Today’s headlines .........

[pulisa]

I saw this interview on Sky News today. I think the Tavistock Clinic is very suspect in its ethics.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I saw this interview on Sky News today. I think the Tavistock Clinic is very suspect in its ethics.

When I saw the lower ages I thought the same. However, we do have some parents these days who push gender issues onto very small children and I would hope the clinic are only perfoming mental health support at the age as they can't do much until they are allowed to use hormones. It will be interesting if they have disproportionate rates of patients.

It was sad to see the LGBT+ community (some of them obviously) shunning the other person mentioned in this. With this new service set up perhaps they will be able to engage with Pride and raise awareness.

Then there will be those who will use this situation to push the usual agendas whether they are anti trans or the extreme end of trans activism who can be as batshit as any fringe.

[pulisa]

the other day I read an article which said that some young people were wanting to change gender to be "more interesting" to others...How appalling and shocking is that?!!

The Tavistock has always been a bit controversial but let us hope they don't take advantage of very young people who are confused and distressed by all the transgender misinformation. I'm sure some clinics will though.

[mezzaninedoor]

I have to say that I find the whole area of gender a very difficult topic as I want to have empathy for anyone struggling with gender questioning or any difficulties with sexuality as well. One can only think that the information thats out there is 100 times better than what it was 50 years ago however its now wrapped up in gender politics. I was shocked that some Gay & Lesbians have difficulties with Trans people where as you would think through there own expereinces they would have more empathy.

I don't have any family members who have been through these things, just friends and every single friends experiences have been different. They have been a different experience of the NHS etc , they have been at different ages, they have been following different relationships along the way.

So I don't have much to offer apart from I would hope support would and should be there for anyone who is navigating these things at whatever age.

[AntsyVee]

I was shocked that some Gay & Lesbians have difficulties with Trans people where as you would think through there own expereinces they would have more empathy.

I am also shocked by this. I go to many LGBTQ+ events in my area as I have family members in the community, and I couldn't understand this either. We are all taught that the concept of gender is between one's ears, not one's legs, so why so many trans individuals are not accepted within the LGBTQ+ community is beyond me. For most people, gender is set in one's life between the ages of 1-5 years old, but I don't see why for some it can't fluctuate throughout their lifetime. Isn't that what gender fluidity is all about? Who cares if they fluctuate as long as they are happy?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yes, it does seem odd but then the LGBT+ community has always had it's own internal bigotries. From others I have heard how bisexual members are scorned by both sides. This is an old attitude though from the days when men married but still engaged in their true sexuality and some in the LGBT+ community held views there was no such thing as bisexuality. But this attitude is around now too which seems bizarre in younger generations when the same community are embracing all sorts of additional sexualities and genders. This suggests there are more problems likely with those newer categories to me.

Under the rainbow flag you have fringe groups going to the lengths of hate campaigns and even promoting violence towards each other. Even at Pride events this is happening where activists are promoting their beliefs of intolerance, which is frankly beyond belief as it's the opposite of the Pride message surely?

Feminism is tied up in this when it comes to trans in most I see. I'm sure there will be plenty outside of this too as I would believe this is confined to women/lesbian or bi women. A debate has been sparked over whether a man or woman is expected to have a sexual interest in someone trans who has transitioned into their preferred sexuality. On the fringes of this you trans activists who believe it's transphobic if you won't sleep with someone who used to be a man/woman or if they self identify (and still have their original genitals) you should still sleep with them or you are transphobic. That's just bizarre to me, and hard on those transitioning, but it reeks of shutting people down through the same methods you might see if a person registers a sexual preference for race. It's unpleasant that you are expected to do as expected here and a throwback to earlier society.

It's a strange thing to behold when you have a movement trying to change external ignorance when they have groups inside who show the same ignorance to each other.

Vee, I suspect if the impact of fluidity was purely to the person we would see this confined to the usual ignorance but since it has an impact onto others it has opened some credible debates. Sadly, those debates can degenerate into unpleasantness. The common ones I see being argued are always over sport and toilets. I don't think there will ever be a true solution to this that doesn't come without potential for some rarer events such as the sex offender who takes advantage of self cert to stalk his prey and at some point there is bound to a Lance Armstrong moment with an athlete cheating just as they do with steroids (and lets face it, strength athletes risk major health problems later in life so would hormone therapy really put them off?)

I think it always come down to an old maxim. Every group has their bad apples. You would think people who suffer mental health problems would be non judgemental and compassionate but haven't we all come across very unpleasant sufferers too?

I don't really care, people are people to me. It's always better to listen and try to understand even if you agree to disagree.

[MyNameIsTerry]

the other day I read an article which said that some young people were wanting to change gender to be "more interesting" to others...How appalling and shocking is that?!!

The Tavistock has always been a bit controversial but let us hope they don't take advantage of very young people who are confused and distressed by all the transgender misinformation. I'm sure some clinics will though.

Yes, it is shocking but I guess it comes down to the pressure on young people to be cool? They know smoking will likely kill them but it's still cool to many.

But in the end the sheep move into their new cool group that grows to be it's own herd.

I think we can again thank lovely social media for some of this, and thank them for also helping others not feel alone too when information is supportive, as it drags up any loon from a soapbox (this might sound a bit ironic being on here ) and spurious nonsense gets around the internet. From speaking to some OCDers about sexual themes they are always falling into the Wordpress trap where someone presents themselves as credible when they are obviously not. Not being objective at the time they fall into the same Google trap as a HAer does.

[AntsyVee]

Feminism is tied up in this when it comes to trans in most I see. I'm sure there will be plenty outside of this too as I would believe this is confined to women/lesbian or bi women. A debate has been sparked over whether a man or woman is expected to have a sexual interest in someone trans who has transitioned into their preferred sexuality. On the fringes of this you trans activists who believe it's transphobic if you won't sleep with someone who used to be a man/woman or if they self identify (and still have their original genitals) you should still sleep with them or you are transphobic. That's just bizarre to me, and hard on those transitioning, but it reeks of shutting people down through the same methods you might see if a person registers a sexual preference for race. It's unpleasant that you are expected to do as expected here and a throwback to earlier society

Really? I haven't come across this at all. Almost everyone in the community that I know or have worked with all agree that sexual attraction is a personal thing...the parts don't equal automatic attraction. If that were the case, cisgender heterosexual men would be attracted to every female on earth, and vice versa.

Vee, I suspect if the impact of fluidity was purely to the person we would see this confined to the usual ignorance but since it has an impact onto others it has opened some credible debates. Sadly, those debates can degenerate into unpleasantness. The common ones I see being argued are always over sport and toilets. I don't think there will ever be a true solution to this that doesn't come without potential for some rarer events such as the sex offender who takes advantage of self cert to stalk his prey and at some point there is bound to a Lance Armstrong moment with an athlete cheating just as they do with steroids (and lets face it, strength athletes risk major health problems later in life so would hormone therapy really put them off?)

Yes, unfortunately, there are still some very ignorant people out there who think having a nonbinary gender identity or a non-heterosexual sexual orientation means the same thing as being a pedophile or a pervert. Those people will never understand about bathrooms and locker rooms.

As for sports, IMO, that's a case by case basis. Doctors in sports leagues should make those decisions based upon the treatments an individual has received. Who knows? Maybe in a few years there will be sports leagues or events just for trans individuals.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Vee, sadly so. If you don't come across it then maybe it's a UK thing but it's the LGBT+ community themselves complaining about it (mostly women). As you say it is a personal thing but some women have voiced concern over not being able to be attracted to trans women (full transition) and self cert trans women who haven't had surgery. They are being attacked on social media for this and labelled transphobic by some.

I think it will be the case that most agree with what you say and that it's fine if sexual preference means genitals are per birth (is obvious someone attracted to the same sex can involve preferences for physical characteristics).

There is also the issue for straight men & women. Are we bothered by trans? Personally I'm open on this with full transition but not so until then (not that I've been faced with the situation but I can't see it being appealing to me, whether that's right or wrong I'm not sure either) but I can understand it being a problem for other men.

But it's the LGBT+ community that seem at odds with each other and straight people don't seem to be being told they should sleep with someone. I gather it's because of the clubs and trans women being turned down in some cases and it's grown into a big debate.

Even at recent Pride events there have been problems with leaflets distributed about this. And the trans activists had their ridiculous "punch a TERF" stuff going on through social media.

I feel sorry for people caught up in the middle of all that

Forgetting about sex offenders, they will always latch onto ways to get at their victims, it seems fair for women to raise their concerns over toilets. But again some activists see this as transphobia and you just see people fighting online with each other rather than trying to work out what is best.

I agree on sport, it's very complicated. They have to assess what is fair so that trans women don't have an advantage (again it's always focussed on women isn't it and trans men seem to fly under the radar a bit? But on the other side how can a trans man equally compete if transition doesn't change gender enough?) and to be honest despite hormone levels the muscle I've seen on some makes you question it.

Maybe they will with trans sport if only to raise awareness. Some may see it discrimination though won't they? It seems very complicated and it must be hard being trans in sport especially if you love it and find yourself faced with choices that prevent you following the path you wanted for yourself.

Sometimes I look at sport and think how far behind it is. We still have separate leagues in sports like darts when gender gives no advantage. We've recently had women's motor racing. I guess they are trying to bust through the old boy network via highlighting women want to do it. Outside of that I've seen some pretty damn good women racing drivers!

[AntsyVee]

I’ve come across some older LGB community members having issues with trans identities and non binary gender identities, but not what you’re describing. I never have heard of the “punch a terf “ thing. When I next go to our local LGBT center, I’m gonna ask though. It seems that dissent within the community can only lead to not being taken seriously. United we stand...

Trans women will always be at a disadvantage because women in general are at a disadvantage. It’s a man’s world out there. I wish all cisgender men could live as a woman for just one month out of their whole lives...