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Thread: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

  1. #81
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Maybe it’s all me and my voodoo dolls...
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  2. #82
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by WiredIncorrectly View Post
    Next article for my blog "How to argue constructively". This one will require some learning and self introspection
    Would that book also be titled 'The definition of Irony'?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    That's quite a reaction Joe..

    I'm responding to your own words on a thread where you've stated that 'there ain't no God' and you've given me non-paranormal theories on my experiences - which I have clearly said that I appreciate. Food for thought and all that. If I've misinterpreted your comments then I apologise, but I have to say that I'm surprised you've backed out of what could have been a decent debate. However, your call and all that.
    It's not really an overreaction on my part, and I sincerely mean no hard feelings.

    I'll elaborate a bit -

    My perception is that you think I don't see ghosts because I'm not in tune with them, that i'm blinded by science, that I'm not open to the unexplained. It's simply not the case, and having made the point myself several times we cannot have a discussion or debate about this because the platform it is based on is already biased.

    To put it as simply as possible, I believe (know) that anything paranormal has an explanation that could be described by a scientific process, but that perhaps doesn't make it any less paranormal to the person experiencing it. You don't

  3. #83
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    Of course, but I'm talking about the paranormal which by definition means impossible to explain by science.

    However, there have been (and continue to be) many experiments conducted by prominent scientists - many of whom have accepted that there is an afterlife after investigating the evidence for it.
    Most interesting. Can you tell me which experiments these were and which scientists carried them out? I’m sure if there were scientifically validated evidence of an afterlife then it would be front page news across the globe.

    If something is impossible to explain by science then it’s untestable and therefore might as well not exist. If I told you there were an Invisible Pink Incorporeal Unicorn that only I could see living in my bathroom, you’d want proof of that wouldn’t you? However, there’s no way for me to prove it, as it’s invisible, incorporeal and only I can see it, and no way for you to disprove it so it’s basically just a story at that point. It’s not testable, can’t be explained by science, so I guess that would be labelled “paranormal” as well? However, by slapping that label on it have I now made my claim more valid? Of course I haven’t.

    As for your experience, I’m not about to sit and tell you that it didn’t happen or that your perception is wrong. What I will say is that it’s far more likely that you had a dream, hallucination or that you were just plain mistaken than it is that the literal spirit of a dead relative came to visit you. In the absence of any testable evidence, the various other explanations of what might have actually happened and the fact that your claim is completely untestable, for me it’s just a story.

    That’s what a sceptic does, looks for testable real life evidence. After my grandad died in 2009, I spent weeks swearing that I could hear his voice when I put my bedroom lights out. For me, it’s more likely that because he’d recently died I was thinking about him a lot, I was grieving and perhaps just wanting to hear his voice so much that my brain played a trick on me. Again, it’s just far more likely than it being the ghost of my dead grandad actually talking to me.

  4. #84
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    "However, there have been (and continue to be) many experiments conducted by prominent scientists - many of whom have accepted that there is an afterlife after investigating the evidence for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A View Post
    Most interesting. Can you tell me which experiments these were and which scientists carried them out? I’m sure if there were scientifically validated evidence of an afterlife then it would be front page news across the globe.

    Off the top of my head - take the recent AWARE study (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) - Sam Parnia (Professor of Medicine aka scientific dude) but maybe you should read what I wrote again because I clearly said many prominent scientists have accepted the afterlife based on the EVIDENCE for it.

    Afterlife evidence makes newspaper stories, but not the headlines. You bet your arse that the papers would have a field day if science was to unequivocally prove that the afterlife is real, but even then, certain 'sceptics' (and their ever-moving goalposts) would still try to debunk it!

    The problem is with trying to scientifically measure something that is spontaneous in nature but in order to get a 'hit' visual targets have to be reported. Hits as in, being able to see an object that's been purposely placed on a high level shelf that is not visible from any other perspective other than high up. The fact that some people who took part in the study were able to describe what was happening to them, or things going on in other parts of the hospital while they had no brain activity - doesn't count as proof, so it's a miss, but it does count as evidence - and one NDE in the study was validated.
    Then again, if you do read the papers you might have seen the story where a top NASA scientist believed in the afterlife? This bloke was a highly intelligent scientist and he believed in the afterlife.

    Or how about Dr Eban Alexander who is a neurosurgeon who 'knew' that the soul is 'really the result of brain chemistry' - that's until he had a near death experience while he was in a deep coma. Even as a believer, I find his story a little 'out there' but the dude is as scientific as it gets and he is totally sold on the afterlife because of his experience. This is very much one of those cases I've talked about where experience trumps science because it blew apart everything he'd known to be true.

    If I told you there were an Invisible Pink Incorporeal Unicorn that only I could see living in my bathroom, you’d want proof of that wouldn’t you?
    Gary, nobody is talking about unicorns - pink or otherwise. This is one of the most trawled out sceptic 'arguments' and it's ridiculous. I saw a human form standing at the bottom of our stairs, not My Little Pony!

    Actually, pink unicorns DO exist and you can buy them for £20 on Amazon!

    As for your experience, I’m not about to sit and tell you that it didn’t happen or that your perception is wrong.
    Waaaaaaaait for it.....

    What I will say is that it’s far more likely that you had a dream, hallucination or that you were just plain mistaken than it is that the literal spirit of a dead relative came to visit you.
    There it is!

    You are suggesting that it didn't happen, or that my perception is wrong - even though you weren't there and you don't know me.

    In the absence of any testable evidence, the various other explanations of what might have actually happened and the fact that your claim is completely untestable, for me it’s just a story.
    To you, and everybody else, they are anecdotes - yes. Of course they are, as are other people's experiences to me. The difference is that I don't dismiss people's experiences as psychotic episodes or hallucinations.

    If evidence counts for something in a court of law, then it does elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.

    After my grandad died in 2009, I spent weeks swearing that I could hear his voice when I put my bedroom lights out. For me, it’s more likely that because he’d recently died I was thinking about him a lot, I was grieving and perhaps just wanting to hear his voice so much that my brain played a trick on me. Again, it’s just far more likely than it being the ghost of my dead grandad actually talking to me.
    People who have paranormal experiences are generally in no doubt that what they've experienced was real, so I'm inclined to agree with you on that basis, but, who knows?

    I'd be interested in the words that you heard, though...

    "Again, it’s just far more likely than it being the ghost of my dead grandad actually talking to me."

    And this is why I'd be interested to know what he 'said' because there is a difference between your mind playing tricks on you and meaningful communication.

    In all my experiences, I've only ever heard one voice - and it wasn't one I recognised - but it ordered me to slow down when I was in my car and seconds later a lorry pulled out on me. Had I have carried on at the speed I was going - I would have smashed into it. As it was, slowing down gave me time to react. I heard a voice - loud and clear - and for no apparent reason. (good weather - visibility etc) Psychotic episode? I don't think so, but give me a theory as to why I heard this voice seconds before I was about to slam into a lorry - but not before that day, and not since?
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  5. #85
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    Off the top of my head - take the recent AWARE study (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) - Sam Parnia (Professor of Medicine aka scientific dude) but maybe you should read what I wrote again because I clearly said many prominent scientists have accepted the afterlife based on the EVIDENCE for it.
    I don’t care what they accept, I care about what they can prove. Just writing “EVIDENCE” in block capitals doesn’t make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    [Afterlife evidence makes newspaper stories, but not the headlines. You bet your arse that the papers would have a field day if science was to unequivocally prove that the afterlife is real, but even then, certain 'sceptics' (and their ever-moving goalposts) would still try to debunk it!
    What’s wrong with that? The more a theory stands up to scrutiny the closer it gets to being fact. If you’re worried about it being tested and scrutinised then it must be a pretty flimsy argument in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    The problem is with trying to scientifically measure something that is spontaneous in nature but in order to get a 'hit' visual targets have to be reported. Hits as in, being able to see an object that's been purposely placed on a high level shelf that is not visible from any other perspective other than high up. The fact that some people who took part in the study were able to describe what was happening to them, or things going on in other parts of the hospital while they had no brain activity - doesn't count as proof, so it's a miss, but it does count as evidence - and one NDE in the study was validated.
    Then again, if you do read the papers you might have seen the story where a top NASA scientist believed in the afterlife? This bloke was a highly intelligent scientist and he believed in the afterlife.
    Again, I don’t care what he believed, I care what he can prove. If we’re just going to make it a game of appealing to argument from authority then I’m fairly certain I’ve got the weight of the vast majority of scientists batting my corner. Of course there are scientists who believe in the afterlife. Look hard enough I’m sure there’ll be scientists who believe Elvis is still alive or that the moon landings were filmed in a studio. Again, believing is one thing, proving is quite another.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    how about Dr Eban Alexander who is a neurosurgeon who 'knew' that the soul is 'really the result of brain chemistry' - that's until he had a near death experience while he was in a deep coma. Even as a believer, I find his story a little 'out there' but the dude is as scientific as it gets and he is totally sold on the afterlife because of his experience. This is very much one of those cases I've talked about where experience trumps science because it blew apart everything he'd known to be true.
    Good for him. It still proves absolutely nothing and is once again just appealing to authority. The guy was in a coma and nearly died, perhaps you’re not so wrong in that experience made him turn against science, but perhaps that’s more to do with the nature of his experience, ie his life almost ending, rather than how much of a place it had in the realms of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    Gary, nobody is talking about unicorns - pink or otherwise. This is one of the most trawled out sceptic 'arguments' and it's ridiculous. I saw a human form standing at the bottom of our stairs, not My Little Pony!
    I’m sorry but the only ridiculous argument here is yours. What does it matter if it’s a pink unicorn, the tooth fairy, a giant marshmallow ninja that only eats gummy bears or an apparent “human form”? They’re all untestable stories and they all have the same evidence of actually being real. Namely, zero. I think it’s ironic that I’m apparently the closed minded sceptic yet rather than try to explore other explanations for your “experience“ you’ve leapt right on it being proof of the afterlife. I don’t think it would matter at all what evidence or other possibility was provided to you on the contrary, you’ve made your mind up and that’s that, apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    You are suggesting that it didn't happen, or that my perception is wrong - even though you weren't there and you don't know me.
    I’m suggesting that’s it’s far more likely that either it didn’t happen or your perception is wrong. I’m suggesting either of those are far more likely than you literally seeing the spirit of a dead relative. Is that an outrageous statement, somehow? It’s got nothing to do with knowing you, it’s just that you’re a human being with a brain that can deceive them very easily. Do I honestly need to say that given the forum that we’re having this discussion on. Look around you, folks brains are playing tricks on them every day around here.


    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    To you, and everybody else, they are anecdotes - yes. Of course they are, as are other people's experiences to me. The difference is that I don't dismiss people's experiences as psychotic episodes or hallucinations.
    Nor do I, but what I do actually do is at least explore the more rational possibilities before I leap to the “OMG that’s evidence of the afterlife” conclusion based on nothing more than an unverifiable story.

  6. #86
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    I would just like to add that the Mother of my children had a near death experience (like...seconds from death) during the birth of our youngest. I was there, watching it. She was talking absolute nonsense as they wheeled her into the operating theatre and later relayed the experiences she was having at the time, none of which was actually happening.

    She now lives with a condition that forces her brain to re-live situations, create alternate realities, identities and even people inside her head. To her, every single microsecond of it is real. She's not able to differentiate what her brain is telling her is happening, and what is actually happening. It's not like a dream to her that she wakes up from, she is there, it is happening.

    The brain is MORE than capable of making your conscious mind absolutely, 100% believe something is happening that isn't happening. Period. That's all there is to it.

  7. #87
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    I'm no expert on this subject but do find it fascinating. I also probably lean towards the scientific explanations, but that's only based on my personal experiences. I've never had any kind of supernatural event either, or witnessed one. But I do know people who have. One chap I knew who has since died was in the army. It was a hot summer's day and he and his fellow soldiers were relaxing in their barracks. There were three or four had set up a ouija board and were doing whatever you do with one of those, when all the windows, which were open due to the heat, slammed shut.

    Now either 1 - he's a liar 2 - he thinks it happened but it did only in his brain 3 - it was some kind of freak weather or 4 - something unexplainable. I can think of lots of similar stories and think that its important to keep an open mind.

    That said, as anxiety people we all know about the power of suggestion. Two years ago during an obsession that I had heart disease, I had googled symptoms of which one was extreme tiredness. The following morning on a trip to our local Asda, I had to leave the trolley and return to the car because I felt so tired. Subsequent ECGs and blood tests etc at our hospital's cardio unit showed no sign of heart problems. My symptoms vanished and I've never had them since. But at the time it was so real. This example is just one of anxiety's many tricks of course.

    Derren Brown knows all about suggestion because he's made a career from it.
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  8. #88
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Could have been an 'act of beans', Fishman

    The thing is science changes. If the answer is it can't prove or disprove a later study may do so. Therefore you are left to belief. Or scepticism, something which I tend to view as a form of belief in its own. Two sides of the same coin: the firm believer and the hard sceptic. Both are butting heads using similar points. Can't that be seen in the above posts alone?
    Last edited by MyNameIsTerry; 01-12-20 at 17:32. Reason: Typo
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Does it actually matter if there is a "right" or a "wrong" answer to this when belief is such a comfort and harms no one?

  10. #90
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by pulisa View Post
    Does it actually matter if there is a "right" or a "wrong" answer to this when belief is such a comfort and harms no one?
    When people disregard science as just an 'opinion', it kinda does matter. Especially in the current global climate.

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