the EU & the UK

[mezzaninedoor]

I get the feeling that Theresa May thinks that shes the hero of the day, either if she delivers Brexit with her deal or some version thereof or through No Deal. Shes running down the clock and refusing to countenance delaying the end date and therefore making a No Deal more likely than ever.

I don't think History will treat her very favourably if she takes Great Britain out of the EU on No Deal but we all have subjective views on what we think will happen, surrounded by economists statistics which only the Remoaners seem to have any trust in.

I accepted the outcome of the referendum but I want a Deal. I want the UK to exit the EU with a Deal that means we don't go over a cliff edge economically.

Last night I was subject to a barrage of abuse on facebook from a fellow family member who is an ex Soldier. I said that I respected his service but the fact that he was a soldier didnt mean he was right about everything. He kept telling me that I shouldn't interact with himbecause i wasn't going to change his mind, fair enough, then he would comment on my facebook page and tell me im a f£$king lefty bedwetter aith my freedom and democracy that he fought for and that I was a traitor for not believing in the UK surviving a No Deal etc etc etc and it went on and on. It felt, and I feel horrible saying this, it felt like he had been brainwashed.

Whos to blame? Well I feel it is Cameron who was running scared of UKIP and so sought to answer the question once and for all with a referendum probably buoyed by the fact that the Scottish referendum went his way. However I've always felt that Governments should Govern and that the question should have continued as a manifesto promise from parties and be voted on, on that basis

[MyNameIsTerry]

Tony, I would prefer a deal over none. I don't want us to be trapped in some deal that we don't see much benefit from but trade is important so deals are just how we should be working with any country or trade group. We can survive a No Deal but it won't be as good as having a beneficial trade deal and we would be better remaining connected to various standards groups e.g. medical, security, etc.

I'm not sure what being a soldier has to do with much. I guess it's about those who feel they have done their time for the nation? I can understand that but otherwise it doesn't necessarily make you worldly or wise. My ex services mates spent most of their time doing what squaddies do off base.

I think we all have our opinions but this is such a complex issue it's hard to know who is right and wrong. There is also a lot of BS getting peddled. Perhaps it's more that it's mixed? Even now if I had to vote I couldn't say I understood all the issues and there we often lack an unbiased fact checker telling us who is right or wrong.

I blame Cameron for running. I don't blame him for calling it because parties knew it was going to come to a head and previous governments only tried to ignore it or even win votes off the back of anti EU sentiment to then not honour manifesto pledges. A mark of a real PM, to me, would have been to follow through and I don't believe his position was untenable. I do blame them ALL for presenting such a weak Bill and not spending the time to ensure it wasn't open to endless speculation (Was it even legal nonsense) and later legal challenges that have only sought to line the pockets of the lawyers who are laughing the hardest about it all.

If they had done it better I believe we would have less of the unpleasantness. Opinions became galvanised as both sides took grey issues and got into a war over it.

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Pain,

Yes, De Gaulle. The man who fled his own country leaving it to it's fate to hide under our wing to then repay us by blocking us.

Wilson would get ripped a new one with that these days when we already have the pro EU argument involving being we will become a US slave state. Funny really, I thought we already were their poodle when Blair was kissing Bush's bottom over Iraq? Obama was only interested in us when he needed our military or to keep an ear/eye on the EU (when he wasn't bugging their phones ) and as soon as we voted out he told Germany they were his best mates.

There is truth in how people were unhappy with the way things are and how that is perhaps more so about domestic policy. However, it can't only be blamed on a lack on investment in improving our services when we keep bombarding overwhelmed services with immigration for the sake of it. More doctors, great. More car washers, not so great.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Imagine a PM coalition with Arlene?!!! Surely we are far too liberal for her liking with our modern things like gay marriage?

The DUP are pretty scared of Corbyn. They know his past sympathies and they won't get anywhere with him. Whether they want Brexit, it's perhaps more about cutting ROI off further than the rest although I'm sure they will be happy to take the most from our cash of any of the members of the Union.

Aren't our private elite busy carving up the poorer areas of the world?

Yes, I think this has been the most important vote I've had. Elections are a bit meh as my attitude for a long time has been vote for the least worst of a bad bunch. At least this meant a real say on change as opposed to a perception of change that never happens as the next party in descend into the usual sleaze.

[Hollow]

Quick comment on wealth and investment: Britain has colossal private wealth – six trillion quid of it! And yet we keep pandering to other countries to invest here. Why is it that when many of the top echelon of Britain’s wealth-owners won’t put a metaphorical brass farthing into home-grown industry, research and development, or genuinely needed infrastructure? Why is the nation forever being put up for ransom to other countries’ financial/political interests for the glittering lure of ‘inward’ investment?

Crackers, anyone?[COLOR="blue"]

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[/FONT]

Most of that wealth is not real, it's money created out of nothing so basically just numbers in a computer. We live under a financial system based on Usury or Compound interest which means wealth will always end up in the hands of a few Oligarchs, the rest of us will drown in debt. These wealth owners have no loyalty to this country because they're just parasites. Great Britain is now very close to becoming a third world country.

Hungry children 'eating from school bins' in Morecambe

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-46827360

The head teacher said it was "heartbreaking" and added that parents had been "arriving at school literally bursting into tears telling me they have no means of feeding their children".

[MyNameIsTerry]

When was the world any different.

Sadly, one story doesn't mean we are as poor as those in 3rd world countries. All our Xboxes say otherwise and we have many more chances. The poor existed long before modern politics.

My mother worked in schools for a long time and saw cases where children weren't being fed. They were feeding them as well as safeguarding brought into to investigate what was going wrong and protect children. Those kids were trying to get food anyway they could too.

We need to know more behind why. UC delays are an obvious possibility but food bank increases predate this. Rising rents with landlords and less social housing are going to be in there.

It's very sad but we can choose to help whereas 3rd countries have less resources to even try. The question is whether this government is doing enough and that's likely to be a big no.

I wonder how this compares to past decades where local industries went to the wall leaving families on the bread line? Is it truly worse now or is it another case of more reporting of issues that in the past were just tolerated, if that's the right word?

[mezzaninedoor]

The DUP are able to state their position because they dont really deal in 'Grey' like many of us do, lots of us struggle to come to positions on subjects that have to consider very deep emotion & ethical strands to. The DUP are very black & white.

Love of Money is the root of evil. People can have money and be very altruistic with it, use that wealth for good or at least try to. Money is illusory now with us trading in electronic funds 80% of the time now.

Regards Brexit, we are just not on the same page. I find the idea of a No Deal a complete failure of Government and I'm afraid Im suspicious of MPs that favour a No Deal. Jacob Rees Moggs Dad wrote a book about making money out of disasterrous circumstances and Jacob will make plenty of money out of a No Deal.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Well, she's formidable. She does have the luxury of having an opposite number and never the twain shall meet. I doubt she would want a Sinn Fein fanboy in power over here.

Cameron did say all that and despite all the later media articles about how it was a tick box simply for the EU entity alone, we knew what it meant. A lot of it was about FOM and you can't get out of that without getting our of the SM.

We can't talk No Deal off the table and it's very simple why that is. It forces us into a corner, all options should remain. The EU works on the basis of all options remain until the decision is made so why don't we? Remove No Deal and you are left with only May's deal or was that Corbyn's plan to vote it through by stealth

I think we can rightly be suspicious MP...full stop. Very true, characters like the Mogg may do well out of No Deal but characters like Heseltine, The Kinnocks, and many others continue to do very well out of what we have now. I wonder what a deal would mean for the private coffers of some of the others? If G4S are manning the hard border then you know Mrs May will be getting some new leather trousers

[Hollow]

I fear that people who voted for Brexit might have shot themselves in the foot even though they did with the right intentions. Leaving the EU won't stop mass immigration but instead will accelerate it from Commonwealth countries. For example, post-Brexit, it will be much easier for Indians to get work visas so a large number of them will come here and further destroy the IT industry. Also, the EU has very strict laws about data protection and privacy, they will be eroded by Globalist whores like Theresa May once we leave. It's a classic case of out of the frying fan and into the fire. I don't buy into the "taking back control" nonsense because we'll still be ruled by the same people behind the curtain.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yep, we still get ruled by politicians. But you can't vote for the ones ruling the EU. The rich people behind all governments have been their since man invented anything worth having and unless you were planning on a big asteroid you won't remove corruption and self interest. You might as well try to remove blood or oxygen.

But what people wanted was to be able to put in or kick out those who are elected to govern. With the EU it is far too large so it means you vote in people who vote in who they want. You can only try to change the shape of the political groupings. One problem with this is you can make the UK a socialist utopia but what's the use of that if most of the EU is right wing?

It's about getting something, it has been interpreted as getting perfection. We live in binary times. The same people will vote in any government expecting they follow through on their manifesto pledges yet they won't get it. Parliament isn't set up to achieve that, only absolute rule achieves that...if you are on the right side. Basic human traits will always be present. It's like tying to ban people being tw@ts.

There is an argument by the left that EU immigration policies have an air of racism about them. Lets remember that Europe is very white Christian. In reality it's about self serving, better for our people but not yours. That's the attitude of every country, ever. Some will say what is wrong with letting in more people from other nations outside the EU, not Europe as it's not that, because that levels the playing field for all. It will never be truly level as trade deals include visas these days but one retort from the left has been how there has been sneering about places like India when they bring us so many good people (we've been having their doctors and nurses for some decades now and their communities have added loads to our economy).

I don't mean to imply this in response to your comment, Hollow. It's a legitimate concern about the IT industry but do you think it will just mean less businesses run to India? My last industry was shifting loads to India and they brought Indian developers over when they needed them. We did the same with Germany. WE have a good tech industry, better than most of the EU countries, so it's worth retaining.

I wonder how fast Germany & co would ram those shutters down if we had FOM globally?

[mezzaninedoor]

I think theres a lot more grey in the world and I dont buy into the taking back control line fully. There are a lot of Rich people who will be a lot richer as a result of a No Deal Brexit and I count Rees Mogg & Bojo in that number.

I think there are flaws with the EU and maybe its selfish that I can see that a ruleset that deals with frictionless trade between 27 member nations is a positive thing of some intrinsic value.

Its no secret that I voted Remain but I was happy with us leaving the EU as a result of the referendum, what I'm not happy for is a completely unmanaged and damaging exit from the EU that has repercussions for years to come. I know i'll probably get shot down on that but thats just where I'm coming from. I feel a No Deal Brexit is a failure of Government.

I also feel uncomfortable with the amount of power that the DUP have, the vote of confidence absolutely underlined that.

I'm vaguely positive about one thing for the UK though, we've made much more progress with renewables here than we expected to, such that the Nuclear deals now feel completely inflated as costs to the country. I hope we can continue to expand that and become more self sufficient for energy, we have plenty of wind and tide being an Island nation.

Though I guess as the Human Race grows ever beyond 7 billion people fighting for less and less resources maybe you are right and human disasters are likely to be the norm in the future anyways.