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Thread: America's 2nd Civil War

  1. #11
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsTerry View Post
    Agreed. And what is pure? How many on the left and right don't agreed with others on their side? There are those to the fringes who would still cause friction because their views are much harder. The more moderate of each side would still have to deal with them.

    Take our Labour party as an example. The hard left have spent the last few years in a bitter fight for control that has seen them lurch further left causing traditional working class voters to cease voting for them. The party thought having the most members in Europe was brilliant but they forget 500k is tiny in our country. They got trounced and now it's still kicking off as the factions fight dirty over the new leader who isn't as far to the left.

    Similar examples can be found in the Tory party.
    But Terry isn't Scotland talking about leaving the UK? And didn't the UK just leave the EU? See it's easy to just say oh it could never happen. Are you kidding me? Look around at world history. Look at recent history. Do you really think in a hundred years the world is going to look exactly the same?

  2. #12
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    .

    Excerpt:
    Secession movement might find fertile ground in today’s political climate.

    Secession. It’s a crazy idea, right? But it’s less crazy than you might think. With all the secessionist movements across the world, it becomes easier to imagine breakups, even in the United States. It’s easier still when the pluses are so much greater than they were in the past, and the minuses so much smaller.


    The pluses are so much greater today because the federal government’s footprint has grown so much larger. In the past, the states had less reason to chafe at the rule from Washington. A spring in the back yard didn’t become a federal wetland. Teachers didn’t receive letters from the Department of Education telling them how to run their schools. Local highway decisions weren’t made in Washington because of the strings attached to federal grants. Now America increasingly looks more like a unitary state than like the federal republic the Framers of the Constitution thought they had given us. With secession, we would reverse course.

    If there’s more reason for a state to secede today, there’s also a much smaller downside. It wouldn’t perpetuate slavery in the South, as secession in 1861 would have done. Even after the Civil War had brought an end to slavery, federalism and “states’ rights” were discredited by southern Jim Crow laws and barriers to voting registration for black Americans. Since then, however, the civil rights revolution has taken hold and it’s much less likely that secession would be employed to discriminate against a minority. Even notorious racists such as Senator Jim Eastland (D-MS) understood how the 1965 Voting Rights Act and federal marshals had changed the equation. “When [the blacks] get the vote,” he said, “I won’t be talking this way anymore.” Far from bringing back Jim Crow, secession today in a place like California might give us the perfect paradise of woke progressivism.
    Instead of the Civil War, think of the “velvet divorce” of the Czechs and Slovaks in 1993. Distinct in religion, language and culture, they had been combined in a country created in 1918 after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Slovaks were conservative and agricultural while the Czechs liked avant-garde plays and rock music. Czechoslovakia suffered through Nazi and Soviet rule, and then split apart into Slovakia and the Czech Republic upon the fall of communism. The two new countries, both Western and liberal, solved questions about their border, the division of assets and assumption of public debt through negotiation, and they’ve since maintained the friendliest of relations.

    We’re now living in a secessionist moment in world history, as a result of three international developments. The first was the decolonization movement., which gave birth to new countries in Africa and Asia as European countries shrank. Like the American Revolution, the grant of independence was a form of secession from the colonial power. The second development was the end of the Cold War. When countries had faced the threat of Communist expansion, they did not wish to weaken themselves by dividing in two countries, or weren’t given that option. South Vietnam wasn’t permitted to remain independent of North Vietnam, for example. But after the Communist empire fell, twenty-four new countries emerged from behind the Iron Curtain. The third development was the worldwide embrace of free trade. When countries subjected foreign goods to high tariffs but let domestic goods pass freely, small size meant greater barriers to trade, and that was a cost. If a seceding state could enter into a free trade zone with the one it was splitting away from, and accede to its free-trade treaties, that cost would disappear.
    All this points to a rise in American secessionism. To American states that chafe at rule from Washington, the federal government can seem like a distant and burdensome colonial power. That was the point of the Tea Party movement, after all. “Party like it’s 1773!” said Sarah Palin, recalling the first Tea Party. The fall of communism has also lessened the need for the powerful military that only a large state can provide. Finally, a seceding state might hope to retain free-trade links with the rest of the United States, as Quebec separatists had sought with their idea of sovereignty-association. (RELATED: Texit? Meet The Folks Making The Push For The Second Biggest State In The US To Secede)

    In short, the stakes have been lowered, and that’s why a modern president might react to a secession referendum with more of James Buchanan’s prudence and less of Abraham Lincoln’s unyielding assertion of federal sovereignty. Secession might also seem like a reasonable way to resolve unbridgeable partisan differences, in which case an Article V convention to amend the Constitution might work out our own velvet divorce. Finally, the right of secession might find support in the Supreme Court, were it to follow the decision of the Canadian Supreme Court when it was faced with the possibility of a successful independence referendum in Quebec.

    Cass Sunstein has said that “no serious scholar or politician now argues that a right to secede exists under American constitutional law.” He’s right. But I will show how it could still happen through constitutional means.
    So here's what I think of this excerpt. Now granted, I'm not a Phd. I'm only an MA, and not in constitutional law, but in American history.

    I don't think that secession is a far off idea or completely unheard of. For example, in the 2016 election, there were Californians who talked of secession because they didn't like the results of the election. There are groups in Michigan that talk of it all the time.

    I do however, think that "the stakes" meaning the pitfalls for a state and the US if a succession were to occur, vary by the state. For instance, if California would secede, you can guarantee that there would be a backlash against that, as we are the fifth largest economy in the world. The rest of the US would not want to lose that. Maybe they wouldn't care so much if let's say Idaho were to secede? Not sure, but maybe not as much. However, even wealthy states like ours still rely on the federal government for funding. Even with our budget surplus we've had in the past few years, we've still been brought low by CV, and we're asking for aid just like every other state. If we cannot fully support ourselves, as a wealthy state, how would those states like Idaho survive on their own?

    Additionally, I'd also like to point out that Lincoln wasn't the first president to face secession by a state in the US. During Andrew Jackson's presidency, South Carolina threatened to secede over tariffs that they didn't want to pay. Jackson lowered the tariffs, but threatened them with military force if they took their threats any further. He even lost his own VP over the incident. Jefferson considered it during Adams' presidency if the Alien and Sedition Acts weren't overturned. Then were was a whole convention on it again during Jefferson's presidency. This idea isn't new.

    As far as I'm aware, secession isn't mentioned in our Constitution. Our Constitution sets up an "indestructible" union. However, if 3/4s of the states hold a Constitutional Convention and agree to let a state or states leave or conversely kick states out, the Constitution does support that.
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  3. #13
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    Waco Texas? Apparently you don't know what that was all about panicky guy.
    The point was the end result. What happened in the end. Not what started it - yeah I know about the weapons violation. Do you think the people in power behind the federal government are going to let any state succeed from the feds? They will do just like they did with the Waco Branch Davidians, but on a larger scale - it's called "siege". So that is what I'm talking about, because the incident at Waco is called the "Waco Siege" because of how the feds handled it in the end. And that's how people like Timothy McVeigh saw it, so he retaliated in return?

    Constitution law or not, the last Civil War has many good historical lessons why the federal government will not let any state succeed.
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  4. #14
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    I read a pretty good article the other day about the pending second civil war in the United States. Actually it was an excerpt from a new book coming out. But it made the case for dividing up the country into two countries essentially because the author felt that's what it has become and our differences have become so polarized that there's no going back. He said that it could be a bloodless break up. For years I've been saying we should just draw a line down the middle of the country and make one side, probably the right side, conservative America - CUSA and the left side liberal America - LUSA (of course everyone would refer to that side as loser but so be it). You could choose what side you want to live on and be a citizen of at the beginning but that's it once you've signed on that's the country you're a citizen of. The conservative side could be a capitalistic system while the liberal side could be total socialism.

    Which side would you like to live on?

    N..
    Hi N.
    I will stay and live in Aus
    Hope you are well living in The Land of The Free.and sending well wishes for your family x

  5. #15
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolalee1 View Post
    Hi N.
    I will stay and live in Aus
    Hope you are well living in The Land of The Free.and sending well wishes for your family x
    ... and I will stay and live in Aotearoa (New Zealand), the best little place on the planet ... Aus comes in second Ms L, we are both so fortunate

  6. #16
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by PanickyGuy View Post
    The point was the end result. What happened in the end. Not what started it - yeah I know about the weapons violation. Do you think the people in power behind the federal government are going to let any state succeed from the feds? They will do just like they did with the Waco Branch Davidians, but on a larger scale - it's called "siege". So that is what I'm talking about, because the incident at Waco is called the "Waco Siege" because of how the feds handled it in the end. And that's how people like Timothy McVeigh saw it, so he retaliated in return?

    Constitution law or not, the last Civil War has many good historical lessons why the federal government will not let any state succeed.
    Fair enough PG. Reno blew it on that one big time. But what if you get a thousand Timothy Mcveigh's? Do you think that is not possible? Governments also cave-in as we found out with the USSR. And believe me I'm not advocating for secession I just think it's a pretty good debate. But I also believe that it can happen.

  7. #17
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by AntsyVee View Post
    So here's what I think of this excerpt. Now granted, I'm not a Phd. I'm only an MA, and not in constitutional law, but in American history.

    I don't think that secession is a far off idea or completely unheard of. For example, in the 2016 election, there were Californians who talked of secession because they didn't like the results of the election. There are groups in Michigan that talk of it all the time.

    I do however, think that "the stakes" meaning the pitfalls for a state and the US if a succession were to occur, vary by the state. For instance, if California would secede, you can guarantee that there would be a backlash against that, as we are the fifth largest economy in the world. The rest of the US would not want to lose that. Maybe they wouldn't care so much if let's say Idaho were to secede? Not sure, but maybe not as much. However, even wealthy states like ours still rely on the federal government for funding. Even with our budget surplus we've had in the past few years, we've still been brought low by CV, and we're asking for aid just like every other state. If we cannot fully support ourselves, as a wealthy state, how would those states like Idaho survive on their own?

    Additionally, I'd also like to point out that Lincoln wasn't the first president to face secession by a state in the US. During Andrew Jackson's presidency, South Carolina threatened to secede over tariffs that they didn't want to pay. Jackson lowered the tariffs, but threatened them with military force if they took their threats any further. He even lost his own VP over the incident. Jefferson considered it during Adams' presidency if the Alien and Sedition Acts weren't overturned. Then were was a whole convention on it again during Jefferson's presidency. This idea isn't new.

    As far as I'm aware, secession isn't mentioned in our Constitution. Our Constitution sets up an "indestructible" union. However, if 3/4s of the states hold a Constitutional Convention and agree to let a state or states leave or conversely kick states out, the Constitution does support that.
    California has a budget surplus? That's the first time I've heard that one. Are we talkin about a Democrat budget surplus or a real budget surplus? LOL!

    I don't have an MA just a bachelor's degree... I purposely didn't say BS cuz that would draw some pretty good jokes. However I did test out of American History and United States Government in college. High School used to give us a pretty good education.

    I appreciate you reading the entire piece Antsy. And thanks for the history lesson. Geographically California would be the one to go and with their huge population of Hispanics from Mexico it would make sense. In the piece that I attached the author speaks of trade deals between states that seceded. And with California's huge economy they would have no problem setting up beneficial trade deals. There has also been talk of dividing California into 2.

    Of course if California secedes we will have to build the wall a lot longer!

  8. #18
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    As for Wise Monkey and LOLa...I do envy you living in Lollipop Land.

  9. #19
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Call me Vee.

    We HAD a surplus. Fires and CV have wiped it out.

    As a public educator, there are still many schools who provide quality education.

    Actually, the Californians calling for secession are actually two groups of mostly white people, not Hispanics/Latinos. One is a group of very leftist white people who were not happy with the results of the 2016 election. The other group are very right-wing white people who want to secede from California and make a 51st state.

    But I'm going to give you advice that I give all my students, N. Be careful of black and white (all or nothing) thinking. The world is shades of gray. Generalizations made by black and white thinking are what often get us into trouble. There is never going to be any president, government, policy, etc. that is 100% perfect. There will always be pros and cons. And it's important that you evaluate with this in mind and get information from a variety of sources in order to get a full picture.
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  10. #20
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    What you call "conservativsm" is just a basterdised version of liberalism. It's conservatism in name only because it doesn't conserve anything. These "conservatives" are down with everything from gay marriage to abortion and they love to shill for the Oligarchs. It's not surprising because they used to be Marxists before but they can shape shift depending on the situation. So, it won't make a difference if you split your country along these superficial ideological lines.

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