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  1. #501
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post
    Don't give all our secrets away Terry. I always remember the first time I ever saw Fawlty Towers. I must have been about 15 and laughed so much I was exhausted by the end. I think John Cleese reached his zenith with that series, such genius writing and fantastic performances from his support cast. Apparently he got the idea from when they were filming Monty Python and stayed in a hotel where the owner was pretty much Basil Fawlty. I 'think' that's correct but haven't googled it so may be totally wrong.

    Sorry folks this has taken the thread off topic. A little light relief though from incessant doom?
    Yes, they were all great. Sadly only two series but at least back then each had a good number of episodes unlike recent times. And to think the BBC boss didn't like it.

    I've heard before that he got the idea that way, I think in documentaries about it. Sadly the original Basil will be too old to appear in Four In A Bed.

    I always loved One Foot In The Grave too. Considering the amount of Rowan Atkinson in your earlier post I expect you enjoined The Thin Blue Line.
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  2. #502
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KK77 View Post
    You react very strongly to any criticism of the lockdown in general which is incongruent with your statement: "I repeatedly say that we can’t and won’t know if it’s justified until after the fact." If that is the case you should be more amenable and open to the suggestion that this hasn't just, so far, been a bad error of judgement or knee-jerk reaction but a colossal car crash of our economy, physical/mental health and society as we know it. We can already see the damage done and there are far too many strands to mention here (but I have already spoken of the massive impact of isolation on our immune system, not to mention the fear and terror the media has generated and how trauma, especially in older people, shuts down the immune system). Of course you are right in that the full extent of all this hasn't yet materialised, but I fear we will rue the day. I'm not scaremongering here - I'm stating my own honest observations.

    In my mind a lockdown of this scale would only be justified if this virus were to have posed an existential threat. It clearly wasn't from the beginning. Why? If this virus was as deadly and virulent as first reported there would have been no way it could have been contained in China. It would have spread like wildfire and wiped out half of the Chinese population. While Wuhan and another province were locked down, the rest of China remained open. Major cities were unaffected and the virus disappeared quickly. All the extra hospitals built were closed and China returned to normal. Biz as usual. The Chinese economy at no point shut down completely. This is not the way a deadly virus behaves. Had it been as lethal as the WHO and MSM claimed (eg, like the so-called "Spanish Flu"), many millions would be dead.

    The UK Govt lowered COVID-19's risk status to that of the seasonal flu in March, and around this time Johnson was rubbishing claims that we should lock down the country. He rightly (IMO) stated that "herd immunity" would prevail. But then he was shot down in flames by Govt "Scientific Body" SAGE and other advisory depts. As PM he should have made the final decision but then came Ferguson telling him that 500,000 people "could" die if he didn't act to lock down the entire UK with unprecedented measures, suspending rights and freedoms of people in a totally disproportionate act of self-destruction. Johnson knew full well that we were NOT about to be wiped out by the plague. Even by that time, the fact that most infected people would recover with mild symptoms was established by the Chinese epidemic and also corroborated by data from the Diamond Princess cruise ship which was also affected by an outbreak. Trump also (I believe) knew the score which is why he initially called it a "Chinese" hoax. Yet he too was directed by Fauci and Birx to comply to WHO "orders".


    But this is where we part company because you think making connections to entities and individuals who exert massive power/control and stand to benefit enormously from all this is "conspiracy theory nonsense".

    I also wish your father all the best. I hope his treatment proves to be successful.
    My reaction to anyone against lockdown is purely based around the fact that I personally canít think of a better idea. Comparisons with China arenít the greatest really. For one, the data coming from China isnít reliable. From the get go they werenít playing ball with this virus so itís dangerous to use their data as a complete model. Wuhan also went into strict lockdown for two months which undoubtedly contributed to suppressing the spread further afield. Their borders were completely closed.

    This isnít me really going one way or another, I have consistently said that we need better data, more accurate numbers and more study of this virus to truly know how bad it is or isnít. The WHO were only notified of this in late December, up until late January it was said, by the WHO, that human to human transmission had not been noted. This goes against the notion of them trying to exaggerate the extent, surely?

    Itís also strange that you seem to be relying on the words and predictions of politicians yet one of your main complaints has been politicians failure to deal with care home residents and the elderly. Johnson and Trump are not scientists, they are not epidemiologists. Johnson was right to listen to experts and so was Trump.

    I donít know why youíd think either of them would know better than groups of scientists and doctors whoís lifeís work has been dedicated to disease and how it spreads. I find that utterly baffling if Iím honest. On the one hand politicians are bumbling fools who canít even organise protective kit for care homes but on the other we should trust their words over that of experts in the field of virology?

    Collecting the data on this virus has taken time. We didnít have a head start, it was circulating within the population most likely before we even knew it existed. To use what happened in China as a model for the rest of the globe would have been reckless in the extreme.

    Any available data we have now points to exponential growth unless controls are put in place. Yes there are exceptions but they are very much in the minority. We had no way of knowing an accurate mortality rate because it was literally impossible to screen large amounts of the population for current or previous infection and compare it to fatalities. This is also where I canít agree that numbers are being deliberately exaggerated.

    You can only test so much in the space of a few months, and I honestly cannot for the life of me understand why any government or scientist would want to deliberately manipulate the numbers to make it look worse. That shows a huge failing on their parts does it not?

    The main point, as far as I can see, of our disagreement here is that you seem to be implying that this is all part of a plan. I think itís nothing more than a government playing catch up with a virus thatís only been in existence for 6 months. I donít think a lockdown is without its costs, far from it, I just personally cannot think of a better idea.

  3. #503
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A View Post
    My reaction to anyone against lockdown is purely based around the fact that I personally can’t think of a better idea. Comparisons with China aren’t the greatest really. For one, the data coming from China isn’t reliable. From the get go they weren’t playing ball with this virus so it’s dangerous to use their data as a complete model. Wuhan also went into strict lockdown for two months which undoubtedly contributed to suppressing the spread further afield. Their borders were completely closed.

    This isn’t me really going one way or another, I have consistently said that we need better data, more accurate numbers and more study of this virus to truly know how bad it is or isn’t. The WHO were only notified of this in late December, up until late January it was said, by the WHO, that human to human transmission had not been noted. This goes against the notion of them trying to exaggerate the extent, surely?

    It’s also strange that you seem to be relying on the words and predictions of politicians yet one of your main complaints has been politicians failure to deal with care home residents and the elderly. Johnson and Trump are not scientists, they are not epidemiologists. Johnson was right to listen to experts and so was Trump.

    I don’t know why you’d think either of them would know better than groups of scientists and doctors who’s life’s work has been dedicated to disease and how it spreads. I find that utterly baffling if I’m honest. On the one hand politicians are bumbling fools who can’t even organise protective kit for care homes but on the other we should trust their words over that of experts in the field of virology?

    Collecting the data on this virus has taken time. We didn’t have a head start, it was circulating within the population most likely before we even knew it existed. To use what happened in China as a model for the rest of the globe would have been reckless in the extreme.

    Any available data we have now points to exponential growth unless controls are put in place. Yes there are exceptions but they are very much in the minority. We had no way of knowing an accurate mortality rate because it was literally impossible to screen large amounts of the population for current or previous infection and compare it to fatalities. This is also where I can’t agree that numbers are being deliberately exaggerated.

    You can only test so much in the space of a few months, and I honestly cannot for the life of me understand why any government or scientist would want to deliberately manipulate the numbers to make it look worse. That shows a huge failing on their parts does it not?

    The main point, as far as I can see, of our disagreement here is that you seem to be implying that this is all part of a plan. I think it’s nothing more than a government playing catch up with a virus that’s only been in existence for 6 months. I don’t think a lockdown is without its costs, far from it, I just personally cannot think of a better idea.
    My reaction to anyone against lockdown is purely based around the fact that I personally can’t think of a better idea. Comparisons with China aren’t the greatest really. For one, the data coming from China isn’t reliable. From the get go they weren’t playing ball with this virus so it’s dangerous to use their data as a complete model. Wuhan also went into strict lockdown for two months which undoubtedly contributed to suppressing the spread further afield. Their borders were completely closed.

    But we still implemented a model straight out of communist China which is incompatible with a western democracy for many reasons. The Chinese rarely bat an eyelid to such draconian methods of population control but we're not a nasty dictatorship whose people are oppressed and monitored via face-recognition cameras 24/7. Furthermore, their methods of contact-tracing and surveillance are being exported to previously "democratic" sovereign countries and states. Also, how do you know the "data" that was being shared behind closed doors? You base your evidence on what was in public domain but the Chinese rarely work like that. There is also the matter of info-gathering through national intelligence agencies. I can assure you they would have been actively monitoring and evaluating this whole "pandemic" very closely.

    Epidemiologists all agree that while closing borders and quarantining people might contain spread of infection, it cannot eradicate it. So you'd have expected to see other big "waves" of outbreaks which hasn't materialised even after large provinces were reopened and the country returned to normal. I've not since heard of more Chinese epidemics. So what happened? It seems unlikely such a massive population would have all gained herd immunity since the virus was contained in such a small area.



    This isn’t me really going one way or another, I have consistently said that we need better data, more accurate numbers and more study of this virus to truly know how bad it is or isn’t. The WHO were only notified of this in late December, up until late January it was said, by the WHO, that human to human transmission had not been noted. This goes against the notion of them trying to exaggerate the extent, surely?

    It’s also strange that you seem to be relying on the words and predictions of politicians yet one of your main complaints has been politicians failure to deal with care home residents and the elderly. Johnson and Trump are not scientists, they are not epidemiologists. Johnson was right to listen to experts and so was Trump.

    The WHO is an extremely political, corrupt and biased organisation - totally in bed with Big Pharma and other expedient bedfellows. This is where your black and white thinking must be addressed: Do I think EVERYTHING they say is a lie? No. Just as not trusting Johnson or any other politician does not by extension mean EVERYTHING they utter is a lie. If everything were so black and white rationalisation would be very easy, but we have a lot of ambivalence at play. Johnson and Trump would have received briefings and intelligence on the virus situation from many advisers and scientists etc. This is the Realpolitik behind the spin, soundbites and public speeches/appearances. Their early reactions were based on these briefings. In private they were given necessary information to conclude that this virus was not an existential threat to mankind, yet in public, they had to fall in line with the WHO/Technocrats' narrative and "evidence" - quickly made public - of "worst case" scenarios and impending Armageddon. This is where the holes in the narrative lie.


    A global agenda? Yes. There is no way more than half the world would have all acted in such a coordinated way. Sovereign Govts all have their own constitutions, written and unwritten, laws and jurisdictions, and many of these "pandemic" measures have had far-reaching consequences involving violations of their citizens' human rights and freedoms.

    The UK was free to follow Sweden, Japan and other countries that exercised their right to only introducing limited measures and guidance (recommending social-distancing where possible and self-isolation if symptomatic, but not enforcing it). However, it instead went for full lockdown.

    Now we must try to pick up the pieces and move forward. But those who bear the burden of responsibility must face the music at some point.
    Last edited by KK77; 03-06-20 at 13:54.
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  4. #504
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsTerry View Post
    Yes, they were all great. Sadly only two series but at least back then each had a good number of episodes unlike recent times. And to think the BBC boss didn't like it.

    I've heard before that he got the idea that way, I think in documentaries about it. Sadly the original Basil will be too old to appear in Four In A Bed.

    I always loved One Foot In The Grave too. Considering the amount of Rowan Atkinson in your earlier post I expect you enjoined The Thin Blue Line.
    Oh yes I forgot about One Foot in the Grave, the inimitable Victor Meldrew. Strangely enough I've never seen a single episode of The Thin Blue Line, can't remember why. But yes I'm a fan of Rowan Atkinson, not quite so much Mr Bean though, even though it has its moments. Blackadder is brilliant comedy though, but again the likes of Tony Robinson, Tim McInnerny, Hugh Laurie, Stephen Fry and the odd scenes with Rik Mayall, made it what it was.

    PS - Mel Smith too, such a funny bloke and sadly missed.
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  5. #505
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KK77 View Post
    But we still implemented a model straight out of communist China which is incompatible with a western democracy for many reasons. The Chinese rarely bat an eyelid to such draconian methods of population control but we're not a nasty dictatorship whose people are oppressed and monitored via face-recognition cameras 24/7. Furthermore, their methods of contact-tracing and surveillance are being exported to previously "democratic" sovereign countries and states. Also, how do you know the "data" that was being shared behind closed doors? You base your evidence on what was in public domain but the Chinese rarely work like that. There is also the matter of info-gathering through national intelligence agencies. I can assure you they would have been actively monitoring and evaluating this whole "pandemic" very closely.

    Epidemiologists all agree that while closing borders and quarantining people might contain spread of infection, it cannot eradicate it. So you'd have expected to see other big "waves" of outbreaks which hasn't materialised even after large provinces were reopened and the country returned to normal. I've not since heard of more Chinese epidemics. So what happened? It seems unlikely such a massive population would have all gained herd immunity since the virus was contained in such a small area.






    The WHO is an extremely political, corrupt and biased organisation - totally in bed with Big Pharma and other expedient bedfellows. This is where your black and white thinking must be addressed: Do I think EVERYTHING they say is a lie? No. Just as not trusting Johnson or any other politician does not by extension mean EVERYTHING they utter is a lie. If everything were so black and white rationalisation would be very easy, but we have a lot of ambivalence at play. Johnson and Trump would have received briefings and intelligence on the virus situation from many advisers and scientists etc. This is the Realpolitik behind the spin, soundbites and public speeches/appearances. Their early reactions were based on these briefings. In private they were given necessary information to conclude that this virus was not an existential threat to mankind, yet in public, they had to fall in line with the WHO/Technocrats' narrative and "evidence" - quickly made public - of "worst case" scenarios and impending Armageddon. This is where the holes in the narrative lie.


    A global agenda? Yes. There is no way more than half the world would have all acted in such a coordinated way. Sovereign Govts all have their own constitutions, written and unwritten, laws and jurisdictions, and many of these "pandemic" measures have had far-reaching consequences involving violations of their citizens' human rights and freedoms.

    The UK was free to follow Sweden, Japan and other countries that exercised their right to only introducing limited measures and guidance (recommending social-distancing where possible and self-isolation if symptomatic, but not enforcing it). However, it instead went for full lockdown.

    Now we must try to pick up the pieces and move forward. But those who bear the burden of responsibility must face the music at some point.
    Iím not getting the China point. The outbreak happened in Wuhan and the city went into lockdown. People who had the virus either died or were isolated away from people. Two months later the incidences of infection fell dramatically. In your own words China doesnít mind using aggressive measures to contact trace etc. Yet despite all of those measures youíre claiming that the fall and subsequent control of spread is due to nothing more than the viruses effect dwindling all on its own. Youíre not basing that on anything really, are you? Youíd just rather say thatís the case than say that the control measures put in place slowed the spread.

    I donít know the data that was being shared, thatís the point. China tried to silence their own doctors over this so Iím not really for trusting their low death figures. Itís yet another case of you saying I do t know something but you can ďassure meĒ that national intelligence agencies were monitoring this pandemic closely. Can you? How? Thatís just a bald assertion that you canít back up.

    If closing borders contains the virus, why should I expect to see further large outbreaks elsewhere? Thatís just a complete contradiction.

    My so called ďblack and white thinkingĒ isnít that at all, itís just that anyone with a modicum of common sense would surely listen to virologists and epidemiologists when discussing viruses and epidemics. Youíre saying that Trump and Johnson both knew then changed the narrative. You also ignored the part about the WHO telling the world that there was no human to human transition for one month after the virus was noted. That really is a huge problem for your ďthe WHO are exaggerating the effects of this virusĒ is it not?

    You claim this is a global agenda based on countries largely following the same paths to lockdown etc. Thatís some pretty flimsy reasoning for such a big claim. Also, not much of a global agenda if nations like Sweden, Japan etc didnít follow the ďnarrativeĒ.

    You still havenít told me what youíd have done differently but I suppose Iíd be as well just accepting that Iím not getting an answer to that question.

  6. #506
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    On the point about WHO collaboration in a new world order/pro-lockdown etc etc., not only did they take a LONG time to declare an international emergency/pandemic, but its them now saying that one metre social distancing is sufficient rather than two. Surely they want us more isolated, not reduced to one metre so everyone can get back to work.
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A View Post


    My so called ďblack and white thinkingĒ isnít that at all, itís just that anyone with a modicum of common sense would surely listen to virologists and epidemiologists when discussing viruses and epidemics. Youíre saying that Trump and Johnson both knew then changed the narrative. You also ignored the part about the WHO telling the world that there was no human to human transition for one month after the virus was noted. That really is a huge problem for your ďthe WHO are exaggerating the effects of this virusĒ is it not?

    .
    The WHO declared it a global pandemic after the $100 million cash injection from the Gates foundation. You seem to be completely ignoring this obvious conflict of interest. Imperial College London is heavily funded by Bill Gates as well. It was after that when the lockdown downs were enforced in countries around the world who followed advice from WHO.

    https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...cts-of-intere/


    On March 11, one day after Business Insider reported how Gates had been pushing for a WHO declaration of pandemic on the coronavirus ó one day after Gates announced the infusion of millions of dollars into a WHO-partnered venture called COVID-19 Therapeutics Accelerator, that dangled the prospect of putting more regulatory powers into the hands of the global elitists ó one day after that, WHOís director-general made an interesting announcement.

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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    So is this going to be called a Gatesgate scandal?

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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post
    On the point about WHO collaboration in a new world order/pro-lockdown etc etc., not only did they take a LONG time to declare an international emergency/pandemic, but its them now saying that one metre social distancing is sufficient rather than two. Surely they want us more isolated, not reduced to one metre so everyone can get back to work.
    I think I remember seeing 1m a while back when this started and the difference was a lower infection rate with 2m.

    It's started getting more confused by outdoor being less of a threat than indoor. Whilst true it has an air of we are less bothered if you do what you want outside.
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    Re: Covid-19 discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post
    Oh yes I forgot about One Foot in the Grave, the inimitable Victor Meldrew. Strangely enough I've never seen a single episode of The Thin Blue Line, can't remember why. But yes I'm a fan of Rowan Atkinson, not quite so much Mr Bean though, even though it has its moments. Blackadder is brilliant comedy though, but again the likes of Tony Robinson, Tim McInnerny, Hugh Laurie, Stephen Fry and the odd scenes with Rik Mayall, made it what it was.

    PS - Mel Smith too, such a funny bloke and sadly missed.
    I loved Mel Smith. Being in the energy sector I will always remember the British Gas sketch.

    I don't mind Mr Bean but it's pitched more at the silly end and more for the kids. The Thin Blue Line being Ben Elton is more adult. It's very funny.

    Timeless comedy. You might have missed off Victor Meldrew but you had a great list. This year I watched Steptoe and Son, One Foot In The Grave, Dad's Army, Fawlty Towers, The Thin Blue Line, Bottom, Red Dwarf, Allo Allo and Porridge.
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