Covid-19 discussion thread

[MyNameIsTerry]

You're conflating the issues here which are complex. I'm referring to the contradictions in govt narrative:

"We care for the elderly": Yet we've done everything to destroy their channels of support for years now.

"We will build more hospitals to cope with this virus": Yet massive "field" hospitals lie largely empty while elderly are turfed out of NHS hospitals. Meanwhile, operations are cancelled and people advised not to go into hospitals. How many people died at home, too fearful to go to A&E or call 999? How many people had cancer and other serious illnesses which were not diagnosed and treated early because they were made to believe hospitals were all "war zones"?

"We will shield and protect the elderly and vulnerable": Yet the elderly are shunted from hospitals - when many needed treatment/medication for treatable conditions - into carehomes, where many unfortunately died before their time - with or without COVID-19. GPs were also given guidance not to visit many of these carehomes - presumably because these patients had the virus and there was nothing more they could do.

Doublespeak, deceit and mendacity.

Also, I'm not the govt, Gary. We have the "authority" called govt because they claim to know better. But once damage has been done there is never an easy alternative or way back. It becomes a damage limitation issue which should never have been the case. So why should I answer what the govt should have done? They have been warning of "superbugs" and pestilence on the population for years now so they should have been prepared and now have to answer why they behaved as they did.

Just to add to the point about GPs, they have not been told not to go to care homes only. I've been told by a paramedic in person, who the GP sent because they couldn't come, that they aren't doing any house calls.

It's frustrating and we have needed GP care. The paramedics were great, we even told them we knew they shouldn't be here and it's the fault of the GP, and they called the GP to explain to them why a chronic issue is not a matter for emergency care.

[Gary A]

You're just repeating yourself to justify lockdown. How do you know it worked? How do you know it would have been any different with or without lockdown? Ferguson's predictions (like his others) were ABSURDLY exaggerated to justify lockdown. After all, there is no evidence apart from the China model, which again proves nothing. And you're STILL quoting govt stats which you KNOW DO NOT reflect the true number of who died DUE to COVID-19.


The lockdown was inhumane. Shutting hospitals down to the wider public through cancelled operations, treatment and diagnoses etc. Utterly disgusting.

How would you have felt if one of your parents had cancer treatment delayed or a heart operation cancelled? And then later died? Would you still be rationalising how all this was necessary? Or would you be raging with indignation?

Where have I said lockdown has worked? In fact, I repeatedly say that we can’t and won’t know if it’s justified until after the fact.

You’re quite right in saying I don’t know if there would have been any difference with or without lockdown, neither do you, though. That’s why you can’t say Neil Ferguson’s numbers were exaggerated and inaccurate. You can’t say he was lying. You’ve got nothing to base that on whatsoever.

I also don’t know about the stats being inaccurate. It’s funny how you’re telling me what I should know and what I shouldn’t but you apparently know all of this stuff for a fact without having absolutely no evidence. It will take time to decipher the numbers accurately, until then I’m going on the only stats available.

In answer to your “how would I have felt” question, my father was being put through a drug trial for his heart condition before lockdown, after one month his heart was working at 92% capacity up from around 85%. He was due to continue this trial and was being told by his cardiologist the results could change his life. This has been cancelled for the foreseeable. So not quite a family death, but certainly something that impacts a person I love negatively.

If he died, of course I’d be angry. I’d be equally angry if he was allowed to continue life as normal and contracted Covid-19 and died. That’s the point. I’m not trying to justify this lockdown, I’m trying to find out what you or anyone who disagrees would’ve done differently. You still haven’t answered this question.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I know I might upset a few people by saying this, but you're not missing much by never seeing 'Last of the Summer Wine' Antsy. Not the best of British comedy IMO. However, do watch if you can, 'Fawlty Towers', 'Only Fools and Horses', Blackadder, Monty Python, 'Not the Nine O'clock News', 'Alas Smith and Jones', 'The Likely Lads', 'Steptoe and Son', 'Dads Army'. There's a lot more but can't think of them all now, I'm not as young as I was.

It wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea being so slow & meandering. But if you want frenetic then Fawlty Towers (AKA Flowery Tw@ts in one episode. How did they get away with that? ) would be worth a watch.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I have watched all the Monty Pythons! I really loved those as a kid.

Are you telling me that you want to oust Terry from his new position?

Job share. I'll sit on his knee

[MyNameIsTerry]

I do indeed, so I've launched a military coup from within. Terry is now under arrest and being held at an undisclosed location.

Tis true, Vee. He slapped the cuffs on me...pink fluffy ones

[AntsyVee]

Awwww. You guys are so cute

[fishman65]

Tis true, Vee. He slapped the cuffs on me...pink fluffy ones

Don't give all our secrets away Terry. I always remember the first time I ever saw Fawlty Towers. I must have been about 15 and laughed so much I was exhausted by the end. I think John Cleese reached his zenith with that series, such genius writing and fantastic performances from his support cast. Apparently he got the idea from when they were filming Monty Python and stayed in a hotel where the owner was pretty much Basil Fawlty. I 'think' that's correct but haven't googled it so may be totally wrong.

Sorry folks this has taken the thread off topic. A little light relief though from incessant doom?

[KK77]

Where have I said lockdown has worked? In fact, I repeatedly say that we can’t and won’t know if it’s justified until after the fact.

You’re quite right in saying I don’t know if there would have been any difference with or without lockdown, neither do you, though. That’s why you can’t say Neil Ferguson’s numbers were exaggerated and inaccurate. You can’t say he was lying. You’ve got nothing to base that on whatsoever.

I also don’t know about the stats being inaccurate. It’s funny how you’re telling me what I should know and what I shouldn’t but you apparently know all of this stuff for a fact without having absolutely no evidence. It will take time to decipher the numbers accurately, until then I’m going on the only stats available.

In answer to your “how would I have felt” question, my father was being put through a drug trial for his heart condition before lockdown, after one month his heart was working at 92% capacity up from around 85%. He was due to continue this trial and was being told by his cardiologist the results could change his life. This has been cancelled for the foreseeable. So not quite a family death, but certainly something that impacts a person I love negatively.

If he died, of course I’d be angry. I’d be equally angry if he was allowed to continue life as normal and contracted Covid-19 and died. That’s the point. I’m not trying to justify this lockdown, I’m trying to find out what you or anyone who disagrees would’ve done differently. You still haven’t answered this question.

You react very strongly to any criticism of the lockdown in general which is incongruent with your statement: "I repeatedly say that we can’t and won’t know if it’s justified until after the fact." If that is the case you should be more amenable and open to the suggestion that this hasn't just, so far, been a bad error of judgement or knee-jerk reaction but a colossal car crash of our economy, physical/mental health and society as we know it. We can already see the damage done and there are far too many strands to mention here (but I have already spoken of the massive impact of isolation on our immune system, not to mention the fear and terror the media has generated and how trauma, especially in older people, shuts down the immune system). Of course you are right in that the full extent of all this hasn't yet materialised, but I fear we will rue the day. I'm not scaremongering here - I'm stating my own honest observations.

In my mind a lockdown of this scale would only be justified if this virus were to have posed an existential threat. It clearly wasn't from the beginning. Why? If this virus was as deadly and virulent as first reported there would have been no way it could have been contained in China. It would have spread like wildfire and wiped out half of the Chinese population. While Wuhan and another province were locked down, the rest of China remained open. Major cities were unaffected and the virus disappeared quickly. All the extra hospitals built were closed and China returned to normal. Biz as usual. The Chinese economy at no point shut down completely. This is not the way a deadly virus behaves. Had it been as lethal as the WHO and MSM claimed (eg, like the so-called "Spanish Flu"), many millions would be dead.

The UK Govt lowered COVID-19's risk status to that of the seasonal flu in March, and around this time Johnson was rubbishing claims that we should lock down the country. He rightly (IMO) stated that "herd immunity" would prevail. But then he was shot down in flames by Govt "Scientific Body" SAGE and other advisory depts. As PM he should have made the final decision but then came Ferguson telling him that 500,000 people "could" die if he didn't act to lock down the entire UK with unprecedented measures, suspending rights and freedoms of people in a totally disproportionate act of self-destruction. Johnson knew full well that we were NOT about to be wiped out by the plague. Even by that time, the fact that most infected people would recover with mild symptoms was established by the Chinese epidemic and also corroborated by data from the Diamond Princess cruise ship which was also affected by an outbreak. Trump also (I believe) knew the score which is why he initially called it a "Chinese" hoax. Yet he too was directed by Fauci and Birx to comply to WHO "orders".


But this is where we part company because you think making connections to entities and individuals who exert massive power/control and stand to benefit enormously from all this is "conspiracy theory nonsense".

I also wish your father all the best. I hope his treatment proves to be successful.

[KK77]

Just to add to the point about GPs, they have not been told not to go to care homes only. I've been told by a paramedic in person, who the GP sent because they couldn't come, that they aren't doing any house calls.

It's frustrating and we have needed GP care. The paramedics were great, we even told them we knew they shouldn't be here and it's the fault of the GP, and they called the GP to explain to them why a chronic issue is not a matter for emergency care.

Most GPs in London stopped doing house calls years ago! Even then, you had to have a limb hanging off, in which case they'd tell you to go A&E anyway

[MyNameIsTerry]

Most GPs in London stopped doing house calls years ago! Even then, you had to have a limb hanging off, in which case they'd tell you to go A&E anyway

Here you've got to be pretty ill unless you are a child or elderly. They certainly don't come out as easily as when I was a kid. Our closest urgent care is about 5 miles away heading into the CBD so not great on the bus full of workers and shoppers. If you can't get out it you may get a visit from local emergency GPs or community nurses which is stupid when your own GP could do the same.

All part of the GP strategy to shift the elderly onto emergency care services. I welcome them fighting back forcing GPs to take responsibility that they never should have been allowed to push away to sage money.

To be honest I'm always surprised that a place like London can be lagging compared to places in the UK politicians couldn't care less about. Seeing others on here talk about the mess mental health services is down there was a shock.