the EU & the UK

[MyNameIsTerry]

I thought this Brexit gig was cozza too many poles (Polish folk) taking your best fish n chip shop jobs. Then I read a blog what said it was cozza animal rights. So you should give animals the vote

Animal rights is an interesting one. What were they saying about that? I'm fine with animals having a vote, whoever we pick seems to be a bunch of morons anyway. Besides they might sniff out the wrong 'uns for us

We've had loads of Poles here since WWII and no issues. But then Blair opened the immigration floodgates to fill jobs and naturally people looking for a better life made use of it. Years later we have the NHS struggling worse because they haven't invested in it at the same pace they allowed immigration in and GP surgeries are overloaded. Wages have been supressed because employers don't need to pay as much knowing they have a steady stream of cheap labour coming in (and some employers go over there to bus them over here) and we get to Brexit.

There is a lot more involved than this but this is the crux of the immigration argument in Brexit. Germany saw what would happen and prevented higher levels of immigration when those floodgates were opened. But the EU expanding into countries that were struggling meant their people naturally saw a way to escape poverty, and who can blame them? The EU don't care, we are numbers to them and as long as big business is getting it's cheap labour they will happily ship off anywhere within the EU and sack anyone to save cash.

[MyNameIsTerry]

But thats the thing, reading 1 Blog does not make that true Pain.
It's hard to gather the proper empirical data about stuff thats subjective like that. Leavers trying harder to understand Remain, Remain trying harder to understand Leave position, the problem is we can all try to look beyond our own view but we are also in our own echo chambers at the same time.
I'm trying to look outside my own echo chamber but everything becomes partly polarised but also partly just stops making sense.

You state that Remainers see the EU as a responsible, respectable club of worthy and worthwhile idealism – all citizens of the world (albeit a world that only encompasses continental Europe and a few offshore territories) – which is certainly worth the costs in both money and freedom, and which only fools would want to eschew.

I don't think thats at all how all Remainers see the EU. I dont think there are freedoms being given up for the EU as you Leavers do, your projecting your Leave view onto a Remain view in part.

Brexit is not a War and I think the use of combatative language has been a big minus in the MPs sadly, its helped stoke division whereever its come from.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a6850626.html from 2016

I agree with you. You have the hardcore elements on either side but then there are more moderate people in huge numbers who can see good & bad in the EU just as they see good & bad in their own country. Hardcore elements will wave their flags and dismiss everything as they are true believers.

That link to the Indy is a good example of what you are both saying about the issues with source bias. The Indy raises just the good points, well it would being pro EU, and doesn't talk about the downsides of those points. For instance, we can travel more easily across the EU but then so can the terrorists once they are inside Schengen as has been proved in recent times. So, you have to weigh up whether it's worth it or not.

Roaming charges always make me laugh though. For business there is a need but the rest of it is about the new online culture who rather than enjoy their holiday are busy taking selfies on the beach to upload for some likes or reading their SM ignoring the sights around them. They don't need it anyway. For business I support trying to do something with it but couldn't care less otherwise as it's a purely nice to have.

It is also one used by the other side to deride young people who they say care more about this than other issues caused to society by the downsides of membership. They have a point as many are like that but then many aren't either.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Another "non paper" leaked about the border issue. https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/...079253-border/

[pulisa]

Sounds great! Can't wait! It will make a trip to Londinium that much more vulgar!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Will pearly kings and queens be replaced by orange tans and bad wigs?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Americans don't have a good track record in sales of British monuments so you might end up with the Cerne Giant instead of Big Ben (well he's got a big dong too )

[MyNameIsTerry]

Interesting poll about Labour which confirms what everyone everywhere seems to be saying about them - they are on the fence about Brexit and no one knows which way they will slide off once the splinters get to sore:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=spartanntp

[MyNameIsTerry]

Another "non paper" leaked about the border issue. https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/...079253-border/

Was it leaked deliberately to see what the reaction would be and now they are backpedalling? That does seem to happen with various policy ideas using the media as a sort of big focus group:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=spartanntp

It is also interesting to note multiple sources have mentioned the agri agreement that keeps those products to EU regs without being a backstop. But what is perhaps missed is whether we will be checking them as they cross the Irish Sea. It feels like the previous talks about the NI only backstop were speculation peddled by the media and what Boris & Varadkar had discussed was this agri zone. Then Boris discusses this with Juncker and we get the media nonsense about Boris slumping in his chair asking Barclay why it doesn't solve the issue and Juncker saying "the penny finally dropped" in an obvious piece to show our side don't have a clue.

Having checks at import/export companies seems possible but how will they deal with the SMEs? And none of this deals with the people who live & work so close that they cross the border multiple times a day as I posted another article about. It felt like they would be in the exclusion zone but the trouble is once you move it you only bring other people so close they end up stuck in the same problem.

Boris also seems to be saying no to NI only backstop a lot backing up the talks were for the agri zone only and that they haven't changed on that other than to find a bespoke solution to one area. The media say they are doing nothing though but that doesn't explain this solution. I guess we have to wait to see what they release post conference.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Whilst I agree with a closer North - South decision making body that's going to be tough to get past the EU as only the commission is allowed to do that. It will look bad if the EU refuse on that basis when ROI might be amenable to it but perhaps Varadkar will be again learning how the EU project is far more important than his concerns? Very sneaky Boris Of course getting Stormant to do any work might be a problem of it's own! This also looks like a can kicker too https://www.theguardian.com/politics...or-its-no-deal

[MyNameIsTerry]

An NI - ROI group also likely ticks some GFA boxes Given it affects a border into the mainland there must be decision making that includes the government and the same for the EU. I expect ROI would be very happy for this, and it puts the UK government in a good light in supporting the all Ireland economy, but I can't see the EU wearing it as it will be a precedent against the commission role.

Why not ditch GoNU and try GoNAD? Government of National Anti Democracy.

It's funny even using the word unity when they themselves are infighting over the leader and they haven't even considered the rest of the ministerial roles which will be a bun fight. I imagine Umunna will be trying to grease his way into power via the back door.

It's Remain anyway. The Plaid leader even went as far as saying this caretaker government should be focused on stopping Brexit and getting a second referendum in place which likely means negotiations with the EU. Sounds more like a full government to me

It's just another revoke campaign to some.