depending on issues & intent, but the media coverage is slight when it comes to the potentially major change the EU has voted through. We have campaigns to stop this legislation, including big names like Berners-Lee, but it goes through anyway...without any of us even being asked. The legislation is so unclear we don't know how much it will impact us because it's not just about copyright tightening but may cause we plebs to get taxed over planting a picture off another site, or even a snippet from an article, which affects even me on this forum.

What brought this legislation to us? A small working group of MEP's, obviously due to pressure from the media companies. The EP rejected an area but it came back and went through. Now we wait to hear how it will develop.

Of course, the legislation dumps the need for control, and potentially levy taxes on us, onto the search companies. That's nice. The campaigners against this say there isn't even a technical solution to achieve it at the current time.

[MyNameIsTerry]

There are always pros...





Sorry, I was watching Spaceballs earlier and couldn't help myself





Imagine Brooks releasing much of his stuff these days? The anti Semitism rants would be raging given all the Jewish stereotyping. Blazing Saddles would have probably started a war off in the US and calls for canning it.

[Hollow]

one of the issues with Churchill was that he wasnt very accomplished in peacetime and some of his peacetime policies were never going to command the peoples support.

Churchill was one of the biggest war criminals to ever roam the earth. He was the Tony Blair of his time, a satanic traitor who served foreign interests. Just like Fallujah, the massacre of Dresden will never be forgotten.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Churchill was one of the biggest war criminals to ever roam the earth. He was the Tony Blair of his time, a satanic traitor who served foreign interests. Just like Fallujah, the massacre of Dresden will never be forgotten.

A bit like the nightly massacres we had from the fuhrer then eh?

Stopping Hitler perhaps a bit more important than anything Zionist to most in the UK at the time. It paved the way to many people having the freedom to post their beliefs on the internet today

[MyNameIsTerry]

Churchill is a symbol of appeasement...





Appoint me Mr President. My first action shall be to replace Knighthoods with Shitehoods. I expect the honours ceremony to take a lot longer than now as it will be a celebration of a greater volume of worthy candidates. Many will be simple transfers from the old award. Mr Beckham will finally get one