America's 2nd Civil War

[Noivous]

Actually though since you brought it up I think this impeachment trial is going to be fun. Great theatre. I personally don't think Trump will run again. But either way he's going to be an enormous force to be reckoned with going forward.

[pulisa]

Have you ever had the opportunity to watch any of our PM Question Times, Noivous? They are held on a Wednesday at around midday onwards. That can be great theatre too especially with the guffawing and braying in the background. MPs wanting their few minutes of camera time and looking to make an impression.

I did hear that Trump is a terrible cheat at golf! That takes some skill but I wonder how many people dare to challenge him on his tactics to his face?

[AntsyVee]

@Terry The only time I've really heard of this was when J.K. Rowling made those disparaging remarks against trans women. IMO, as a woman, we are only strengthened by acknowledging the struggle of transgender women. For cisgender and transgender women and intersex women, the challenges stem from the same problem--things associated with femininity are seen as weaker, second-class or inferior. Why is still an insult to call a man gay? Or to say someone does something "like a girl"? Because if it's feminine, it's seen by many as not as good. I think if these feminists that are anti-trans realized that transwomen are actually acknowledging the sexism that they know exists, they would see how it strengthens their cause. Nothing shows that sexism exists better than a person who is treated okay when expressing themselves as a man and is treated poorly when expressing themselves as a woman.

Well, I think if more cisgendered, heterosexual men promoted feminism as a means to achieve gender equality, then it would strengthen victimized mens' positions as well. Too often men are the victims of their own gender's superiority complex. By promoting machismo and anti-feminism (e.g. don't be gay, stiff upper lip, boys don't cry, act like a man), they end up limiting their own gender expression and the crimes against them are not acknowledged.

@ Noivous, I saw that story on CBS. But the Lincoln Project isn't left wing...it's a Republican anti-Trump organization. And you know I voted for Bernie, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

[Fishmanpa]

So Trump's official Defense Team filing misspelled the country!

"To: The Honorable, the Members of the Unites States Senate:"

That's not a good start! ~lol~

FMP

[MyNameIsTerry]

@Terry The only time I've really heard of this was when J.K. Rowling made those disparaging remarks against trans women. IMO, as a woman, we are only strengthened by acknowledging the struggle of transgender women. For cisgender and transgender women and intersex women, the challenges stem from the same problem--things associated with femininity are seen as weaker, second-class or inferior. Why is still an insult to call a man gay? Or to say someone does something "like a girl"? Because if it's feminine, it's seen by many as not as good. I think if these feminists that are anti-trans realized that transwomen are actually acknowledging the sexism that they know exists, they would see how it strengthens their cause. Nothing shows that sexism exists better than a person who is treated okay when expressing themselves as a man and is treated poorly when expressing themselves as a woman.

Well, I think if more cisgendered, heterosexual men promoted feminism as a means to achieve gender equality, then it would strengthen victimized mens' positions as well. Too often men are the victims of their own gender's superiority complex. By promoting machismo and anti-feminism (e.g. don't be gay, stiff upper lip, boys don't cry, act like a man), they end up limiting their own gender expression and the crimes against them are not acknowledged.

@ Noivous, I saw that story on CBS. But the Lincoln Project isn't left wing...it's a Republican anti-Trump organization. And you know I voted for Bernie, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

Vee, if we eliminate all the put downs people just invent more. Another part of human nature to be ar5seholes to each other. Terms for what is seen as weaker or lesser are as you say. You've mentioned toxic masculinity issues, and I can agree with that, but I also wish being a better man wasn't about being something other than male in the process to be honest. There is plenty of toxic feminity too.

But Rowling is a good example of what I was talking about over here. She has been supported by some in raising these views. I don't think assessing risk is a bad thing. But like with immigration over it is a taboo where racist gets thrown about. The issue is safety for all. Trans women could continue to use male facilities and for that they will be at risk of abuse & violence. Men won't mind a woman coming into the men's room but that will not be the same for trans women, that's if they can be identified that way (many won't as your already said).

So protect trans women by letting them into the women's room. But what about women? Again they wontveven know they are trans women but what if they can identity them? Some women feel vulnerable in there. Some still see them as a man (which I disagree with but we can't change that issue easily). What about women who have been assaulted? What of women attacked in those places? They have trauma to deal with.

But we can't say all women & trans women must share facilities and like it.

One of the concerns is self ID. Isn't this one complicated because it's open to abuse? Even the trans community seem at odds over this one as some think it should be a medical certificate. Some have even campaigned against self ID and found themselves a target for online abuse from some that disagree.

This doesn't mean trans women are potential attackers. Doesn't it say male sexual predators could self ID to gain access? So why shouldn't this be identified as a potential risk and security options discussed? I can't see that as a bad thing and surely trans women would want this since it protects women in general including themselves?

It's been some time since I read about Rowling so I can't speak for anything else she might have said beyond my points. But my points are what I see discussed. And due to this issue we have seen TERF vs TRA, 'punch a TERF', etc. Members of the trans community promoting violence shows the abusive nature of the argument. And some of the stuff radical feminists have said are also very bigoted. It's not one way.

Edit: adding an example of both sides of the debate before Rowling. Graham Linehan:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/...-trans-comment

His incorrect usage of pro nouns was either pathetic or transphobic. And his thinly made association to fascism was either in poor taste or part of the same transphobia. But you can also see the other side in the actions of TRAs.

Transphobia at Pride:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8448521.html

[AntsyVee]

There is some toxic femininity, but I think that if we aren't too careful, then the gender equality movement in and of itself will be set back several years.

I wonder why you feel that "being a better man means being something other than male." Being male is how you define it. It won't mean the same to all men. You as a man should have the right to feel and express your masculinity as you see fit. I think one of the goals of the gender equality movement is to get others to realize that gender is a construct that each of us decides upon...it doesn't have to be defined by society for us.

I don't understand why women need protection from transwomen in a bathroom. People are there to do two things; that's it. As long as there are stalls, it should not be an issue. I think we can say that all women, trans or cis, can share facilities and like it. I don't see what the problem is. Most cisgender women and transgender women are all using the same public bathrooms right now as it is.

Again, just because there might be a creeper out there or two who might use fake being transgender to try to be a pervert, those cases are few and far between. I don't think that is something that we need to worry about. When I go into a public bathroom, I'm more worried about someone stealing something out of my purse or not having toilet paper than I am about somebody being a pervert.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Grr I hate typing big posts on small screens with autocorrect. Apologies for various typos above. I'll add a separate reply to your post.

But I've just discovered 2 things about my Samsung J5:

1) it doesn't recognise transphobic.
2) above it substituted trans men for trans women. Tut tut

[NoraB]

Actually though since you brought it up I think this impeachment trial is going to be fun. Great theatre. I personally don't think Trump will run again. But either way he's going to be an enormous force to be reckoned with going forward.

First time round I read 'force' as 'farce'.

[NoraB]

I don't understand why women need protection from transwomen in a bathroom. People are there to do two things; that's it. As long as there are stalls, it should not be an issue. I think we can say that all women, trans or cis, can share facilities and like it. I don't see what the problem is. Most cisgender women and transgender women are all using the same public bathrooms right now as it is.

Three things...

Wee, poo and change into new (bought or nicked) clothes - there are always clothes tags in the cubicles!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Three things...

Wee, poo and change into new (bought or nicked) clothes - there are always clothes tags in the cubicles!

Thinking back to some women I've known...quick fag, line of coke and a possible knee trembler can be added to the list