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  1. #1
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    America's 2nd Civil War

    I read a pretty good article the other day about the pending second civil war in the United States. Actually it was an excerpt from a new book coming out. But it made the case for dividing up the country into two countries essentially because the author felt that's what it has become and our differences have become so polarized that there's no going back. He said that it could be a bloodless break up. For years I've been saying we should just draw a line down the middle of the country and make one side, probably the right side, conservative America - CUSA and the left side liberal America - LUSA (of course everyone would refer to that side as loser but so be it). You could choose what side you want to live on and be a citizen of at the beginning but that's it once you've signed on that's the country you're a citizen of. The conservative side could be a capitalistic system while the liberal side could be total socialism.

    Which side would you like to live on?

    N..

  2. #2
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    I think it's this kind of "us vs. them" thinking that divides us even more, N. I think it's also too black and white, all or nothing, thinking that assumes everyone can just fit into a box, right or left, liberal or conservative.

    I honestly think both countries would fail. Pure capitalism doesn't work. Pure socialism doesn't work. You need a capitalist system tempered with some socialist policies to be successful...if you look at most industrialized countries today.

    You and I are about as different as night and day when it comes to politics N, but we get a long on this forum. We enjoy ribbing each other and joking about other things. You truly don't believe you and I can live together as Americans in the same country anymore?
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  3. #3
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Here's an excerpt from the book - see below. Personally I think if there is secession that it's going to come from the right because we're just tired of being bothered. by nature conservatives just want to go about their business and do their thing where progressives are never satisfied...simply based on the term progressive. I was listening to a guy on the radio talk the other day and he said the next civil war is going to come from the south again only this time they are going to win. they're not going to allow a few liberal states in the Northeast and on the west coast dictate how they are going to live.

    Excerpt:
    Secession movement might find fertile ground in today’s political climate.

    Secession. It’s a crazy idea, right? But it’s less crazy than you might think. With all the secessionist movements across the world, it becomes easier to imagine breakups, even in the United States. It’s easier still when the pluses are so much greater than they were in the past, and the minuses so much smaller.


    The pluses are so much greater today because the federal government’s footprint has grown so much larger. In the past, the states had less reason to chafe at the rule from Washington. A spring in the back yard didn’t become a federal wetland. Teachers didn’t receive letters from the Department of Education telling them how to run their schools. Local highway decisions weren’t made in Washington because of the strings attached to federal grants. Now America increasingly looks more like a unitary state than like the federal republic the Framers of the Constitution thought they had given us. With secession, we would reverse course.

    If there’s more reason for a state to secede today, there’s also a much smaller downside. It wouldn’t perpetuate slavery in the South, as secession in 1861 would have done. Even after the Civil War had brought an end to slavery, federalism and “states’ rights” were discredited by southern Jim Crow laws and barriers to voting registration for black Americans. Since then, however, the civil rights revolution has taken hold and it’s much less likely that secession would be employed to discriminate against a minority. Even notorious racists such as Senator Jim Eastland (D-MS) understood how the 1965 Voting Rights Act and federal marshals had changed the equation. “When [the blacks] get the vote,” he said, “I won’t be talking this way anymore.” Far from bringing back Jim Crow, secession today in a place like California might give us the perfect paradise of woke progressivism.
    Instead of the Civil War, think of the “velvet divorce” of the Czechs and Slovaks in 1993. Distinct in religion, language and culture, they had been combined in a country created in 1918 after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Slovaks were conservative and agricultural while the Czechs liked avant-garde plays and rock music. Czechoslovakia suffered through Nazi and Soviet rule, and then split apart into Slovakia and the Czech Republic upon the fall of communism. The two new countries, both Western and liberal, solved questions about their border, the division of assets and assumption of public debt through negotiation, and they’ve since maintained the friendliest of relations.

    We’re now living in a secessionist moment in world history, as a result of three international developments. The first was the decolonization movement., which gave birth to new countries in Africa and Asia as European countries shrank. Like the American Revolution, the grant of independence was a form of secession from the colonial power. The second development was the end of the Cold War. When countries had faced the threat of Communist expansion, they did not wish to weaken themselves by dividing in two countries, or weren’t given that option. South Vietnam wasn’t permitted to remain independent of North Vietnam, for example. But after the Communist empire fell, twenty-four new countries emerged from behind the Iron Curtain. The third development was the worldwide embrace of free trade. When countries subjected foreign goods to high tariffs but let domestic goods pass freely, small size meant greater barriers to trade, and that was a cost. If a seceding state could enter into a free trade zone with the one it was splitting away from, and accede to its free-trade treaties, that cost would disappear.
    All this points to a rise in American secessionism. To American states that chafe at rule from Washington, the federal government can seem like a distant and burdensome colonial power. That was the point of the Tea Party movement, after all. “Party like it’s 1773!” said Sarah Palin, recalling the first Tea Party. The fall of communism has also lessened the need for the powerful military that only a large state can provide. Finally, a seceding state might hope to retain free-trade links with the rest of the United States, as Quebec separatists had sought with their idea of sovereignty-association. (RELATED: Texit? Meet The Folks Making The Push For The Second Biggest State In The US To Secede)

    In short, the stakes have been lowered, and that’s why a modern president might react to a secession referendum with more of James Buchanan’s prudence and less of Abraham Lincoln’s unyielding assertion of federal sovereignty. Secession might also seem like a reasonable way to resolve unbridgeable partisan differences, in which case an Article V convention to amend the Constitution might work out our own velvet divorce. Finally, the right of secession might find support in the Supreme Court, were it to follow the decision of the Canadian Supreme Court when it was faced with the possibility of a successful independence referendum in Quebec.

    Cass Sunstein has said that “no serious scholar or politician now argues that a right to secede exists under American constitutional law.” He’s right. But I will show how it could still happen through constitutional means.
    Last edited by Noivous; 13-05-20 at 17:06.

  4. #4
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by AntsyVee View Post
    I think it's this kind of "us vs. them" thinking that divides us even more, N. I think it's also too black and white, all or nothing, thinking that assumes everyone can just fit into a box, right or left, liberal or conservative.

    I honestly think both countries would fail. Pure capitalism doesn't work. Pure socialism doesn't work. You need a capitalist system tempered with some socialist policies to be successful...if you look at most industrialized countries today.

    You and I are about as different as night and day when it comes to politics N, but we get a long on this forum. We enjoy ribbing each other and joking about other things. You truly don't believe you and I can live together as Americans in the same country anymore?
    Agreed. And what is pure? How many on the left and right don't agreed with others on their side? There are those to the fringes who would still cause friction because their views are much harder. The more moderate of each side would still have to deal with them.

    Take our Labour party as an example. The hard left have spent the last few years in a bitter fight for control that has seen them lurch further left causing traditional working class voters to cease voting for them. The party thought having the most members in Europe was brilliant but they forget 500k is tiny in our country. They got trounced and now it's still kicking off as the factions fight dirty over the new leader who isn't as far to the left.

    Similar examples can be found in the Tory party.
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  5. #5
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    I've thought about this based on the deep divide in our country. IMO, we've become too comfortable and complacent in our lives to actually take up arms and fight each other. As far as dividing the country? Again, the reality is it won't happen.

    Will there be incidents? No doubt and they'll be ugly like they were in Charlottesville when that right wing maniac drove his car into the crowd, killed one and injured several. There are right wing militia groups that would have no problem pulling the triggers of their AR15s. Will left wing protesters beat the poo out of a group of a pro-life group? Probably. Yeah, IMO, its going to get a lot uglier moving forward from both sides.

    Will it result in an armed conflict or division of the states? Nope. Lets be honest... If you are conservative and live in a blue state, are you going to pack up your life and move to live in a like minded red state? Visa Versa applies. Would you seriously consider arming yourself and joining a militia to fight the opposition? OR... is posting on social media from the comfort of your easy chair enjoying a cold one more your speed? Our society has changed. I don't believe we'll ever see the types of protests we've seen in our past or other countries around the world. Sure, there will be protests. Sure, people will gather carrying signs. There will be incidents of violence. But a full blown war? Nahhhh... we're too freaking lazy to be honest.

    Positive thoughts
    Last edited by Fishmanpa; 13-05-20 at 23:27.
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  6. #6
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    So what you're saying is the 'greatest country on earth' needs to sulk and not talk to itself any more because it can't get along?

    No.

    And of course it won't result in armed conflict. The mouthy ones that stockpiled all the guns have done precisely nothing in the face of the exact thing they were arming themselves for.

    Fishmanpaa is spot on. Too comfortable and lazy to actually do anything. In the meantime, the ones that are causing the issue are the ones allowing themselves to become divided by various media outlets. You actually put all these people in a room together and good old fashioned human instinct comes in and they start getting along.

  7. #7
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    No way the current federal government would let that happen, no matter who is President. That's a conservative Southern good ol' boy pipe dream. And if people did try that in any state, they would end up like Ruby Ridge or Waco, Texas. The same type of people who had the same type of thinking and look what happened to them.

    But it doesn't matter now, because this virus is going to change a lot of things that will probably bury such political radical notions. Because this virus has got us by the balls right now. It's like an outside invading force coming into the country and successfully reducing our numbers on each politically divided side. So it demands our attention, one way or another, whether we all disagree or agree politically.
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  8. #8
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Who said anything about armed conflict (not that I think for one second that that couldn't happen)? But did you read the piece?

  9. #9
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Do you think that at one time, and not that long ago, anyone thought the USSR would be no more?
    I find it amusing that it's the lefties who generally don't want the split. Of course they do like to run things by fiat... BTW that's not a car for you libs.

  10. #10
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by PanickyGuy View Post
    No way the current federal government would let that happen, no matter who is President. That's a conservative Southern good ol' boy pipe dream. And if people did try that in any state, they would end up like Ruby Ridge or Waco, Texas. The same type of people who had the same type of thinking and look what happened to them.

    But it doesn't matter now, because this virus is going to change a lot of things that will probably bury such political radical notions. Because this virus has got us by the balls right now. It's like an outside invading force coming into the country and successfully reducing our numbers on each politically divided side. So it demands our attention, one way or another, whether we all disagree or agree politically.
    Waco Texas? Apparently you don't know what that was all about panicky guy.

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