Outrage over historical films, TV shows, songs, etc.

[MyNameIsTerry]

But why remove the right of Christians and not everyone else? Muslims have no need to celebrate. Did the council make Ramadan secular for the rest?

Speaking of staff I have known in schools it came from the potential for a Christian festival that didn't represent the multicultural make up of the school. Many of the school were Asian children who may be encouraged to take part in activities of another religion. This won't bother many non religious people but it will the religious parents.

So we get a secular event. That's fine but let's have some consistency and do the same to Diwali, Ramadan, Chinese New Year, etc. And why should they be celebrating outside of their religious and cultural events? Doesn't that still signify the need to celebrate a Christian time of the Year?

It ends up being one that twists itself in knots and always upsets someone. But with schools they can simply remove these events and they wouldn't have celebrated those of other cultures before (How do they do this now?) who may have felt marginalised.

What is the answer? Do countries like India take their biggest event of the year and make it secular?

Now I'm twisted in knots But councils should consider the message of removing one and forgetting about making others secular to prevent going to far as pulisa talks about.

[AntsyVee]

See this is where my head starts to spin a bit. I don’t think we need white/black/Asian/Jewish/Christian/Muslim student unions. I’d much prefer just to have student unions for, you know, students.

Isn’t that the best way to include everyone? Stop slapping labels on ourselves that separate us from our fellow human beings?

So there is a debate among sociologists about that has raged for years, that you're touching on here, Gary. They called it the "color blind perspective" versus the "multicultural perspective." The color blindness perspective says that we should just treat everyone the same, no labels, no differences, we say we're a society where these labels shouldn't matter, so let's not use them. The multiculturalism perspective says that society consists of several races, cultures, ethnicities, and many other minority groups, and those differences should be acknowledged to affirm the identities and inclusion of these groups, especially when one culture dominates the societal and political system. Colorblind supporters say if we put it into action, eventually we will get there. Many multiculturalists say that the color blind perspective only exacerbates racism (like this example https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culturally-speaking/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism
This is why many high school and universities are now required ethnic studies courses as a graduation requirement.

Personally, I think society has to grow the hell up. Racism is a petty, ugly disease and while it should never be ignored, it should never be used to explain away absolutely everything. Pulisa is right, it gets to a point where an accusation of racism starts to lose meaning due to the amount of times it’s used.

I think people use racism as a catch-all sometimes for all forms of prejudices and privileges that they don't know how else to express. Now I'm just speaking for American society here (as I don't live in the UK) but I see areas ones that can make some big differences in people's lives. They're all areas we're born into, not things we earn, that for some give opportunity and privilege (this is where the term white privilege comes from) and for others mean challenges or discrimination.

Citizenship--being born in the US gives you opportunities others don't have.
Class--being born with wealth can help you get better health care, education, safety and future opportunities
Ability--by being born able-bodied, your life doesn't have to be planned around your handicap
Sex--by being born male, you may be able to go places or participate in activities restricted for females. You statistically have less of a chance of being impacted by sexual assault.
Sexual Orientation--if you're born straight, then you get a lot more protections from the law. Statistically you're more likely to be accepted by your community.
Gender--if you're cisgender (meaning you agree with the gender you were assigned with at birth) you're much more accepted by your community. You don't usually have to worry about being denied access to the locker room or bathroom of your choice.
Religion--if you're a protestant Christian, you're much more likely in the US to see community events that reflect your beliefs, you're less likely to have to take off work for your holidays or explain to people what your beliefs are

And then there's race. People argue what the privileges of being white are, but here are the big ones I see: if you're white, when you learn about history, you're showed that your people were the major contributors. If you're white, you're more likely to see people on TV and in movies that look like you. If you're white, and a cop pulls your over, generally you can be assured that the outcome of that encounter wasn't based on the color of your skin.

The thing is there is a lot of intersectionality, and everything on this list must be taken into consideration. You could have poor white cisgender female that grew in a trailer without running water in West Virginia. This person may not believe that white privilege exists because they're poor; they were probably picked on at school because of it. Being poor, and female, they were more likely to be a victim of sexual assault. They may not have had anyone successful or educated in their family as a role model. All their relatives compensated with drugs and alcohol. So when you tell this lady that there's racism and she has white privilege, she probably wants to tell you to F off.

But the thing is, she does have some privileges. She's cisgender; she's given access to opportunities because she's a citizen; she's able-bodied; and she's white, so chances are that her race didn't deny her opportunities.

And this is how I think we need to thing about things. Like you said Gary, there are people who just lump every problem under racism, and in truth, we all have privileges and disadvantages based on what categories we were born into.

Sorry for all the reading material LOL

[MyNameIsTerry]

But is one argument that by stating even the poorest of white people that they have a privilege over someone who is black that we create a mentality that black always means worst off? Surely that can't be the case? Surely there are a combination of factors that add up to determine who is worst off? For instance, would I rather have some privileges and be black e.g. able bodied & well, financial sound family, decent education, etc or have white privilege but be born with serious health issues?

When we consider some of those other factors doesn't it start to get very complicated? You could be black but rich. Does white privilege cancel out all of the other privileges?

So going back to your example of the white woman who grew up poor and was abused I find it hard to look at how that is somehow better than being black with a more stable life. Both experience traumatic events in there life but the impact of them surely has to be judged?

This is something I think causes problems. Obviously there is always a spectrum of beliefs about this within any group so I am careful in separating less reasonable arguments (the harder end of scales who won't consider the above factors) and maybe this is what is being lost? It's not about comparison but lifting people up to equality. But do some wear the badge to justify internal problems that need resolution due to their life experiences or ignorance?

[AntsyVee]

I'm not saying the white woman has a better life than the black man. You understood what I was saying, Terry. I was trying to point out exactly what you said; you have to consider the other factors. It is very complicated.

I was also trying to explain that for people who don't think about it this way, sometimes they just lump everything under "racism".

I don't think white privilege cancels out any other privileges. It's just one of many. In certain times in history and maybe in some places over others, it has weighed more. But as a light-skinned person myself, I have white privilege most of the time. I was just trying to explain how things have come to be.

[MyNameIsTerry]

You make a good point, Terry. Each country has their own usages and media or products that are controversial. As for me, I approve of the contextualization being added to Gone with the Wind and the changing of Aunt Jemima syrup. The Mr. Brain's Faggots, I could see how people in your country would want it changed, but that is ultimately a UK thing.



I think maybe the idea was to have festival where everyone would feel welcome, regardless of belief. Instead having separate religious functions, there could be one secular function.

I must admit anyone sticking Mr Brains on a good product just makes me see a can of brains!

Maybe. I confess to needing a refresher on that incident but we have had problems with swings as pulisa has mentioned. Some organisations went from racism to fear of being labelled. This caused problems in communities and our on going court cases have revealed how this can be taken advantage of by the worst.

I'm skeptical of authorities doing this. Recently we even had a case of positive discrimination where the white recruit won in court but only because his father was also employed by the same authority and had seen written evidence of candidate selection. Any discrimination being illegal.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I'm not saying the white woman has a better life than the black man. You understood what I was saying, Terry. I was trying to point out exactly what you said; you have to consider the other factors. It is very complicated.

I was also trying to explain that for people who don't think about it this way, sometimes they just lump everything under "racism".

I don't think white privilege cancels out any other privileges. It's just one of many. In certain times in history and maybe in some places over others, it has weighed more. But as a light-skinned person myself, I have white privilege most of the time. I was just trying to explain how things have come to be.

Vee, sorry if that came across as implying you were stating that. It wasn't my intention. But I posed it because I often question what others believe. I suspect some do feel that way.

It's another reason I've asked about representation in the past. These movements cover minorities but as an outsider I wonder whether they do? Within any group there are always subgroups who feel their cause is more important, more urgent or in greatest need.

Just looking at the LGBT+ arguments demonstrates this. It's sad to see Pride be marred by tension between groups, and they seem more to the fringes of their subgroups, because one group believes their change outweighs another. Going back to that radfem discussion earlier it's ugly between them and some transgender activists. And ugly between gay women and transgender activists.

So the leaders of a movement such as the BLM have a difficult job in moving us all forward into more equality without some of the behaviour we are seeing in the streets. Those types might include those less willing to accept the complexity you raised?

[AntsyVee]

You're fine, Terry. Yeah, I dunno Terry how things will move forward. And here in the US, sometimes it depends on what state you live in to what route things take. But obviously I'm a firm believer in education and communication. I think the more we educate ourselves and the more we talk about the difficult things, the better it will get. People offend each other and they just shut down. The conversation has to keep going. If you talk to someone long enough, you usually see what you have in common more than what differences you have.

[BlueIris]

One of my favourite ever quotes is from Abe Lincoln: "I do not like this man. I must get to know him better."

Communication lets us discover what we share; it breaks down barriers because it removes the fear of the unknown. We as anxiety sufferers should be more aware than most that the worst fears are the ones you don't ever confront.

[AntsyVee]

You know, I was just thinking, Terry, that one thing I should point out about those environmental factors that I listed, is that some are obvious and some are not. This obviousness also makes a big deal about their impact.

For example, I'm Jewish, but unless I'm wearing my Star of David or parading down the street in my ugly Chanukah sweater, no one knows I'm Jewish until I open my mouth. But if I'm black or if I'm in a wheelchair, I can't hide those things.

[Gary A]

I think the example of “colour blinded thinking” in the article you linked ends up going around in a bit of a circle. It somehow reaches the conclusion that a society that does not judge people on the colour of their skin will end up ignoring racism. The point they’re missing is that a society that does not judge people based on skin colour won’t be racist in the first place, so what’s to ignore?

We keep hearing that racism is learned behaviour so if it’s learned, let’s try and change it. Nobody said that we can’t acknowledge differences in appearances, but in the same way someone has a different hair colour or whatever.

Far too much attention is placed on race. White people are constantly told that they are “privileged” and almost racist by default. Black people are told that they will struggle due to constant oppression from those with a different colour of skin. For me, all that does is create a self fulfilling prophecy.

White kids will grow up believing they’re privileged and either walk around feeling superior to black people, or live their lives riddled with guilt. Black people will believe that every failing in their life is down to white oppression, and will either allow that idea to stop them from pushing themselves or they’ll lash out.

Literally nothing good can come from this idea of white privilege and black oppression, it just cements the idea that we are different and puts a whole load of negative stereotypes into action.