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Thread: the EU & the UK

  1. #841
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Pain View Post
    Mez… I wrote out a reply, posted it, then lost it when I added an edit. Never mind

    The important part of my reply was my question to you: What do the UK’s young people get out of FOM? Is it worth the very high price we’re all having to pay.
    What % of them use it? I don't mean holidays. I suspect few.

    Which begs the question why they see it as so important? Surely the economic advantages are the main reason for unity? Regulatory compliance and political union and not forgetting equalisation of social standards. But no, it's FOM.

    I find that strange as it's a nice to have for the vast majority of the country who will never use it beyond a quicker queue when passing customs. I question whether they have been told it's important.
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  2. #842
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzaninedoor View Post
    Regarding Remainers moaning, I think its fair to say that there are some of us who are happy to debate the pro's & con's however there are people entrenched on both sides Leave & Remain who are just spouting rhetoric.

    There are lots of reasons I wanted to remain in the EU and none of them were regards losing my cleaner or cheap labour or etc..... I also accept that the EU isnt perfect but you cant change something from outside of it. The EU isn't just an uneven community of members it also bullies Africa to some degree and has ensured that Africa is outside the Tent trying to trade but I feel/felt that the EU was on balance a positive for the UK, across the UK though I accept that locally there are definite hotspots ( partly due to the failiure of the distribution of refugess & the like ) where people feel unhappy about the EU. I don't accept the sovereignty argument.
    This is why I mentioned you specifically because I was bringing up some views , which to me don't fit people like yourself who want better for everyone. I've found many of these vocal Remainers on politics forums show their argument is primarily about money and they let slip things like cleaners, not having more expensive cars, and lost profits for their businesses, etc and I question how they see themselves as fitting with many of the people struggling? Some of them, in other threads, talk about not touching the NHS anyway and have private health treatment. Maybe they are LibDems but they sound so Tory to me. Middle class. Other than their money it doesn't seem to many others touch them. They are annoyed by standing longer in a queue in an EU airport than they should be about domestic issues many of us face.

    I understand what you mean about being inside the tent. Initially I thought this and I had to weigh it up in my vote. In the end I went with change because there is only one way the EU will go and we are holding it back on that course but who knows in the future. We can't say for sure it will remain as democratic as it is and it doesn't sit right with me anyway that we have an Austrian far right so high up now who may try to influence it farther right.

    You mentioned sovereignty earlier. I agree, I think that one has been whipped up the media and the agendas of the out group of politicians over the years. But I do take issue with the EU Commission. It is elected, fair enough, but by people we put in power. But the EU is too large and some of these countries are veering into political groupings I know I don't want to aligned to. I question how much control we have if other countries are set on a different way. Some want federalisation and I'm against that. Some want to veer farther right and I'm against that. I suspect this will ebb back & forth but I do expect federalisation to take place or try to.

    I've seen an argument against this "taking back control" where the House of Lords has been cited as an unelected body. But I suspect a referendum to replace them would be much clearer. And I want all levels of government accountable and changed for the better. The argument this now makes us hostage to our own government is moot because the EU is only one element of change.

    Leaver = racist, xenophobe.

    Scottish Nationalist = patriot.



    The Scots dislike Westminster because the SNP have so little say in our voting due to the size of the main parties. Many of them don't like those main parties, some want independence and others might prefer SNP policies for other reasons. But don't they have a view their votes counts for naught because they are a minority in Parliament? That sounds just like the EP to me. We can vote in a MEP but unless you have a cross-nation grouping working together he/she might as well be an independent MP or small party. What power do they have to push things or steer them?

    That doesn't sound so different to the argument of many of us outside of London. They care about London, not so much the rest of us.

    We have an example right now in the changes to online digital content rights. The Tories get a lot of flack over trying to introduce internet controls, and I'm for & against when it comes to the internet depending on issues & intent, but the media coverage is slight when it comes to the potentially major change the EU has voted through. We have campaigns to stop this legislation, including big names like Berners-Lee, but it goes through anyway...without any of us even being asked. The legislation is so unclear we don't know how much it will impact us because it's not just about copyright tightening but may cause we plebs to get taxed over planting a picture off another site, or even a snippet from an article, which affects even me on this forum.

    What brought this legislation to us? A small working group of MEP's, obviously due to pressure from the media companies. The EP rejected an area but it came back and went through. Now we wait to hear how it will develop.

    Of course, the legislation dumps the need for control, and potentially levy taxes on us, onto the search companies. That's nice. The campaigners against this say there isn't even a technical solution to achieve it at the current time.
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    For free Mindfulness resources, please see this thread I have created to compile many sources together http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168689

  3. #843
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    There are always pros...





    Sorry, I was watching Spaceballs earlier and couldn't help myself





    Imagine Brooks releasing much of his stuff these days? The anti Semitism rants would be raging given all the Jewish stereotyping. Blazing Saddles would have probably started a war off in the US and calls for canning it.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    For free Mindfulness resources, please see this thread I have created to compile many sources together http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168689

  4. #844
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzaninedoor View Post
    one of the issues with Churchill was that he wasnt very accomplished in peacetime and some of his peacetime policies were never going to command the peoples support.
    Churchill was one of the biggest war criminals to ever roam the earth. He was the Tony Blair of his time, a satanic traitor who served foreign interests. Just like Fallujah, the massacre of Dresden will never be forgotten.


  5. #845
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow View Post
    Churchill was one of the biggest war criminals to ever roam the earth. He was the Tony Blair of his time, a satanic traitor who served foreign interests. Just like Fallujah, the massacre of Dresden will never be forgotten.

    A bit like the nightly massacres we had from the fuhrer then eh?

    Stopping Hitler perhaps a bit more important than anything Zionist to most in the UK at the time. It paved the way to many people having the freedom to post their beliefs on the internet today
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  6. #846
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Ah, yes, Churchill. He was what my ‘lost’ reply mostly covered.

    Winston Churchill was inconsistent and had a mixed bag of policies, not always knowing or appreciating what the implications of some of them would be (hence his often deservedly rough ride in politics). His most disgraceful blundering has to be The Dardanelles campaign. His most worthy course of action has to be standing against the appeasement of Hitler in the face of Parliament telling him to shut up. A man full of contradictions, Hollow!

    A certain Mr Johnson undoubtedly sees himself in Churchillian persona. But unlike Mr Churchill, Boris-the-berk, alas, has done virtually nothing worthy of approbation.

    Terry… a quick note on ‘sovereignty’ – “You mentioned sovereignty earlier….” The UK isn’t a ‘sovereignty’ in the true meaning – being ruled by a monarch – although it is seen as such because our monarch is our Head of State. I think our last monarch to make political decisions was ‘Mad’ George III. So, accepting there has to be some titular Head of State (Terry, don’t make that joke!!!), what would we rather have: an unappointed/unelected representative who has no direct power to interfere with politics, or an appointed/elected representative who would almost certainly have a political/civil service background and wish to continue playing his/her part in politics? Crikey, we could end up with someone like Tony Blair. Or even worse, Tony Blair! Either way though, I don’t see why we’ve got to have that representative’s expensive extended family as part of the arrangement.


    And on to Verhofstadt. No, the Brexiteers Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg won’t end up losing their heads on the guillotine as did the French Revolutionaries Bissot, Danton and Robespierre, for several reasons. i) We’re not in France or ruled by the French, ii) we don’t have a death penalty [but would use the noose if we did] iii) we don’t resort to doing-away with those folks who might irritate us (no matter how tempting the idea).

    Terry, again… “Stopping Hitler perhaps a bit more important than anything Zionist to most in the UK at the time. It paved the way to many people having the freedom to post their beliefs on the internet today” I agree – every loony and his dog should be allowed internet freedom of speech. Care in the virtual community? Pain has now left the building

  7. #847
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    Re: the EU & the U

    Churchill is a symbol of appeasement...





    Appoint me Mr President. My first action shall be to replace Knighthoods with Shitehoods. I expect the honours ceremony to take a lot longer than now as it will be a celebration of a greater volume of worthy candidates. Many will be simple transfers from the old award. Mr Beckham will finally get one
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    For free Mindfulness resources, please see this thread I have created to compile many sources together http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168689

  8. #848
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsTerry View Post
    A bit like the nightly massacres we had from the fuhrer then eh?

    Stopping Hitler perhaps a bit more important than anything Zionist to most in the UK at the time. It paved the way to many people having the freedom to post their beliefs on the internet today
    More like fireworks compared to the bombing of Dresden which was purely done to exterminate the civilian population. Hitler didn't start the indiscriminate bombings - Churchill did.

    Not sure which freedom you're talking about because people are being arrested for thought crimes in police state Britain.


  9. #849
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    Re: the EU & the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow View Post
    More like fireworks compared to the bombing of Dresden which was purely done to exterminate the civilian population. Hitler didn't start the indiscriminate bombings - Churchill did.

    Not sure which freedom you're talking about because people are being arrested for thought crimes in police state Britain.

    Fireworks? You might not have said that if you endured it.

    Yep, Hitler. Didn't do much did he? I'm not sure what the Jews, and other minority groups, did to force him into a plan of extermination. Churchill was a war criminal but Hitler just gave us fireworks by comparison?

    Yes, your police state. I'm still awaiting your evidence on that. So, far you have shown me a rare case years ago of 1 man shot by the police. If that's a police state, they have certainly become very liberal since the good old days. It hardly compares to what the likes of China get up to.

    Do you not find it ironic that you are complaining about freedom in our police state whilst making your claims? Has your door been kicked in yet? Have you be taken to an unknown detention centre never to be seen again? The government are trying to introduce internet controls, why not just tell us it is so and start arresting anyone who doesn't follow their demands?

    What thought crimes? When you put it into speech or writing it is no longer a thought crime is it? Whilst I would agree there are concerns about the extend to which activism is pushing certain things we still have many freedoms. Feel free to think what you wish, if my intrusive thoughts, and my verbalisation of them, including violent themes to the extremes of torture & murder I find it strange I haven't been arrested. OCDers would be in prisons for their thinking, but we are not and we won't be. But we keep balance between what is offensive and what it overemotional responses. By making spurious claims, the latter will suffer and sides become entrenched further.

    Large variations in the claimed death toll have fuelled the controversy. In March 1945, the German government ordered its press to publish a falsified casualty figure of 200,000 for the Dresden raids, and death toll estimates as high as 500,000 have been given. The city authorities at the time estimated up to 25,000 victims, a figure that subsequent investigations supported, including a 2010 study commissioned by the city council.

    AND

    Falsification of evidence[edit]
    The bombing of Dresden has been used by Holocaust deniers and pro-Nazi polemicists—most notably by the British writer David Irving in his book The Destruction of Dresden—in an attempt to establish a moral equivalence between the war crimes committed by the Nazi government and the killing of German civilians by Allied bombing raids. As such, "grossly inflated" casualty figures have been promulgated over the years, many based on a figure of over 200,000 deaths quoted in a forged version of the casualty report, Tagesbefehl No. 47, that originated with Hitler's Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.


    So, current Germany don't agree with that high figure or wartime propaganda as we should refer to it. There is also a notable name there, David Irving, a well known holocaust denier.
    Last edited by MyNameIsTerry; 14-02-19 at 03:44.
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    For free Mindfulness resources, please see this thread I have created to compile many sources together http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168689

  10. #850
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    Re: the EU & the U

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsTerry View Post
    Churchill is a symbol of appeasement...





    Appoint me Mr President. My first action shall be to replace Knighthoods with Shitehoods. I expect the honours ceremony to take a lot longer than now as it will be a celebration of a greater volume of worthy candidates. Many will be simple transfers from the old award. Mr Beckham will finally get one
    The Danes have their own doll!

    https://www.politico.eu/article/dutc...brexit-muppet/

    Foreign Minister Stef Blok tweeted a photograph of himself looking bemused — which likely sums up the EU's response to Brexit — behind a muppet wearing a Brexit T-shirt lying on his desk, warning Dutch businesses to make sure "Brexit doesn’t stand, or lie, in your way."

    No bitterness there then with that little barb He looks like he's trying to karate chop it!

    Maybe the Remain In campaign can adopt one of their own?



    Last edited by MyNameIsTerry; 14-02-19 at 15:55.
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    For free Mindfulness resources, please see this thread I have created to compile many sources together http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168689

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