Originally Posted by mezzaninedoor
""""How about ‘Nouveau Cosmopolitans’ or ‘Intelligentsia Redux’ for remainers…?
And ‘Pragmatic Revivalists’ or ‘National Liberationists’ for leavers…?"""
Interesting ideas there @Pain , Im not taking offence as an Arch-RemainerHowever I would say that pragmatism definitely isnt soley with the Leavers as the ERG have failed to be pragmatic in any sense in recent weeks. I think the labels we give each other and the labels we give ourselves really do make for interesting reading.
I spent Saturday evening discussing Brexit with a Union member who was definitely anti-EU and with good reason. I could see his arguments and he made them clearly. He saw the EU as something that was anti-Liberal and anti-Worker and I've always accepted that the EU is not a good friend of emerging economies. The EU has provided plenty of maternity rights over recent years, EU law delivered the rights to holiday pay for part time workers, in 1982 the EU commission took legal actions against the UK government to get equalpay for work of equal value, its because of EU law that harassment is in the UKs sex descrimination act, the EU working directive protects workers to no more than 47 hours a week unless they opt out, theres other stuff as well.
I think the value of the EU is nuanced for everyone and I think the result of 52-48 % is nuanced as well so I accept we lost the argument in the referendum as remainers but we didnt lose it such that we should expect the UK to crash out of the EU on No Deal.
But would we have got there through our own activism? We have plenty. Our friends on the continent are often thought more advanced in their liberal ways but at the same time they also have issues we don't have that are a contradiction e.g. banning burkhas, putting immigrants in isolated facilities (hostile environment? They are said to be leaving such places), police that make ours look like social workers (recent Spanish jackboots, Polish police hammering protesters on the ground who were marching for employment rights, Italy and open Nazi salutes, the Hungarian immigrant hunters?).
I would hope we would have got their eventually on our own but I would agree we have benefitted in social ways too.
It's interesting he was a union member as we are told union members support Remain, something I have always regarded as suspicious. I've been in working class circles all my life and they are anti Tory and pro worker. Bussing in tons of cheap labour is as anti worker and pro Tory as you get. It's they who see their services suffer too, not the bosses. For the same reasons I am suspicious about Labour polling pro Remain but that might be more due to the influx of Momentum? Or maybe it's the disconnect between metropolitan and more northern Labour?
I think it's a mixed bag and there are no good and bad guys but some of each.
I can see the benefits to our combined economic strength in negotiations but at the same time recognise flaws in equality. The equality issues aren't being addressed and attempts to do so have been met with a wall. This leads to stay as we are or try to change it in some way whether that means inward investment or breaking away. If we had much more inward investment then I feel FOM would become a non issue (not considering the housing issue and future sustainability).
The ECJ has it's faults but also it's good points. It has overturned our courts on issues that I felt benefitted those bringing the cases who I agreed with. But then I've also seen the ECJ claim it's not their responsibility at times.
If I felt we had more say in the EC and the direct of travel as well then things might be different. But is it that it's we who are different? I keep remembering Guy V saying he would love to erode our opt outs if we revoked A50, something he couldn't do anymore with the ECJ ruling would could revoke A50 without their agreement. That made me question whether that is coming anyway? What if the other 26 get sick of us and propose legislation to change this? How can be we stop them? We argue they are breaching the spirit of former treaties and they give us the option to leave? But we are too afraid to leave...
I don't see some shining beacon of how it should be in the EU. I see the usual flawed politics we have over here. We have Poland opposing them by rigging it's judiciary and whilst the EU impose sanctions on them they also get reminded of all the EU money they are given, something which again only makes we question the imbalance in relationships.
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If Leavers are on a spectrum then so are Remainers so surely there are many who also want change but saw the merits of not leaving or staying in, remembering they are not quite the same thing? And yes you can prove it, I voted Leave and have been saying all along I want trade deals (I was thinking a CETA+ thing though). 
