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Thread: America's 2nd Civil War

  1. #21
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollow View Post
    What you call "conservativsm" is just a basterdised version of liberalism. It's conservatism in name only because it doesn't conserve anything. These "conservatives" are down with everything from gay marriage to abortion and they love to shill for the Oligarchs. It's not surprising because they used to be Marxists before but they can shape shift depending on the situation. So, it won't make a difference if you split your country along these superficial ideological lines.
    Which only demonstrates how not even the right would get along. How hard right do people want it? Many more moderate right wingers wouldn't want to see abortion restricted or anything but equality for LGBT+.

    Society moves on and so does the definition of current conservatism. 100 years ago would have looked pretty liberal to Victorian conservatives.

    How broad will the church be? Will the far right with all their racism get on with the centre right? Of course not and despite many voting for the same parties they do so for very different reasons. The left is just the same as we are currently seeing with the Labour party mess.

    Religion is another example. The hardliner won't get on with more moderate members who follow it line by line.

    Let's remember much of it was never big on equality. Plenty of inequality on the left too.
    Last edited by MyNameIsTerry; 14-05-20 at 21:36. Reason: Typo
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  2. #22
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    But Terry isn't Scotland talking about leaving the UK? And didn't the UK just leave the EU? See it's easy to just say oh it could never happen. Are you kidding me? Look around at world history. Look at recent history. Do you really think in a hundred years the world is going to look exactly the same?
    Yes, but I can't see a left right split, N. I could see a change in direction for main politics. The moderates hold the power here.

    I'm not sure if Scotland will go. I think they will be in massive debt if they do and will need the EU to prop them up. But whilst the SNP have gained ground now they were losing it at the previous GE. I'm less aware of Scottish politics but we all know the other parties barely exist up there. And the SNP are very disingenuous wanting it all to be about independence all the time when support might be due to other policies. But the people have given them the mandate for a second vote now and we shall have to see.

    Worth noting that many of Scotland's gripes with Westminster are the same as those of us above the old North South divide. When can we form a new country? But due to the decline of traditional industry across the UK we are left in debt to London who earn the money because we now a services based economy. Something which some London Remainers were mentioning when they said let's separate from the rest.

    The EU again has many factors to it. Some of the arguments against membership are also the fault of Westminster e.g. lack of investment. The EU worsens it with cheap labour and free movement for bosses to set up elsewhere with less hassle. This also happens inside the UK as councils fight over businesses and offer cheap rents and lower wages than others.

    So with the EU it's not just ideology. Some want to see a change in Westminster so that outside of London matters. That means removing the EU too because that gravy train has allowed for laziness in our leaders.

    I do think Northern Island will go though. Unlike Scotland I suspect less on the mainland will bat an eyelid as they feel like Gibraltar to many of us.

    Who knows, maybe it could happen? But I question just how many people in the UK are as fussed as Americans are about this right left battle. I question how many see the dividing line when our politics are more centrist as opposed to when it lurches away. I also think we are more apathetic than you guys.
    Last edited by MyNameIsTerry; 14-05-20 at 21:41.
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  3. #23
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by AntsyVee View Post
    Call me Vee.

    We HAD a surplus. Fires and CV have wiped it out.

    As a public educator, there are still many schools who provide quality education.

    Actually, the Californians calling for secession are actually two groups of mostly white people, not Hispanics/Latinos. One is a group of very leftist white people who were not happy with the results of the 2016 election. The other group are very right-wing white people who want to secede from California and make a 51st state.

    But I'm going to give you advice that I give all my students, N. Be careful of black and white (all or nothing) thinking. The world is shades of gray. Generalizations made by black and white thinking are what often get us into trouble. There is never going to be any president, government, policy, etc. that is 100% perfect. There will always be pros and cons. And it's important that you evaluate with this in mind and get information from a variety of sources in order to get a full picture.
    Vee it is!

    This one's for you!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxAv6ZYzzXc

  4. #24
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    Fair enough PG. Reno blew it on that one big time. But what if you get a thousand Timothy Mcveigh's? Do you think that is not possible? Governments also cave-in as we found out with the USSR. And believe me I'm not advocating for secession I just think it's a pretty good debate. But I also believe that it can happen.
    Only if those thousands of Timothy McVeigh's get backed by another foreign country with military aid. Like when Russia/China backed Vietnam/North Korea or if you like, when the French backed the Thirteen Colonies during the American Revolutionary War. But that's a long, long shot in this modern era, though.

    The 1917 Russian Revolution isn't really a good example compared to the current U.S., because the conditions that caused that was because of overcrowding, destitute living conditions and costly wars. The government back then was different from our own. The peasants and industrial workers were under Imperial rule. So in order for the U.S. to have a Revolution like early 1900's Russia did, those kind of impoverished conditions need to happen first. That's means just about everybody in the U.S. is damn near starving and living in poor conditions with few government officials at the top having a "Let them eat cake" attitude. That's not going to happen so long as capitalism continues and some of the people in the U.S. are living well enough to not care about other people's revolution. Everybody has got to have skin in that scenario and feel the personal impact to want to fight. Too many rich people and people doing well here won't care.

    Look this has always been a popular debate among gun right advocates and Trump supporters that claim it could happen if Trump gets impeached or doesn't get another 4 years in office, but the reality is - unless something like the two above instances happen, I hate to burst your bubble but it's a dream and smack talk at best. There has to be the right conditions in order for it to happen, and although anything is possible and your right, there is always a slim chance it could happen, it won't. Not in this day and age.
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  5. #25
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    Vee it is!

    This one's for you!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxAv6ZYzzXc
    i think that’s the best post I’ve ever gotten from you, N.
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  6. #26
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by PanickyGuy View Post
    Only if those thousands of Timothy McVeigh's get backed by another foreign country with military aid. Like when Russia/China backed Vietnam/North Korea or if you like, when the French backed the Thirteen Colonies during the American Revolutionary War. But that's a long, long shot in this modern era, though.

    The 1917 Russian Revolution isn't really a good example compared to the current U.S., because the conditions that caused that was because of overcrowding, destitute living conditions and costly wars. The government back then was different from our own. The peasants and industrial workers were under Imperial rule. So in order for the U.S. to have a Revolution like early 1900's Russia did, those kind of impoverished conditions need to happen first. That's means just about everybody in the U.S. is damn near starving and living in poor conditions with few government officials at the top having a "Let them eat cake" attitude. That's not going to happen so long as capitalism continues and some of the people in the U.S. are living well enough to not care about other people's revolution. Everybody has got to have skin in that scenario and feel the personal impact to want to fight. Too many rich people and people doing well here won't care.

    Look this has always been a popular debate among gun right advocates and Trump supporters that claim it could happen if Trump gets impeached or doesn't get another 4 years in office, but the reality is - unless something like the two above instances happen, I hate to burst your bubble but it's a dream and smack talk at best. There has to be the right conditions in order for it to happen, and although anything is possible and your right, there is always a slim chance it could happen, it won't. Not in this day and age.
    PG - China didn't back N. Korea. They backed the Communist take over of Korea. The USA stopping them created North and South Korea... thank goodness.

    BTW I don't know a single conservative who's ever mentioned to me that if Trump were to be impeached (which he was but was aquitted) or if he were to lose in November (which I highly doubt) we should try to secede from the nation. I mean even Antsyvee admits it was in large part the lefties that were talking of secession in California after Trump won in 16. And it was the lefties in Quebec who came within an inch of seceding from Canada a few years back. As a matter of fact it was the Democrats in the south that seceded causing the first civil war in the US.

    But back to my original question which has yet to be answered by anyone.

    CUSA or LUSA? Which one would you choose?

  7. #27
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    even Antsyvee
    LOL even me? I didn't know I was that infamous on here But thanks!

    CUSA or LUSA? Which one would you choose?
    Neither. I choose the United Nation-States Under Vee. UNSUV...hmmm... that's kind of long. VeeLand? Vee's Dominion? hmmm, I'm gonna need to work on this...
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  8. #28
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by AntsyVee View Post
    LOL even me? I didn't know I was that infamous on here But thanks!



    Neither. I choose the United Nation-States Under Vee. UNSUV...hmmm... that's kind of long. VeeLand? Vee's Dominion? hmmm, I'm gonna need to work on this...
    Great Veeland

    If we can add a nation that spans centre left and right then I would probably be there. I'm not sure which otherwise, it would depend on how far to each side their society was. If we were talking communist on one and far right capitalist on the other I would rather jump in the sea and get paddling in hope of an island.
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  9. #29
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Regarding the point in the article concerning free trade zones and friendly relations take a look at our divorce from the EU. Messy, endless stalling tactics and tit for tat dummy throwing over breaking agreements.

    I think you would see two warring bitter sides arguing on a foundation of all the old arguments despite being independent.

    You would obviously weakens yourselves which presents the problem of China, the EU, etc who would be looking to throw their weight around trying to the you into red tape that right now you are far too big for. Just as the EU is trying with us right now.
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  10. #30
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    Re: America's 2nd Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    PG - China didn't back N. Korea. They backed the Communist take over of Korea. The USA stopping them created North and South Korea... thank goodness.
    Naw man, you got some of that backwards. Here, look this up...

    The Korean War - was a war between North Korea (with the support of China and the Soviet Union) and South Korea (with the support of the United Nations, principally from the United States). The war began on 25 June 1950 when North Korea invaded South Korea
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

    Unless you are one of those people thinks they are entitled to their own opinions as fact?


    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    BTW I don't know a single conservative who's ever mentioned to me that if Trump were to be impeached (which he was but was aquitted) or if he were to lose in November (which I highly doubt) we should try to secede from the nation. I mean even Antsyvee admits it was in large part the lefties that were talking of secession in California after Trump won in 16. And it was the lefties in Quebec who came within an inch of seceding from Canada a few years back.
    I didn't clarify enough, so this is on me, my bad - no I meant start a civil war or insurrection over the loss of gun rights or if Trump got removed from office or lost this November; which BTW the title of your thread seems to be misleading, if all you are going to be talking about is states seceding. And BTW, I highly doubted Trump would lose in November too, until this virus came along and "F"ed up the economy, but now, I don't know and you don't know for sure either. Because we mostly vote with our wallets and as that old saying goes, money talks and everything else walks. I don't see the economy getting back to the way it was before the virus hit us, by this November, so Trump might be screwed. So don't get your hopes up, is all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    As a matter of fact it was the Democrats in the south that seceded causing the first civil war in the US.
    Dude, come on. That's disingenuous. You know full well those Democrats back then are today's Republicans. They relabeled themselves over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noivous View Post
    But back to my original question which has yet to be answered by anyone.

    CUSA or LUSA? Which one would you choose?
    I'm a Independent, I like things to stay in the middle or moderate. I wouldn't choose either. There are a lot of conservatives out there who want us to go back to the 1950's or even pre-Wilson era. And there are a lot of liberals out there who think we should become European Democratic socialist overnight. But I don't. Sometimes I vote Republican and sometimes I vote Democrat, it just depends on how moderate they are.
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