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Thread: the EU & the UK

  1. #1271
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Pain View Post
    Brexit Day + 47

    Now we have Mrs May going for another ‘trial by torture’ in presenting her ‘deal’ yet again. If anyone’s lost count, this will be her fourth attempt. This sad, recurrent spectacle is set for the 3rd June. If by some weirdly unholy miracle she should succeed and get it through it will be truly a sign of fudgery – not a ‘finger of fudge’ but two fingers… to everyone.

    There’s been a load of blethering on about Nigel‘I’m-remainers-worst-nightmare’Farage not rising to Heidi Allen’s bait of a televised head-to-head argument on the merits of Brexit. She called him a “coward”. He called her “Who is she? (Perhaps he should have completed that epithet *“Who is she who must be obeyed?”). Mr Farage is an extremely well-versed political campaigner who, like every other commander throughout history, knows there’s no place in a successful strategy for fighting battles which don’t need to be fought.


    *From the novel She by H. Rider Haggard
    Isn't she splitting it to just the WA to see if MP's will at least vote that through?

    Question: If she backed down and allowed a Labour CU added to her deal would it gather enough support to squeak over the line? Starmer wants a confirmatory vote as well, something his boss Jezza said he doesn't want and they all seem to be arguing over whether is considered party policy or not.

    Back to the WA though:

    https://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showth...the-UK/page144

    EU laws are enshrined, as expected, but we can start departing from them which raises issues that are dealt with in May's trade relationship deal. Standards are not covered by the WA.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ion/19/enacted

    Section 19 doesn't stop divergence from EU agencies therefore it doesn't solve any of the flying, meds, law or anything else issues. Haulage permits are separate though die to separate Acts I believe.

    And how about this gem:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ion/18/enacted

    A customs arrangement must be laid down. This is again where May's deal come into play.

    So, can someone tell me how they can vote on the WA without May's deal? Those sections at least cause conflicts.
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  2. #1272
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Our membership of the EU gives a/c to the CEBB supports 3.1 million jobs directly and indirectly. Agricultural job stability is provided for 500000 workers in the farming industry by subsidies that the UK government may not replace/continue. Consumer Protection has been increased by the EU, some folks wanting Brexit want to peel back Consumer protection and workers rights. It offers greater protection from terrorists, paedophiles ( this week a huge european paedophile ring was bust by collaboration ) , people traffickers and cyber-crime. According to the CBI & SME's, 67% to 71% of Business have a positive impact from membership of the EU. Access to European energy, transport and digital service markets add £1000 per person to the UK economy. They provide a regulatory framework for the 88% ( ive seen different figures to that , 310bn out of 1200bn or some such) through joint EU trade deals which benefit the UK as a member, its not a negative point that you make. The USA is waiting for the UK to leave to plunder the UK as an export market. The EU promotes peaceful stability on the continent. More than 50% of our exports go to EU countries. Inward investments will be less certain if we leave the EU, some of these have already dried up. Now I agree that Brexit is not just an economic argument but the economic argument for leaving the EU for me does not stack up. There are bad things within the EU that we will lose influence over, what it did to Greece, how it deals with evolving African economies through trade.
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  3. #1273
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    So, May has finally been pushed into a corner about leaving. And now we face the spectre of a Tory leadership campaign and Boris is throwing his hat in

    Oh well, despite an agreement (hopefully) on the EU argument by then it will stop everything again for a bit and kick it all down the road as anything that needs to be decided will be covered over by all the grandstanding.
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  4. #1274
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzaninedoor View Post
    Our membership of the EU gives a/c to the CEBB supports 3.1 million jobs directly and indirectly. Agricultural job stability is provided for 500000 workers in the farming industry by subsidies that the UK government may not replace/continue. Consumer Protection has been increased by the EU, some folks wanting Brexit want to peel back Consumer protection and workers rights. It offers greater protection from terrorists, paedophiles ( this week a huge european paedophile ring was bust by collaboration ) , people traffickers and cyber-crime. According to the CBI & SME's, 67% to 71% of Business have a positive impact from membership of the EU. Access to European energy, transport and digital service markets add £1000 per person to the UK economy. They provide a regulatory framework for the 88% ( ive seen different figures to that , 310bn out of 1200bn or some such) through joint EU trade deals which benefit the UK as a member, its not a negative point that you make. The USA is waiting for the UK to leave to plunder the UK as an export market. The EU promotes peaceful stability on the continent. More than 50% of our exports go to EU countries. Inward investments will be less certain if we leave the EU, some of these have already dried up. Now I agree that Brexit is not just an economic argument but the economic argument for leaving the EU for me does not stack up. There are bad things within the EU that we will lose influence over, what it did to Greece, how it deals with evolving African economies through trade.
    If subsidies don't continue won't the farmers campaign to the government to introduce it?

    Some corporate types would always love to reduce standards. That includes Remain types too. When it comes to spending loads to satisfy regulations how many business types would sacrifice their profits if they really had too? Don't we need regulatory bodies and law simply because so many companies would flout it if we didn't? And yet they still do and get into trouble for it.

    Workers rights. The EU introduces a standard, which is good. But don't we have a higher standard of rights compared to other EU nations? So, how did that happen? We did it. Our labour movement. Why would they let it slide if we leave? What if is only slid to match the lower standards of certain other EU states? All perfectly legal in the EU, not legal in the UK though.

    Security goes well beyond EU borders. Don't we work with intelligence agencies worldwide? Is Five Eyes an EU project? So, if our intelligence services need to work together, they will. What stops them? The WA just says they have the right to stop working together, it doesn't stipulate they should or have to. Law enforcement would surely take the same approach? Doctors have long collaborated without all this so why can't these?

    How many joint EU trade deals can be grandfather in? How many are relevant to us? I've seen many countries in those trade deals we barely even trade with according to the ONS. There are question marks over some of the newer ones though which might be beneficial, which I admit I need to catch up on a bit, but Canada is unimportant to us in the EU deal.

    Inward investment. What investment? Is this the one where we send them a ton of money, we get a rebate as Thatcher agreed, and then people in the UK have to approach an EU body to ask for grants? And does that grant come out of EU money or the money we sent over to them? This argument is all about governing ourselves and I find it a strange one that this is really a plus of the EU. We already have government grants, we can do this on our own. And if our governments mismanage it we can voice our unhappiness at the voting booth. Why do we need an EU body to allocate our own funds to us? The issue of lack of the funding then becomes about whether our government is going what we want.

    The US. The EU were working on a trade deal with them, one that could open the door to NHS plundering under the form of TTIP. Even people in other European states were protesting against it. The question for us is going to be whether we really need a US trade deal or whether we are secure enough without them. What if we are financially stable enough not to be dependant on a US trade deal?

    The CBI numbers are hardly surprising considering business is what the EU model is about. But it's not just the EU, it's globalisation too. Business works this way now no matter which country you are in and no businessman is going to want to pay higher local fees for something he can cheaply import from another country. Just ask people where I live, it's what killed our pottery industry off as the companies just shipped off out of the UK and made everyone redundant. The same with our steel & coal industries. What if a trade deal removes tariffs, keeps our standards the same and prevents customs checks? Won't that be status quo for business?

    We need to remember that the government we have now is not their forever. If they start reducing workers rights why not vote in Labour? Isn't this the point of opposition? If both parties had similar polices then I could this being a serious concern but I just don't buy this slash & burn we are being sold.
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  5. #1275
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    If Boris becomes PM will Brexit morph into Bo(d)Jit?

  6. #1276
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    So am I wrong in thinking that the Conservatives are going to get wiped off the planet next week?

    How will the CUK party fair?

  7. #1277
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    So am I wrong in thinking that the Conservatives are going to get wiped off the planet next week?

    How will the CUK party fair?
    They got wiped off the planet a few weeks ago at the local elections which are only 2nd to the importance of a General Election. The EP election is purely to vote in MEP's in the EU and were never expected to happen as we should have withdrawn by then. Whoever gets the jobs will likely only be there for a matter of months so this is more an opportunity for a protest vote against our own government, to tell them we still want out and not what many loud voices have been saying about polls for the last two years, rather than an election for people we want to do something for us or represent us.

    Polls have ben showing we have changed our minds or have back peddled due to the facts we are being shown that we weren't aware of pre referendum. The trouble is that narrative doesn't tally with all the currently polls showing The Brexit Party surging from nothing to the most popular within months of creation. What it may mean is that May's deal is unpopular hence Leavers are united with Remainers in polls against it, something that is already known really. But if it meant we had changed our minds in the vast numbers we have been told, why is TBP getting anywhere? Have we all swung back again? Or maybe we were told a load of BS by some very invested media parties

    Which polls are right? Or is it more what we are told they "should" mean?

    In a recent poll the LibDems have even surged ahead of Labour to 2nd place which you would expect to mean a strong Remain backing by people deserting Labour and maybe the Tories to a smaller extent. Corbyn won't come out for Remain despite so many in his party saying he should and that could easily see them take a hit as the LibDems take seats. But again, only for a few months as we are supposed to be leaving.

    Here is the current list:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...014–2019

    Look at TBP on 14 and they haven't even sat in any elections. Those are UKIP defections. Already they have nearly as many as the two big parties and that shows, along with how UKIP even got into those seats, how EP elections are greatly different to GE and LE's. UKIP couldn't get anywhere in those.

    The LibDems will soar in this as they take seats from Labour I reckon. The Tories will get wiped out in favour of TBP.

    CHUK? Who are they? They didn't field any candidates in the LE's but have in the EP. I can't see them getting anywhere. Whilst they support Remain they are a broader church of Labour & Tory defectors, some of them with very clear agendas that drove them there as opposed to thinking the people e.g. Umunna, Soubry, etc. Umunna was too gutless to go up again Corbyn in his leadership challenges but that's the job he wants. I think people will see the LibDems as the most open party for Remain as CHUK are still propping up the Tories in some votes and that has been criticised.

    Unless a lot of MP's defect to CHUK can anyone see them being anything other than a future wipe out in the GE's? They have 2 MEP's which will be due to defections.

    But the EP's are not quite our normal model, just look at how independents are beating major parties like the SNP.
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  8. #1278
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by pulisa View Post
    If Boris becomes PM will Brexit morph into Bo(d)Jit?
    Yep

    Isn't he leading the betting now?!!!

    In other news, Farage has got a Brexit bus
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  9. #1279
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    So I love the BBC. I love the idea of the Reithian Educate, Entertain, Inform but I think Lord Hall has a problem on his hand at the BBC as I think current affairs at the BBC is in a bit of a mess recently.

    1. Today programme has a right wing bias that is obvious
    2. Andrew Marr has a left wing bias
    3. Question Time seems to be in love with certain political characters like Nigel Farage which undermines its currency
    4. It feels to me like we need a fact finding current affairs programme on the BBC that polices the BBC current affairs news, perhaps after Newsnight on a Friday would be nice

    ALSO the after dinner speaking route leads us to an outfit called The Speaker Bureau which touts such corporation luminaries as Andrew Marr, Laura Kuenssberg, Michael Buerk, Andrew Neil, John Pienaar, and Newsnight's Kirsty Wark and Nick Watt as "specialist Brexit speakers" for conferences and events, alongside overtly partisan figures such as David Davis, Liam Fox and Nick Timothy.

    It just all feels like we have a current affairs team at the BBC that is recelling in Brexit perhaps for all the wrong reasons ???
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  10. #1280
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Another interesting poll. Sad that Labour are spinning everything as a far right issue: https://amp.theguardian.com/politics...ch-to-lib-dems
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