the EU & the UK

[mezzaninedoor]

Theres a lot of spin out there regards the EU and another thing is the idea that we have to abide by all these EU laws, The Outies would have us believe they make up 40%+, the Innies that its towards 7% that actually affect us. The truth is somewhere between that as with everything.

Its true we are an island and both the Tories and Labour have sat on their hands regards immigration for some time. We could have had the conversation that Cameron had earlier this year about 10 years ago in theory following the previous charter change.

I really don't want to be a Little Englander as I think it says plenty about the UK that we have benefitted so much from immigration over the years and we do have a thriving multi cultural society that I don't want the likes of Britain First to defame in the way that they do, that incenses me.

I want the UK to be welcoming, I want the UK to be a bastion of human rights and help to refugees, I probably want economic immigration to be a points system personally, bit like Oz but we can work on this stuff over time with the EU.

I really feel we are better off In and Influenceing than Out and finding out some stark truths about the implications of that over the next 10 years. It isn't as simple as the Brexiteers make it with all the money back in our pockets and spent on the NHS, in fact the Brexiteers dependant on who you listen to seem to spend this money not once not twice but thrice.

I think from this debate Im probably in the minority but my assessment is still 'In'

[NoPoet]

Britain defeated Germany, France and Spain in war while these countries were the pre-eminent powers of the continent. Britain defeated Hitler and Napoleon. Yeah we had allies, what country doesn't, and I'm not trying to minimise their roles, particularly the Commonwealth and the USA. My point is, Britain has defeated and rescued Europe, Britain had the largest and most powerful empire the world has ever known. Britain is the USA's buffer against Russia in the Atlantic. Britain is the USA's gateway into Europe.

Britain has always enjoyed significant advantages which have been progressively whored away since WW2.

We have never needed Europe as much as Europe needs us. Don't let any self serving politicians tell you otherwise. If the Tories tell you something is vital to our country, it will make them money. That isn't the same as helping the country. But they don't know, understand or care about that.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think the days of our empire are well and truly over. Britain didn't defeat Germany, a collection of allies did. Russia turned on Germany too. The world had changed by then since our bigger glory days.

Dynasties fall, world powers change, we move forward. What matters is now.

I think things have changed a bit since then.

We don't need anyone, life will always go on but the question is better, worse or no difference. We certainly won't be plunging into world war III and no plagues of locusts will be engulfing us either.

Politicians are all the same, it's not just the Tories. Labour are just a bunch of Tories themselves. I don't believe any of them are in it for us.

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

It will be interesting to see what happens to Gibraltar if we do leave. Let's hope our government pursue the EU into some form of agreement to stop Spain making life hard for them.

I also wonder how likely the French will be to do anything about immigration when we can't seem to get anything now as members?

[NoPoet]

I think the days of our empire are well and truly over. Britain didn't defeat Germany, a collection of allies did.

I did point that out. Britain was the leader of "The Allies" and ceded some military control to the USA given their increasingly massive contribution. Japan also ignored Hitler and attacked the USA instead of Russia. Things would have gone very differently if they'd attacked Russia and not given the US Government the excuse they wanted to join the war (they weren't stupid and knew if Britain fell they'd end up facing the entire world on their own at some point). US military forces facing German forces for the first time were typically shredded into dogmeat by the vastly more experienced enemy.

Britain's role was absolutely pivotal, Britain led the military force that defeated Hitler, the invasion of Europe (and evacuation of Europe) relied on Britain as a staging post, France had fallen, Spain wisely stayed out of it, Italy's contribution was a farce, Germany ended up trashed. Germany also failed to invade the UK despite massive manpower and materiel advantage, after sweeping through France, Belgium, Poland, Holland etc. So much for the continental powers.

EDIT: And yes I am well aware Britain needed America's help. We were the only European power still fighting against a conquered Europe. And Russia's contribution was similarly massive, but the scuttlebutt is Russia only repelled Hitler because of the weather and the vastness of their territory, certainly not through military might or tactical nous. The Germans had been preparing for war for nearly a decade. Nobody else was.

EDIT 2: The US Navy only achieved parity with the Royal Navy via underhand tactics. Google that, it's quite interesting. Their goal in WW2 was to equal or exceed the Royal Navy. And they were our allies!

EDIT 3: And how much support did Europe give us during the Falklands? Only the USA stood by us, and to avoid a PR disaster they did that covertly.

[MyNameIsTerry]

That's fair, you did. But that was then. We can't even kick known terrorists out of our country now. The world has changed.

Britain has achieved many things in history but I don't plan on using that as a basis for decision on whether to leave the EU now. Some Scottish voters made the same argument about independence citing their military victories over England but I didn't see how that was relevant to their decision.

[CeeCeeCee]

I will be voting to stay in, 100%.

Not going to copy and paste any facts here as they are there for all to see but this poster says a lot I'd say.


In Europe poster.jpg

[MyNameIsTerry]

Corbyn is taking a bashing over all this. He's been firmly against being in the EU for a very long time. Sadly for him, despite all his bluster about doing things his way, the unions want to stay in and since Labour need the unions Corbyn's principles have gone out of the window only proving he's for sale like the rest of them. His idealist supporters won't let it infringe on their vision, I'm sure.

He's currently trying to avoid the issue by making it about the next government being the new "out" Tories. A silly argument when we all understand how voting works. It makes it seem like he believes we are fools but I guess it's the lack of space he has for an argument when he's just sold out on all those who voted for him. Welcome to real world, they're all as bad as each other in their different ways.

[Gotagetthroughthis]

I will be voting to stay in, 100%.

Not going to copy and paste any facts here as they are there for all to see but this poster says a lot I'd say.


In Europe poster.jpg

If you support the ideas of the likes of Obama, one of the worst Presidents in the history of the United States, who has caused half of the wars and problems going on the world right now. Or Jeremy Corbyn who is anti EU to the core and has been his entire life but now has become a puppet for the Labour party as its leader so has to pretend to be pro EU then you have been mislead.

Its not really about who supports which campaign anyway and I can see how most will jump the conclusion that the anti EU group in that picture are xenophobic. Which may be true with a couple of them but we have to look past that stuff and do whats best for Britain.

The EU is declining economically, it is on the verge of economic collapse, investors are pulling out of the EU as it is a sinking ship. Most in Britain don't realise this as it hasn't hit home yet, but it will, especially if we remain in the EU.

Voting remain is voting to give away all sovereignty, to become part of a United states of Europe with an EU army, with politicians that cannot be held to account. Some people may think it sounds good to be part of a block of countries but it is not for the benefit of the citizens, it is for the benefit for the elites, giving them more power and removing the democratic process that each nation uses to keep things in order. Centralization of power is not a good thing, it creates dictatorships.

Forget the open boarders and immigration which most people think is the only reason people are voting leave. That is an issue but there are many other reasons, some of which I have spoken off. Do not do be fooled, remaining in the EU is more dangerous than leaving. Lets get out of a failing system, a crumbling economy, still work as allies and friends with Europe but branch out to the commonwealth and the rest of the world who are thriving. Stay or go the EU is only going one way and that is down.

[Noivous]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ish-vote-leave

interesting stuff

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------

If you support the ideas of the likes of Obama, one of the worst Presidents in the history of the United States, who has caused half of the wars and problems going on the world right now. Or Jeremy Corbyn who is anti EU to the core and has been his entire life but now has become a puppet for the Labour party as its leader so has to pretend to be pro EU then you have been mislead.

Its not really about who supports which campaign anyway and I can see how most will jump the conclusion that the anti EU group in that picture are xenophobic. Which may be true with a couple of them but we have to look past that stuff and do whats best for Britain.

The EU is declining economically, it is on the verge of economic collapse, investors are pulling out of the EU as it is a sinking ship. Most in Britain don't realise this as it hasn't hit home yet, but it will, especially if we remain in the EU.

Voting remain is voting to give away all sovereignty, to become part of a United states of Europe with an EU army, with politicians that cannot be held to account. Some people may think it sounds good to be part of a block of countries but it is not for the benefit of the citizens, it is for the benefit for the elites, giving them more power and removing the democratic process that each nation uses to keep things in order. Centralization of power is not a good thing, it creates dictatorships.

Forget the open boarders and immigration which most people think is the only reason people are voting leave. That is an issue but there are many other reasons, some of which I have spoken off. Do not do be fooled, remaining in the EU is more dangerous than leaving. Lets get out of a failing system, a crumbling economy, still work as allies and friends with Europe but branch out to the commonwealth and the rest of the world who are thriving. Stay or go the EU is only going one way and that is down.

Obummer is an evil liar and a lightweight. I see it and live it every day.

"If you like your country, you can keep your country."

Go Trump!

[Gotagetthroughthis]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ish-vote-leave

interesting stuff

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------



Obummer is an evil liar and a lightweight. I see it and live it every day.

"If you like your country, you can keep your country."

Go Trump!

I agree on Obama. That is not what we are lead to believe here though. The media portray him as a great man. Most of what we see on the news is lies and propaganda but many believe it.

On the referendum, Britain have to take this chance and leave, we wont get another vote. The centralisation of power that the EU and the West want will not end well. Individual nations need to keep their own governments and democracy for the people of each nation as it keeps everyone safe and able to control their own destiny rather than all power going to the corrupt elite at the top so they can impose their evil self serving agendas. A vote to leave gives the citizens of this country some power back in their own hands.