the EU & the UK

[MyNameIsTerry]

I see Unna has launched a new campaign for a referendum on the deal. I think I recall the options we can vote for are to be...

1. Stay in the EU

AND

2. Stay in the EU

[MyNameIsTerry]

2 years on, lots of soundbites, lots of saying what it won't be without saying what it may be, the only reasonable response is the classic Month Python...

https://youtu.be/l1YmS_VDvMY

[GiantMogwai]

I love the fact that the main demographic that voted for it, being mainly the older bunch, won't be around to see the true consequences of their decision.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I love the fact that the main demographic that voted for it, being mainly the older bunch, won't be around to see the true consequences of their decision.

That's voting for you. The same happens every General Election to some extent. Besides, quite a lot of the main demographic will still be around in 10+ years, the media just like to consider older voters as so old they could go anytime. They seem to have this view the elderly are all hanging onto their last days which is just another form of bigotry really.

[GiantMogwai]

Similar and identical are similar words but they are not identical.

[pulisa]

I love the fact that the main demographic that voted for it, being mainly the older bunch, won't be around to see the true consequences of their decision.

Ah but should the "older bunch" be banned from voting as they are near death? Should there be an upper age limit on voting in general? What age would be considered as "non viable"?

[GiantMogwai]

Ah but should the "older bunch" be banned from voting as they are near death? Should there be an upper age limit on voting in general? What age would be considered as "non viable"?

Just an observation, and no to all your questions obviously. I'm not really young myself, I just find it quite frustrating that a yes/no vote on something as complex as Europe will result in nobody getting what they want out of it, that it was decided so marginally and that the demographic who steered the decision won't be there to live with the consequences. This issue of Brexit is more important than any election. There is little comparison. The promises made by the Brexiteers are fairly flim flam. It should have been decided by a more significant majority. The issues people voted on are quite real but lets see whether Brexit really achieves any of that or just leaves us in isolation. Will Brexit affect the older generations pensions. Probably not. Will it affect the employment market and the challenges for businesses - yes undoubtedly.

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

I think we should have spent longer trying to achieve change in Europe and gathered an alliance of like minded countries to reduce our isolation.

---------- Post added at 18:36 ---------- Previous post was at 18:30 ----------

I also think that Europe has at it's heart protection for minorities and people with disabilities and left on our own we will let this slip. A bit of money back and reduced immigration is not a vision for a better country and with things like Heathrow T5 going through this country simply proves it's short sightedness and lack of interest in a better country for the future.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Anything that affects the economy has a knock on effect. So, yes it will affect pensions and considering the potential impacts to the NHS, social services, etc the older generations could be facing that more than many of the younger ones. Working class pensioners, not the ones the media seem to only see that are minted. Pensioners are already affected by fuel poverty and have been for a long time.

It will never be what many want because voters are too split and so are political parties. Everyone is held to ransom by somebody else.

I think there is so little faith in the UK. Workers, minorities, the disabled, etc have all fought for change and the EU has added additional protection for them and additional mechanisms to fight for change but they still fought that within the UK. I disagree that it's the EU that has allowed them this, many EU countries have quite questionable records of their own.

The argument that regulations will be slashed and workers rights destroyed is based on very little, it's associated with the Tories...who we can kick out every 4 years. Say they remove lots of workers rights, will they also remove voting privileges to prevent them being booted out to make way for a Labour landslide? The media portray this side as if the government remains static.

Although there is the risk of drip feeding in change but at some point it gets too obvious and change will be fought for. This risk existed inside the EU too as the risk to the NHS slowly being privatised was going on with Labour too. And then there is the current push towards renationalisation, industries that were privatisated whilst within and regs removed regardless (Brown removing regulations over the energy sector was an awful move, from within the industry I saw how Ofgem were seen as a toothless joke after he did this).

There is plenty that is good about the EU but sadly a lot wrong too. A reformed EU would be best but it ain't going to happen as it's not what they want. Not sure what the people in each country want or whether they are even listened to.

Keep the pressure up so governments have to keep improving our rights. Whilst the more options the better we do have enough to keep fighting for change. Other than democracy really slipping into Russian mode I can't see this changing as the genie is well out of the bottle.

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

Ah but should the "older bunch" be banned from voting as they are near death? Should there be an upper age limit on voting in general? What age would be considered as "non viable"?

It's a slippery argument anyway. Will they also be removing the voting rights of the terminally ill?

An upper limit would be quite amusing when considering how many MP'S & Lords would be over it

Democracy comes with it's good & bad points. I think until Brexit we mostly accepted this but I'm less sure these days

[GiantMogwai]

The EU essentially gives us a constitution which we do not otherwise have. Constitutions are extremely important as they help entrench core rights in a way that is less susceptible to the seesaw of party politics.

Additionally some European countries have a stronger sense of individual rights than us such as the French. We benefit from this in our ability to persuade and achieve a vision for a better world. We have a lot to offer too but isolation will not suit us.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

My point regarding the vote is on such an important issue the majority should be larger. In some countries I believe this is the norm for effecting constitutional change, or at least it should be.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yes, there is normally a minimum %. Unfortunately Parliament obviously thought they would win and failed to put such clauses into effect out of nativity, arrogance, etc. The media blame Cameron for this but the reality is Parliament read it and didn't amend it therefore they are all culpable for that element of the failure.

I would agree on a % majority needed for any change, not just a massive one like this. However, even if it was 80/20 in today's climate of social media I expect much of the same complaining would be going on. It's our "new normal" that has surrounded other elections too.

Parliament & The Lords provide a fair bit of protection for us. Party politics has to achieve majorities beyond their own parties.

Constitutions can also be bad. Imagine if ROI didn't vote for abortion rights or gay marriage? Despite our lack of constitution we still achieved this and before them. Consider the Spanish attitude towards Catalonia with a constitution that prevents them even having a vote on their independence? Yet Scotland had a vote. Or the US with arms?

So it all comes down to the constitution itself...and the motives behind it.

We need to closely watch where we go from here.