Covid and the economy

[Lencoboy]

I'm with you Lenco. Pessimism only begets more pessimism and is extremely destructive.

Agreed. I'm pretty convinced that the last crash back in 2008 was largely exacerbated by the constant pessimism and hype by both the media and the general public at large.

Sadly no different now IMO, though this time no one can blame the (UK) Labour Party, as they have not been in power for ten years now.

[Noivous]

As in 2008 2020 is also an election year. There are those in both instances that have used and are using a crisis for political gain. I don't know how this virus began but there is no shortage of different factions trying to co-opt it to drive their own agenda. I'm obviously a trump supporter and a down, badly battered economy supposedly is going to hurt him politically and help his political adversaries. so it's no surprise that the gloom-and-doomerrs are on the left. Because President Trump had this economy sailing along beautifully. But I think when he starts to roll on the campaign trail and starts putting voice to the bad ideas of open borders and their connection to the virus, and United States companies being in bed with communist China and the virus connection...well I think that is going to sell very well with the American people. Because it's true.

[Lencoboy]

As in 2008 2020 is also an election year. There are those in both instances that have used and are using a crisis for political gain. I don't know how this virus began but there is no shortage of different factions trying to co-opt it to drive their own agenda. I'm obviously a trump supporter and a down, badly battered economy supposedly is going to hurt him politically and help his political adversaries. so it's no surprise that the gloom-and-doomerrs are on the left. Because President Trump had this economy sailing along beautifully. But I think when he starts to roll on the campaign trail and starts putting voice to the bad ideas of open borders and their connection to the virus, and United States companies being in bed with communist China and the virus connection...well I think that is going to sell very well with the American people. Because it's true.

Our economy was already far from booming prior to the pandemic, as many people were increasingly tightening their belts ahead of the much-feared Brexit fallout and the ongoing austerity measures, but just like the rest of the world, our economic 'bogeyman' has now shifted to COVID-19, and all other causes are now pretty much forgotten!!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yes Terry good catch. Unless Kelley116 deleted it. May never know.

Anyway here's the piece w/video that YouTube censored of two prominent Californian Dr's.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/...ng-of-country/

I feel it's time to fire the economy back up. Plus I need a haircut really badly.

No, N, only Admin can make it disappear. We can delete a thread we start but we still see the deletion on the board.

There is an irony in some people complaining about censure when referral to Admin forces them to take action that includes it...

Anyway, a third thread has joined them. Same issue. I fully support Admin in their clampdown on people labelling members trolls but I think this is a different scenario where they also need consider scaremongering conspiracy theory being effectively retweeted on here and inflammatory remarks that could offend members e.g. NHS staff getting a licence to murder.

Whilst I agree the NHS has made massive errors that have led to deaths due to policies of certains hospitals and unethical medical staff, right now we are clapping them. Implying they are murderers in the waiting might offend some of us who are in their debt or have loved ones in that sector like yourself.

[Gary A]

In fairness, it could be that admin are burying these threads because of the inflammatory posts and conspiracy theories.

I would be very surprised, and disappointed, if admin classed scaremongering and inflammatory accusations about the NHS as freedom of speech but deemed an accusation of trolling a step too far.

[MyNameIsTerry]

In fairness, it could be that admin are burying these threads because of the inflammatory posts and conspiracy theories.

I would be very surprised, and disappointed, if admin classed scaremongering and inflammatory accusations about the NHS as freedom of speech but deemed an accusation of trolling a step too far.

Could be.

I'm more for addressing the issue than watching it spill out in more threads. Cooling things down is good but I feel this is sending a somewhat one-sided message in this case. It's not addressing it when the conspiracy theories just keep popping up on the next thread.

Troll calling is one Admin have addressed time & time again, there are rules about it. I just think this is a new issue needing Admin to have time to address it. Inflammatory and causing offence, which we can always report if we feel strongly or debate the person, is broad and there is a line between legitimate discussion and stuff deemed inappropriate on a board of scared people during scary times.

On the HA board links get removed as they have on the big coronavirus thread. I'm at odds with this because Misc is where we do discuss such things but some stuff might be going a bit far at this time?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Posted by Lencoboy:

Going back to the original question about when to and how best to exit the lockdown, I am still very much 'on the fence'.

Whatever the event it is likely to be highly controversial and pretty much every option will inevitably be met with derision.

I still believe the original lockdown was an absolute necessity and proportionate at the time (even though it should have happened at least two weeks earlier than it did), but the other side of me now believes that at some point the govt should bite the bullet and gradually relax certain restrictions, even though the number of deaths and new infections have, at worst, remained more or less stable over the past month or so, and they say one of the main reasons for the lockdown was not to overburden the NHS with excessive CV cases all in one go.

I know I'll be shot down in flames for stating the above but I was merely expressing my own POV, whilst at the same time trying my hardest to acknowledge the views and opinions of both camps who are for and against the easing of restrictions

.

Posted by pulisa:

I agree with you too, Lencoboy. It's a lottery and we have no control over what is decided. We need a united approach from the Government but that will never happen.

Posted by travelgirl77:

I agree with pretty much everything you have said....and I do not think that this is a decision about money versus people's lives; it simply is not that black and white. To give some perspective, I work in human resources for an engineering firm with offices in multiple states. All of our offices and most of the construction sites are closed down. In the past month I have had to furlough 7 people throughout our company. They may have access to unemployment but it is not going to be able to match their current salaries. My firm is able to cover health insurance for these individuals for 90 days, but I imagine most companies cannot do this. In addition to people losing their jobs and income (which absolutely has an impact on a person's health) I had to sign off on an unpaid leave form for an employee who has decided that they need to go to a treatment center because being quarantined and not having the daily flux and interaction of a job has brought substance abuse to the surface. I have multiple employees calling me because they just cannot function; cannot stay motivated...it is heart wrenching. At the same time, I have had three employees with the virus and one whose elderly parents had the virus. They are all doing fine now (not to belittle the sickness at all). Yesterday I was speaking with our health and safety manager and she was saying that she was thankful that she was diagnosed with depression as a teenager because she has the tools to be able to work through some of this during this time. Her real concern is with all of those people who have never had to address it before and now these quarantines are bringing them to light and they have absolutely no outlet.

It is a multi-layered issue and I would never be so smug to say that it is ludicrous that things are opening up. I am fortunate in that I work from home and my husband is essential, but I cannot begrudge one person who has been let go from their job and is anxious to get back to work to provide for their families and just to have some sense of normalcy. I honestly feel like pretty much every country is trying to do the best they can do with the knowledge they have at hand. There is not some big scorecard out there which shows this country got it right and this one got it wrong. We all have different factors that impact the spread and the percentages. And, with the ever changing facts and figures, it is like trying to shoot at a moving target. Heck, they come out with a new symptom every single day! They have told us to stay at home and now it is coming out that most of the illnesses are reported among people who are at home or in assisted living homes. The projections have been incorrect; when it was first in any country has been way off; how it is transmitted has been wrong; treatments have been found lacking....it is incredibly frustrating. It is hard to believe anything that has come out form any one source because the next week it is overridden by something else, even among scientists and medical professionals.

All this to say, it is a catch-22 by any government right now: damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I've posted these over Gary's thread which has been temporarily locked because I wanted to add my agreement.

I don't think you will be flamed for saying any of this because it's not as simple as saving lives or earning money. As KK pointed out in another thread the impact to small businesses could be catastrophic for them. How about larger companies even who are operating close to administration? Will we bail them all out? Will people's debts get covered or will they find themselves struggling to stop the debt collectors knocking on their doors?

There is no right decision here, only risky ones. I'm sure with hindsight political opponents will carp on but would they have faired better.

Also its not just about now. How on earth are paying all this back? More austerity? But hasn't that been the cause of much suffering and lives lost? So is it lives saved from coronavirus or lives saved from everything else in a few years with the NHS saying they are still struggling as they always are?

It's not just about fat cats and hedge fund managers.

Travelgirl also mentioned some excellent, but very sad, hidden dangers. It is very real and whilst many of us can deal with this there are those it is bringing suffering upon. Some of those may become deaths too.

I do agree it's still too early with our numbers so anything lifted needs to be closely monitored and small anyway. But a worthwhile byproduct of coming out of lockdown is to mental health. I know from personal experience what this doing and a return to normality will help (But not without additional support to deal with the damage caused).

[Hollow]

How about you provide the link to the article as well on which this post was based on so that people can make their own minds up. You're being disingenuous by going around cherry picking comments without providing any background or context to them. This is simply a deliberate attempt at character assassination and pretty sh***y behaviour overall.

That article was about granting legal immunity to the NHS so that medics can't be held responsible for negligence. That's a dangerous road to go down on because there are psychopaths in every institution doesn't matter how "noble" it is. Obviously, I wasn't saying that every NHS medic is going to start murdering people but there's always the likes of Harold Shipman out there.

I understand people have a emotional connection with the NHS but Anyone can see that it's being used as a pawn in all this. Since madhouse Britain no longer has genuine social or cultural cohesion, they want everyone to "get behind the NHS" so that it creates a superficial, illusion of unity.

[Gary A]

How about you provide the link to the article as well on which this post was based on so that people can make their own minds up. You're being disingenuous by going around cherry picking comments without providing any background or context to them. This is simply a deliberate attempt at character assassination and pretty sh***y behaviour overall.

That article was about granting legal immunity to the NHS so that medics can't be held responsible for negligence. That's a dangerous road to go down on because there are psychopaths in every institution doesn't matter how "noble" it is. Obviously, I wasn't saying that every NHS medic is going to start murdering people but there's always the likes of Harold Shipman out there.

I understand people have a emotional connection with the NHS but Anyone can see that it's being used as a pawn in all this. Since madhouse Britain no longer has genuine social or cultural cohesion, they want everyone to "get behind the NHS" so that it creates a superficial, illusion of unity.

You literally said the words “giving the NHS a licence to murder”, and it was centred around an article that mentioned certain NHS staff members getting legal protection during this crisis. It’s came to nothing as far as I know.

Also, stop saying “anyone can see...” because that’s just your assumption. I see people praising the NHS, specifically front line healthcare workers, because they are putting themselves in harms way in order to treat people. That’s all. We all know their limitations, we all know they’re not above reproach but right now it’s a time to give these workers a pat on the back.

It has nothing to do with emotional attachment, it’s about showing other human beings that their efforts aren’t going unnoticed. If you don’t want to partake, fine, but you’re simply throwing mud for no reason other than your own warped version of reality. Your silly “theories” are becoming more bizarre by the day, and your repeated attempts at playing the victim wore thin a long time ago.

[Lencoboy]

How about you provide the link to the article as well on which this post was based on so that people can make their own minds up. You're being disingenuous by going around cherry picking comments without providing any background or context to them. This is simply a deliberate attempt at character assassination and pretty sh***y behaviour overall.

That article was about granting legal immunity to the NHS so that medics can't be held responsible for negligence. That's a dangerous road to go down on because there are psychopaths in every institution doesn't matter how "noble" it is. Obviously, I wasn't saying that every NHS medic is going to start murdering people but there's always the likes of Harold Shipman out there.

I understand people have a emotional connection with the NHS but Anyone can see that it's being used as a pawn in all this. Since madhouse Britain no longer has genuine social or cultural cohesion, they want everyone to "get behind the NHS" so that it creates a superficial, illusion of unity.

Remember losers like that odious Harold Shipman were, and still remain, the extreme exception. Sadly, pretty much every profession one can poke a stick at always has (and sadly, probably always will), the odd unscrupulous 'bad apples' working within them, whether it's school teachers, police officers, social workers, NHS/health workers, firefighters, magistrates, MPs/councillors, bankers, company directors, store managers, you name them, and even just the odd 'run-of-the-mill' employees, who all have tendencies to revel in corruption and unethical conduct, and think they are above the law and untouchable.

Though thankfully, in these more enlightened times, these so-called 'professionals' generally have to be 'vetted' (e.g. CRB checks) prior to being approved and appointed their roles. And while there will no doubt be the odd, occasional sad cases who succeed in 'slipping through the net' things for the most part, are generally a helluva lot stricter now than ever before, especially within today's rampant 'suing' culture. And quite rightly so.

And your description of 'madhouse Britain' yet again sums up this febrile culture of us Brits revelling in thinking we are the worst for almost everything. We had it non-stop between 2005 and 2010 with our former PM David Cameron (when still in opposition) constantly sporting his poxy 'Broken Britain' mantra. Then around 2006-07 (I think) we had the DM sporting the front-page headline 'UK teens are the worst behaved in Europe'!!

And I am NOT a 'snowflake'/'woke' by any means, in fact far from it!!