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Thread: the EU & the UK

  1. #621
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    Trump putting a US Military base in Poland? Not a bad idea. The Poles like it.

    https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...s-military-ti/
    Well Poland have been resisting EU rules in recent times and they are totally against any shared immigration policies. They've gone more right wing recently too.

    The issue with the judges, although I'm not too aware of, sounds like how the US "elect" their which to me is always about loading the bases for the government of the time. Our system doesn't do this, the judiciary are separate. I've always found it strange how a democracy can allow politicians to have a hand in the judiciary.

    I wonder how the EU are going to ensure that $2 and any other money isn't coming out of EU funds when Poland are a net beneficiary? Just another reason for Brexit maybe?

    One of the reasons some people voted out of the EU. Poland. The biggest financial drain as a recipient. A big exporter of citizens. I certainly know of some Asian community members who have been complaining about Eastern European migration effects on increased crime & racism. Class of cultures with Poland being heavily white Christian I would imagine coupled with lower levels of immigration from other cultures? I would imagine that is a diverse as it was for us some years ago before we became largely more liberal?

    If the Poles become more aligned with the US I wonder how that would influence a Polexit? They are deep in over the money with the EU so have no escape. I wonder how US investment could alter that?

    The EU will be unhappy anyway since they want NATO out of Europe to make way for their own force. But oddly recently France and some key others are signing up for a non NATO military force that sits outside of the EU, and we are to be in there.

    Weird times.
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  2. #622
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    So the Tory conference sounds like its going to be fiery regards Brexit
    The May plan isnt universally loved
    The Johnson plan will likely be blocked by the CUP as you cant just wave a technical wizardy wand at the Border, tech not proven at all in any way
    The Corbyn/Labout 6 tests are great but would likely reject 50% of any compromises we get from the UK Government with the EU
    The Peoples Vote, though laudable as David Camerons original f$%k up of a referendum was purely binary would likely split the Nation
    #fedupwithalmostallpoliticians
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  3. #623
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    I'm with you on that #

    There's a guy in the papers who claims to be a British government agent who has time travelled.

    "Mr Taylor goes into detail about two trips to the future he says he made to the years 3000 and 8973."

    They should have asked him if Brexit was still going on
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  4. #624
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1MF0K9

    A Brexit Deal? Reuters seem to think so

    However, Parliament is going to be very tricky..... if you take the 15 Labour rebels who voted against the EEA amendment, and subtract from those the 3-4 hardline Hooey n co Brexiteers, there are extra votes for May... but probably not enough? It's also a huge political risk to take for the Labour MPs involved though they have consituencies that are Leave in high %s, Squeaky Bum time for Theresa May
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  5. #625
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Some thoughts on Brexit potentially as we reach the crunch time: -

    - Broadly speaking there are 3 possible outcomes - A soft Brexit, hard Brexit or no agreement.

    - Theresa May’s Chequers Agreement sits somewhere between a soft and hard Brexit and I think thats why its not universally loved by politicians from either side.

    - A “no agreement” outcome would cause issues with the movement of goods and people, its really not good for British manufacturing as far as I can tell

    - Using my crystal ball I wonder whether we might can an extension of the March deadline giving both sides further time to strike a deal.

    - If a hard Brexit is the outcome and Sterling falls, this could be positive for UK shares, as we saw with the referendum result in June 2016 but its also not necessarily a good outcome for the countries manufacturing

    - The UK stock market looks relatively cheap against other developed markets which suggests a lot of bad news is already “priced in” so Pension funds should be in a healthy state
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  6. #626
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Even with a no deal, which for some is their vision of a hard Brexit, there has to be a fall back position just as the EU want for NI. There are issues such as agreement for planes to fly over EU & UK airspace as well as land at their airports, UK drivers licences to be valid in EU countries and vice versa. WTO schedules have to be agreed.

    I've seen loads of this "our paperwork won't be good enough in EU countries" stuff peddled by biased media. It's funny how they seem to think the UK wouldn't reject EU paperwork.

    I really can't see the EU telling UK companies all their products have to pass their standards testing processes again. The EU would do the same to enshrine things as we are to allow things to continue until there are divergence issues. Divergence can then be subject to standards procedures as any new product would be.

    So, aside from those working on deals there must be a minimum standards team at both sides, UK & EU, who are working on allowing such things to continue? It's not like the EU covers the whole world and we are leaving the planet despite what certain leanings of the media would have us believe...

    This means there should be more than 3 outcomes I think. Hard Brexit can be more than one and so can soft Brexit. But nothing at all has to have certain minimums just to be able to do what any country does with another and some of these standards are going to be governed outside of the EU e.g. the WTO.
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  7. #627
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    I don't mind extensions to thrash out the details e.g. drugs licencing, air traffic control, cross border intelligence & policing, etc but I would agree the actual framework of the overall agreement needs to go in place now.

    We are moving closer to a new GE and if Labour got in it might throw everything up in the air. Whilst that's not necessarily all that bad the constant delays will only keep us in limbo as the next GE looms forward. The divisions are solid, anyone who was going to move probably has.

    I see Cable is pushing the anti Brexit line for his party again. He will fade into obscurity even further. He may be happy the age demographic will change (but then so will the numbers in the >40's too, it's not like this snapshot is something unique) but he won't beat Corbyn on the youth vote anyway. They won't vote for Corbyn Light when they have Corbyn Full Fat!

    In a GE or two both leaders of the main party will be getting too old to be PM anyway. What would an all-change on the front benches do to it all? And Cable is getting there himself, albeit he is an irrelevance.
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  8. #628
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    The issue of immigration is very pertinent in Europe and probably led to the Brext vote. In the 20th century the EU was founded on the premise that the European countries were stronger together, could overcome cultural disparities. Its possible that the project is now about to fall apart after the UK leaves as within the EU there are so many deep divides over the success of some countries economically and not others who are almost you would say in crisis.

    The immigration from the middle east & Africa has caused bitter debates regards issues of tolerance and identity and whether the EU can be upto providing sanctuary for all these people.
    Although it is broadly accepted that immigrants should make attempts to assimilate to their host country’s culture, how far this assimilation should go is a contentious subject. Some people expect them to learn the language, tis is normally only one or two in a family that do so. Some Europeans and political groups argue that new arrivals should cast off their previous cultural identities entirely, right down to their traditional styles of dress and their taboos regarding food. These Europeans argue that immigrants arriving from a culture that is, say, deeply patriarchal and religious, and entering into a European liberal society, should adopt their host’s feminist and secular norms which often go against the grain of their long held beliefs. Is it really possible for a multi racial society to function without friction especially in the working classes.
    In contrast, pro-immigration Europeans contend that since Europe is already highly diverse, with a wide range of values and habits represented among it’s native peoples, it is unfair to expect immigrants to assimilate to some abstract collective identity that most Europeans themselves don’t even relate to. These Europeans argue that we shouldn’t expect Muslim immigrants to convert to Christianity when the majority of British people don’t attend church themselves. And they question why immigrants from the Punjab should have to forgo their traditional curries in favor of fish and chips, given that most native Brits are more likely to be found in a curry house on a Friday night than in a fish-and-chip shop.
    Ultimately, the issue of immigration and assimilation is far from clear-cut. Maybe the lesson for the twenty-first century is that this debate shouldn’t be positioned, as it often can be, as a moral struggle between “fascist” anti-immigrationists and pro-immigrationists promoting the “suicide” of European culture. Instead, immigration should be up for debate without the extreme positions taking centre stage as they often do. In the UK we have seen great benefits from immigration in some industries and some services, we have also seen ghettos created and seen uncomfortable outcomes in some cities of high immigration.
    I’ve just read answers for the 21st Century and I found the section on immigration interesting so thought I would reframe that books information here.
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  9. #629
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Where as I have always viewed that by an accident of birth Im very very lucky to have been born in a free society, that which is the UK.
    I consider aspects of the European project to be laudable though also elements of it stick in the craw, especially where the EU enforces a bit of an old boys club on trade and pushes back against economic growth in the likes of Africa.
    I think our culture has value however I don't feel that it is at risk due to Multi-Culturalism. In fact if we go back far enough we are, all over the world, the result of immigration across the globe and the results of early trade and movement and war between all the different countries of the world.
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  10. #630
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzaninedoor View Post
    Where as I have always viewed that by an accident of birth Im very very lucky to have been born in a free society, that which is the UK.
    I consider aspects of the European project to be laudable though also elements of it stick in the craw, especially where the EU enforces a bit of an old boys club on trade and pushes back against economic growth in the likes of Africa.
    I think our culture has value however I don't feel that it is at risk due to Multi-Culturalism. In fact if we go back far enough we are, all over the world, the result of immigration across the globe and the results of early trade and movement and war between all the different countries of the world.
    Yes, I see myself as lucky to born here. I can't see how anyone can think differently once you've seen any news about much of the rest of world?

    The result of immigration through history is one people often seem to quote but I think they forget that those times were a lot less pleasant than now. When people say the UK is the result of various changes in population they forget that was at the tip of a sword. And whilst other peoples came here they were subjected to much greater levels of bigotry & violence than they ever would now. Anyone who doubts that can look back into more recent history (e.g. "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs" signs) let alone going back into times when nations were constantly beating the poo out of each other at sea or on land.

    Concerned about illegal immigrants now? Call the Border Force or police and watch legal process take over. Concerned about illegal immigrants in 1400, local land owners get some spears and things go down hill from there.

    ---------- Post added at 02:23 ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pain View Post
    Once we get into discussing the moral morass of immigration, there’s one specific aspect which is almost never challenged when the vocal pro-multiculturalists are making their forceful assertion that cultural diversity is better and therefore highly desirable; and that is the snide assumption that everyone else’s culture is in some way superior to our own.
    I wonder how that argument works in far less tolerant countries? Should I emigrate to Saudi Arabia do I get their inclusiveness?

    It's a strange argument because we end up with another form of supremacism out of it that we hold ourselves to higher standards than other countries. And how many of those arguing this would be looking down their noses at countries that are more religious calling them backward states?

    We assume we are correct. That our views of liberalisation are how the world must go. I wonder how that is viewed by the countries we mock in the process? Do they want to be more like us or do they view us as a bunch of wierdos?

    And how many left wing multi culturists share the same anti Semitism of the far right? They give Islam a free pass but have a massive problem with Israel (of which there is plenty of reason to have) but stray into racist tropes?

    To me you shouldn't be expected to give up who you are because of where you go to but you decided to go there so you have to adjust to that society and not expect it to change just for you. If you come here it makes lots of sense to learn the language just as it does if I decide to emigrate to France or even Saudi Arabia. We are lucky in that English is the international business language so we get a head start of many people and I wonder at how hard it must be to come here from a non English speaking nation. But you do have to adhere to the laws of the land, here that means ours and in Saudi that means theirs whether you think they are abhorrent or not? You can choose to abstain from elements of that culture that you disagree with but you can't decide the laws don't apply to you and you will need to keep your mouth shut as you need to respect the cultures of others. That means religious people coming here, and those already here, need to accept say LGBT+ rights (or keep their thoughts in their head outside of their own circles) and we would have to do the same if we moved to their countries in not walking around in my tiny denim shorts with an "I love penis" t shirt on.

    But you won't ever get 100% acceptance or things right. That would require us progressing beyond being human beings! The film Demolition Man springs to mind ("you can't take people's rights to be a55holes away")

    ---------- Post added at 02:31 ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzaninedoor View Post
    Ultimately, the issue of immigration and assimilation is far from clear-cut. Maybe the lesson for the twenty-first century is that this debate shouldn’t be positioned, as it often can be, as a moral struggle between “fascist” anti-immigrationists and pro-immigrationists promoting the “suicide” of European culture. Instead, immigration should be up for debate without the extreme positions taking centre stage as they often do. In the UK we have seen great benefits from immigration in some industries and some services, we have also seen ghettos created and seen uncomfortable outcomes in some cities of high immigration.
    Bat shit crazy ends of the political shoehorn. The internet has removed the soapbox & sandwich boards of loonies and given them a keyboard instead.

    I guess we have to listen to all views but for the most part those to either ends of the irrational spectrum aren't a reflection of anything but a minority view. If that was untrue then we would have to ask why the far left & right political parties are dead in the water. Perhaps a bit simplistic but if the groundswell was there, why would Labour & Tory hang on to everyone when they have people like UKIP (and the various far left parties) around?

    Some industries have also been killed off by globalism. Some industries may now have to shift back to previous times (fruit pickers, for instance) and away from paying the peanuts they have become accustomed too.

    And all through it the fat cats make a killing while we argue over the table scraps. Ooh, where's my hammer & sickle emoji?! But you get the point, the working classes get jobs and be grateful while people like the EU have created huge wealth for their big business mates? And yet we see so many arguing the EU do it all for our rights? But would they have done any of it if it meant big business gained nothing? Was it really about peace and "working together" or just cash? When did it change?

    Immigration may have not been such a problem if the EU had taken a slower approach to assimilation of countries with vastly different economies? And why the hell let Greece in when they even failed EU entrance testing?

    But we have much the same in the UK I suppose? English people complaining about subsiding Scotland, Wales & NI. Londoners complaining about subsiding the North of England. Others moaning about it all being about London and sod the rest of us. The Scots & Welsh wanting more power away from Westminster. I wonder if we will end up with regional assemblies?
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