Is browning your face racist?

[lebonvin]

We're getting a lotta media coverage here about Canadian PM Trudeau browning his face years ago at a school fancy dress party. Personally I think he's a jerk, using PR to pretend he's this liberall kinda guy with a social conscience, while doing backroom deals with big business. Nobody over here gives a shit about Canadian politics, Canadians don't have much to be proud about except that they aren't American which is kinda insulting really.

Anyways I still don't understand why browning your face for some party can be called racist. It's not coloured people calling him out but white politicians.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Charlie, it's interesting that you see it this way as a black American. The same would be said for some black Brits too, not all will agree with how today such things are jumped on to shout racist. Is it just a lazy way to attack a politcail opponent? Well, you can guarantee many don't care about what they are saying they are opposing and just see a way to attack.

From what I understand you the more sensible arguments seem to be whether it is to demean black people? Some who "black up" do in that way black people were portrayed in old media where they were dehumanised or laughed at. Beyond that it seems to be more about it just being insensitive in that black people are still facing lots if racism so you should just stay away from the issue so as not to offend.

There are also those who make false claims or see offence in things that may not be there. Cry racist on Twitter and mud sticks. So, people are wary. Even if you dressed up to support a black person it is seen as racist. For instance, one white guy in London went to a fancy dress party as Samuel L Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction. He was branded a racist, after one young black lady took offence on the tube he was on, but he didn't understand as he said he was going as character he liked in a film.

It's like how white actors can no longer play black roles (not considering any relevant points about black actors historically not being represented enough or not getting the roles they could/should). And why you can't do an oriental accent anymore or a Pakistani one, because there is a history of mocking them for it in the past.

Then there is the cultural appropriation argument I guess where views seem to range in the same way and you end up in a world of just not going there "just in case" someone gets upset. Social media will be making it far worse too as that place is full of people who take offence any anything for the sake of it.

I don't know how it goes in the US but that's what we tend to see being argued over here. Given the US has far greater concerns with racism and how it can ignite situations how would this play in your country?

I don't buy Trudeau being naïve in 2001. He's hardly the man next door and this was being seen as a problem before then. But given it surfacing now I guess it might reveal a sneak snake raking it up just to discredit him

Anyway that's just what I understand from reading about how people see it here when cases like this come up, those more affected by these issues are going to understand it better such as yourself so I don't mean any of this to come across as trying to tell anyone's grandmother how to suck eggs. I hope that's all ok.

[WiredIncorrectly]

It's only racist if the intention of the person browning their face is doing so to be racist. Otherwise it's not.

I didn't know you was black lebonvin. I'm white, with a mixed raced brother, cousins, and Jamaican family. I've seen racism and it's nasty. It shouldn't exist, but it does and it's often perpetuated. The media pick up on something and cause a stir which just adds flames to the fire. I think it's done on purpose. Racism is just another way to oppress the black people - at least in the US. The UK has a racism problem and it's existed since black people started arriving in the UK. I'm not sure if that was inspired by the US in any way. There's a film called "This is England" that depicts racism in the UK in the early days. It's a pretty realistic representation from those times.

The propaganda from the past is still living today. I've met many racist people and I observe their reasoning ... it's always nonsensical. The UK has a problem with labeling all Muslims as terrorists and attempting to oppress the Muslims. But, it creates tension between communities which always leads to violence.

Rarely do I see the US or UK condemned for their responsibility in slavery and racism.

On a similar note. I've got dreadlocks (natural dreads, no salon or products, just some very good dread soap). Some people ask me about cultural appreciation. What they really mean is "You're not black, how come you have dreads?". It's a futile attempt to educate them on the origins of dreadlocks. I generally respond with "Don't comb your hair and it will naturally lock ... regardless of race. It's the natural way all hair grows". Argument dead. People don't realize dreadlocks were around long before Rastafarianism. Rastafarianism as a religion is only 80 years old. The fact I know all this means I appreciate the cultures that wore dreads because I've took the time to study them

[MyNameIsTerry]

Just tell them they're viking locks, James

It's like anything else in that you get the fringes of either side being as mad as each other just as you do in politics. This Is England was a good film. How some people are just disadvantaged and get sucked in.

Ours won't be inspired by the US (at least historically but I bet this "alt right" stuff has greatly added to it in recent times) since it's going to be more a colonial thing for us. But so much of it is fear and lack of understanding which we apply to any race or origin. So many trade in it on either side. The racists doing, well, what they do to demonise. The extreme other end mislabelling and trying to shut down legitimate debate which they don't realise just pushes people more to these attitudes. Immigration debates being a good one for that.

I agree with you and Charlie. Why can't there be a positive reason like dressing as someone you admire and portraying them respectfully? Unfortunately society isn't united on this on either side of the issue so some things you do at your own risk like how people question your dreads.

[lebonvin]

Yo Sir Terence

What you wrote is kinda interesting but yous don't make a very convincing case

If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist

Didn't you Brits years ago have a TV show where singers blacked their faces and it ran for like 15 years?

I just find the whole thing kinda funny as in amusing. The Canadian opposition is the real racist party but I hope Trudeau gets his ass kicked for being such a sneaky little barsteward

[Quinn1]

I think that was called The Black and White Minstrel Show,my parents were only talking about that yesterday,from what my dad said about it,it sounded very racist.
We had the same here in Aus a few years back where a politician browned his face,him and his a rse kissers thought it was funny....the fools.

[WiredIncorrectly]

Was the Golly Wog on the jam jar actually racist? Not sure if that's a UK thing or not.

[mezzaninedoor]

I'm sorry I'm not going to stick up for any of this.
I think the Black & White minstrel show was racist, it was appropriation, white voices singing black songs blacked up. Though it was a thing of its time.
The Gollywog on the jam jar was a UK thing and again I think it was racist, it was a horrid comic but poking fun version of a black face.
I think blacking up or browning up in the current cultural climate is probably racist because we all know its insensitive.

What I'm unsure about is how much you can roll that back 30/40 years but it's probably still done from a position of white superiority.

Lebonvin asked - If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist -
Nope I don't think thats racist but then I wouldn't see Pierre Trudeau wearing a Samuel Jackson mask racist. Masks are different to blackface. Blackface is generally used for making fun as a stereotypical black person as part of the act - not good

[MyNameIsTerry]

Was the Golly Wog on the jam jar actually racist? Not sure if that's a UK thing or not.

Yes, because like Blackface it's a caricature that emphasises physical features which were mocked on black people.

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy on blacking up anyway. Why? Little Britain were doing it in modern times and so were The League Of Gentlemen (remember Papa Lazarou, which differs as his lips & eyes are white but it gets tagged with these subjects for a reason) yet no one cared then and they don't care now. Didn't Ant & Dec do it too?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Lebonvin asked - If a black brother put on a Pierre Trudeau mask would that also be racist -
Nope I don't think thats racist but then I wouldn't see Pierre Trudeau wearing a Samuel Jackson mask racist. Masks are different to blackface. Blackface is generally used for making fun as a stereotypical black person as part of the act - not good

Perhaps whiting up is more comparable? Eddie Murphy, the Wayans brothers, Lenny Henry, etc did it. But there is no history of oppression hence it is merely seen as comedy. But what if someone black does it to mock white people which is more what I saw Charlie asking? Maybe it has to become "a thing" before it's seen in a different light?