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  1. #1
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    Exercise and anxiety

    I'm not sure if this belongs in the therapy section or not, admin please feel free to move it if required.

    OK since the beginning of the Covid19 crisis I've been hammering away at the exercise bike that had previously been gathering dust and spiders in the garden shed. Inspired to get fitter largely due to reading about the links between obesity and Covid prognosis, I've been at it on a regular basis. In fact as I type this, I'd say I'm probably fitter now than I have been in years. At least leg-wise and cardiovascular but I've yet to do much upper body work. I've started some this evening with a 12lb bottle of water. I've also lost significant weight from where I was this time 2 years ago, nudging 5 stones. The bulk of this loss has been over a longer period through regular walking, the more recent exercise bike has accelerated it. However in the last 2 weeks I've plateaued at 18st 3lb. This is despite keeping below the recommended 2154 calories per day that my app has put in place.

    So my first question would be how to break through this plateau. Would increasing the duration of exercise do it? Or intensity? I've read about more resistance exercise which made me think about the water bottle. Then again I read too that stress affects cortisol that restricts belly fat loss, and my anxiety has been up and running the last few weeks. Coincidence?

    Also does exercise have any therapeutic effect regarding anxiety? My own experience would suggest not, I feel much fitter but the anxiety is still very much there. Clearly though there are too many multiple dynamics involved to answer so simplistic a question.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    First of all, kudos for the weight loss. It ain't easy to change habits!

    The answer to this is multi faceted tbh and can be dependant to many things.

    In terms of exercise for weight loss, the first question would be what is the time and intensity you are putting into your bike work? There comes a point of limited return as your metabolism will adapt to your new output.

    In terms of diet, this isn't as simple as calories in/out either, for similar reasons. As you lose weight, you start to need less calories. It also depends on what you're eating and when. It's become common for the last few decades for the general advice to be to eat little and often, but more recently it's been found that this is a terrible idea, especially in terms of weight gain.

    Resistance training is one great way to boost fat burning simply because more muscle = more calories used, but in reality actual muscle building gets much harder as we get older so to build any real muscle will take big effort, and can result in an over stimulated CNS for anxiety suffers. It's not that it's a bad idea, it's just not worth relying on solely, rather as an addition to what you're already doing.

    Yes, cortisol will play a role in making it more difficult to lose weight, but it's not going to prevent it completely.

    Investigating the type of food you eat and the time you eat it is a good place to start I think.

  3. #3
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    I used to ride 10km every morning before work and felt great for the day but since my heart attack in 2015 my anxiety has stopped me from riding.
    I know you've had 2 FM.
    How do you find exercising after that?
    I had 1 stent.
    Thanks in advance.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    Cortisol may be an issue because studies have found it linked to 'trunk fat'. So you might find more around your face, pecs, abs, etc. But it's not a block on getting beyond there since many anxiety sufferers are in gym shape (some on here for a start).

    As Joe says, it's harder to build muscle as we are since our testosterone levels drop. However many men put on plenty in middle age. It will likely take longer since you don't have the hormone levels of a 20 year old. But that's about peak and you would get the same issue in your thirties but just to a lesser extent.

    Are you considering adding weight as a cardio thing? If so you getting into something similar to kettlebell training which makes you stronger as well as fitter. Unlike aiming for strength, or optimum muscle building, you aren't doing a heavy workout aimed at something like gains in size or power. They can be great for weight loss too since not only do you gain more muscle to burn more calories but your body has to respond to the stress to build them which takes a lot of calories.

    So if you are going more for a strength plus cardio approach you won't get the big gains but what you will do is force your body to increase what it is using. That will mean burning more calories and also after you stop as some muscle building action will be taking place. Cardio is more about burning whilst exercising, adding weight increases the need to build more muscle to cope with the increased demand.

    With the bike why not consider HIIT training? It's as basic as sprint then peddle moderately then repeat. The sprint is shorter. This method of training emerged from the training performed by athletes who compete in sprints. But you can do it all sorts of ways since you just increase the effort, reduce, repeat. It's much more intensive than stopping to rest between sprints and the moderate 'rest' keeps the body working.

    If you were weight training you can do things like HIIT but basing it around the weight. But in weight training there are other ways to keep the pressure on e.g. supersets, volume training, etc.

    Cortisol is weight training can be a problem if you do more than 60 minutes. It spikes at this point. But I think this one is complicated with us as our baselines and peaks are possibly higher or worse. You are going to know if you overdo it but given your current level of exercise you have a good base to work from.

    As for whether it helps I think this is also complicated & individual. It can, the science says so. But what if like me you struggle with physical sensations, had some of your memorable panics as a result of workouts and struggle with the natural aches & pains of exercise? This is where I think you treat it like any other fear and you exposure yourself to gain confidence. You'll learn it can't hurt you but like any exposure work it can be a mix of "yes, I can do It!" and "oh no, now I feel bad, what is this, will it happen again?"

    Then there is the question of whether it helps your anxiety disorder decrease. The science is positive and you will only add to your confidence and self worth through it. Looking at it as a cure though is less positive although it's always a possibility. But you aren't doing this so anyway so you will only gain in the positives.

    So, does exercise cause issues with your anxiety? My therapist had me doing sprints and watching my body until I learned it wasn't going to kill me just because my breathing increased. Surprisingly I learnt it quite quickly.

    You have done really well so far. That's a lot of weight to lose. Also don't forget that whilst you may be carrying extra weight your cardiovascular system can be healthier than someone who is slim yet gets little exercise. Your lung capacity will have increased. Plus you will have hardened your body to stress in general which is a very good thing.

    Have you also looked at what you are eating? I know we all talked about this on another thread. If you can sub some less healthy stuff for more protein to keep you full longer or replace some sugar it will only be helpful.

    It is frustrating. Since being diagnosed with hypertension I've lost about 15-20 pounds whilst gaining at least a stone in muscle. The muscle didn't come quick bit in over a year I am much bigger everywhere. I really need to get back into weight training but, and you're a gardener so you will fully understand this, I've done a lot of manual labouring for my dad. Anything he's needed doing, I've done. I've also done it the hard way and removed most work with machines. Many times he's asked why do it the long way and I've said it's good exercise for me.

    So, I've done plenty of heavy lifting of tubs of soil (want to make it much heavier? Fill it with water instead), been doing lots of digging, plenty of sawing and carrying wood/rubble/rocks. To help out someone I know with a coal fire during lockdown I got myself along one of the A roads collecting, lugging and sawing up a few of 40lb sacks at a time then carrying them home half a mile.

    That's all working for me along with a good amount of protein. I've found spreading that over the day in smaller batches works best for me rather than large amounts in fewer hits.

    I've knocked off over 3 inches around the waist and added some inches around each of my chest (2), arms (1.5) and legs (3). Still a way to go but I'm in a plateau too so it's more cardio and proper weight training for me from here.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    The bit that gets me is when I had the attack I broke out in a severe sweat.
    Ever since sweating freaks me.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    Hi folks, I've been meaning to respond to your very helpful posts but life has got in the way in the form of car trouble. Happily I can say its all resolved now, the exhaust was blocked with all sorts of debris, causing fumes to back-up into the engine and leading to performance issues. I really hate car repair shops with their macho atmospheres where I feel it vitally important to hide any suspicion they may have that I'm 'odd'.

    Anyway, Phill I think you're getting me mixed up with fishmanpa. I've no heart issues that I'm aware of though that can change of course. Joe and Terry, your answers are comprehensive and I might well print them out, and thank you both for your kind words. I'm 6ft 3 and quite big boned so can probably get away with carrying some weight, at least to a degree but being 23st or so I just had to take action. But yes anxiety can be triggered when I exercise, I suppose its stimulation of any kind that feels the same but has its origins elsewhere. An example is jelly legs after riding the exercise bike, however this has disappeared in the last month or so and can only put it down to increased leg muscle. That said I still exercise when I think we have nobody calling, with the lockdown and restricted visiting that's proven helpful.

    Joe, I time myself at a minimum of 20 minutes on the bike though its normally higher and up to 30 mins. I start with a low setting on the resistance dial and then gradually increase until I'm pedalling up what feels like a steep hill. When I started in March I couldn't even move the pedals on the highest setting, now I can manage it quite well and don't get the jelly legs. This I do every other day, I did buy a bike in April but found it a less intensive ride.

    I'm using a calorie counting app called Nutracheck. You just enter whatever you eat and it gives you the calorie content. The app does all the maths and tells you what you have left in a 24 hour period. I start the day with porridge, then lunch is normally fruit (apple, orange, banana). Dinner is normally no-added sugar baked beans on two slices of toast (wholemeal) and probably a tin of tuna. Then in the evening have a bag of mixed salad especially rocket, spinach and watercress. Sometimes mixed nuts and more fruit.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post

    I'm using a calorie counting app called Nutracheck. You just enter whatever you eat and it gives you the calorie content. The app does all the maths and tells you what you have left in a 24 hour period. I start the day with porridge, then lunch is normally fruit (apple, orange, banana). Dinner is normally no-added sugar baked beans on two slices of toast (wholemeal) and probably a tin of tuna. Then in the evening have a bag of mixed salad especially rocket, spinach and watercress. Sometimes mixed nuts and more fruit.
    What's your eating window? When do you start eating in the day, and when do you stop?

  8. #8
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    Quote Originally Posted by ankietyjoe View Post
    What's your eating window? When do you start eating in the day, and when do you stop?
    OK Joe, porridge I have for breakfast, 100 grams with milk, no sugar. That's normally 8 or so in the morning. The lunch is, well lunchtime? Dinner is 6ish and any calories I have left over I can use up or let go. But I've cut out all food in between, that's where I was going wrong. Today we had a Chinese takeaway that has blown the calories into orbit so will start again tomorrow.

    The big challenge is keeping to this when life gets rough and with a wife who has so many ailments, the rough outweighs the smooth. Wired, you've done brilliantly, well done on sticking with it. I do agree that exercise has a limited benefit as regards mental health. If there is some, its directly after vigorous exercise with me, but temporary. If there is some external factor causing anxiety then that hasn't magically vanished because I've worked out.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post
    The big challenge is keeping to this when life gets rough and with a wife who has so many ailments
    Just focus on getting your exercise in. Diets and change in food habbits are hard. A lot of people slip up and think "omg I failed there's no point in doing this". That's just perspective. In reality exercising daily, and eating what you want is better than failing and giving up on exercise.

    Give yourself 30 minutes a day, you deserve that even if you have other issues in life to attend to.

    There's no need to start again. You're on the journey. Sometimes you fall over. Sometimes you think you've fell over even when you haven't. Keep the focus on the exercise and less on the food (unless medical advice differs). My brother has done keto so many times I've lost count. He'll then quickly slip backwards and give up on the gym. It's a constant cycle for him and I've tried with all my might to give him the advice I learned in prison.

    You know, in prison they have a football team (and a rugby team in another). The players are offered no special treatment for playing in the team except they get to train. No special food, or no extra food. You're limited to prison garbage (and it really was that; except on Saturdays we had a fried breakfast which was amazing. If you smoked you got to trade a cigarette for an entire breakfast).

    But, these folks who played on the pitch against real outside teams were fit. Their endurance was that of Sunday league players. Pretty fit. A handful were lifers been in jail a very long time. Their physique and endurance was peak. And that taught me one thing ... the majority of it is in your brain. Locked in a tiny cell for 23 hours a day with limited (if any) gym access. You make do with what you have and most of it is body weight.

    Tuna, sardines and noodles were available on the cantine. We'd mix them together and get them down. They provided protein and calories.

    I have zero focus on food anymore. I let the science keep talking; but what I've seen with my own eyes contradicts science.

    Rambling on now sorry. Just keep going.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Exercise and anxiety

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post
    OK Joe, porridge I have for breakfast, 100 grams with milk, no sugar. That's normally 8 or so in the morning. The lunch is, well lunchtime? Dinner is 6ish and any calories I have left over I can use up or let go. But I've cut out all food in between, that's where I was going wrong. Today we had a Chinese takeaway that has blown the calories into orbit so will start again tomorrow.

    The big challenge is keeping to this when life gets rough and with a wife who has so many ailments, the rough outweighs the smooth. Wired, you've done brilliantly, well done on sticking with it. I do agree that exercise has a limited benefit as regards mental health. If there is some, its directly after vigorous exercise with me, but temporary. If there is some external factor causing anxiety then that hasn't magically vanished because I've worked out.

    Don't underestimate just how stressful it is living with somebody who's not well. My partner also has significant health issues (mental health) and the stress is unreal sometimes. Pulisa gets this too. Exercise is going to be benefiting you both physically and mentally, but it's not a magic bullet to negate long term, low level stress. It's just one ingredient.

    In terms of eating, my observation is that you're eating very high carb all day long. Losing weight is as much about reducing insulin as it is sticking to calorie levels. The key for you is probably reducing your eating window. For example I (and others here) will often fast for 16-18 hours per day, meaning that you are operating in an almost zero insulin state. There is plenty of information on the internet about this, but as long as insulin is present in your system, your body won't let go of fat. The flip side of this is that if you're consuming carbs all day (cereal, porridge, toast, fruit etc) you're triggering insulin all day and therefore your body takes energy directly from the food you're eating rather than your stored energy (fat).

    It's not that you're doing anything wrong, it's just that we have been given the 'eat little and often' mantra for decades, and it's not actually very good for us. It's a marketing line, not a health tip.

    I would suggest trying to skip breakfast and just eat lunch and dinner for a week and see what happens. Keep your eating window to 8 hours a day, and try and lower the amount of carbs you're eating. Despite having health benefits, fruit triggers insulin a lot. Replace it with protein and/or fat where you can. For example, start your day with scrambled egg, avocado and a couple of bits of bacon.

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